OOTS #1296 - The Discussion Thread

[Tzardok]

I know Familiars get Evasion, I'm not sure about Animal Companions.

Animal Companions and Special Mounts get Evasion, Familars get Improved Evasion.

[ShurikVch]

Anybody noticed arrows on the foreheads of the Cult's people?

Spoiler: It reminded me about the...

Show

[Unoriginal]

And yet, Calder specifically accepted subdual by a more powerful foe at least once.

Team Evil isn't the Order of the Scribble. That a group of heroes (however flawed) let Calder live is not an indicator a group of villains (and their two non-evil you-don't-have-a-say-in-what-we-do associates) would extend the same generosity.

Furthermore, even if the dragon "accepted subdual" then, he is outspoken about how right now he wishes to horrifically torture and kill the 1/6th of the group that sudued him. So it's not like he would be loyal to TE forever if they beat him.

I'm sure Calder is smart and wise enough to not fight to the death if he has the choice. I don't think he is charismatic enough to sell the "you beat me, we can work together" trope to the experienced villains of Team Evil after attacking them, when they're so close to getting the Gate already

[urbanwolf]

It is hard to tell the difference between mental stats. I see what Elen is saying to Biggest Red being tied to his intelligence not wisdom. Elen; to me, seems to have an okay wisdom. The opposite of his brother. Nale had goodish intelligence but bad wisdom. I figured as twins they had the same stats at level 1 with the exception of flipping intelligence and wisdom.
Elen with an 8 or 9int and 12 or 13 wisdom and Nale 12 or 13 int and 8 or 9 wisdom.

[Lord Torath]

Anybody noticed arrows on the foreheads of the Cult's people?

I don't think those are arrows. I think those are the heads of red dragon tattoos. See the dragon wings to the sides?

[Gift Jeraff]

I wonder if Calder makes his cultists shave their head or if he takes a preference to bald people, seeing them as less disgustingly mammalian or something like that.

To judge from panel 4, Calder still had both horns when Serini's party met him. I haven't seen the calendar image showing them subduing him, but I gather it already shows his right horn broken off. Do we think he lost it in that fight, or before?

The calendar image shows it was chopped off in that fight, likely by Kraagor's axe.

[ShurikVch]

I don't think those are arrows. I think those are the heads of red dragon tattoos. See the dragon wings to the sides?

While true
1. It's still look like arrows
2. The last of the tattoo is visible only on those who're without hoods (i. e. 2nd-4th in the line). Even the one-eyed cultist, despite lacking a hood, still don't allow to see it clearly (Also, he got the ᛋ scar on his forehead; "Yer a cultist, Harry"? )

[Tubercular Ox]

If I were to further speculate, I would assume that they want them both to fight and weaken eachother, and then step in with their own forces and <do something>. What the <something> is, is still in question. But I doubt they want to deal with a fully powered TE in order to do whatever it is.

So... They want the Order to get to the gate. They want the order to defend the gate. They also want TE to arrive at the gate sometime later. This ensures that the two groups will fight. The two groups wont have a grand fight and weaken eachother if one of them gets wiped out by a dragon before hand.

My guess is the IFCC stays on the sidelines for this one. Well, unless Calder is somehow a part of their plans, that is (which I doubt, but you never know).

Given that the IFCC has two time-outs left with V, do you think both of those timeouts will be used in the same encounter? If the struggle over the gate is your first choice, what is your second choice for when to use a timeout? Feel free to be vague and theoretical.

Xykon and Redcloak were slapped down hard by an ancient Silver Dragon while being pretty fresh for the fight, so assuming no more Quinton, probably fairly well. Especially if Calder has some good spell resistance.

What if the Monster in the Dark weren't separated from Team Evil before the encounter?

[Unoriginal]

It is hard to tell the difference between mental stats. I see what Elen is saying to Biggest Red being tied to his intelligence not wisdom. Elen; to me, seems to have an okay wisdom. The opposite of his brother. Nale had goodish intelligence but bad wisdom. I figured as twins they had the same stats at level 1 with the exception of flipping intelligence and wisdom.
Elen with an 8 or 9int and 12 or 13 wisdom and Nale 12 or 13 int and 8 or 9 wisdom.

Elan has shown great intelligence and wisdom on specific subjects, and abysmal intelligence and wisdom on quite a lot more.

While Nale considers himself the smarter twin due to his ego, he has demonstrated the same kind of "great on some subjects, abysmal on others" capacities, so it is hard to say if his ego was correct on this point or not.

It's important to note that there was considered an incompetent buffoon by most, while Elan is not only described as a bardic genius by other bards, Thor himself makes reference to his narrative knowledge.

[Provengreil]

Elan has shown great intelligence and wisdom on specific subjects, and abysmal intelligence and wisdom on quite a lot more.

While Nale considers himself the smarter twin due to his ego, he has demonstrated the same kind of "great on some subjects, abysmal on others" capacities, so it is hard to say if his ego was correct on this point or not.

It's important to note that there was considered an incompetent buffoon by most, while Elan is not only described as a bardic genius by other bards, Thor himself makes reference to his narrative knowledge.

Wouldn't those be connected to bardic lore and therefore mostly related to his character level? I'm asking, I don't quite remember how it works.

[Kardwill]

A bit concerning is that we saw Belkar evade the fire breath, but I didn't see Bloodfeast or Mr Scruffy anywhere in the panel. Hopefully they're ok. Maybe they're hanging back? Or do they get an "evasion" too if Belkar succeeds and they're close enough to him?

They might get the old "The GM probably won't kill your familiar/pet/pony/plucky little sister sidekick unless you deliberately throw them in harm's way" evasion skill ^^

[Mordar]

Considering the Scribblers had a high level paladin, a high level barbarian, and three high-level casters, I think it's very likely that Calder lost a horn in that fight, yes. Although if I had to bet which one of them specifically was responsible I'd put my money on Soon or Kraagor, since they can hit like a truck. Even more than the spellcasters, as a matter of fact; while the effectiveness of direct damage spells is somewhat understated in the 3.5e optimization community, martials still outdamage them decisively in terms of damage-per-single-opponent. Especially since Soon has Smite Evil and Kraagor would probably be able to have like, Strength 26+.

I wondered...would the Scribble be working under AD&D given the time between their adventures and the rise of OotS? What a different fight that would be!

Honestly, I still have moral scruples against enslaving mortals with free will like that, especially if Calder's been awake for all or most of the time spent captured. But I think the practical arguments against using a red dragon of significant age as an unwilling miniboss encounter are strong enough for them to not be necessary in the first place.

Enslaved or imprisoned? Or are they the same in your opinion?

Anybody noticed arrows on the foreheads of the Cult's people?

I totally thought they were meant to be dragon claws/talons on their heads to represent that they are bound to/controlled by the marking dragon...pawns, if you will. Looking back, I am compelled to agree they are dragon motifs. Still conveys, but I would prefer claws over whole-dragon silhouette.

- M

[gbaji]

The diary contains the coordinates of the cliff where the many, many doors are. But as Serini herself says, that part isn't actually the Final Dungeon, and the Final Dungeon is where Kraagor's Gate is.

If Serini had noted the actual coordinates in the diary as she did for Girard's Gate, then Xykon and Co wouldn't be doing the "we need to check every doors" challenge right now, they'd have popped in as close to the Final Dungeon's Gate room as possible.

Ok. I think we're using the term "coordinates" in different ways. The coordinates were accurate in that they will get anyone using them directly to the "front door"/entrance to where the gate is. I'm not sure how much more accurate one needs to be. Also thinking you are assuming a coordinate system with far more granularity than is likely to be in effect here.

If she had actively lied about the location of the gates in her diary, then TE would have teleported into a random spot in the desert instead of within the blast radius of Girard's gate, and would then have teleported to a random spot in the icy noth, instead of right to the (very obvious) entrance(s) to the dungeon they were looking for.

Given that the IFCC has two time-outs left with V, do you think both of those timeouts will be used in the same encounter? If the struggle over the gate is your first choice, what is your second choice for when to use a timeout? Feel free to be vague and theoretical.

They only have one left that has a sufficiently long duration to really impact something major. What they do with the final (about two minute) one is up to them.

It's less a matter of "we have two, so why not use one now?" as "this isn't something they want the Order to lose, so why on earth try to make that happen?". Even a minor resource still has value, so why waste it on something completely useless? I can't guess what might happen, and neither can the IFCC, so I'd assume they'd keep the last one for a "WTF" condition (something unexpected comes up, where pulling V out for a couple minutes might help them).

That is *not* this fight (again, barring some other plan they have involving Calder, which I doubt).

[elros]

This is a tough battle for Calder, because it is a "kill box" and he loses out to action economy. I am not sure if the OOTS will find a way to subdue Calder, but I do not see it joining the OOTS to stop Xykon and team Evil. So the question is how many spells and other resources will OOTS use up?

[Kardwill]

This is a tough battle for Calder, because it is a "kill box" and he loses out to action economy. I am not sure if the OOTS will find a way to subdue Calder, but I do not see it joining the OOTS to stop Xykon and team Evil. So the question is how many spells and other resources will OOTS use up?

Ideally, this will not be a problem : Team Evil should be dungeon crawling for 2 days before they get to this one. Roy's plan was to rest at the gate, so that they will be "fresh" when fighting X and RC. That's the reason they left immediately after dinner.

Of course, that was the plan.
That just blew up in their face.

[Unoriginal]

Ok. I think we're using the term "coordinates" in different ways. The coordinates were accurate in that they will get anyone using them directly to the "front door"/entrance to where the gate is. I'm not sure how much more accurate one needs to be. Also thinking you are assuming a coordinate system with far more granularity than is likely to be in effect here.

Except Serini literally says that Kraagor's Gate isn't here.

The coordinates in the diary lead to a different place, aka the big puzzle-gauntlet of mini-dungeons.

It's not inaccuracy, it's deception.

I agree that it is a necessary step that will eventually allow someone to find the portal to the Final Dungeon if they do the correct things. But that's not the same as stating where the Final Dungeon or the Gate is.

If she had actively lied about the location of the gates in her diary, then TE would have teleported into a random spot in the desert instead of within the blast radius of Girard's gate, and would then have teleported to a random spot in the icy noth, instead of right to the (very obvious) entrance(s) to the dungeon they were looking for.

She did not lie about the locations of Lirian's, Dorukan's, Soon's or Girard's Gates.

If anything, Serini wrote the truth about where Kraagor's Tomb is, but Kraagor's Tomb and Kraagor's Gate aren't at the same place.

Ideally, this will not be a problem : Team Evil should be dungeon crawling for 2 days before they get to this one. Roy's plan was to rest at the gate, so that they will be "fresh" when fighting X and RC. That's the reason they left immediately after dinner.

Of course, that was the plan.
That just blew up in their face.

I wouldn't say it blew up in their face yet, it's just harder to reach the Gate than they hoped (but still less than they feared).

[Tzardok]

Wouldn't those be connected to bardic lore and therefore mostly related to his character level? I'm asking, I don't quite remember how it works.

Bardic Lore is more about remembering random trivia, at least by RAW. I don't think it includes literature analysis/trope awareness.

I wondered...would the Scribble be working under AD&D given the time between their adventures and the rise of OotS? What a different fight that would be!

- M

Unlikely. The Scribble have classes and class-race combinations that weren't legal in AD&D. Also, IIRC the gods reference 3.x rules in the scribbled flashbacks. Therefore it stands to reason that the world has always worked by 3.x rules, unless a joke requires that it didn't.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Many people are talking about the February entry of the 2015 calendar featuring Calder. Since the calendar itself has absolutely disappeared in the 9 year span, does anybody know where I can find the image in question?

[bunsen_h]

Calder's cult would fit in great with the hypothesized Wilderness Location at the North Pole that the Scribbles could have theoretically delved in their campaign. Not that there aren't any number of other theories that are plausible from the same evidence.

It seems unlikely to me that a red dragon, who's innately connected to fire and has penalties from cold, would choose to live at the north pole.

The only real worry I can see is what Sunny might do.

Would Calder's attack on Serini give Sunny another shot at a saving throw? Granted, vampire-Durkon using Kudzu as a shield didn't get Hilgya out of her Domination.

Minor error (probably) in panel 5: "I think we ALL could ALL use some more healing." Don't need all twice.

Make it "we-all could all use.

My take is that Calder was the litteral first monster to be trapped here (being defeated way before the Scribbles disbanded, and possibly being sealed on the spot), and thus that his prison was more rudimentary, only paralyzing him rather than a full stasis. And everytime they tried to tighten the cuffs, he took control of people and was only barely restrained again, hence the fight marks in the room.

Calder's comments on the previous page indicate that he was unsure of how much time had passed, so he appears to have been in stasis for at least part of it.

One. IIRC there's a rule you can't go up more than one level at a time. She'll wind up at 1 XP below the next level if she would go up multiple levels from a single encounter.

All she has to do then is some good emoting / role-playing to get that one point. She's dropped a few hints along the way about having unresolved issues.

Found it, first panel even. Thanks, I'd forgotten that one. (^_~)

When I'm trying to search for a page based on a few words of dialogue, I generally go to Google and search with the words and "site:oots.fandom.com" because all of the regular pages are transcribed there.

He's a problem that you throw at another problem so that you only have to worry about one by the end of things.

"'The victor would emerge stronger than either, and free from doubt,' said Gandalf."

Even the one-eyed cultist, despite lacking a hood, still don't allow to see it clearly (Also, he got the ᛋ scar on his forehead; "Yer a cultist, Harry"? )

Not exactly on his forehead; its lower end can be seen below the white cloth. It's presumably the same cut that took his eye.

I totally thought they were meant to be dragon claws/talons on their heads to represent that they are bound to/controlled by the marking dragon...pawns, if you will. Looking back, I am compelled to agree they are dragon motifs. Still conveys, but I would prefer claws over whole-dragon silhouette.

It might symbolize that the person's mind is under the shadow of the dragon.

[Peelee]

Many people are talking about the February entry of the 2015 calendar featuring Calder. Since the calendar itself has absolutely disappeared in the 9 year span, does anybody know where I can find the image in question?

It sometimes re-appears for sale as a digital item on the store in December.

[AstralFire]

This fight really makes you appreciate the art upgrade.

[KorvinStarmast]

It sometimes re-appears for sale as a digital item on the store in December.

I got the whole 'old calendar' pack digitally recently.
Enjoy all of them.
Not sure if it is available now in January.

[gbaji]

Except Serini literally says that Kraagor's Gate isn't here.

Unless I'm missing what you're quoting from, she actually says "this isn't the final dungeon". She's saying this specifically in response to assumptions that the final dungeon is where the party is, when they are, in fact, in "backstage".

There is no indication that the final dungeon, and the gate within, are not "here", where "here" is the "general geographical location containing the Hollow and all dungeons within.

The coordinates in the diary lead to a different place, aka the big puzzle-gauntlet of mini-dungeons.

That's not a "different place", anymore than my driveway is a "different place" than where the party I'm throwing is, when directing people to arrive at my house for said party. Certainly, if I gave directions (or coordinates even!) to my home, and those directions lead to the driveway in front of my home, no one would argue that I'd lied to the person about where my home was, or somehow was leading them to a "different place".

It's not inaccuracy, it's deception.

Huh? Sorry. I'm scratching my head over this one. She gave coordinates that lead directly to the Hollow, which contain the dungeon doors, through which one must explore in order to get to Kraagar's gate. How on earth is this "deception"?

The most you could argue is that her coordinates are "imprecise" in that they don't indicate the exact to the foot location of the room in the Final Dungeon in which the actual gate is contained. But again, the coordinates were to Kraagar's Tomb, which holds/secures the gate, not directly to the gate itself.

She did not lie about the locations of Lirian's, Dorukan's, Soon's or Girard's Gates.

Ok. And when TE arrived at Girard's Pyramid", where did they appear? We have to assume they teleported in using the coordinates that Sereni provided them for "Girard's Pyramid". And... shockingly enough, they appear right outside "Girard's Pyramid". So... If this is her not lying about the locations of the other gates, and the coordinates provided sent them to the location just outside the entrance to the Pyramid, deep within which is the actual room with the actual gate, then how is doing the exact same thing with coordinates to "Kraagar's Tomb", somehow lying?

If anything, Serini wrote the truth about where Kraagor's Tomb is, but Kraagor's Tomb and Kraagor's Gate aren't at the same place.

Kraagar's Gate is in the same location as Kraagar's Tomb in the same way that Girard's Gate was in the same location as Girard's Pyramid.


You seem to be so fixated on the difference of the Tomb versus the Gate, that you've forgotten that the same difference exists for all of the other locations written in Serni's journal. There is no deception here. The journal tells you where to go to find each of the gates. How you get through the defenses around each one, is a completely separate matter.

[Argok]

Many people are talking about the February entry of the 2015 calendar featuring Calder. Since the calendar itself has absolutely disappeared in the 9 year span, does anybody know where I can find the image in question?

https://richburlew.gumroad.com/l/calbundleall

You can buy all the old ones as digital right now from Rich's Gumroad store.

[dmc91356]

Nice! Just bought that bundle.

[Aquillion]

I"m going to hazard a guess that beating this dragon that took all of the Scribblers to take down last time is what will make serini respect the crew.

I mean... assuming she survives. Right now the OOTS has a lot of advantages, perhaps too many for a proper final battle. Having her die here would mean they'd have to figure out their own way to the gate.

[Unoriginal]

Unless I'm missing what you're quoting from, she actually says "this isn't the final dungeon". She's saying this specifically in response to assumptions that the final dungeon is where the party is, when they are, in fact, in "backstage".

There is no indication that the final dungeon, and the gate within, are not "here", where "here" is the "general geographical location containing the Hollow and all dungeons within.

Serini literally says "here, away from Kraagor's Gate."

Huh? Sorry. I'm scratching my head over this one. She gave coordinates that lead directly to the Hollow, which contain the dungeon doors, through which one must explore in order to get to Kraagar's gate. How on earth is this "deception"?

Because Kraagor's Gate is not at the coordinate she has given.

"This is where the portal to X is" is not the same as "this is where X is".

The most you could argue is that her coordinates are "imprecise" in that they don't indicate the exact to the foot location of the room in the Final Dungeon in which the actual gate is contained. But again, the coordinates were to Kraagar's Tomb, which holds/secures the gate

It doesn't.

Kraagor's Tomb is a decoy for Kraagor's Gate.

It's not imprecise, it's deliberate obfuscation.

As Roy puts it, it is a shell game.



I don't see why the concept of an Epid Level Rogue, who explained setting the whole "multiple layers of deception" thing to discourage people from finding the actual McGuffin, being deceptive is generating such a debate.

[Mordar]

Because Kraagor's Gate is not at the coordinate she has given.

"This is where the portal to X is" is not the same as "this is where X is".

Maybe the coordinates are insufficiently precise? Saying the "Gate is in Hex BB-0100" can absolutely be true, even if it is not the only thing in the hex...and that the "travel" spot for that hex is right in the middle.

The imprecision could be purposeful, or it could just be the limitation of the system to measure/report.

If one were to intentionally obfuscate, why put it so close to a viable entrance?

- M

[whitehelm]

Serini literally says "here, away from Kraagor's Gate."

No, she literally said "out here, away from Kraagor's Gate", which indicates that the gate is "in there". She's just saying the Gate isn't in the backstage area.

[brian 333]

Much was made of the fact that Xykon didn't know exactly where Soon's gate was untll he scried on Miko. It seems of the three coordinates we know of from Serini's diaru, none were to the exact location of any gate. All three appear to precisely identify the location of the entrance to the gate defences.

Deception?