Domino Quartz's Delightfully Quaint Random Banter Thread #248

[BisectedBrioche]

Happy new year to everybody!



Ah, two games I want to adore but have issues with the trans representation in. Admittedly my gripe with BG3 is far more petty, but they included all these wonderful options in the game so you can play a horny nonbinary intersex tiefling paladin with dark urges and an affinity for BDSM, and then made ALL the party members cisgender (and mostly elfs). That said the Tiefling horns are majestic... dammit I want to restart BG3 again just so I can have some sexy sexy horns...

And yes I know if I want to make any of the characters gender the community made mods for it almost as fast as the bigger chests mods. It's the fact that nobody's trans by default that rubs me the wrong way.

Slight spoiler, but there is a trans NPC tucked away:

Spoiler: Spoilers for Act 2

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Nocturne, the tiefling who knew Shadowheart when they were kids is a trans woman (voiced by Abigail Thorne/Philosophy Tube, no less). You'll only know that if you do a sidequest with some mushrooms in Act 1 and restore some of Shad's memories (Shad'll remember her, and the fact she presented as a boy, and Nocturne will fill in the blanks when you meet her), though.

[Anonymouswizard]

Slight spoiler, but there is a trans NPC tucked away:

Spoiler: Spoilers for Act 2

Show

Nocturne, the tiefling who knew Shadowheart when they were kids is a trans woman (voiced by Abigail Thorne/Philosophy Tube, no less). You'll only know that if you do a sidequest with some mushrooms in Act 1 and restore some of Shad's memories (Shad'll remember her, and the fact she presented as a boy, and Nocturne will fill in the blanks when you meet her), though.

Yes, but there's a big difference between a well-done trans NPC (especially a minor one) and a trans party member. I think letting non-cis people be heroes in such a mainstream title would have been an amazing thing for trans representation. If you wanted to avoid the 'trans is based on bits' potential issue you'd lock them coming out behind a high-approval probably Act 3 dialogue.

Hell most of the party are elves and despite it being canon that D&D elves are more commonly intersex and some are even sexfluid they're STILL all 100% cis.

Thankfully the modding community does what Larian doesn't and has added top surgery scars to Gale.

[Batcathat]

It's also interesting to note that it means that BG3 has the exact same amount of trans representation as the last entry in the Baldur's Gate series, Siege of Dragonspear, despite Dragonspear being considerably smaller and came out in 2016.

[Peelee]

Thankfully the modding community does what Larian doesn't and has added top surgery scars to Gale.

That seems like an odd choice, given how immersed Gale is in magic and how trivial it is to change body parts with magic.

[Anonymouswizard]

That seems like an odd choice, given how immersed Gale is in magic and how trivial it is to change body parts with magic.

IIRC 5e doesn't have an equivalent to Polymorph Any Object, which was the by far easiest way to nab a permanent sex reassignment. But I more picked Gale as he's the one who feels most like a trans person to me, with Shadowheart in second place.

Although I'm sure DMsGuild has a Witch's Valley to Wizard's Tower spell buried in it somewhere.

[DataNinja]

That seems like an odd choice, given how immersed Gale is in magic and how trivial it is to change body parts with magic.

A lot of the time, things like that are about feeling represented, even if it may not have strict accuracy. I know that I've seen that commented on regarding representation in sci-fi illustrations before. "Well, with the tech they have, why would there still be surgery scars? And also, what are the odds they'd still be using these particular pride flags that far in the future?" (Or, in a similar vein, say, people who use wheelchairs in a setting where magic or tech could theoretically feasibly cause that to be a nonissue.)

So, yeah. It's often not that people are hoping for complete verisimilitude or anything... they just want to have the opportunity to see themselves represented.

[Anonymouswizard]

(Or, in a similar vein, say, people who use wheelchairs in a setting where magic or tech could theoretically feasibly cause that to be a nonissue.)

It's always fun to run the numbers on those claims, I did it when someone claimed that trans people in the Forgotten Realms would just pay for magic to change gender (they often bring up the girdle). For the record it's something like 3-5 years pay if you're using the Profession skill rules and allowing Pathfinder content.

Plus yes, it's about feeling included. Larian very much could have had a non-cis party member and made it obvious when they decided not to.

[Keltest]

It's always fun to run the numbers on those claims, I did it when someone claimed that trans people in the Forgotten Realms would just pay for magic to change gender (they often bring up the girdle). For the record it's something like 3-5 years pay if you're using the Profession skill rules and allowing Pathfinder content.

Plus yes, it's about feeling included. Larian very much could have had a non-cis party member and made it obvious when they decided not to.

I mean, the economy in 3.5 is super broken, presumably to facilitate an environment where people feel like going out and beating up zombies or whatever is a better way to make a living than, for example, running a business.

More generally, not every genre is equally equipped to tell every story, and BG3 isnt really about the personal identity of any of the origins except Durge (who, being customizable, could well be trans if you wanted).

ETA: I want to be clear here, i'm not saying they couldnt have done it. Theres absolutely a version of BG3 where "who are you" are the arc words and not just something clever at character selection. I'm saying their choice not to is just as legitimate as it would have been to have done so.

ETA 2: Also, hot take, Karlach would make a better trans character than Gale.

[Anonymouswizard]

IMore generally, not every genre is equally equipped to tell every story, and BG3 isnt really about the personal identity of any of the origins except Durge (who, being customizable, could well be trans if you wanted).

And Shadowheart, Astarion, and to a certain extent Karlach as well (who is clearly in the closet about wanting to live longer) and Lae'zel.

Although honestly I find the implication, intentional or otherwise, of 'characters being trans or not only matters if it's a story about personal identity' kind of insulting.

ETA: there are deep deep issues with the relatively common assertion that Karlach is the 'obvious' pick for a trans character, especially the fact that it plays into stereotypes.

[Keltest]

And Shadowheart, Astarion, and to a certain extent Karlach as well (who is clearly in the closet about wanting to live longer) and Lae'zel.

Although honestly I find the implication, intentional or otherwise, of 'characters being trans or not only matters if it's a story about personal identity' kind of insulting.

Karlach is definitely not in the closet about that at all, she's just very clear about where the line she's unwilling to cross is. And I would disagree with Shadowheart and Astarion, in particular. They both know who they are, its how that relates to everyone else that they explore.

Anyway, sorry, but its a complicated subject that can be hard to articulate sometimes. Like, you can't just have it be there and never be visible at all, because thats no different from it not being there, so there needs to be some way to engage with it, right? But then how far do you go before it becomes The Thing about that character? Tokenism isnt much better, nor is just flat out getting it wrong. Its a delicate line to walk and if you go too far off it in either direction youre going to offend the people that youre trying to support, you know, even beyond tokens being boring characters overall.

It's hard, yo. I don't blame anyone for preferring to just not try and tackle the subject in the first place if they don't think they can do it justice.

ETA: there are deep deep issues with the relatively common assertion that Karlach is the 'obvious' pick for a trans character, especially the fact that it plays into stereotypes.

Honestly im mostly just flabbergasted that people latch on to Gale of all of them. Is it just because he's vanilla white human male or something? If anything, I would peg him as agender or otherwise nonbinary, his romance is all about emotional energy and he gets almost bothered if you try and have a more conventional physically intimate relationship with him rather than letting him show off with all his magic.

[Batcathat]

Like, you can't just have it be there and never be visible at all, because thats no different from it not being there, so there needs to be some way to engage with it, right? But then how far do you go before it becomes The Thing about that character?

While I just have an outside perspective on it (being cis white straight male, I rarely lack in representation along those particular lines ), it seems like something like that being part of the character(s) but not really focused on would be a lot better than not being part of them at all (or having it be part of them to the degree that it's basically their entire personality).

On a completely different note, I'm usually the last person to complain about the cold but I have to admit that negative 35 C (which is apparently about -32 F, so for once they almost line up) is a little too chilly even for me.

[Keltest]

While I just have an outside perspective on it (being cis white straight male, I rarely lack in representation along those particular lines ), it seems like something like that being part of the character(s) but not really focused on would be a lot better than not being part of them at all (or having it be part of them to the degree that it's basically their entire personality).

Sure, but where is that? Speaking as an also cis white straight male, its not like its something I go and do every day, you know? Its just there, and it only comes up when its, ahem, directly applicable to the situation at hand. Which is, unfortunately, not very often.

On a completely different note, I'm usually the last person to complain about the cold but I have to admit that negative 35 C (which is apparently about -32 F, so for once they almost line up) is a little too chilly even for me.

It should be illegal to be that cold.

[Anonymouswizard]

Sure, but where is that? Speaking as an also cis white straight male, its not like its something I go and do every day, you know? Its just there, and it only comes up when its, ahem, directly applicable to the situation at hand. Which is, unfortunately, not very often.

Fun fact: being trans can come up in weird places. Like getting support for not having access to the timetable. Also some people are just relatively open about it, it's entirely realistic for high approval to unlock an 'are you sitting down? This might be a shocking revelation' conversation.

It also comes up literally every day while you're on HRT. Possibly every time you use the bathroom if your genitals are a dysphoria trigger.

[Peelee]

, his romance is all about emotional energy and he gets almost bothered if you try and have a more conventional physically intimate relationship with him rather than letting him show off with all his magic.

Spoiler

Show

When you bang a god, there's nowhere to go but down.

It should be illegal to be that cold.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Rater202]

Honestly, I figure the best way to do representation is to just do it.

Have random shirtless man have top surgery scars.

Have someone in a crows shot be wearing noticeable pride colors.

Have the one recurring character be referred to exclusively with singular they pronouns.

Just... Don't draw undue attention to it and wave it around like you should be getting a parade for having trans, enby, or other LGBT+ characters in your work.

Much like lefthandedness, this is a perfectly normal and natural variation that's been stigmatized for no goddamn reason. So treat it as normal and natural.

Naturally, this only applies if the goal is representation, mind you. If the story is actively about trans people then be as blatant about it as you need to be to tell the story you want to tell.

Or if you just want to have a bunch of trans people in your story, then do whatever as long as you aren't leaning on offensive stereotypes.

But I'm assuming we're talking specifically about representation and not trans people in media in general.

[Peelee]

"Bad reasons" are different from "no reason".

[LaZodiac]

Qwerty had left to go home, and now things are very quiet.

I hope everyone is doing well today. I need to get back to writing... but maybe not for a few days.

[Anonymouswizard]

Qwerty had left to go home, and now things are very quiet.

I hope everyone is doing well today. I need to get back to writing... but maybe not for a few days.

Nah, the sad period is where you'll write your best, most emotional and heart wrenching work!

Except for the stuff you wrote while happy

[Peelee]

there are deep deep issues with the relatively common assertion that Karlach is the 'obvious' pick for a trans character, especially the fact that it plays into stereotypes.

And even ignoring those issues, speaking just for myself, I love giant hulking badass lady and am 100% down for more of them.

[LaZodiac]

Nah, the sad period is where you'll write your best, most emotional and heart wrenching work!

Except for the stuff you wrote while happy

I'll do my best to manage that, thank you.

I have mostly eaten doughnuts.

[BisectedBrioche]

And Shadowheart, Astarion, and to a certain extent Karlach as well (who is clearly in the closet about wanting to live longer) and Lae'zel.

Although honestly I find the implication, intentional or otherwise, of 'characters being trans or not only matters if it's a story about personal identity' kind of insulting.

ETA: there are deep deep issues with the relatively common assertion that Karlach is the 'obvious' pick for a trans character, especially the fact that it plays into stereotypes.

I mean I get strong trans vibes from Karlach for reasons other than her being a musclebound barb with intense big sister energy. It helps that her VA (Samantha Beart, who is enby and uses she/they) said she played her as somewhat flexible (more specifically here, at MCM comicon - Timestamped at 22:40). Trying to be as friendly as possible and not looking like a threat is something I can also very specifically relate to (in my experience as a trans woman) - not because I'm especially big or intimidating but very much because I'm aware of being perceived as a threat.

A lot of it comes from her being a tief (I can and have wrote long essays on tieflings as surrogate queer folk), but there's also the way she approaches a romance (thanks to her story she will flirt, but then nervously walk it back), her casualness with gendering herself and just her whole vibe.

A lot of the trans headcanoning comes from trans folk projecting on her (myself included), but I also understand why you might be wary about it being stereotypical, though.

[Anonymouswizard]

And even ignoring those issues, speaking just for myself, I love giant hulking badass lady and am 100% down for more of them.

At this point I wouldn't be shocked if we get a

Spoiler

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Karlach & Wyll: Return to Avernus

spinoff.

I'll do my best to manage that, thank you.

I'm also very poorly referencing Singing in the Rain.

I have mostly eaten doughnuts.

It's always nice to see that word spelt correctly.

[Keltest]

It's always nice to see that word spelt correctly.

Bold of someone who pronounces "Lieutenant" with an F to comment on spelling things correctly.

[Peelee]

Bold of someone who pronounces "Lieutenant" with an F to comment on spelling things correctly.

Doubly so when spelling is made up and changes as time progresses.

[Batcathat]

Clearly, it should be spelt (Annoyed Grunt)-nuts.

[LaZodiac]

I'm also very poorly referencing Singing in the Rain.

It's always nice to see that word spelt correctly.

Ah, I wouldn't have noticed that. I've never seen Singing in the Rain (though I did see Fiddler on the Roof while Qwerty was up).

Donuts and doughnuts are both valid spellings of the food. Ironically I was actually eating timbits, or "doughnut holes" as americans call them.

Clearly, it should be spelt (Annoyed Grunt)-nuts.

Hah, I get that.

Anyway I had a wild ass dream please enjoy;

Spoiler: Zodi Dream Ramble

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First was, I was streaming with my friend Robin. I had just finished my latest game, but needed a new one, and after some deliberation we decided to stream Pokemon Blazing Black2 and White2, a game that may or may not exist, that is a hack of the game with some added variety and quality of life changes and stuff. Then mid way through my battery on my 3DS that I use to play hacked 3DS games died so we had to switch games, tooo...

A PSX graphical leveled Dark Souls team based roguelike, where after a few rooms we attacked a specter lady with a scythe, killed her, and activated a super boss who was a giant blood covered one legged one armed giant monster. I was using my own scythe so he thought I was the girl and he was attacking us to get to me, but when he got me he realized I wasn't and yeeted me across the room and started going berserker mode, killing all of us except me. I fought bravely and almost defeated him, but then I went into the next bespoke room to avoid him, came back, and the entire room had reset so we were like "wow that sucks nevermind" and we moved on to game three, which was...

Post apocalypse kart builder game in the Halo universe for some reason. It was mildly fun because we could rocket around and stuff, and we did that until the end- when I woke up at 4 in the morning. After dropping my phone behind my bed and having to fish it out I then went back to sleep, wherein I had the second part of this dream, where...

I was playing a Battle Network style game, which seemed really neat, with various secret packages given to the player over the course of the game along with her partner (the game was also gay). Then it quickly jumped to the final dungeon wherein we learned that the protagonist's partner (who had to go back home due to her vacation time being up) had learned the truth; the planet was going to explode and each country has an escape ship. I refuse to escape and try to save the day because otherwise "I'll never see you again"

[Rater202]

big or intimidating but very much because I'm aware of being perceived as a threat.

As a big and tall person who has on several occasions been treated as a threat this is simultaneously confusion and yet painfully familiar.

Spoiler: Zodi Dream Ramble

Show

I was playing a Battle Network style game, which seemed really neat, with various secret packages given to the player over the course of the game along with her partner (the game was also gay). Then it quickly jumped to the final dungeon wherein we learned that the protagonist's partner (who had to go back home due to her vacation time being up) had learned the truth; the planet was going to explode and each country has an escape ship. I refuse to escape and try to save the day because otherwise "I'll never see you again"

Hmmm, I wonder what that could mean.

[LaZodiac]

As a big and tall person who has on several occasions been treated as a threat this is simultaneously confusion and yet painfully familiar.

Hmmm, I wonder what that could mean.

Same.

Yeah I'm genuinely impressed with my subconsciousness. I have this extremely long and elaborate dream sequence where I'm just having fun with a friend, I wake up, fumble my phone into the depths of my bed, fish it out, go back to sleep, and THEN I get hit with a speed run "lol you're sad because your girlfriend went home" brain crunch.

It's truly funny a prank my brain did.

[Rater202]

It's truly funny a prank my brain did.

Meanwhile, my subconscious keeps trying to write creepypasta but burning out before the ending.

...I still want to know why the **** I was wearing a Ms. Marvel Halloween costume and several layers of plastic wrap in the "I'm back at school but it's been taken over by cannibalistic cultists with zero subtly" dream.

I recall saying "they don't make full-body swimsuits for men anymore" and "It's gonna be wet today" when questioned on it and I was suiting up to confront the cult so... Did I expect to be blood-spattered? That would explain the plastic wrap but...

[TaiLiu]

Trying to be as friendly as possible and not looking like a threat is something I can also very specifically relate to (in my experience as a trans woman) - not because I'm especially big or intimidating but very much because I'm aware of being perceived as a threat.

As a big and tall person who has on several occasions been treated as a threat this is simultaneously confusion and yet painfully familiar.

Same.

That sucks. Sorry, everyone. Transmisogyny and ableism are super unfair.