OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread

[H_H_F_F]

Also, Calder would have to cast Ocular Polar Ray twice in the previous 8 hours before releasing the spells on V. If Rich wanted to do a "Stasis stops feat timers" thing then Calder could've done it decades ago, but it's not something I'm ready to assume yet.

Ocular Spell has a lot of difficulties, but the description of Polar Ray actually says in the first sentence that it comes from your hand, so I'm not super happy to just give up and say it was art style. Maybe there's another excuse out there for shooting rays from your eyes. It's hard to search for.

I think timing isn't that big of a deal; he had a few good rounds to buff up. It took the Order a while to realize something was amiss. They messed around in the shallows, they found the secret door, they started walking, and then realized and rush back.

Calder knew there were enemy forces coming. It's not ludicrous to think he decided to utilize the time to improve his action economy.

[Tubercular Ox]

I think timing isn't that big of a deal; he had a few good rounds to buff up. It took the Order a while to realize something was amiss. They messed around in the shallows, they found the secret door, they started walking, and then realized and rush back.

Calder knew there were enemy forces coming. It's not ludicrous to think he decided to utilize the time to improve his action economy.

Using wonky speech bubbles as the indicator, Calder wasn't released until Serini was actually present.

Ocular Spell is a metamagic feat that lets you store a spell as a ray in your eye, so it can't be that because he just said "Polar Ray" - if he'd said nothing or said "Ocular Polar Ray" I'd believe it

I do care about this, but Calder could have cast the "Ocular Polar Ray" spells decades ago, gotten their timers frozen, then called his attacks unnecessarily, like that one fighter with Power Attack in the thieves' guild scene. So it's a choice between Rich drawing something cool that doesn't follow the description of the spell, or Rich adding something extra to a cool scene that follows the rules so that it's more understandable to the audience. Rich doing more than he normally does either way.

[Precure]

Caldet blames the whole group for his imprisonment. And explicitly says that the imprisonment is a consequence of surrendering.

Imprisonment and sealing are two different things.

Taking over his body when they explicitly said they would not do it. It isn't a loophole to the contract, but an entirely new clause that didn't exist when the contract was sealed. It lacks narrative elegance.

They weren't making a contract when they said that they're not put anything.

[H_H_F_F]

Using wonky speech bubbles as the indicator, Calder wasn't released until Serini was actually present.

Good point.

[TheNecrocomicon]

On that subject, does this new comic strip imply that Subdual was not how the Scribble took down Calder? Because they seemed pretty content to go for lethal damage until he surrendered-and I assume more people than Sereni were down to just kill him.

Though now that I think about it, I'm kinda curious how the party individually weighed in on the situation. I was gonna say Giriard is the sort of paranoid who'd kill the enemy just to be safe, but there's his draconic bloodline which could push his stance in either direction. Dorukan could be neutral or have an academic curiosity. Considering Lirian spared Xykon...well...

I think the subdual comes from one of the tie-in materials, a calendar or some such, that apparently showed the Scribblers subduing Calder back in the day.

From my estimation of the Scribblers, I'm sure they entertained the idea of killing Calder but probably keeping him alive and useful to them was better, from a utilitarian perspective, than just killing him and being done with it. Sounds like Serini was down for just killing him, but the rest all have very sound reasonings for letting him live in their service for however long that lasted. Lirian and Soon have druid and paladin principles to work with; Dorukan would go "hey, a dragon, we can use him"; Kraagor would just be happy he bested a dragon with even more of a self-imposed challenge; even Girard would understandably be averse to just killing a dragon, out of (1) kinship and (2) Ranger possibilities.

And considering the Scribblers' big life project was sealing the rifts and building the gates and the protective systems around them, no doubt they figured an extremely powerful dragon would be a useful resource in that regard. Or even just as their servant somehow.

Using wonky speech bubbles as the indicator, Calder wasn't released until Serini was actually present.

Considering that the panel where Calder's speech bubbles went to normal-shape was focused on Sunny, I'm pretty sure the release had to do with Sunny's anti-magic cone nullifying the arcane lines on the floor, rather than Serini's presence which just had coincidental timing.

[bunsen_h]

Would Protection From Evil free Sunny from Calder's control, at least temporarily? That would probably be of greater value than just getting Sunny to blink.

[jokem]

Didn't someone say the Cone of Cold should have done some damage?
Removing a vulnerability is not the same as immunity.

[jokem]

Would Protection From Evil free Sunny from Calder's control, at least temporarily? That would probably be of greater value than just getting Sunny to blink.

Or magic circle vs Evil. I am surprised Durkon has not prepared that spell.

[MeowMeow]

The action economy here doesn't make sense to me.

After the surprise round fire breath, we got:
Cleric girl, Durkon, Elan, V: Each cast one non-quickened spell, a standard action.
Roy: Throws sword twice. This is in two different panels, but seems to be a full attack, a full-round action.
Haley: Full attack with her bow (full-round action), provoking an AOO from the dragon.
Belkar: Throws one dagger, a standard action. It seems he used his move action to move away from the others.
Zombie halfling, mimic, beholder: No action or move action only.
Dragon: Casts two spells and breathes fire again. This is three standard actions, normally requiring three rounds. There was no indication that either spell was quickened.

So how does the dragon get three times as many actions as the other characters?

[Unoriginal]

The action economy here doesn't make sense to me.

After the surprise round fire breath, we got:
Cleric girl, Durkon, Elan, V: Each cast one non-quickened spell, a standard action.
Roy: Throws sword twice. This is in two different panels, but seems to be a full attack, a full-round action.
Haley: Full attack with her bow (full-round action), provoking an AOO from the dragon.
Belkar: Throws one dagger, a standard action. It seems he used his move action to move away from the others.
Zombie halfling, mimic, beholder: No action or move action only.
Dragon: Casts two spells and breathes fire again. This is three standard actions, normally requiring three rounds. There was no indication that either spell was quickened.

So how does the dragon get three times as many actions as the other characters?

To me, those are separate rounds.

Don't think Calder hitting Haley was an AOO either.



If this was based on 5e then I would say "Legendary Actions".

EDIT: Also, Zombie halfling?

There are no undead of any kind in this page.

[Shining Wrath]

Did Mimi just point to mimic Serini? But wouldn't a mimic be dead after taking that much damage?

Also, it doesn't look like Serini is fighting. She's just talking, although she seems to be drawing some of Calder's fire, in both senses of the word.

The Order's attacks (except V's spell) seem to be hitting. But that's one big pile of hit points to whittle away.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Draconomicon includes a feat Overcome Weakness, which removes Vulnerability to an energy.

Why would a dragon get another feat? It already has four feet.

Using wonky speech bubbles as the indicator, Calder wasn't released until Serini was actually present.

I got the idea that Sunny's eye took care of that.

So it's a choice between Rich drawing something cool that doesn't follow the description of the spell, or Rich adding something extra to a cool scene that follows the rules so that it's more understandable to the audience.

Cool ice rays out of the eyes, yes.

If this was based on 5e then I would say "Legendary Actions".

As would I.

[The MunchKING]

Did Mimi just point to mimic Serini? But wouldn't a mimic be dead after taking that much damage?

Didn't Serini say she had class levels? Or in some other way was the most powerful mimic on the force?



Hmmmm... Here she says Mimi is "Biggest", but not necessarily class levels or even high HP.

[Tubercular Ox]

Considering that the panel where Calder's speech bubbles went to normal-shape was focused on Sunny, I'm pretty sure the release had to do with Sunny's anti-magic cone nullifying the arcane lines on the floor, rather than Serini's presence which just had coincidental timing.

I got the idea that Sunny's eye took care of that.

Yes, that's right. The point was that Serini coincidentally showing up one panel before Sunny's eye provided the release makes it difficult to believe that Calder got any free rounds to buff himself off panel.

Roy: Throws sword twice. This is in two different panels, but seems to be a full attack, a full-round action.

A Returning weapon could only be thrown once, then the user would have to wait until next turn for it to return. This is a flawed explanation for Roy, because Greatswords can't be Returning weapons and Roy summons it instead of it returning, but I wonder if it follows similar timing.

Didn't Serini say she had class levels? Or in some other way was the most powerful mimic on the force?

Hmmmm... Here she says Mimi is "Biggest", but not necessarily class levels or even high HP.

She could have advanced HD. Rich already appears to be ignoring the rule that they can only mimic something approximately the same size, so she could be normally-Huge with 11-21 HD.

Edit: Mimi shut the door. Roy calls her, "The giant mimic."
How big do we think she is?

[Envyus]

On Calder. Pretty sure he’s just a Wyrm or Great Wyrm Red Dragon. Polar Ray coming from his eyes was just because it’s cool looking not because he has a fancy prestige class.

[The MunchKING]

On Calder. Pretty sure he’s just a Wyrm or Great Wyrm Red Dragon. Polar Ray coming from his eyes was just because it’s cool looking not because he has a fancy prestige class.

Feat, technically. The mind control is from the fancy prestige class.

[fuschiawarrior]

I really like the detail that the polar ray went through Vaarsuvius and hit the wall behind them.

[Mordar]

We know he has spellcaster levels don't we? From the mindbender prestige class.

I wasn't sure if it was certain/generally accepted that Serini's comment was accepted as level-based, and then I didn't know the specifics of that prestige class. But yes, I thought so.

That's another point in favor of it not being ocular spell, but I'm unsure it's conclusive. We've never seen a spell stylized like that before, and we've seen dragon-casting before. The spell looking precisely like what an ocular spell would do (including shooting two rays rather than one, with one action) is surprising.

I think there's a real case for both possibilities.

We have seen all other metamagic castings declared as such, though, right? I think straight Rule of Cool.

- M

[Tubercular Ox]

We have seen all other metamagic castings declared as such, though, right? I think straight Rule of Cool.

We have seen all other rays come from the finger.

[DavidSh]

We have seen all other rays come from the finger.

Was Sunny casting rays from their eyes? Any other non-humanoids casting rays?

[Tzardok]

Was Sunny casting rays from their eyes? Any other non-humanoids casting rays?

Sunny doesn't count. It is not a spellcaster, it has the racial ability of Eye Rays.

[Mordar]

We have seen all other rays come from the finger.

Yes (I assume). 100% of metamagic has been declared. We have never seen an eye spell or an Ocular spell at all. Isn't there a recommendation to look for the simplest plausible explanation?

After all, I guess we don't even know that it was a Polar Ray spell. It might have been an additional (Su) ability grafted on to Calder because Calder took the Chilly Cyclops_{Scott Summers} alternate feat available to Stickverse Red Dragons with one broken horn.

- M

[H_H_F_F]

Yes (I assume). 100% of metamagic has been declared. We have never seen an eye spell or an Ocular spell at all. Isn't there a recommendation to look for the simplest plausible explanation?

After all, I guess we don't even know that it was a Polar Ray spell. It might have been an additional (Su) ability grafted on to Calder because Calder took the Chilly Cyclops_{Scott Summers} alternate feat available to Stickverse Red Dragons with one broken horn.

- M

I think the argument is which explanation is the simplest and most plausible, right?

1. Without precedent, Rich decided to make a ray spell come from the eyes instead of the fingers, and be doubled/split, because it's cool.

2. Without precedent, Rich decided to not call out metamagic, because it's a unique type of metamagic where you cast the spell beforehand (which we haven't seen) and release it later. So the procedure would go {Ocular polar ray [cast to store], Ocular polar ray [cast to store], polar ray [cast to release]}


Explanation 2 suffers from a lot of stuff mentioned in this thread to make it less likely.

Explanation 1 suffers because it has to assume that coincidentally, the cool presentation that could've been anything (polar ray coming from the horn, the mouth, whatever) JUST HAPPENED to look exactly like a mechanical element of the sort that the comic is built on top of would be presented (coming from the eyes, two rays instead of one).


I don't think that explanation 1 is as obviously simpler or more plausible as you make it up to be.

[AvangionQ]

Was that a TWINNED Polar Ray?! We're talking about anywhere from 30D6 to 50D6 cold damage depending on the dragon's caster level. Wizards still using D4s for hit dice. V might be dead. 😨

[Theris]

Explanation 3 is that Calder was stuck in stasis for so long he forgot he had to use metamagic to cast Ocular polar ray and the one individual who could correct his mistake is the one targeted by the spell.

[H_H_F_F]

Was that a TWINNED Polar Ray?! We're talking about anywhere from 30D6 to 50D6 cold damage depending on the dragon's caster level. Wizards still using D4s for hit dice. V might be dead. 😨

The nature of the ray is in discussion - one side believing it to be a standard polar ray with a cool presentation, the other to be metamagic.

If you support the metamagic interpretation, ocular spell seems like the best candidate. Split ray would also make more sense than twin spell, from a cost-benefit analysis. Both split ray and ocular spell would be easier to explain than twin spell without significantly upping previous estimations of Calder's age / amount of class levels.

Either way, if indeed there were two rays, we're talking 32d6 at the very least (calder casts as a sorcerer, would only achieve 8th level spells at CL 16)

[danielxcutter]

Even if that was just a standard Polar Ray that is quite a bit of damage, tbh. As dragons are innate sorcerers, that damage starts at 16d6 which is an average of 56 points. That'd easily be a quarter or more health of someone like Roy or Durkon, let alone Vaarsuvius.

[Liquor Box]

Even if that was just a standard Polar Ray that is quite a bit of damage, tbh. As dragons are innate sorcerers, that damage starts at 16d6 which is an average of 56 points. That'd easily be a quarter or more health of someone like Roy or Durkon, let alone Vaarsuvius.

His breath weapon is 16d10 (assuming old Dragon, more if he's older), which is an average of 88 damage, and some of the party have been hit by it twice.

[danielxcutter]

I mean yeah, that's why they've put up Mass Resist Fire and gotten healing. That second one is going to be doing a lot less damage, due to Durkon having a high enough caster level for Mass Resist Fire to reduce fire damage by 30. Serini also probably has a pretty deep health pool due to sheer amount of levels even with age penalties to Constitution. In contrast, Polar Ray is doing cold damage, which V wouldn't have protected against, and also is a ray spell that doesn't allow a saving throw to reduce damage.

[Kardwill]

His breath weapon is 16d10 (assuming old Dragon, more if he's older), which is an average of 88 damage, and some of the party have been hit by it twice.

Unless I'm mistaken, no member of the party took 2 breath, apart from (maybe) mimi. Serini completely evaded the first blast, Belkar apparently evaded both unscathed, and no other party member were in both blast radiuses

But yeah, the first blast put some major outchage on Elan, Roy and the clerics. Fighting a red dragon is no fun.
(OK, it's actually pretty fun.
But, y'know, for the players.
NOT for the characters ^^)