Bard Sublime Chord but different

[Mordante]

For the last 2 or 3 years I have been a Bard. Last weekend I got to level 7. The build I was thinking about is Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 10. Pretty standard.

But since my Bard is flirting with Loviatar and my DM is willing to do some odd things. I had the idea of changing Sublime Chord so instead of Arcane spells it would add Divine spells/Cleric. Also since these skills are far out of my character I'd like to change two of the requirements.

Listen 13 ranks --> Knowledge Religion 13 ranks
Profession (astrologer) 6 ranks --> Knowledge planes 6 ranks

Would this work at all?

[YellowJohn]

That's an interesting question.

My main problem with this idea is that Loviatar doesn't seem to have much to do with being a bard; I'd be more comfortable with this sort of shenanigan on a worshiper of Milil or some other deity with a focus on music. Assuming your DM doesn't mind...

Sorcerer has a better list than Cleric, but I suspect there is more crossover with Bard so that's likely a wash.

Knowledge: The Planes is worth more than Knowledge: Astrologer; perhaps Profession: Torturer would be more fitting.
I'd also keep the ranks in Listen (or if I swapped them for anything it would be heal) and perhaps add one or both Knowledge skills as well.

[Mordante]

That's an interesting question.

My main problem with this idea is that Loviatar doesn't seem to have much to do with being a bard; I'd be more comfortable with this sort of shenanigan on a worshiper of Milil or some other deity with a focus on music. Assuming your DM doesn't mind...

Sorcerer has a better list than Cleric, but I suspect there is more crossover with Bard so that's likely a wash.

Knowledge: The Planes is worth more than Knowledge: Astrologer; perhaps Profession: Torturer would be more fitting.
I'd also keep the ranks in Listen (or if I swapped them for anything it would be heal) and perhaps add one or both Knowledge skills as well.

Thanks for the tips.

My main issue with listen is that I really don't like the skill. I am currently in three 3.5 parties. I think I have not spent a single point on listen or spot with any of my characters.

The Bard runs around with a whip dagger and is slightly sadistic.

[golem1972]

It would take a little retraining, but have you considered Bard Ur-Chord?
Savage Bard 6 / Up-priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Mystic Theurge 8. You would get spells as a Bard 8, Cleric 20, and Sorcerer 20 (with way fewer spells). You still wouldn’t get 9th level Cleric spells until level 17. If they are a stickler on the Mystic stacking, only take 8 levels and put something else (like mindbender) in instead of the first two Mystic levels.

[H_H_F_F]

It would take a little retraining, but have you considered Bard Ur-Chord?
Savage Bard 6 / Up-priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Mystic Theurge 8. You would get spells as a Bard 8, Cleric 20, and Sorcerer 20 (with way fewer spells). You still wouldn’t get 9th level Cleric spells until level 17. If they are a stickler on the Mystic stacking, only take 8 levels and put something else (like mindbender) in instead of the first two Mystic levels.

Given that the motivation for the divine version is the character's relationship with their god, Ur-Priest seems like the wrong way to go. If they were simply looking for mechanically introducing Divine Magic, then sure.

[Troacctid]

I am of the opinion that you can change any Profession requirement to any other Profession requirement without any meaningful effect on power level. However, changing the Profession requirement to a "real" skill like Knowledge (the planes) is effectively a buff to the prestige class, because it means you're getting more meaningful benefits out of what was previously a pure skill tax that wasn't providing anything for you beyond a ribbon ability. So, I wouldn't allow you to swap it for Knowledge (the planes), but I would be fine letting you use any other Profession of your choice.

The requirement of Listen is a bit different as it is a "real" skill, but the practical limitation it imposes is that it's a bard skill that is not also a sorcerer or wizard skill, so it softly encourages you to use a heavier bard entry rather than a Sorcerer 6/Bard 1 type of base. But I think it's fine to change it if you're changing the top-level concept of the class.

[Mordante]

Given that the motivation for the divine version is the character's relationship with their god, Ur-Priest seems like the wrong way to go. If they were simply looking for mechanically introducing Divine Magic, then sure.

Correct Ur-Pries and Savage Bard really don't fit my character. But I will have a look into that option. See if there is something in there to play with.

[Mordante]

I am of the opinion that you can change any Profession requirement to any other Profession requirement without any meaningful effect on power level. However, changing the Profession requirement to a "real" skill like Knowledge (the planes) is effectively a buff to the prestige class, because it means you're getting more meaningful benefits out of what was previously a pure skill tax that wasn't providing anything for you beyond a ribbon ability. So, I wouldn't allow you to swap it for Knowledge (the planes), but I would be fine letting you use any other Profession of your choice.

The requirement of Listen is a bit different as it is a "real" skill, but the practical limitation it imposes is that it's a bard skill that is not also a sorcerer or wizard skill, so it softly encourages you to use a heavier bard entry rather than a Sorcerer 6/Bard 1 type of base. But I think it's fine to change it if you're changing the top-level concept of the class.

But on the other hand the Cleric spell list is probably weaker compared to the wizard/sorc spell list. So that might balance things again.

Still it is still far away, leveling goes slow.

[Maat Mons]

Isn’t it kind of weird for a Bard to worship Loviatar? Bard is a Chaotic-leaning class, you cease to be able to progress in it further if you become Lawful. Loviatar is a Lawful deity, specifically Lawful Evil. Now, there’s nothing requiring you to have an alignment similar to that of your deity unless you’re a Cleric or something, but it still seems odd to me. I guess if you’re only just now finding yourself drawn to the Maiden of Pain you could gradually shift your alignment to be a closer match and it wouldn’t hurt your plans since you don’t plan to keep taking Bard levels. Out of curiosity, what is your current alignment?

I like to combine Sublime Chord with some flavor of Paladin, most typically Paladin of Freedom, but Paladin of Tyranny is more fitting for Loviatar. You could do Bard 7 / Paladin of Tyranny 3 / Sublime Chord 10, but you’d need to change alignment very suddenly. I also like to combine Sublime Chord with Virtuoso. It doesn’t help with the need for a rapid alignment change, but you could do Bard 6 / Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Virtuoso 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Virtuoso +8.

Since your DM is willing to do “weird things,” maybe you can get him to allow a variation of Divine Bard which doesn’t split the casting stat between Wisdom and Charisma, and keys the class’s alignment restrictions off your deity rather than being “any nonlawful.” If he’d let you switch to this alternate Bard at the moment you swear yourself to Loviatar, it would be very convenient. Also, being fully based on Divine spells would give you more freedom in armor choice.

[Mordante]

Isn’t it kind of weird for a Bard to worship Loviatar? Bard is a Chaotic-leaning class, you cease to be able to progress in it further if you become Lawful. Loviatar is a Lawful deity, specifically Lawful Evil. Now, there’s nothing requiring you to have an alignment similar to that of your deity unless you’re a Cleric or something, but it still seems odd to me. I guess if you’re only just now finding yourself drawn to the Maiden of Pain you could gradually shift your alignment to be a closer match and it wouldn’t hurt your plans since you don’t plan to keep taking Bard levels. Out of curiosity, what is your current alignment?

I like to combine Sublime Chord with some flavor of Paladin, most typically Paladin of Freedom, but Paladin of Tyranny is more fitting for Loviatar. You could do Bard 7 / Paladin of Tyranny 3 / Sublime Chord 10, but you’d need to change alignment very suddenly. I also like to combine Sublime Chord with Virtuoso. It doesn’t help with the need for a rapid alignment change, but you could do Bard 6 / Paladin of Tyranny 2 / Virtuoso 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Virtuoso +8.

Since your DM is willing to do “weird things,” maybe you can get him to allow a variation of Divine Bard which doesn’t split the casting stat between Wisdom and Charisma, and keys the class’s alignment restrictions off your deity rather than being “any nonlawful.” If he’d let you switch to this alternate Bard at the moment you swear yourself to Loviatar, it would be very convenient. Also, being fully based on Divine spells would give you more freedom in armor choice.

My Bard is Neutral Evil. The background of my catfolk lore song bard is that she grew in a tribe where most are trained as thieves/rogues etc but that seemed to much hard work. So she fled/left her tribe with a Bard Troupe. During her travels she learned learned how to dance and sing. Not because it is a great passion, but as way to get what she wants. However combat wasn't always avoidable but to make it more efficient and exploit weak points of people she studies them more (knowledge devotion). Now that she is gaining power (level 6 or 7) her goal is to slowly turn the local city into a den of pleasure and PAIN.