STR-based Archery (3.PF)

[Ignimortis]

Heyo, Playground.

Is there anything to support STR-based archery in 3.PF? Namely, making bows use STR for attacks? All I could find was the Sanguine Angel PRC, which is both not great and highly limited.

Major 3pp for PF1 acceptable, like DSP content.

[Anthrowhale]

The Brutal Throw feat allows you to use Str instead of Dex with thrown weapons. It's not the range of a bow, but it's decent for most encounters, particularly if you can also afford the Far Shot feat. Potentially, you can even get substantial range via Polymorph[Stone Giant] for Rock Throwing.

[Zanos]

You can combo brutal throw with improved rock hurling if you have 23 str and large size. A bit expensive on feats, but 2d6+str damage with an 80 ft range increment, with str to hit. I used it on awakened skeleton giant so they could throw cannonballs at flying enemies. You can take power throw as well for what is basically power attack, but the ratio is bad compared to two handing.

[Anthrowhale]

Power Throw seems pretty useful if you are using Master Thrower 5 to get touch attacks.

[Prime32]

The Brutal Throw feat allows you to use Str instead of Dex with thrown weapons. It's not the range of a bow, but it's decent for most encounters, particularly if you can also afford the Far Shot feat. Potentially, you can even get substantial range via Polymorph[Stone Giant] for Rock Throwing.

Through a technicality, this allows you to use Str instead of Dex with crossbows - specifically the Icechucker from Frostburn when used to shoot javelins. It's... not very good though; you're better off just throwing the javelins normally, even if you somehow get icechucker proficiency for free.

[Saintheart]

The Brutal Throw feat allows you to use Str instead of Dex with thrown weapons. It's not the range of a bow, but it's decent for most encounters, particularly if you can also afford the Far Shot feat. Potentially, you can even get substantial range via Polymorph[Stone Giant] for Rock Throwing.

Can I mention the Atlatl from Sandstorm. Yes, it's only 1d4 damage, but it's a martial weapon and the range increment is 50 feet, which is a decent base for a throwing weapon. Most significantly, the text description calls it a cross between a projectile weapon and a thrown weapon, which is significant because by RAW certain archery-based things (like Deepwood Sniper) apply to projectile weapons but not thrown stuff.

[Anthrowhale]

Can I mention the Atlatl from Sandstorm. Yes, it's only 1d4 damage, but it's a martial weapon and the range increment is 50 feet, which is a decent base for a throwing weapon. Most significantly, the text description calls it a cross between a projectile weapon and a thrown weapon, which is significant because by RAW certain archery-based things (like Deepwood Sniper) apply to projectile weapons but not thrown stuff.

The Atlatl text doesn't describe the load time so it plausibly counts as "manipulating an item" making it a move action.

Personally I like the Eberron boomerangs so you can benefit from Boomerang Daze. Daze is a great debuff as nothing is immune by type and you can clearly quickdraw for iteratives. Boomerang Daze better than most sources of daze since the save DC scales with damage.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hmm. Brutal Throw might work with an an aptitude weapon, since Brutal Throw specifies one type of weapon (thrown), and aptitude allows you to utilize such feats with the adjunct weapon. See your DM for details.

Are there any feats or other abilities that allow you to use your relevant casting ability score on ranged attack rolls? Because changing your casting stat to Strength (via aeshkrau illumian, say, or the Lost Tradition feat, from Bastards & Bloodlines) would net you that, even if you only had a single spell to cast.

[Ignimortis]

Re: thrown weapons, yeah, there's tons of stuff that lets you throw stuff with Strength. But somehow the archetype of a brute of an archer with a bow as tall as they are is basically unsupported without going "just max out STR and DEX both".

Hmm. Brutal Throw might work with an an aptitude weapon, since Brutal Throw specifies one type of weapon (thrown), and aptitude allows you to utilize such feats with the adjunct weapon. See your DM for details.

Are there any feats or other abilities that allow you to use your relevant casting ability score on ranged attack rolls? Because changing your casting stat to Strength (via aeshkrau illumian, say, or the Lost Tradition feat, from Bastards & Bloodlines) would net you that, even if you only had a single spell to cast.

Now both of these are interesting lines of research. Aptitude might work, and the cheesiness of this particular trick is rather diminished by the fact that keying everything off STR isn't exactly a great choice, especially since you could make a switch-hitter that barely cares about STR too and has all the benefits of high DEX.

[pabelfly]

Re: thrown weapons, yeah, there's tons of stuff that lets you throw stuff with Strength. But somehow the archetype of a brute of an archer with a bow as tall as they are is basically unsupported without going "just max out STR and DEX both".

You can make the high STR bowman work, you're just trading or minimizing DEX loss and reduced accuracy with increased damage with each shot. Fortunately, STR is probably the easiest stat to boost.

[Saintheart]

Hmm. Brutal Throw might work with an an aptitude weapon, since Brutal Throw specifies one type of weapon (thrown), and aptitude allows you to utilize such feats with the adjunct weapon. See your DM for details.

Are there any feats or other abilities that allow you to use your relevant casting ability score on ranged attack rolls? Because changing your casting stat to Strength (via aeshkrau illumian, say, or the Lost Tradition feat, from Bastards & Bloodlines) would net you that, even if you only had a single spell to cast.

Re: thrown weapons, yeah, there's tons of stuff that lets you throw stuff with Strength. But somehow the archetype of a brute of an archer with a bow as tall as they are is basically unsupported without going "just max out STR and DEX both".


Now both of these are interesting lines of research. Aptitude might work, and the cheesiness of this particular trick is rather diminished by the fact that keying everything off STR isn't exactly a great choice, especially since you could make a switch-hitter that barely cares about STR too and has all the benefits of high DEX.

I don't want to be That Guy, but "thrown weapons" is not a type of weapon as Aptitude contemplates it, or at least that's how I'd be likely ruling it. An Aptitude weapon's benefit is "A wielder who has feats that affect the use of a particular type of weapon, such as Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or the like, can apply the benefits of those feats to any weapon that has the aptitude quality."

The context being that feats like Weapon Focus ask you to select a particular type of weapon as "longsword" or "dagger" or whatever. You don't get Weapon Focus (thrown weapon), you get Weapon Focus (large bucket of manure) or such. Aptitude keys off feats applicable to a single weapon, not a large category of weapons. Hence why Lightning Maces can be Aptitude'd but Boomerang Daze arguably can't: Lightning Mace is a single weapon type, Boomerang Daze applies to two types of boomerang when you read the feat. Hell, even Roundabout Kick can't be Aptitude'd because there's more than one kind of unarmed attack: the Commoner's 1d3 headbutt and the monk's Unarmed Strike.

"Type" is one of those words like "damage": WOTC defined it fairly closely to start with and then forgot about how tight those definitions were in, oh, every book after the PHB and DMG...


As for feats that shift your casting stat to attack rolls, there's Intuitive Attack (CCHamp) which subs out STR for WIS on attack rolls with Simple weapons. Simple weapons include javelins, spears, and shortspears, which are all thrown weapons.

[GeneticBow23190]

Allowing Pathfinder 1e too correct? Then the 'Sanguine Angel' (just search it up but the book its from is Adventurer's Guide pg. 80) prestige class with the 'Furious Huntress' ability fits perfectly. XD
Have fun if this is going to see play.

EDIT: I didn't see you already knew of Sanguine Angel my bad.

[Rebel7284]

Composite bows?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Brutal Throw along with Throwing (and Distance) on one of the melee ends of an elvencraft longbow? You're making ranged attacks with a longbow, using Str for both attack and damage...

[Pugwampy]

Composite bows?

My first answer too .

Also why does the OP want to know this ?

[Prime32]

Bloodstorm Blade^ToB has an alternate class called Stonestorm Striker which applies its class features to slings (including "resolve your ranged attacks like melee attacks") and can reload slings with one hand as a free action. It's not a bow, but it is a projectile weapon using ammunition (meaning a lot of bow support still works).

Races of the Wild has two exotic weapons as further upgrades - the War Sling (1d8/x4) and Skiprock (thrown weapon that strikes two adjacent creatures, can be combined with war sling). A Targeteer^Dr310 fighter works well for this, getting both proficiencies for free as well as the option for boosted critical threat range. Funnily enough, you can take Weapon Focus (bow) to enter Deepwood Sniper and then use Stonestorm Striker's Weapon Aptitude class feature to retrain it into Weapon Focus (war sling).

[Forrestfire]

Bloodstorm Blade can do some silly things with elvencraft shortbows, arguably!

Unlike something like a bayonet, elvencraft bows from Races of the Wild are their alternate weapon. An elvencraft shortbow is a club, an elvencraft longbow is a quarterstaff.

Bloodstorm Blade's thunderous throw ability has this to say:

Thunderous Throw (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, you build up incredible tension as you ready yourself to throw your weapon, which becomes visible around you like heat waves. When you release your weapon, that power rushes out with your weapon. As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your melee attack bonus, including Strength bonus, feats, and so forth, to determine your attack bonus for each attack as normal, but you apply the standard modifiers for range penalties. Attacking into melee, through cover, and so forth incurs the standard penalties. In addition, you can apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage if you wield the thrown weapon with two hands, and you can use Power Attack with your thrown weapon attacks (adding two times the number subtracted from attack rolls as a bonus on damage rolls when throwing a twohanded weapon).

Because clubs are thrown weapons, elvencraft shortbows are (arguably) thrown weapons, and a shot with an elvencraft shortbow in projectile mode is a "ranged attack roll with [a] thrown weapon." Thus, by using a swift action, you can exploit this interaction to have fully Strength-based bow attacks. Since you're holding the bow in two hands, you can probably get 1.5 Str to damage, too!

It becomes shakier with the elvencraft longbow. A Bloodstorm Blade has the Throw Anything feat, which says "you can throw a melee weapon you are proficient with as if it were a ranged weapon." However, the distinction between "you can throw a melee weapon" and "that melee weapon is a thrown weapon" is possibly relevant. The rules for weapons define the club as a thrown weapon ("Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons."), but the same can't be said of Throw Anything'd weapons. So, just use a shortbow since the argument is much stronger there.

Is this intended? Absolutely not. Is there an argument for its functionality by RAW? Yeah. If your DM accepts it, you can take two levels of Bloodstorm Blade and get your Strength-based archery. As far as I am aware, there is no other way to really get that functionality other than aptitude weapons and Brutal Throw, which is a little shakier by RAW and frankly, aptitude weapons are kinda wonky in the first place.

[Saintheart]

A Bloodstorm Blade has the Throw Anything feat, which says "you can throw a melee weapon you are proficient with as if it were a ranged weapon." However, the distinction between "you can throw a melee weapon" and "that melee weapon is a thrown weapon" is possibly relevant. The rules for weapons define the club as a thrown weapon ("Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons."), but the same can't be said of Throw Anything'd weapons. So, just use a shortbow since the argument is much stronger there.

Is this intended? Absolutely not. Is there an argument for its functionality by RAW? Yeah. If your DM accepts it, you can take two levels of Bloodstorm Blade and get your Strength-based archery. As far as I am aware, there is no other way to really get that functionality other than aptitude weapons and Brutal Throw, which is a little shakier by RAW and frankly, aptitude weapons are kinda wonky in the first place.

This is always a really interesting/frustrating debate because of WOTC's loose definitions and poor sentence structure. I like to induce grinding of teeth by asking whether Point Blank Shot applies to melee strikes with a dagger, since a dagger is ranged weapon by virtue of being a thrown weapon and Point Blank Shot applies its benefits to ranged weapons rather than ranged attacks.

But anyway.

When it comes to thrown weapons and whatnot, we've got the SRD:

Melee and Ranged Weapons
Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

Therefore, ranged weapons incorporate two categories:
(1) thrown weapons; and
(2) Projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

(And you can even parse that sentence differently, too, to mean:
Ranged weapons are
(1) thrown weapons that aren't effective in melee; and
(2) projectile weapons that aren't effective in melee.
Which would hilariously exclude the dagger from being a thrown weapon, since a dagger is effective in melee).


What's a thrown weapon?

Thrown Weapons
Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll.

The way I read that is that thrown weapons are:
(1) all the sample weapons mentioned from daggers to nets; and
(2) weapons designed to be thrown - i.e. those with a Range Increment.

If something falls within that definition, it's a thrown weapon. And if it's a thrown weapon, it's a ranged weapon.

Throw Anything (at least the CWar version) says: You can throw a melee weapon you are proficient with as if it were a ranged weapon. The range increment of weapons used in conjunction with this feat is 10 feet.

If it's got a range increment in its entry, it's designed to be thrown and is therefore a thrown weapon. Throw Anything treats Ye Olde Greatsword 'as if' it were a ranged weapon, and gives it a range increment to facilitate it being a thrown weapon, because it's self-evidently not a projectile weapon such as a bow, arrow, sling, stone, etc.

Thunderous Throw then builds on that by allowing you to basically apply all your melee bonuses to your ranged attacks. Ye Olde Greatsword is still a thrown weapon; it's still taking ranged attacks, right down to taking penalties for range.

[Ignimortis]

Composite bows?

Do not get STR to hit with, only damage. Otherwise it'd be a non-question, obviously.

My first answer too .

Also why does the OP want to know this ?

Because getting to drop STR completely and just using DEX for to-hit and damage works for melee weapons in tons of ways across the whole 3.PF. Shadow Blade, Unchained Rogue, a variety of feats (Fencing Grace, Slashing Grace, etc), possibly more stuff that I can't recall off-hand, and "approved 3PP" has both Deadly Agility and Stalker's Killer's Implements (which is ridiculous, since you can have a DEX greatsword with it if you wish).

However, ranged fighting does not get anything of the sort outside of thrown weapons. As far as I was aware, there's no straightforward/decently non-restrictive way to get STR to attack with bows (or crossbows or guns, for that matter).

Bloodstorm Blade can do some silly things with elvencraft shortbows, arguably!

Unlike something like a bayonet, elvencraft bows from Races of the Wild are their alternate weapon. An elvencraft shortbow is a club, an elvencraft longbow is a quarterstaff.

Bloodstorm Blade's thunderous throw ability has this to say:



Because clubs are thrown weapons, elvencraft shortbows are (arguably) thrown weapons, and a shot with an elvencraft shortbow in projectile mode is a "ranged attack roll with [a] thrown weapon." Thus, by using a swift action, you can exploit this interaction to have fully Strength-based bow attacks. Since you're holding the bow in two hands, you can probably get 1.5 Str to damage, too!

It becomes shakier with the elvencraft longbow. A Bloodstorm Blade has the Throw Anything feat, which says "you can throw a melee weapon you are proficient with as if it were a ranged weapon." However, the distinction between "you can throw a melee weapon" and "that melee weapon is a thrown weapon" is possibly relevant. The rules for weapons define the club as a thrown weapon ("Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons."), but the same can't be said of Throw Anything'd weapons. So, just use a shortbow since the argument is much stronger there.

Is this intended? Absolutely not. Is there an argument for its functionality by RAW? Yeah. If your DM accepts it, you can take two levels of Bloodstorm Blade and get your Strength-based archery. As far as I am aware, there is no other way to really get that functionality other than aptitude weapons and Brutal Throw, which is a little shakier by RAW and frankly, aptitude weapons are kinda wonky in the first place.

Whew. That is a hilarious piece of RAW and could possibly work out, too. The DM is a reasonable sort and may allow it (although I suspect that upon seeing the thought process for this he'd throw his hands up and say "just homebrew a goddamn feat, it's not like it's gonna break anything").