OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread

[Precure]

Soon had nothing to do with Calder's sealing, as as per Serini's comments he didn't contribute anything to this dungeon and its defenses.

[Unoriginal]

Soon had nothing to do with Calder's sealing, as as per Serini's comments he didn't contribute anything to this dungeon and its defenses.

Caldet blames the whole group for his imprisonment. And explicitly says that the imprisonment is a consequence of surrendering.

"Soon convinced us to spare that Dragon one time, so we sealed him, then I took the idea and ran with it for my dungeon" does not mean Serini considers Soon contributed.

[Bookwyrm13]

I'm curious about the timeline of events, here. Presumably Calder was defeated before the Scribbles broke up, but what happened in between? Was he put in a big dragon-sized prison and Serini (and Dorukan, presumably) came back to trap him later? Or was he put in stasis and then moved to the Tomb? Or did construction on the Gate defenses begin before the falling out? Or a fourth option I'm not thinking of?

[Tzardok]

I'm curious about the timeline of events, here. Presumably Calder was defeated before the Scribbles broke up, but what happened in between? Was he put in a big dragon-sized prison and Serini (and Dorukan, presumably) came back to trap him later? Or was he put in stasis and then moved to the Tomb? Or did construction on the Gate defenses begin before the falling out? Or a fourth option I'm not thinking of?

I'm currently assuming that Calder laired in the vicinity of the rift, either intentionally or by accident, and the Final Dungeon was built around the site of his defeat and sealing because they were already close to each other.

[Belsirk]

Willingly suspension of disbelief.

Amen!

But to be frank, is the first time I saw Belkar having so many daggers He truly got ready for the Non-Durkon

[Unoriginal]

I'm curious about the timeline of events, here. Presumably Calder was defeated before the Scribbles broke up, but what happened in between? Was he put in a big dragon-sized prison and Serini (and Dorukan, presumably) came back to trap him later? Or was he put in stasis and then moved to the Tomb? Or did construction on the Gate defenses begin before the falling out? Or a fourth option I'm not thinking of?

Important to note that while we don't know how long it took, there was a certain amount of time between "the Order of the Scribble seals the last Rift" and "the Order of the Scribble build the first Gate". And they managed to work together until the last Gate was finished.

Furthermore, the construction of the Dungeon of Dorukan was done during the "building the Gates" period, and the Final Dungeon is very similar in term of architectural features, so it's likely it was built at the same time.

So one way or another we're looking at long period between "Calder is defeated by the Order, before Kraagor's death" and "Serini takes on defending her Gate".

I think it makes more sense if he was put in stasis immediately after his defeat and put in the dungeon later (either by displacing him or by building the dungeon around his prison).

[Faldrath]

I'm not sure if anyone has made this point, but if it was indeed spell resistance that allowed Calder to remain conscious... he's unlikely to be the *only* monster with high spell resistance in the dungeon. Since there has been speculation that there is a "final" encounter with something really special, well, it wouldn't surprise me to see that final encounter having high spell resistance and then being really, really angry, even if it went into stasis willingly.

[KorvinStarmast]

Vaarsuvius is True Neutral after making a deal with devils to wipe out 25% of a species's population

No. Before that V was TN. V headed toward evil with Familicide, which the deva tried to warn Roy about before he left Celestia. Belkar greeted V at that point into the deep end of the alignment pool.

I'm not one to make excuses the evil red dragon either way.

What amazes me is that there are people who do.

[Tzardok]

No. Before that V was TN. V headed toward evil with Familicide, which the deva tried to warn Roy about before he left Celestia. Belkar greeted V at that point into the deep end of the alignment pool.

Belkar inferred from the Darth Varsuvius outfit and is not necessarily an authority. And the deva spoke specifically of "moving into the direction of Evil". The way I see it, V is on a precipice. They may still retreat to Neutrality if they manage to repent. If V didn't regret, then the Fall would be certain.

Part of the problem here is that Stickworld apparantly differentiates between "official" alignment, which is what the character has on the "character sheet" and actually decides how stuff interacts with them, and "final" alignment, which is the "true" alingment, is only determined after death and decides which afterlife you get.

[Liquor Box]

I have to point out that Spell Resistance can be lowered by the being who has it.

So if Calder surrendered, the Order of the Scribble discussed how to imprison him between themselves, then Dorukan made the magic circles to seal him...

Well, that means Calder was resisting imprisonment. Which is a violation of one's surrender.

Calder was just unlucky that him resisting worked on the part supposed to keep him uncounscious and not the part supposed to keep him unable to move.

It was negligent to not check, probably, but Calder could still have communicate telepathically with a fairly decent range, or at least done a mental attack, to signal he was actually conscious, after Dorukan finished the work and the Order was walking away.

So in other words, if he was conscious the whole time, Calder had to deliberately resist the spell AND not tell his captors the spell had failed.

Also, I don't quite understand how spell resistance worked here. It seems that Calder is saying that his body was effectively paralyzed by the stasis spell, but his consciousness wasn't suspended at the same time. So the spell resistance prevented some aspects of the spell, but not others.

This, to me, indicates that the Red Dragon was planning to break out as soon as the coast was clear... and then discovered he couldn't.[/QUOTE]

[The MunchKING]

The implication to me is there were two spells, a "physically keep you bound in this circle" spell and a stasis spell that was supposed to shut him off. He made his spell resistance check against the stasis spell and thus was conscious, but didn't save against the binding circle so he was still stuck in there.

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar inferred from the Darth Varsuvius outfit and is not necessarily an authority.

I disagree. Belkar has been consistent throughout the comic as a truth teller (the inconvenient truth) in his own sarcastic voice and style.

And the deva spoke specifically of "moving into the direction of Evil".

Which if we look at the two axis alignment model (not that stupid nine square grid) menas that tye left the very narrow TN zone where X and Y axes intersect and moved somewhere toward the E terminus of the axis. How far is arguable.

Part of the problem here is

The 3.x forgot about the graph.

Spoiler: What graph

Show

Go here and look at page 4
https://annarchive.com/files/Strv201.pdf

[Liquor Box]

The implication to me is there were two spells, a "physically keep you bound in this circle" spell and a stasis spell that was supposed to shut him off. He made his spell resistance check against the stasis spell and thus was conscious, but didn't save against the binding circle so he was still stuck in there.

But if he was able to act, but was stuck within the circle, saying "trap me in own body" is a bit of an odd thing to say.

[The MunchKING]

But if he was able to act, but was stuck within the circle, saying "trap me in own body" is a bit of an odd thing to say.

True. It might have been more of a paralysis thing...

[TheNecrocomicon]

The only two times the Order of the Stick (as a group) had to deal with defeated bad guys they didn't want to kill, they also resorted to indefinite imprisonment.

Samantha and her father were left tied up in a forest, unable to defend themselves. It was understood they'd break out eventually, but how long it'd take was none of the Order's concern and the two bandits could easily have been found by an Owlbear or other hungry creatures before they'd manage.

Meanwhile, for the Linear Guild, the OotS decided to stick them in antimagic cells with no defined end to their imprisonment.

I fail to see how it's better than what the Order of the Scribble wanted to do with Calder.

There's all kinds of difference between things like just leaving people tied up long enough for the party to get away and not be bothered by them again, or lawful imprisonment by the authorities of an area where people had actually committed crimes, versus indefinite indentured servitude as a stasis-bound dungeon guardian.

The two bandits (IIRC) and definitely the Linear Guild were people who had in fact committed heinous criminal acts and deserved imprisonment or were too dangerous to leave at large. And even then, besides the straight-up confinement, in neither case did this involve torture or anything equivalent to it. Meanwhile, decades spent locked in stasis could very well have driven Calder insane with rage, which even someone with a penchant for enthralling cultists does not necessarily deserve.

Also, I'm going by the principle discussed in the scene with Roy and his Deva in the afterlife that it's not just individual acts that matter, but the bigger picture. Roy was allowed to stay under Lawful Good because, as imperfect and sometimes borderline as he got, what matters is that he led himself and the rest of the OotS in a good-aligned and order-aligned direction overall.

It seems to me that the Scribblers walked a more morally ambiguous and neutral path on the spectrum of adventuring parties we've seen, not only because of things like subduing and repurposing a powerful red dragon, but also they simply exhibited more self-centered jerkassery to each other. They couldn't put individual desires secondary to working as a team. They were driven by an all-encompassing objective of preserving the world from the Rifts and the Snarl, but allowed morally grey things to happen on their watch as they pursued that goal.

[Mic_128]

I mean they've already SAID they've made the body indestructible, the rest is just whether or not someone can take over it.

Which, again, they have already SAID that doing so would violate the contract.

[The MunchKING]

Which, again, they have already SAID that doing so would violate the contract.

No, they said THEM putting another soul in it would be a violation. They didn't make any promises on behalf of anyone else.

[Psychronia]

It seems to me that the Scribblers walked a more morally ambiguous and neutral path on the spectrum of adventuring parties we've seen, not only because of things like subduing and repurposing a powerful red dragon, but also they simply exhibited more self-centered jerkassery to each other. They couldn't put individual desires secondary to working as a team. They were driven by an all-encompassing objective of preserving the world from the Rifts and the Snarl, but allowed morally grey things to happen on their watch as they pursued that goal.

On that subject, does this new comic strip imply that Subdual was not how the Scribble took down Calder? Because they seemed pretty content to go for lethal damage until he surrendered-and I assume more people than Sereni were down to just kill him.


Though now that I think about it, I'm kinda curious how the party individually weighed in on the situation. I was gonna say Giriard is the sort of paranoid who'd kill the enemy just to be safe, but there's his draconic bloodline which could push his stance in either direction. Dorukan could be neutral or have an academic curiosity. Considering Lirian spared Xykon...well...

[bunsen_h]

No, they said THEM putting another soul in it would be a violation. They didn't make any promises on behalf of anyone else.

I would certainly count it as injurious if my body were to be used for purposes antithetical to my own desires and nature, even if it took no direct hurt.

[The MunchKING]

I would certainly count it as injurious if my body were to be used for purposes antithetical to my own desires and nature, even if it took no direct hurt.

Yeah but V sold her soul to fiends, she's already acting antithetical to her desires and nature.

[LuckyTheOrc]

Yeah but V sold her soul to fiends, she's already acting antithetical to her desires and nature.

Technically true, but I think it's beside the point.

V made a deal to trade possession of their soul for X amount of time in exchange for power.

That's the extent of the terms and conditions they were aware of at the time.

When the fiends yoinked the soul early to keep from destroying the gate, that was a surprise as the fiends had mislead through omission. Anything they advise V after that is explanation from an source already confirmed to be deceptive. It might be true, false, or deceptive.

When they say "putting another soul in your body would be a violation of our contract" it could be completely true, it could be misleading as they intend to have Sabine do it and thus not technically them or a violation, they could be bull****ting V entirely.

When they say V's body is shielded from all harm, that's not remotely implied by their original terms. To whatever extent V's body is shielded from harm, it's purely for the fiends' benefit and to the extent it benefits the fiends. I don't think it's necessary to split hairs about what counts as harm when the prohibition against harm is a post-facto addition by proven deceitful and self-interested parties.

[H_H_F_F]

This strip tells us that Calder was paralyzed but conscious, which means it was telepathy that allowed him to contact Sunny. To me, that's enough evidence to conclude that the 'mindbender' quip referred to an actual level in mindbender.

The polar ray sure seems like released ocular spells, and that's the sort of detail Rich is usually good with. Downsides: it'd be two 10th level slots without metamagic cost reduction (not that hard to accomplish, but still), and it'd be at the very very least 32d6 damage, likely more. Roy could've taken it in stride, but V would've been immediately dead, I think. Unless their Con is way better than previously assumed.

Speaking of V, I think the whole discussion about the fiends lying to them doesn't really work. Catching them on a technicality? Obviously. Straight up lying? At that point, they could've just permanently talen over V, and of story.

Any thoughts on how Calder got rid of his cold vulnerability?

[Tzardok]

The Draconomicon includes a feat Overcome Weakness, which removes Vulnerability to an energy.

[gerryq]

Yeah, but Seirini flat out said to Calder that there were no paladins there to save him this time. That gives the impression she deliberately kept them out of it. No way she could forget they even existed.

That was my take too. But if she left them behind by accident, she should remember there are a couple of extra party members pretty soon. But then again, somebody should anyway.

[Kardwill]

The thing with Faustian bargains is you expect the devil to screw you over technicalities while still strictly adhering to the terms of the agreement. Having the devil straight up lie to your face about the terms kinda defeats the purpose

But sure, hypothetically speaking the archfiends could be lying

Yes, "We didn't say when we would take over your soul" is the kind of obvious-in-retrospect loophole that fit a "deal with the devil" story. Taking over his body when they explicitly said they would not do it. It isn't a loophole to the contract, but an entirely new clause that didn't exist when the contract was sealed. It lacks narrative elegance.

[danielxcutter]

This strip tells us that Calder was paralyzed but conscious, which means it was telepathy that allowed him to contact Sunny. To me, that's enough evidence to conclude that the 'mindbender' quip referred to an actual level in mindbender.

The polar ray sure seems like released ocular spells, and that's the sort of detail Rich is usually good with. Downsides: it'd be two 10th level slots without metamagic cost reduction (not that hard to accomplish, but still), and it'd be at the very very least 32d6 damage, likely more. Roy could've taken it in stride, but V would've been immediately dead, I think. Unless their Con is way better than previously assumed.

Speaking of V, I think the whole discussion about the fiends lying to them doesn't really work. Catching them on a technicality? Obviously. Straight up lying? At that point, they could've just permanently talen over V, and of story.

Any thoughts on how Calder got rid of his cold vulnerability?

Ocular Spell is a metamagic feat that lets you store a spell as a ray in your eye, so it can't be that because he just said "Polar Ray" - if he'd said nothing or said "Ocular Polar Ray" I'd believe it, but in this case I think it's just a neat way to portray it.

[BloodSquirrel]

When they say "putting another soul in your body would be a violation of our contract" it could be completely true, it could be misleading as they intend to have Sabine do it and thus not technically them or a violation, they could be bull****ting V entirely.

This actually depends somewhat on the mechanics involved. If the fiends need a contract in the first place to take someone's soul, then it implies that there are forces which prevent them from removing souls at will, and such mechanics could also make things like putting a soul in other people's bodies impossible without their consent. In order for putting a different soul in V's body to be a "gross violation of their contract" it would either have to be something that they have a specific clause forbidding or something that they would need a specific clause to allow. Since it doesn't appear to be the former, the latter must be true, and thus Sabine would not be able to do it on her own.

Let's say you had a contract with an employer that demanded that you be at a work location for a specific period of time. It would be a "violation of your contract" for your employer to send someone to occupy your house while you were there, even if you contract doesn't mention anything about it, because entering someone's house without permission is illegal to start with. The contract doesn't allow them to do it, without a clause specifying otherwise. They couldn't "get around" this by having a third party enter your house instead.

So either the "putting another soul in your body would be a violation of our contract" line is a complete lie, there is an unmentioned clause which forbids it (which wouldn't make sense, because why would they put that in there if V wasn't even thinking to ask for it?), or they would need an express clause allowing it, in which case Sabine can't do it on her own.

Of course, it could turn out to be that there is an obscure "law" that this contract creates a loophole for, but that wouldn't be very narratively interesting, since it would mean that what they can or can't do is dependent on knowledge that is inaccessible to the audience, making everything that happens functionally random. It's hard for me to see how it could be any kind of clever misdirection when we don't know enough about how this stuff works for it to feel like we were being misdirected instead of just being lied to.

So all of this is to say that there's no real narrative function to the line other than to tell us that it's something that they can't do.

[H_H_F_F]

Ocular Spell is a metamagic feat that lets you store a spell as a ray in your eye, so it can't be that because he just said "Polar Ray" - if he'd said nothing or said "Ocular Polar Ray" I'd believe it, but in this case I think it's just a neat way to portray it.

That's another point in favor of it not being ocular spell, but I'm unsure it's conclusive. We've never seen a spell stylized like that before, and we've seen dragon-casting before. The spell looking precisely like what an ocular spell would do (including shooting two rays rather than one, with one action) is surprising.

I think there's a real case for both possibilities.

[Tubercular Ox]

The polar ray sure seems like released ocular spells, and that's the sort of detail Rich is usually good with. Downsides: it'd be two 10th level slots without metamagic cost reduction (not that hard to accomplish, but still), and it'd be at the very very least 32d6 damage, likely more. Roy could've taken it in stride, but V would've been immediately dead, I think. Unless their Con is way better than previously assumed.

Also, Calder would have to cast Ocular Polar Ray twice in the previous 8 hours before releasing the spells on V. If Rich wanted to do a "Stasis stops feat timers" thing then Calder could've done it decades ago, but it's not something I'm ready to assume yet.

Ocular Spell has a lot of difficulties, but the description of Polar Ray actually says in the first sentence that it comes from your hand, so I'm not super happy to just give up and say it was art style. Maybe there's another excuse out there for shooting rays from your eyes. It's hard to search for.

[bunsen_h]

That's another point in favor of it not being ocular spell, but I'm unsure it's conclusive. We've never seen a spell stylized like that before, and we've seen dragon-casting before. The spell looking precisely like what an ocular spell would do (including shooting two rays rather than one, with one action) is surprising.

I think there's a real case for both possibilities.

I think that there are only two times we've seen a dragon casting a ranged spell. One was draco-Mom's Finger of Death. That one, unsurprisingly, was emitted from her claw/finger. The other is in the bonus material in No Cure For the Paladin Blues, in which

Spoiler: NCFtPB

Show

the silver dragon cast Banishment, and the spell appeared to emanate from the dragon's hand/paw.

So not much precedent, but what there is, somewhat supports the eye-beams being atypical.