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2024-02-07, 10:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
I do not disagree with this. I was disagreeing with the absolutism of
Lee is obligated to honor the letter of the contract. Cedrik could do whatever he wanted if
A: he thinks he can get away with it,
B: he thinks he will benefit from it,
C: he feels like it,
D: and/or uncounted other reasons which may or may not make sense to us.
I don't think it is probable, given what he has to lose, but that is seldom a major consideration from a Chaotic PoV.
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2024-02-07, 11:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2015
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2024-02-08, 02:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
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2024-02-08, 02:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Or Mimi's been making her saves and Serini has Improved Evasion or something.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2024-02-08, 03:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Off the top of my head, I can't think on how a dragon of advanced age would achieve this with only feats. Shedu crown bound to an opened crown chakra? That'd have a visual effect that we're not seeing. Same for soulspeaker circlet.
I empathize with assuming the simplest version - but the simplest version has to explain the evidence. "Roy's sword isn't magical" is a very simple explanation, until it isn't.Screaming defiance with the last breath
It would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.
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2024-02-08, 03:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
I know these are days old, but this was the way to introduce my thoughts on the IFCC/V discussion that's been taking place.
I believe Peelee is referring to the Giant's comment here:
And I tend to agree with him in his interpretation. Which is to say, it's certainly conceivable the IFCC would lie, but I more find myself thinking, how else would Rich let the readers know what exactly the terms of use on V's deal with the IFCC are if not through the IFCC?
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2024-02-08, 03:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Still, they somehow protected and moved V's body from underground to the surface. This involve some sort of control, even if they didn't personally put a soul in them
Last edited by Precure; 2024-02-08 at 03:54 AM.
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2024-02-08, 04:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
I think the explosion just yeeted their body there.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2024-02-08, 05:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
"If not through the IFCC" is the wrong question.
"If not through having a member of the IFCC make that claim to Vaarsuvius, the person they've previously lied to repeatedly, but this time the people treating that as 'Rich said it' are right, how?" is, and the answer is, "The same way he did with the lies 'You just happened to come along when we wanted a proof of concept,' and 'This elaborate scheme involving Aarindarius and suicide would save your family': interactions with Qarr. Or Sabine would work. Or anyone they don't have an incentive to lie to and haven't lied to repeatedly in the past."Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2024-02-08, 05:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
I don't exactly think that the moral of the story is going to be "V's very existence in the party after taking the deal was a net negative and it would have been better if they'd killed themselves immediately," for what it's worth.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2024-02-08, 06:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
I hope the route Rich takes to get there doesn't wind up being, "That 'If the elf dies here, this whole thing was a huge waste of time' line doesn't make any sense in retrospect as the fiends had no reason to want Vaarsuvius alive."
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2024-02-08, 06:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
I mean, if Vaarsuvius had to be alive until then so they could have one of their fiends possess them and take control over the Gate or whatever or otherwise do something so horrible that it decisively overshadows all the good they've ever done or will ever do, that would still be in line with that statement. I don't think that'll be what happens, though.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2024-02-08, 06:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Yes, exactly. That is one example of something that would be in line with that statement.
"Vaarsuvius just isn't there at the final battle, because the fiends yank them down to the Abyss" is something that would not be in line with that statement.
If Rich can come up with a way that being able to yank Vaarsuvius out actively helps the fiends, rather than being the same for them as if Vaarsuvius was permanently out because Xykon had crushed their windpipe, well and good. I'm just concerned about the story leaving it at: all they ever needed was Vaarsuvius' absence, and they should not have said that line because in end-of-comic retrospect it was the opposite of true.Last edited by Kish; 2024-02-08 at 06:22 AM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2024-02-08, 06:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Which is fair enough, and I also hope that the story doesn't go with "Vaarsuvius should have actually never done anything important again". I have faith in Rich not doing that, though.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2024-02-08, 06:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2021
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
They didn't, possession is involuntary more often then not. Well, [REDACTED] notwithstanding, of course.
I don't thing there is a twist, they'll probably just take Vaarsavius of the action when his action can affect the balance of the fight.
Then I think it's better that you avoid reading JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.
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2024-02-08, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
V being suddenly gone is a LOT harder for the Order to plan for than simply never having them present, to say nothing of the risk that, sans V, the Order could have made the effort and successfully found a caster not bound to the IFCC at all. There's likely to be a specific set of actions or knowledge that no other character would reasonably be able to do or have, and they need to make sure that the Order thinks that base is covered, until it isn't.
FWIW, I'm pretty sure the IFCC was hoping V wouldn't tell anyone about the deal, and I am making this statement with that assumption in mind.
I'm pretty sure the past tense is "yote".Last edited by Provengreil; 2024-02-08 at 08:01 AM.
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Roy will be Xykon's Final Boss
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2024-02-08, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Why not both?
The fiends cannot use the contract to possess V
AND they're making it absolutely clear so that V will stay with the order, allowing the fiends to mess with the order in the future
AND they twist the knife by insisting that they are only doing what he explicitely allowed them to do, because, although cruelty is its own reward, it is sooooo much sweeter when it's for an objectively useful purpose.
Shutting down V's train of thought also has the advantage that he does not think too long about what other loopholes might be hiding yet in the contract.Last edited by Kardwill; 2024-02-08 at 08:01 AM.
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2024-02-08, 08:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
They needed the Order to destroy the gate. The Order with V was far more likely to get to the gate, and the order without V was far more likely to destroy it because they couldn't hold it against Xykon/Nale/Tarquin. So they came up with a way to "curate" the order's efficiency (and knowledge) by removing their only Arcane specialist/flamethrower whenever they want.
If V died, then Xykon would probably have beaten the Order in the race for the fourth gate, and secured it against intrusion. That would go against the fiends manifest interest (lots of conflict around the gate, apparently)
What's their plan for the fifth Gate? I don't know. But I suspect they share Serini's earlier assessment that the Order fighting Xykon here endangers the last gate. So they allow them to have their wizard. For now.
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2024-02-08, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Yeah, I follow that, though in both of those last two cases the truth was revealed to us pretty quickly. I suppose there could be good dramatic reasons in this situation not to until/if it actually happens, but we're also lacking any other information on the subject (other than that nobody did, in fact, possess V's body during the first soul period).
Like I said, it's sure plausible that they would lie. But I also think this was how Rich wanted to communicate that information to us, so he wants us to think that's how the contract works, whether he later plans to confirm or subvert our expectations.
I think these are pretty good points too.Last edited by Ruck; 2024-02-08 at 08:39 AM.
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2024-02-08, 09:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
On the contrary, having both in the same story and/or setting is very frequent.
To name a few from the top of my head: Dungeons & Dragons, Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel, Charmed, both DC and Marvel, Futurama (if you count "digital ghost of a robot empowered by Robot Devil" as close enough to a demon), Helluva Boss, and The Witcher 3.Last edited by Unoriginal; 2024-02-08 at 09:30 AM.
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2024-02-08, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2023
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Look, I don't mind how this goes for the most part, but if Mimi doesn't come out of this intact I shall be quite put out.
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2024-02-08, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
You forgot the most important one: he can do whatever he wants if it isn't metaphysically impossible.
As I already stated a few pages back, if fiends can possess people without their consent, and the contract doesn't expressly forbid it (which, as somebody else pointed out, it doesn't, because it was a verbal contract and so there can't be any clauses we were unaware of), then possessing V's body wouldn't be a violation of their contract. If they can't possess people without their consent, then getting a third party is useless.
As I also stated a few pages back, while it's true that the author can reveal a clever hidden or twisted meaning behind what he's told us, an author who out-and-out lies to his reader will simply dilute their ability to understand the story. In order for "The fiends actually can posses V's body" to be an interesting twist we'd need to have the mechanics of the situation explained to us well enough that it doesn't just seem random.
I think that the "if V is a liability, why doesn't the order ditch them" versus "if V isn't a liability, why didn't the fiends let V die" conundrum does go away a bit if you consider that it's a balancing act between two parties to keep them in conflict, rather than an attempt to aid or impede one party specifically. It also helps if you don't assume that the fiends are all-knowing, and are having to hedge their bets as much as everyone else.
TE would obviously be better off if V was just dead and gone, but the fiends don't want TE getting a clean win. The Order don't want TE getting a clean win either, so they'll take even a compromised V at the risk of a messier outcome.Last edited by BloodSquirrel; 2024-02-08 at 09:41 AM.
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2024-02-08, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
That was not what i was referencing, i was just making that point entirely separately because i forgot he'd said that. But that works.
But another way to put my objection to Kish's insistence is that a lie is a primary (arguably the primary) defining facet of the deal with a devil trope, but they are subtly deceptive and they never directly lie about the specific terms. If Kish is correct, then why bother to believe any of it? Why believe they are restricted to getting V's soul for a certain amount of time only when it could be infinite uses for an infinite amount of time, because they just lied about it? Why believe anything at all about their restrictions?
There's a difference between trickery and just straight up declaring the opposite of what is actually the case. Faustian deals have trickery. They do not have the fiend saying "psych, the terms are actually the exact opposite of what i claimed".Last edited by Peelee; 2024-02-08 at 09:44 AM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2024-02-08, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Also a sudden twist has already been done, so I think doing that a second time would be a lot less impactful.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2024-02-08, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
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2024-02-08, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Vaarsivius may die, but I'm looking at the overall theme of the comic.
Overcome the prejudices and preconceptions that limit your potential.
V will have to realize and challenge his basic worldview. This process has already begun with the divorce and the humiliation at the hands of Xykon, but there is still a long way to go.
If the IFCC interferes with this process, V will be denied the opportunity to prove, (or fail to prove,) worthiness for redemption.
This is a part of every character's personal arc. Roy, Elan, and Haley proving themselves worthy regardless of family expectations, Redcloak trying to prove he was right all along, Xykon 'proving' that power matters most, V rejecting that premise.
Every character in the story has to grow beyond preconceived notions or die trying in order to 'win' their personal battle. I do not think that The Author will stop V by some trick by the IFCC.
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2024-02-08, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
It's also entirely possible for Varsuuvius to die and be brought back. Next morning, even.
Considering that Team Evil was estimated to take two days to clear the pre-Final Dungeon gauntlet with their current method, a several-hours-to-half-a-day skip wouldn't be outlandish.
And Varsuuvius seeing the kind of afterlife their actions so far have landed them in would contribute to their character arc.
Personal guess is that if they die during this battle (which I don't think is likely, but still possible), they would wake up in Hades.Last edited by Unoriginal; 2024-02-08 at 10:27 AM.
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2024-02-08, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
There was one outright lie: the claim that they chose V for the deal merely because it was the "next request to come down the line". But that wasn't one of the terms of the deal. It was also part of the deal that V would retain control of their actions. A couple of pages later, this was reiterated, though with a warning that there might be "some feedback. You know, alignment-wise." Later, it was stated that any implication that the spliced souls would affect V's thoughts or actions was untrue.
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2024-02-08, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
For the first part, yeah, i was specifically talking about the terms of the deal. For the second, same, but i also wouldn't have a problem considering the urgings of three Evil souls that are bound to mine to be referred to as "feedback". As they said, V's in control of their actions. Getting drunk with power to the point that they are willing to listen to said feedback is 100% on V.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2024-02-08, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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