The Death of Belkar

[Precure]

Without the prophecy, there is the possibility that he can run away instead of facing Xykon and returning to the prison, and Roy would be responsible for every evil deed he might commit, because he let him free.

[Peelee]

Without the prophecy, there is the possibility that he can run away instead of facing Xykon and returning to the prison, and Roy would be responsible for every evil deed he might commit, because he let him free.

Notwithstanding that i disagree with your conclusion, that was the case when Roy tore up the contracts. Before then, too, really.

And yet.

[Precure]

Notwithstanding that i disagree with your conclusion, that was the case when Roy tore up the contracts. Before then too. And yet...

That's why Mark of Justice was there in the first place.

Before then he wasn't responsible for Belkar's freedom.

[Mic_128]

Without the prophecy, there is the possibility that he can run away instead of facing Xykon and returning to the prison

Except that

1. Belkar knows that if he skips the fight, Xykon could win, and then the gods blow up the planet.

2. We've seen him seem actually willing to surrender himself to prison, and outright confused as to how nice the conversation about it went, both from the paladins and Belkar himself. I don't see him running, prophesy or not.

[Precure]

Even if it's true, Roy don't have that kind of trust of him.

[Gurgeh]

Without the prophecy, there is the possibility that he can run away instead of facing Xykon and returning to the prison, and Roy would be responsible for every evil deed he might commit, because he let him free.

if anything, this sounds like it's a reason to make Roy care less about keeping Belkar around, rather than more. If he's too much trouble then hey, he's doomed anyway so might as well cut him loose since it's not like he'll have much time to cause havoc.

[Peelee]

That's why Mark of Justice was there in the first place.

Before then he wasn't responsible for Belkar's freedom.

He's exactly as responsible for Belkar's freedom before tbe MoJ as he is now. Belkar was just as muchua flight risk before the MoJ as he is now.

Roy does not, and never has, needed the prophecy. Or the MoJ. The. OK made the t even easoeruto control Belkar, but was not necessary.

[Precure]

He's exactly as responsible for Belkar's freedom before tbe MoJ as he is now.

That makes no sense. He's responsible for her freedom because he's the one that helped him out of Azure City prison. Before MoJ there was no reason for Roy to felt any guilt other than associating with him.

[Peelee]

That makes no sense. He's responsible for her freedom because he's the one that helped him out of Azure City prison. Before MoJ there was no reason for Roy to felt any guilt other than associating with him.

That makes no sense. There is no more Azure City. And Hinjo, the ruler of former Azure City, met Belkar after the MoJ wss dispelled and didn't demand him to stay on the island in prison. And, to boot, MoJ wasn't related to Belkar's legal issues anyway, that was explicitly an extrajudicial aspect that Lord Shojo put in, which was why Hinjo couldn't get rid of it. And, to cap it all off, Roy hasn't expressed guilt of associating with Belkar.

Your strange obsession with the MoJ seems to come at the cost of casting aside large amounts of the narrative.

[Precure]

That makes no sense. There is no more Azure City. (!!!) And Hinjo, the ruler of former Azure City, met Belkar after the MoJ wss dispelled and didn't demand him to stay on the island in prison. (Why would he?) And, to boot, MoJ wasn't related to Belkar's legal issues anyway, (what?) that was explicitly an extrajudicial aspect that Lord Shojo put in, which was why Hinjo couldn't get rid of it. (what does it had to do with anything?) And, to cap it all off, Roy hasn't expressed guilt of associating with Belkar (Ok? Bad for him).

Your strange obsession with the MoJ seems to come at the cost of casting aside large amounts of the narrative. (Narrative of what?)

*scrubbed*

[OvisCaedo]

I'm having trouble understanding what the angle here even is.

So the argument is that, the Oracle could have been lying/misleading with the prophecy in order to get Roy to keep Belkar in the party for a greater purpose. Because otherwise, Roy might... cut Belkar's throat in his sleep in order to avoid the potential risk of Belkar ditching the party and running off to commit evil acts? But if he only has seven weeks maximum to live, that doesn't count as a risk any more, since it's only at most seven weeks of whatever vile acts one might imagine for him, and that's an easy write off???

[Peelee]

*scrub the post, screub the quote*

Imean, at this point, you've said the pointing out the words of thr author is a fallacy, Belkar is wrong about Roy controlling him, Roy is wrong about him controlling Belkar, the deva is wrong about Roy controlling Belkar, Roy feels guilty despite never saying so for freeing Belkar from a prison that the ruler of the city actually freed him from with a plea bargain and did not enforce the next time said ruler saw Belkar because the judicial authority that held him is gone. Oh, and the MoJ, which you have harped on this whole time, isn't even part of that justice system which Roy freed Belkar from (even though that was done by Hinjo) and Roy feels guilty despite never saying or acting like it. All because the Oracle, who explcitly does not want to influence people with prophecies, wanted to influence someone with a prophecy.


You know, i feel pretty good about not needing to bother replying anymore.

[brian 333]

The MoJ is not really important to this conversation, because it came long after Roy's decision to keep Belkar around. Roy had already accepted his responsibility for Belkar from the time Belkar joined the team.

You can see on the deva's graph that Belkar's Evil quotient decreased drastically and stayed down below his lifetime average from the time Roy began to associate with Belkar. Even with the MoJ, in Roy's absence Belkar resumed his Evil ways, causing Haley no end of complications.

What the Mark of Justice did was to cause an internal change in Belkar. He was no longer behaving out of fear of Roy, but out of a new understanding of personal benefit. Durkon, and later, the paladins, helped to shape and modify that understanding, but all of this occurred well after Roy assumed responsibility.

The Oracle being a jerk to Roy may just be The Oracle being a jerk. The Oracle detests creatures without scales generally, and Roy and Durkon specifically for the window treatment. It is no surprise The Oracle loathes Belkar due to the fact that Belkar murders The Oracle.

But there are two separate and not necessarily related issues here, not one.
1) Roy assuming responsibility for Belkar actually and measureably reduces the Evil Belkar is doing at the time and would have done in the future.
2) The Oracle is a jerk.

[Precure]

I'm having trouble understanding what the angle here even is.

So the argument is that, the Oracle could have been lying/misleading with the prophecy in order to get Roy to keep Belkar in the party for a greater purpose. Because otherwise, Roy might... cut Belkar's throat in his sleep in order to avoid the potential risk of Belkar ditching the party and running off to commit evil acts? But if he only has seven weeks maximum to live, that doesn't count as a risk any more, since it's only at most seven weeks of whatever vile acts one might imagine for him, and that's an easy write off???

Not "cut his throat" per se, as he can rid of him by simply handing him out to Hinjo*, but the rest is correct: The risk of Belkar running away to be a villain or menace is substantially lessened thanks to the prophecy.

* But apparently "Azure City no longer exist" and crimes committed there doesn't matter anymore. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[OvisCaedo]

So after Roy argued to the deva that Belkar is too much of a menace to be held safely in jail, he would have proceeded to hand Belkar over to the leader of a struggling refugee fleet to hold him prisoner. Because suddenly, after however long they've traveled together, and with the fate of the world at stake (threatening Belkar's own life as well), Roy would feel (wrongly) convinced Belkar was going to ditch them now and needed to cut the problem off in advance. (but only if those crimes could go on for more than seven weeks, if it's less than that Roy no longer cares about letting him run loose).

and it is really only out of a concern for offscreen crimes against random civillians, since if Roy thought Belkar's evil acts were going to hinder the party, the prophecy would not actually give Roy any reason to NOT just kill (or ineffectually jail) Belkar. It would just be "Oh, I guess I'm the one fulfilling it."

Since we're dealing with a guy who sees the future, he'd only need to come up with a lie to avoid this happening if it's what WOULD have happened.

[Provengreil]

I'm having trouble understanding what the angle here even is.

So the argument is that, the Oracle could have been lying/misleading with the prophecy in order to get Roy to keep Belkar in the party for a greater purpose. Because otherwise, Roy might... cut Belkar's throat in his sleep in order to avoid the potential risk of Belkar ditching the party and running off to commit evil acts? But if he only has seven weeks maximum to live, that doesn't count as a risk any more, since it's only at most seven weeks of whatever vile acts one might imagine for him, and that's an easy write off???

There is no angle. This whole thread was created to brainstorm ways to interpret the Oracle's prophecy about Belkar to mean something other than that Belkar will die and not be resurrected. As you can see from most of the last ten pages of comments, any explanation of that gets increasingly tortured. Occams razor applies and the explanation is simple: Belkar will die, and the Oracle is (understandably) salty.

[Tubercular Ox]

There is no angle. This whole thread was created to brainstorm ways to interpret the Oracle's prophecy about Belkar to mean something other than that Belkar will die and not be resurrected. As you can see from most of the last ten pages of comments, any explanation of that gets increasingly tortured. Occams razor applies and the explanation is simple: Belkar will die, and the Oracle is (understandably) salty.

If the purpose of the thread is to brainstorm ways to interpret the Oracle's prophecy about Belkar to mean something other than that Belkar will die and not be resurrected, then everyone who is arguing that Belkar is going to die should be reported for threadcrapping. They're just pointless negations of the purpose of a thread.

[Peelee]

Not "cut his throat" per se, as he can rid of him by simply handing him out to Hinjo*, but the rest is correct: The risk of Belkar running away to be a villain or menace is substantially lessened thanks to the prophecy.

* But apparently "Azure City no longer exist" and crimes committed there doesn't matter anymore. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Pictured: Hinjo not giving two whits about Belkar leaving.

Again, you have to discard significant parts of the narrative to make your argument hold. Such as several characters talking about how Roy can control Belkar, or the author talking about how Roy can control Belkar, or people who you claim feel certain ways or want certain things never expressing that they feel those ways or want those things.

[hamishspence]

Bonus strips in Don't Split the Party, set after the party are reunited but before they set off for the Western Continent, go into more detail on Hinjo's plans for Belkar:

Spoiler

Show

He'd sentenced Belkar to 6 years in jail, -5 for helping to defend Azure City, so 1 year in jail, way back in War & XPs-


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html


and he hasn't changed his mind about Belkar serving that 1 year. He's made this clear to Belkar, and said that he believes Roy will ensure that Belkar serves that 1 year if he has to ask Roy to do so.

[Peelee]

Bonus strips in Don't Split the Party, set after the party are reunited but before they set off for the Western Continent, go into more detail on Hinjo's plans for Belkar:

Spoiler

Show

He'd sentenced Belkar to 6 years in jail, -5 for helping to defend Azure City, so 1 year in jail, way back in War & XPs-


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html


and he hasn't changed his mind about Belkar serving that 1 year. He's made this clear to Belkar, and said that Roy will ensure that Belkar serves that 1 year if he has to ask Roy to do so.

Forgot about that, that's fair. Though that still doesn't address that the risk of Belkar running off to be a menace isn't lessened at all by the prophecy, just the maximum length of time he could do so is. Which, given that OtOoPCs had him join the party specifically as a means of safeguarding himself, doesn't seem all too important anyway as he was always at risk of being imprisoned or killed without the safety in numbers.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's actually worser than that: Roy was expecting and supposed to control a unruly and rebellious Belkar, yet he actually failed to control a Belkar that was trying his best to fake character development.

You seem to be confusing leadership with pulling the puppet strings on another person. That's the root of what's wrong with your argument on this.

if anything, this sounds like it's a reason to make Roy care less about keeping Belkar around, rather than more. If he's too much trouble then hey, he's doomed anyway so might as well cut him loose since it's not like he'll have much time to cause havoc.

Roy instead chose to keep him pointed at the bad guys. That choice paid off when Belkar put the stake into Durkula's heart.

He's exactly as responsible for Belkar's freedom before tbe MoJ as he is now.

Are you reaching back into OotPCs for that? Azure City isn't the first time Roy kept Belkar out of jail, if we use that as a source/supporting information.

You can see on the deva's graph that Belkar's Evil quotient decreased drastically and stayed down below his lifetime average from the time Roy began to associate with Belkar.

Indeed. Reform doesn't happen overnight.

The Oracle being a jerk to Roy may just be The Oracle being a jerk.

Indeed. Occam's Razor and all of that.

[Kardwill]

Even if it's true, Roy don't have that kind of trust of him.

That's debatable. Belkar isn't the only one that changed. Roy has come a long way since his "I can't sleep because Belkar will slit my throat" days, and has learned to shelve a lot of his early distrust and arrogance. He doesn't really trust Belkar or treat him like a friend, but it looks like he sees him as a colleague. A potential troublemaker, sure, but someone useful and who sometimes actually has a point. A (dangerous) member of the team.
Even if they don't think Belkar's truly reformed, the OOTS noticed that the halfling if much less of a lose canon lately.

Right now, Belkar's presence out of prison generates more good than evil, simply by being a tool used against greater evil. Roy was willing to use Belkar when the halfling was a complete psycho and the mission was just "let's travel and do personal quests". I don't see why he would change his mind now that Belkar is semi-reliable and the mission is "The world will end in a few weeks if we don't stop the bad guys"

Sure, there was a moment just after the MoJ was removed where Haley and Roy were pissed off and thinking about what to do if they couldn't control Belkar. At that point, they may have decided to ditch him. But I don't think the Oracle argument is what decided of Belkar's fate. When Roy told her about it in comic 666, Haley had already pretty much decided to keep him around. It's just that instead of "Use Belkar to whack Xykon, and watch him die", the plan probably would have been "Use Belkar to whack Xykon, and then deal with him"

[Metastachydium]

Roy has come a long way since his "I can't sleep because Belkar will slit my throat" days, and has learned to shelve a lot of his early distrust and arrogance. He doesn't really trust Belkar or treat him like a friend, but it looks like he sees him as a colleague. A potential troublemaker, sure, but someone useful and who sometimes actually has a point.

Case in point.

[Precure]

Sorry Meta, but no. These strips are way too recent to be used as a proof of what Roy would do in strip 666.

Forgot about that, that's fair

*scrubbed*

When Roy told her about it in comic 666, Haley had already pretty much decided to keep him around.

Why? She decided to abandon her twice by then, and was asking Roy about what to do with him.

[Peelee]

*scrub the post, scrub the quote*

A.) that was in print-only material, not the online comic.
2.) that does not address the myriad other issues i and many others have pointed out that you handwave away (eg you claim Roy feels guilty, I point out that nothing indicates he feels guilty, and you say shame on him then. Paraphrased).

[Precure]

A.) that was in print-only material, not the online comic.

Print only material isn't needed, strip 420 is enough.

2.) that does not address the myriad other issues i and many others have pointed out that you handwave away (eg you claim Roy feels guilty, I point out that nothing indicates he feels guilty, and you say shame on him then. Paraphrased).

Funny thing is, I actually said "Before MoJ there was no reason for Roy to felt any guilt" which doesn't actually say that he felt any guilt.

[Metastachydium]

Sorry Meta, but no. These strips are way too recent to be used as a proof of what Roy would do in strip 666.

I responded to Kardwill, who responded to your reply to Mic's comment that referenced no. 1280, so whether you believe it tells us about what Roy did or didn't believe back around no. 666 is of little overall relevance.

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Also, no. You took issue with "Azure City doesn't exist anymore" (technically true, I'd argue, even as the Non-Elven Island Community technically has a continuity with it); "Hinjo didn't demand Belkar to stay on the island in prison" (which is true, and happened after 420); and other such things "reading the comic again" doesn't have anything to do with.

[Peelee]

Print only material isn't needed, strip 420 is enough.

The flower already answered this for me.

Funny thing is, I actually said "Before MoJ there was no reason for Roy to felt any guilt" which doesn't actually say that he felt any guilt.

"i heavily implied he would behave differently because he would feel guilty but i didn't actually say the words 'Roy feels guilt'" is certainly an argument for something. Whatever it is, it certainly isn't compelling in any way to make me think you have a good point.

[Kish]

Before the Mark of Justice, Belkar had killed goblins who were trying to surrender and low-level barbarians. If Roy ever had reason to feel guilty for Belkar's actions (and I'd unhesitatingly say he did, though I do not believe Rich agrees with me), that reason is firmly located in "before MoJ," not whatever you're implying should suddenly make him feel guilty later, Precure.

[Kardwill]

Why? She decided to abandon her twice by then, and was asking Roy about what to do with him.

And in the few pages after she kicked him out/left him to die,

- Belkar saved her life
- He easily fought off 2 high level enemies that were taking her apart
- He defeated Crystal, but left her alive since killing or sparing her had to be Haley's decision
- He helped recover Roy's corpse
- And he behaved like a team player. Of course, it was faked character development (at the time), and of course she didn't trust him, but he was back in the "Dangerous asset" department, rather than the "disposable loose canon" one

- And Haley broke the truce with the thieve's guild and murdered someone in cold blood, endangering her companions because of a personal feud (and a lot of money). Let's note that Belkard saw right through her bluff, but didn't rat her out. And yeah, Crystal needed killing, and Haley would do it again in a heartbeat, but she evidently didn't think it was something to be proud of.

So by comic 666, Haley was adventuring with Belkar, allowing him to tag along, and treating him like an accomplice/helper/party member (see comic 645, for example). And she probably felt in no position to throw stones.
She mentioned the situation to Roy in 666 because the fact that Belkar broke his leash was still worrysome, and she wanted the official party leader to take the final decision, but "kick him out" visibly wasn't her default option. She already had taken Belkar back as a party member.