Will somebody arrive mid-fight to seize The Gate?

[KorvinStarmast]

I want to thank RatElemental and Grendelkin for getting somewhere close to the topic...

Will somebody arrive mid-fight to seize The Gate?

Here on page 3.
I can't answer anything but "yes" however "whom" remains unclear...so I am sticking with my IFCC interference guess.

[Grendelkin]

Alternatively, the bugbears could show up en masse and turn on Team Evil and the Order alike. Oona has made it pretty clear she and her tribe aren't in this for Redcloak's revolution, and while trade with Gobbotopia would be beneficial, it is not essential the way Monster Hollow is.

[The MunchKING]

How does that benefit them though? They are high power outer planes creatures. but still just basically aspects of those planes and bound to them. They already serve whatever divine powers that exist and have influence over their respective planes, so how does plotting to create one even more powerful (evil) deity for them to serve under make any real difference to them?

They are scary efficient manipulators, so the idea is this would be a Super-God they could control. Or at least manipulate into doing what they want.

Also they are Evil, so the extent that they are willing to work with ANY Evil God is questionable let alone serve them.

We know for a fact that Hel's plan would have served their plans as well, if the gods had voted to destroy the world. But if the gods destroy the world, the next step in the process is "wipe/reset all of the outer planes beings". Which means they cease to exist as they are now. Any plan they are working on must include a way to avoid that, and given the relative power/position of outer planes beings to the gods, there's literally no way for them to do that without completely upsetting that power dynamic.

Or they don't know about that bit, because they've been mindwiped.

I'm somewhat of a fan of the theory that they've found some way to redirect all of the divine/creative energy involved in making the prime material plane, so that they can use it themselves, both to sustain themselves, and to be the ones to actually create the next world (or something similar). Why settle for making someone else the uber god, with them as loyal lackeys, when they can literally create a new world where they are the only ones involved in its creation, and they can effectively "write out" the rest of the gods. With no one to worship them, the old gods will fade away, while the fiends will gain all the power for themselves.

Seems like a bold enough plan to me.

That sounds BONKERS. If they could pull that off they would be sitting pretty.

[KorvinStarmast]

Alternatively, the bugbears could show up en masse and turn on Team Evil and the Order alike.

Given Xykon's and V's AoE spells, and the Order showing that they can handle crowds, this does not seem likely.

[Grendelkin]

Given Xykon's and V's AoE spells, and the Order showing that they can handle crowds, this does not seem likely.

Oona and her tribe regularly tangle with the monsters Terini seeded in the dungeon. If they shadow Team Evil and the Order and wait for them to exhaust their resources fighting one another, they could make a good effort at beating them both. There's a chance they've been getting ready this whole time to take down Team Evil, at least.

Remember what Oona said to the Monster in the Dark? She'd take him in when Xykon died. Not "if", "when". She's giving Redcloak a chance to do right by her tribe because he's a fellow goblinoid, but I think she'll be prepared to take him down as well if he fails to do his duty.

[KorvinStarmast]

Remember what Oona said to the Monster in the Dark? She'd take him in when Xykon died. Not "if", "when". She's giving Redcloak a chance to do right by her tribe because he's a fellow goblinoid, but I think she'll be prepared to take him down as well if he fails to do his duty.

In this strip, she says "if" in the last panel. Is that what you are referring to?

[Grendelkin]

In this strip, she says "if" in the last panel. Is that what you are referring to?

Oof. >_< I misremembered that.
Please disregard me and carry on...

[Precure]

Serini: Looks smart and evil, actually stupid inside

Oona: Looks stupid, actually evil and smart inside

I wouldn't ignore Oona and her tribe's chances, they've been working closely with Xykon and Redcloak for a while, gods knew what they learned about them in this time frame.

[KorvinStarmast]

Serini: Looks smart and evil, actually stupid inside

Referring to someone who has something like PTSD (see the Xykon attack on her) as stupid is not a good look.

Oona: Looks stupid, actually evil and smart inside

Oona does not look stupid. Oona speaks common in an idiosyncratic way, sort of how a native born Italian, or a native born Mexican, speaks English in an idiosyncratic way as they learn the language. Similarly, my 'accent' in both Italian and Spanish are a signal that I was never a native speaker. I am not fluent in either. There were similar nonsensical criticisms of Bandana's style of speaking/slang/dialect.

I wouldn't ignore Oona and her tribe's chances, they've been working closely with Xykon and Redcloak for a while, gods knew what they learned about them in this time frame.

While I won't underestimate Oona's tribe of bugbears, you may be overestimating their power level unless a lot of them have pets like Lancer.

[Precure]

Referring to someone who has something like PTSD (see the Xykon attack on her) as stupid is not a good look.

Why?

Oona does not look stupid. Oona speaks common in an idiosyncratic way, sort of how a native born Italian, or a native born Mexican, speaks English in an idiosyncratic way as they learn the language. Similarly, my 'accent' in both Italian and Spanish are a signal that I was never a native speaker. I am not fluent in either. There were similar nonsensical criticisms of Bandana's style of speaking/slang/dialect.

Hence why I said "looks stupid" instead of being one.

While I won't underestimate Oona's tribe of bugbears, you may be overestimating their power level unless a lot of them have pets like Lancer.

If some adventurers are expected to defeat Xykon, why not a whole tribe of them?

[brian 333]

If some adventurers are expected to defeat Xykon, why not a whole tribe of them?

Combat in D&D allows characters ten or more levels higher than their foes to wipe out virtually any number of them. See Belkar's Sexy Shoeless God of War moment.

I assume Oona's tribe is advanced beyond normal 3HD bugbears, but they would have to be level 12 or so to have any real chance to succeed in an attack, and be willing to accept significant losses to do it.

[The MunchKING]

Referring to someone who has something like PTSD (see the Xykon attack on her) as stupid is not a good look.

Someone can both have PTSD AND be stupid. It's not like they are mutually exclusive traits.

[Precure]

Combat in D&D allows characters ten or more levels higher than their foes to wipe out virtually any number of them. See Belkar's Sexy Shoeless God of War moment.

I assume Oona's tribe is advanced beyond normal 3HD bugbears, but they would have to be level 12 or so to have any real chance to succeed in an attack, and be willing to accept significant losses to do it.

They are a tribe of dungeon crawling adventurers, hunting monsters as a living. I wouldn't be surprised if they have impressive PC levels.

[Grendelkin]

Consider also that the fan theory is that Oona has good levels in a prestige class, and her tribe 'hunts a little, tames a little' in Kraagor's tomb, where Serini stables the most powerful monsters she can persuade to set up shop. They have at least one shaman who regularly crafts magic items for the tribe out of monster parts. And Oona, at the very least, is well-prepared to fight spellcasters by wrecking their concentration and doing a *bleep*ton of damage when striking.
I really wouldn't underestimate the tribe.

[Kardwill]

Yeah, anyone using Kraagor's tomb as a convenient shopping mall is crazy strong.

Maybe not "Take down the campaign endboss by themselves" crazy strong, but definitely not pushovers.

Hence why I said "looks stupid" instead of being one.

Thing is, she doesn't look stupid? She is pictured as perceptive, doesn't let RC bull**** her, never does anything stupid nor shows any lack of thought.
Yeah, she and her warg speak common in a weird way, she's brutal, and she tends to be focusing ont the "now". But her speach could simply signal they are not native speakers. IIRC, we never "heard" Oona talk to another tribe member.
Although I agree that it can create expectations for both the people interacting with her, and the readers, since it reminds us of Thogspeak.

The main thing that might create that "stupid bugbear" perception are that we actually often see her through Redcloak's prejudice : Despite all his talk about Goblin Dignity and his epiphany during the Azure City Battle, he's still patronising, or even nasty, in most interactions he has with goblinoids, as if they were not equals but just children too stupid to understand what needs to be done. As a mere bugbear with a martial class, Oona gets the same treatment.

[Liquor Box]

Referring to someone who has something like PTSD (see the Xykon attack on her) as stupid is not a good look.

So someone is stupid, but then they get PTSD, so you can't call them stupid anymore?

[KorvinStarmast]

Someone can both have PTSD AND be stupid. It's not like they are mutually exclusive traits.

So someone is stupid, but then they get PTSD, so you can't call them stupid anymore?

She was not stupid in the first place. There is no evidence of stupidity in Serini.
Stubbornness? Yeah, a bit of that.

[Liquor Box]

She was not stupid in the first place. There is no evidence of stupidity in Serini.
Stubbornness? Yeah, a bit of that.

There is widespread disagreement on whether her decision making is poor, and you are welcome to weigh in on that. But "she has PTSD" is not an argument against.

[brian 333]

Smart people do stupid things all the time. Most commonly when success in one field leads to the belief that they are experts in all fields. Some examples from my life:
A doctor who thought he could renovate his house until he dropped a cast iron porcelain bathtub through the floor, the dining room ceiling, and the picture window of his dining room.
A a chef who taught at a premier culinary institute who thought he could use power tools until he had to go to the above doctor for surgery to reattach his thumb.
A lawyer who is convinced he is only one good night at the casino away from buying back his old life.

Serini is not stupid. She is smart enough to know that no matter how smart she thinks she is, somehow her best laid plans will eventually fail. So her plan was to give it her best shot and call for backup when she needed it.

So far as I can tell, that makes her one step smarter than the rest of the Scribblers. They only gave it their best shot.

[KorvinStarmast]

. But "she has PTSD" is not an argument against.

Your hostility towards Serini has been consistent, so I find your latest position to have no validity - due to your personal bias.

[Liquor Box]

Your hostility towards Serini has been consistent, so I find your latest position to have no validity - due to your personal bias.

Hmmm, so because I haven't had as high of an opinion of Serini as you generally, you reject the suggestion that PTSD has nothing to do with intelligence?

Ok.

[Grendelkin]

Hold up: we've seen the Earth Clerics - the ones who got backstabbed and demolished by the Church of Hel.
What if the other elemental faiths show up to take the Gate, hoping to extort equality or just to take revenge on Hel?

[Peelee]

Hold up: we've seen the Earth Clerics - the ones who got backstabbed and demolished by the Church of Hel.
What if the other elemental faiths show up to take the Gate, hoping to extort equality or just to take revenge on Hel?

So first question, how would they know anything about the Gates, the Snarl, or what Hel did at all?

[Grendelkin]

So first question, how would they know anything about the Gates, the Snarl, or what Hel did at all?

If the elemental faiths are connected in the balance of the world, they might have a good relationship. When the Earth clerics suddenly fell silent, the other Creeds could have investigated what happened.
All it would take is one of those clerics sequestered at the Godsmoot shooting his or her mouth off...

[Kardwill]

So first question, how would they know anything about the Gates, the Snarl, or what Hel did at all?

Easy : They were in contact with old Grontor, since he intended to negociate some reforms allowing all non-theistic religions a place at the moot. And then, after a few days with no news from the creed of stone, the Air Temple adepts rode their sky bisons cloudwalked to unguarded zenith peak and uncovered the godsmoot fiasco.

Okay, that doesn't sound likely at all (like, how did they find Kraagor's gate?), but isn't this thread is about highly unlikely challengers?

[Grendelkin]

Really, all it takes is the cleric of Balder blurting out something he shouldn't or the cleric of Hel gloating about the death of the Creed of Stone.

[Peelee]

If the elemental faiths are connected in the balance of the world, they might have a good relationship. When the Earth clerics suddenly fell silent, they could have investigated what happened.
All it would take is one of those clerics sequestered at the Godsmoot shooting his or her mouth off...

Ok, assuming this very implausible and highly circumstantial case arises, second question. How do they find Kraagor's Gate?

[Kardwill]

Ok, assuming this very implausible and highly circumstantial case arises, second question. How do they find Kraagor's Gate?

That's the tricky one. The simplest way to do it would be to track down the Mechane. A bunch of high level air clerics might be able to do it, but on the other hand, the ship is probably protected against divination, since Julio has dangerous foes.

Not-Grontor gloated about messing with the vote at Firmament, so if someone at the Moot is a tattletale (and between the bodyguards, Veldrina and some of the priests we saw, it's a real possibility), that gives them a lead. Wether it's enough to catch up to the Mechane and follow it depends of when they picked up the trail.

Again grasping at straws here, but I find "how would they do it?" a more entertaining thought process than proving the negative. Call that a GM habit ^^

[Grendelkin]

The other Creeds could go to Firmament for a shot at the vampire who saw about the murder of the Creed of Stone.
Once they're over there, there are sure to be some dwarves willing to talk about what happened - especially once the beer starts flowing. Even if it's in vague terms ("it's all to do with something going on up north"), the Creeds could get a vague lead. If they can question the elements, they could track the Mechane.

[Peelee]

That's the tricky one. The simplest way to do it would be to track down the Mechane. A bunch of high level air clerics might be able to do it, but on the other hand, the ship is probably protected against divination, since Julio has dangerous foes.

Not-Grontor gloated about messing with the vote at Firmament, so if someone at the Moot is a tattletale (and between the bodyguards, Veldrina and some of the priests we saw, it's a real possibility), that gives them a lead. Wether it's enough to catch up to the Mechane and follow it depends of when they picked up the trail.

Again grasping at straws here, but I find "how would they do it?" a more entertaining thought process than proving the negative. Call that a GM habit ^^

The other Creeds could go to Firmament for a shot at the vampire who saw about the murder of the Creed of Stone.
Once they're over there, there are sure to be some dwarves willing to talk about what happened - especially once the beer starts flowing. Even if it's in vague terms ("it's all to do with something going on up north"), the Creeds could get a vague lead. If they can question the elements, they could track the Mechane.

And how would tracking the Mechane work, even if it doesn't have divination protections? No one at the Godsmoot knows what it's called, and few saw it. Almost certainly wouldn't be able to describe it enough to discern it from other airships, ans they certainly don't know any of its crew.

Also the fact that Roy ordered the Mechane to leave meant there would only be a one-hour time frame during which tracking the Mechane would actually give the relevant information, assuming they were able to track it to start with (Kardwill, I'm all for thr fun of exploring "how"!).