Frieren: Beyond Journey's End

[DeTess]

It's not just made up for the series. As I mentioned it is listed in my digital Japanese dictionary, but the definition is fairly vague. It's a word used to refer to magical beings or a specific kind of denon. But not in the meaning that it refers to a specific kind of demon like 'chain devil' would.

According to that dictionary it could mean 'class of demons', 'demonic race' or 'family of demons', so the term is at the same time specific and vague.

[Lemmy]

I do remember seeing "mazoku" used for particularly powerful demons pretty often... It's why I know the word.

Maybe it's not the literal meaning, but it's the most common use? If I just mention the word to a native Japanese, would they pictute a demon-like being or just a generic magical creature that may or may not be evil?

In any case, we know that "monsters" is the term for creatures made of magic (the ones that die and turn to mana dust)... Which might explain why demons "evolved" so quickly.

So far, every creature of this kind has been pretty hostile, although some of them seemed to be more like particularly vicious and dangerous beasts than malicious beings (although that doesn't make killing them any less necessary).

[ecarden]

I can only speak for the subtitles, which refer to Spiegel as a fiend and a monster, not a demon. Now, based on the classification given (demons are monsters which have the power of speech to fool nonmonsters) and we never see Spiegel or any of the duplicates speak, I think that is the correct categorization.

[pendell]

Here's an interesting writeup

Akuma = Devil, a personification of evil. I remember this from Street Fighter as , essentially , an evil version of Ryu, one of the two original protagonists.

Mazoku = "Magical family". Magical being, often evil. A bit less dark than an Akuma but still pretty nasty. It does indeed show up in Yu yu Hakusho , where they are villains.

Majin = "magical man" or "magical god". Similar to a Mazoku but more benevolent.

Yokai = nature spirit. These show up in Suzume and similar stories. These are the traditional Japanese creatures of fairy tales and aren't evil or good but alien. Like a natural force. Spirited Away's bathhouse was crawling with these.

It looks to me as if the top three are all "modern" fantasy the way, say, orcs didn't exist until Tolkien created them. Same with displacer beasts or rust monsters; they are fantasy but they are modern fantasy, with their roots in the 20th and 21st century, and bear the hallmarks of western influence. Contrast with Yokai , who are more traditional and a far, far older version of mythology.


...

Dangit, now I feel the urge to write a dissertation but I just don't have time.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[-D-]

I can only speak for the subtitles, which refer to Spiegel as a fiend and a monster, not a demon.

My subtitles used demon. And wiki says demon. Translation error?

[DaedalusMkV]

Okay -- so "mazoku" ( 魔族 ) = "magical family" or "magical beings" (= "creatures of mana", as proposed by -D-, which is why they disappear in sparkles?) I take it this is a made-up word for the series and not a traditional Japanese yokai? While the words themselves don't seem to have any indication of hostility, the fact that they all have horns implies the writer seems to be taking at least a bit of inspiration from western demons -- although the horns aren't strictly necessary.

Notably, horns have some important connotations in Japanese folklore as well. Horns on Japanese creatures are an indication of ties to anger, aggression and hostility, usually alongside a healthy helping of the supernatural. Anything with horns is, almost without exception, Bad News among Japanese creatures. Oni are the most prevalent and widespread, but there are others as well. And from what I've seen of the Demons in Frieren, they draw a lot of parallels with Oni, particularly the man-eating and the general unwillingness to cooperate with each other unless forced by a great power. Frieren's demons seem to be less 'angry ball of hatred and sadism' and more 'amoral asocial carnivore', though.

Here's an interesting writeup

Akuma = Devil, a personification of evil. I remember this from Street Fighter as , essentially , an evil version of Ryu, one of the two original protagonists.

Mazoku = "Magical family". Magical being, often evil. A bit less dark than an Akuma but still pretty nasty. It does indeed show up in Yu yu Hakusho , where they are villains.

Majin = "magical man" or "magical god". Similar to a Mazoku but more benevolent.

Yokai = nature spirit. These show up in Suzume and similar stories. These are the traditional Japanese creatures of fairy tales and aren't evil or good but alien. Like a natural force. Spirited Away's bathhouse was crawling with these.

It looks to me as if the top three are all "modern" fantasy the way, say, orcs didn't exist until Tolkien created them. Same with displacer beasts or rust monsters; they are fantasy but they are modern fantasy, with their roots in the 20th and 21st century, and bear the hallmarks of western influence. Contrast with Yokai , who are more traditional and a far, far older version of mythology.


...

Dangit, now I feel the urge to write a dissertation but I just don't have time.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

While I'm not an expert on Japanese folklore, I can maybe help a bit with this. The word Ma- root of Mazoku, Maou, Majin and what have you, came to Japan with Buddhism. Mara, the great demon of Buddhism who seeks to obstruct all humans from reaching Nirvana, was introduced to Japan with the Buddhist religion. It was something Japanese folklore didn't really have up until that point, a great inhuman supernatural evil which represented a more insidious threat than the rapacity of Oni. While Buddhist converts kept using the term Mara, the general population eventually wound up referring to the same concept as Maou (usually translated Demon King or Devil, but probably more accurately Archdemon), which is a bit more natural to pronounce for a Japanese speaker. Mazoku refer to all creatures connected to the Maou, usually lesser demons (and not always evil - as the servants of Mara are often converted by the Buddha in Buddhist tradition). It makes a lot of sense that Frieren uses these words, with a Demon King (Maou) and his subjects (Mazoku) fitting well with the origins of those terms.

Akuma is simply an alternative to Maou, literally translated as 'Evil demon'. It's another term that mutated from Buddhist teachings, and was probably a more official attempt by Buddhist monks to translate their teachings into Japanese. The use of Akuma to mean anything other than Mara (or the Devil in Christian tradition) seems to be a pretty modern thing, and I think was mostly the result of Japanese writers deciding it sounds cool, in much the same way D&D writers appropriated entities like Tiamat and Balor in name only.

Majin is a totally modern word. I'm reasonably certain it was coined by Toriyama, as a combination of 'Maou' and 'Jinn', IE 'Demon Genie'. Considering Buu's Djinn-like attributes and all. I'm fairly sure every other instance stems from this. I've certainly never heard of it being used prior to Dragon Ball, though I could be wrong.

Yokai are, indeed, nature spirits, and have a lot in common with Little Folk or Fae from European traditions. They long predate the introduction of Buddhism to Japan, being along with Kami the core of Shinto animism. Oni function as the 'demons' of Shinto, along with harmful or antagonistic Kami. Yokai can be benevolent or malevolent, but are usually portrayed as inhuman rather than evil.

One thing you might be mistaking in your investigations is that Ma (魔), is not 'Magic'. It's 'Demon', or maybe 'Demonic'. Mahou would be Magic. Which, yes, is totally based on the word for Demon, because that kind of magic was deeply associated with evil in Japanese tradition. In modern times, much as with the Western tradition, the inherently negative perception of Mahou has largely disappeared, but it very much meant something along the lines of 'Evil magic' in the past, in the same way a Christian might use 'Witchcraft'. 'Good magic' was pretty much synonymous with 'priest' for most of Japanese history, in one form or another (usually Onmyoji, but there are other traditions as well). Mazoku doesn't mean 'Magical family', it would be better understood as 'Demon kin'.

[pendell]

Notably, horns have some important connotations in Japanese folklore as well. Horns on Japanese creatures are an indication of ties to anger, aggression and hostility, usually alongside a healthy helping of the supernatural. Anything with horns is, almost without exception, Bad News among Japanese creatures. Oni are the most prevalent and widespread, but there are others as well. And from what I've seen of the Demons in Frieren, they draw a lot of parallels with Oni, particularly the man-eating and the general unwillingness to cooperate with each other unless forced by a great power. Frieren's demons seem to be less 'angry ball of hatred and sadism' and more 'amoral asocial carnivore', though.


While I'm not an expert on Japanese folklore, I can maybe help a bit with this. The word Ma- root of Mazoku, Maou, Majin and what have you, came to Japan ... Mara, the great demon of ... who seeks to obstruct all humans from reaching Nirvana, was introduced to Japan .... It was something Japanese folklore didn't really have up until that point, a great inhuman supernatural evil which represented a more insidious threat than the rapacity of Oni. While ... kept using the term Mara, the general population eventually wound up referring to the same concept as Maou (usually translated Demon King or Devil, but probably more accurately Archdemon), which is a bit more natural to pronounce for a Japanese speaker. Mazoku refer to all creatures connected to the Maou, usually lesser demons (and not always evil - as the servants of Mara are often converted ... in ... tradition). It makes a lot of sense that Frieren uses these words, with a Demon King (Maou) and his subjects (Mazoku) fitting well with the origins of those terms.

Akuma is simply an alternative to Maou, literally translated as 'Evil demon'. It's another term that mutated from Buddhist teachings, and was probably a more official attempt by Buddhist monks to translate their teachings into Japanese. The use of Akuma to mean anything other than Mara (or the Devil in [western] tradition) seems to be a pretty modern thing, and I think was mostly the result of Japanese writers deciding it sounds cool, in much the same way D&D writers appropriated entities like Tiamat and Balor in name only.

Majin is a totally modern word. I'm reasonably certain it was coined by Toriyama, as a combination of 'Maou' and 'Jinn', IE 'Demon Genie'. Considering Buu's Djinn-like attributes and all. I'm fairly sure every other instance stems from this. I've certainly never heard of it being used prior to Dragon Ball, though I could be wrong.

Yokai are, indeed, nature spirits, and have a lot in common with Little Folk or Fae from European traditions. They long predate the introduction of Buddhism to Japan, being along with Kami the core of Shinto animism. Oni function as the 'demons' of Shinto, along with harmful or antagonistic Kami. Yokai can be benevolent or malevolent, but are usually portrayed as inhuman rather than evil.

One thing you might be mistaking in your investigations is that Ma (魔), is not 'Magic'. It's 'Demon', or maybe 'Demonic'. Mahou would be Magic. Which, yes, is totally based on the word for Demon, because that kind of magic was deeply associated with evil in Japanese tradition. In modern times, much as with the Western tradition, the inherently negative perception of Mahou has largely disappeared, but it very much meant something along the lines of 'Evil magic' in the past, in the same way a Christian might use 'Witchcraft'. 'Good magic' was pretty much synonymous with 'priest' for most of Japanese history, in one form or another (usually Onmyoji, but there are other traditions as well). Mazoku doesn't mean 'Magical family', it would be better understood as 'Demon kin'.

Very cool! I will consider this.

ETA: The fact that "maou" has connotations of both demon and magic shows the inflluence in Frieren, where most magic is demonic in origin before being learned and repurposed by humans; most notably by the legendary mage Flamme, Frieren's teacher, who convinced the the human governments to allow the study and research of magic when it was previously outlawed as "demonic". Even in current-era, most human magic is demon magic that has been copied and repurposed; the flying spell Frieren and Fern use are originally demon magic, as is Fern's Zoltraak spell. It was originally designed by demons for killing humans, since repurposed and adapted for killing demons instead. It seems as if demons do most of the original research into magic in Frieren's world, often spending centuries in pursuit of perfecting one single spell, and humans copy/adapt them.

And of course the Demon King is absolutely a thing that exists in this world, before Team Hero killed it. Is this equal to the Mara or Maou?

This relationship between the majou and magic flows directly from this view that you mention. So that's one layer of deeper understanding of the show.

E Again to add: What a wonderful thing is the modern world where we have so many different influences in our entertainment product. Where else would we have a Galadriel-expy (with heavy, heavy roots in western thoughts) take on the Demon King (the Source Of All Evil in Indian/Japanese traditional views)?

You'll notice, by the way, I'm trying to move away from specific real-world religions in order to prevent the wrath of mod. A pity ,really, since this is a discussion of mythology, but the rules are what they are for a reason.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[-D-]

ETA: The fact that "maou" has connotations of both demon and magic shows the inflluence in Frieren, where most magic is demonic in origin before being learned and repurposed by humans;

Not really. The demon magic isn't THE only magic source. There are several types. Broadly, there are officially recognized as:

• Spellcaster magic - what most spellcasters use.
• Goddess's magic - what priests use. Holy scriptures contain Goddess of creation magic, but are heavily ciphered. Priests spent lifetimes deciphering them, once deciphered they can be used by any priest (or mage with Goddess's affinity like Methode) with scripture and magic tools (magic channelling wand/staff).
• Curses - Magic used by demons. They can be dispelled via Goddess's magic or when deconstructed, they can be countered. One way to recognize a curse is that Defence magic can't stop it.

Some demon magic is analysed and becomes regular human magic - see Zoltraak

Spoiler

Show

, see flying magic

.

E Again to add: What a wonderful thing is the modern world where we have so many different influences in our entertainment product. Where else would we have a Galadriel-expy (with heavy, heavy roots in western thoughts) take on the Demon King (the Source Of All Evil in Indian/Japanese traditional views)?

It's not just a Galadriel Expy, it's about learning to live in a world where you are affixed, while it keeps changing. In Frieren's world evolution is a fact of life.

[Lemmy]

It's ironic that Frieren made "Galadriel" waaaaaay better than the actual series about Galadriel could ever even dream of... And it didn't even need a billion dollars to do it!

Good gods! RoP is awful...

[-D-]

It's ironic that Frieren made "Galadriel" waaaaaay better than the actual series about Galadriel could ever even dream of... And it didn't even need a billion dollars to do it!

You say like it's a hard thing. Peter Jackson's LotR did Galadriel better for only ~90 million.

[Lemmy]

You say like it's a hard thing. Peter Jackson's LotR did Galadriel better for only ~90 million.

Hard?! Far from it.

I'm convinced any half-decent amateur writer with a modicum of respect for the source material and Tolkien himself could have done a much better job than the garbage Amazon created.

[pendell]

Not really. The demon magic isn't THE only magic source. There are several types. Broadly, there are officially recognized as:

• Spellcaster magic - what most spellcasters use.
• Goddess's magic - what priests use. Holy scriptures contain Goddess of creation magic, but are heavily ciphered. Priests spent lifetimes deciphering them, once deciphered they can be used by any priest (or mage with Goddess's affinity like Methode) with scripture and magic tools (magic channelling wand/staff).
• Curses - Magic used by demons. They can be dispelled via Goddess's magic or when deconstructed, they can be countered. One way to recognize a curse is that Defence magic can't stop it.

Some demon magic is analysed and becomes regular human magic - see Zoltraak

Spoiler

Show

, see flying magic

.


It's not just a Galadriel Expy, it's about learning to live in a world where you are affixed, while it keeps changing. In Frieren's world evolution is a fact of life.

Well, there's at least one more kind -- "Folk magic". Little spells to make ordinary life easier. A spell to create a flower bed. Or clean a statue. This was the special interest of Flamme and, now, of Frieren. It's a source of contention with Sere, Flamme's teacher, or so I understand. Sere sees magic as the province of the chosen few and a tool for killing monsters, nothing more, nothing less. She doesn't want magic to be used by the masses and she doesn't want it diverted to recreational , frivolous pursuits. In her eyes this distracts from a mage's main job, which is either training themselves to maximum power or killing monsters.

Apart from Goddess magic, I don't think there's such a thing as a "source". Magic is mana. Every living creature can gather it and make use of it. Demons, being made of mana, were the first to use it and construct spells. Because of these roots, humans considered ALL magic save that from scripture (I assume) to be demonic in nature and forbade it's research. Flamme in their world is to Hippocrates is in ours, taking a discipline (magic in Frieren, medicine in ours) out of the realms of spiritual understanding and treating it as a natural discipline with natural causes and natural solutions. Flamme did this precisely because she wanted more "folk magic", more magic for ordinary people to use. Flamme legalized magic, made it a respectable study and that is to their world what the industrial revolution is to ours.

The parallel to medicine is apt; in the real world, early modern medicine involved digging up dead bodies to learn anatomy, or injecting people with animal blood to give them cowpox and thereby gain immunity to smallpox. All of this was frankly weird and it weirded out not just religious authorities, but ordinary people as well. Yet today its accepted and dissecting frogs is an exercise for secondary school students. Which no one likes but , considering all the other stuff one has to do in medicine, it's probably a good entry gate test to see if it's a career you want to pursue.

It's not just a Galadriel Expy, it's about learning to live in a world where you are affixed, while it keeps changing. In Frieren's world evolution is a fact of life.

Oh, not just a Galadriel expy, no, Frieren is her own character and her own story. Still, there's enough similarity with Tolkien's world that if Frieren stepped into middle earth I don't think Elrond or Gil-galad or Feanor would bat an eye. Given she probably doesn't speak either High-elven or Sindarin, they'd probably consider her Moriquendi (Dark Elf) but would accept her as such.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah absolutely not Galadriel expy.
Just for a start. Frieren isnt a ruler. Or someone with motivation or drive at all.
At the same time. Yeah i see the argument for Frieren being what the recent Galadrial movie wished she had been.

There is i think a very fitting touch of detachment. And whimsy.

[Lemmy]

Yeah absolutely not Galadriel expy.
Just for a start. Frieren isnt a ruler. Or someone with motivation or drive at all.
At the same time. Yeah i see the argument for Frieren being what the recent Galadrial movie wished she had been.

There is i think a very fitting touch of detachment. And whimsy.

I think that's what make it even more ironic (and embarrassing for RoP).

Frieren isn't Galadriel. She isn't supposed to be or represent Galadriel...

But she's much closer to LotR Galadriel simply by virtue of being a well written character in a well written story.

Meanwhile... In RoP, Galadriel's characterization pretty much starts and ends at "she's a girlboss"... And the rest of story isn't much more developed either.

[-D-]

Well, there's at least one more kind -- "Folk magic". Little spells to make ordinary life easier. A spell to create a flower bed.

This is just spellcaster magic. I'm saying magic without Demons exists. Elves and humans can invent magic without Demons.

ETA: The fact that "maou" has connotations of both demon and magic shows the inflluence in Frieren, where most magic is demonic in origin before being learned and repurposed by humans

My problem is with this: Only true, if you forget that elves practised magic before for thousands of years. And demons using magic, made magic as a whole taboo.

Oh, not just a Galadriel expy, no, Frieren is her own character and her own story. Still, there's enough similarity with Tolkien's world that if Frieren stepped into middle earth I don't think Elrond or Gil-galad or Feanor would bat an eye.

Eh, most non-evil Elf from most fantasy novels would fit pretty snuggly into Gil-galad.

There is very little of Galadriel in Frieren. I guess the biggest things are:

• Powerful heroes in their own right
• Retired (mostly)
• Elves (and everything that comes with this trope - magical affinity, long lives)

This isn't like obvious parallels e.g. Superman (DC Comic) vs Apollo (Authority), where the list of differences is much smaller.

[pendell]

So Episode 27 airs tomorrow. Three's 28 episodes in the season, so there's only one more after it. I'm curious how they're going to wrap it up, because it feels like we're in the middle of an arc.

I hope there's a second season ... but I'll contain my disappointment if there isn't. I mentioned the Promised Neverland ... Season 1 was great. Season 2 was ... ugh. It would have been better with just one season. A good show should leave you wanting more, not sick to death and burned out on the concept.

Still, it's kind of hard to imagine they won't try to make a second season, given it's reception.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[DaedalusMkV]

ETA: The fact that "maou" has connotations of both demon and magic shows the inflluence in Frieren, where most magic is demonic in origin before being learned and repurposed by humans; most notably by the legendary mage Flamme, Frieren's teacher, who convinced the the human governments to allow the study and research of magic when it was previously outlawed as "demonic". Even in current-era, most human magic is demon magic that has been copied and repurposed; the flying spell Frieren and Fern use are originally demon magic, as is Fern's Zoltraak spell. It was originally designed by demons for killing humans, since repurposed and adapted for killing demons instead. It seems as if demons do most of the original research into magic in Frieren's world, often spending centuries in pursuit of perfecting one single spell, and humans copy/adapt them.

While I'm not quite caught up to the current episodes (I generally don't start watching a series until it has at least 20 episodes, or a complete season), given some of the tropes that seem to be at play and what I know of the folklore that inspired them, humans probably initially started with only 'divine' magic (currently incarnated in the series with Goddess magic, but there's no reason to assume there wouldn't have been other traditions), using spells either formulated as prayers or assumed to be passed down as gifts from the gods/spirits. While the show certainly hasn't come down hard on the side of the Goddess existing, it has apparently come down on 'the afterlife exists, people have immortal souls and it is possible if very difficult for the living to speak with the dead', so I consider it pretty darn likely there are some divinities out there somewhere that might have given their favorite mortals a leg up on spellcasting. But this magic still explicitly uses Mana, Heiter is called out as special not just because he can cast blessings that most clerics cannot, but because he has a massive natural mana supply, so it probably uses the same mechanisms as other magic.

We know that monsters in Frieren often have powerful, innate supernatural abilities and seem to be literally made of mana. Demons are monsters which evolved to be more human-like as a way to better prey on humans, and eventually developed true intelligence and individuality as part of that, and thus started training and developing their inborn magical powers, creating something more recognizable as spells. I'd suspect that 'spellcaster' magic developed in response to that, probably initially by copying and adapting demon spells. We know that not all spells in Frieren are stolen from demons, but considering the taboo against this kind of magic prior to Frieren's mentor it makes sense that the initial practice, and a lot of the best spells (see Zoltraak) are demonic in origin (I'd cite the Japanese root of Mahou being 'demon', except that modern use of that word covers basically all magic depicted in fiction). We know that demons aren't the only source of spells in the show - flower growing and seeing through clothes, or the rumored 'age resistance' spells, are things that demons would have no use for at all, so must have been developed by others. But given the case of Zoltraak, it seems like the best and most powerful spells are copied from demons, then adapted and improved for mortal use.

And of course the Demon King is absolutely a thing that exists in this world, before Team Hero killed it. Is this equal to the Mara or Maou?

This relationship between the majou and magic flows directly from this view that you mention. So that's one layer of deeper understanding of the show.

E Again to add: What a wonderful thing is the modern world where we have so many different influences in our entertainment product. Where else would we have a Galadriel-expy (with heavy, heavy roots in western thoughts) take on the Demon King (the Source Of All Evil in Indian/Japanese traditional views)?


Respectfully,

Brian P.

I haven't seen a lot about the specifics of the Demon King in Frieren, but I know for sure the Japanese word they use to refer to him is 'Maou', just like a lot of other recent Japanese fiction (the Maou and Hero chosen by fate to defeat him are extremely popular in current light novel writing, and even as a non-Anime-fanatic I can name like 12 recent shows that feature it). The idea that the Maou has already been defeated is actually not uncommon in Japanese folklore - adaptations of the concept to fit with existing traditions in the Japanese concept led to a sort of cycle of Archdemons - as each Maou reaches the peak of its power and human suffering rises, a hero empowered by fate comes to strike the demon down and bring about an era of peace... Until the decadence of those who live in the golden era allow the rise of a new Maou (or the old one returns), who continues the cycle. We know this played out in Frieren with Himmel and his friends, and we know at least some of the demons are trying to either resurrect the old Demon King or create a new one.

As for Frieren, I'll agree with others. She's too childish and whimsical to really be Galadriel. Though she certainly would fit in just fine with Middle-Earth's Elves. As you'd expect, with her being clearly inspired by D&D Elves.

If you start looking at it Frieren actually blends a lot of tropes from different traditions, as befits a story inspired by D&D. The afterlife is clearly inspired by Greek myth, the Goddess church has... Obvious inspirations, the demons are strongly tied to Indian myth (which is a currently practiced religion, so I'm not going to go into any detail on that front), the structure of the geography is inspired by Arthurian fiction and Roman Britain, humans being able to achieve superhuman strength and durability with the right training regimes is straight out of China (though it's been in Japan so long it can be hard to remember it's not an originally Japanese concept, and in this case is clearly D&D-based regardless). We really do benefit a lot from being able to mix concepts from different cultures in our fiction.

[pendell]

We really do benefit a lot from being able to mix concepts from different cultures in our fiction.

Indeed. Those who use the words "cultural appropriation" have a point, in that we shouldn't mock or insult other cultures. But there's a big difference between mocking other cultures and learning from them. Without a certain degree of cultural interchange, Frieren, the show, would not exist.

So today was Episode 27 : "The Era of Humans"

A lot, and I mean , a lot, happens in this episode. It's not action-oriented at all , but there is so much to unpack.

Serious job interview vibes; I was recently laid off and recently re-hired, so it hits me right in a sensitive spot.

Spoiler

Show

-- Frieren and emotions -- she doesn't, at first, understand why Fern is insistent on repairing her staff rather than simply buying a new one, but we learn this is the staff Hinter gave her. Frieren is very quiet, but she picks up the staff and has it repaired. She does have a heart, even if she doesn't express it in the way humans do.

-- the complaint of every teenage girl ever: "She doesn't understand me!" Well, yes, but she tries. And she loves. For some value of "love", anyway.

The final test is an interview with Serie, the Great Mage of the Continental Magic Association. She is unhappy with the outcome of the second test because, as far as she's concerned, far too many of them have passed who by rights should not have, and it's because Frieren carried them. She's simply overwhelmingly powerful compared to the other test takers. No one wants to see bloodshed, so Serie decides to resolve it all with a set of interviews. There is a quick vignette where Serie chides herself for taking human students. They don't last very long.

Almost everyone gets failed as soon as she steps in. Most, for the same reason, they can detect Serie's mana, which is off the charts, and they are petrified of her. None of them can imagine themselves as first-class mages, so none of the preliminary candidates pass.

Frieren is next. They discuss. Frieren and Serie discuss. They are very, very different people. Serie doesn't value the kind of magic that Frieren pursues, or the talents she builds, at all. From her perspective, despite her power Frieren is very unskilled for a mage of her age. She nonetheless gives Frieren one chance: "Tell me your favorite spell".

Frieren responds: The spell for flowers, which Flamme taught her. Ironically, the spell which created the garden the interview is conducted in.

Serie fails her and Frieren walks out.

Serie doesn't understand how Frieren could have defeated the demon king. Frieren explains it was not her alone, but her friends and her together who conquered the demon king, and all four of them were needed. Not one could be absent.

And that spell of the field of flowers is what brought them together.

FLASHBACK.
Frieren remembers Himmel telling her why he had recruited her, out of many, many powerful mages. Because Himmel remembered her from a meeting as a child. He was lost in the woods, and Frieren guided him out. He was afraid of her, but she eased his fears with the flower creation spell. He saw magic as beautiful, her as beautiful, and from that moment forward he would always regard magic as something wondrous.

So he came for her.

And they formed a party.

And they saved the world.

That spell, the spell Serie has such contempt for, is the one spell that saved the world when Serie, with all her power did not. It's only briefly alluded to, but I get the impression that Serie herself had confronted the demon king, and failed. But where Serie had failed Frieren had succeeded. Not by might, and not by power, but by the cooperation of friends doing something no single mage could do alone.

The small thing, the thing rejected by those who value power, becomes the foundation of their new world.

There's a lot of mythic echoes in that I can't explore further here, but I think Tolkien, with his four hobbits who shook the foundations of the Black Tower built on power, would approve.

Now it is Fern's turn.

Serie is prepared to fail her , but then she looks at her eyes... what does she see?

Fern sees that Serie's mana has the telltale fluctuations of mana-concealment.

Serie is astonished, though she is good at hiding it. Serie and Frieren have this in common -- they both suppress their mana. Yet Fern is the first person to recognize this EVER. The best human mage, the current leader of the first class mages, was sharp enough to recognize that Frieren is suppressing her mana, something no one else even thought of. Only the Demon King was able to see through Frieren's disguise at first glance. And NO ONE has ever realized that Serie is also suppressing her power. Her mana, which is overwhelming even when suppressed, is still only a fraction of what she is truly capable of.

Fern has more talent and potential even than the best of current first class mages. Serie at once invites her to be her student. Serie, who just a few minutes ago had determined never to take another human student, has found a student worth teaching.

Fern refuses. She is Frieren's student, even if it means failure.

But Serie's intuition tells her Fern is a first-class mage, and Serie's intuition is never wrong.

Fern passes.

And I guess that's a thing about job interviews; you can be highly capable, highly skilled, and still not pass because you don't get on with your interviewer. That's what happened with Frieren. I don't think she should take it wrongly that Serie doesn't view her as a proper mage; Frieren, after all, saved the world and Serie didn't.

If I were Frieren, the thing to do would be to start my own competing magic school with my own rankings, and train students in my own image rather than Sere's. Except of course Frieren doesn't value such things. She only wants the certification so she can journey to the land where she can see Himmel, and her apprentice now has that cert. She has what she needs.

And if the apprentice is a first class mage -- what does that say of the teacher?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

We really do benefit a lot from being able to mix concepts from different cultures in our fiction.

Indeed. Those who use the words "cultural appropriation" have a point, in that we shouldn't mock or insult other cultures. But there's a big difference between mocking other cultures and learning from them. Without a certain degree of cultural interchange, Frieren, the show, would not exist.

So today was Episode 27 : "The Era of Humans"

A lot, and I mean , a lot, happens in this episode. It's not action-oriented at all , but there is so much to unpack.

Serious job interview vibes; I was recently laid off and recently re-hired, so it hits me right in a sensitive spot.

Spoiler

Show

-- Frieren and emotions -- she doesn't, at first, understand why Fern is insistent on repairing her staff rather than simply buying a new one, but we learn this is the staff Hinter gave her. Frieren is very quiet, but she picks up the staff and has it repaired. She does have a heart, even if she doesn't express it in the way humans do.

-- the complaint of every teenage girl ever: "She doesn't understand me!" Well, yes, but she tries. And she loves. For some value of "love", anyway.

The final test is an interview with Serie, the Great Mage of the Continental Magic Association. She is unhappy with the outcome of the second test because, as far as she's concerned, far too many of them have passed who by rights should not have, and it's because Frieren carried them. She's simply overwhelmingly powerful compared to the other test takers. No one wants to see bloodshed, so Serie decides to resolve it all with a set of interviews. There is a quick vignette where Serie chides herself for taking human students. They don't last very long.

Almost everyone gets failed as soon as she steps in. Most, for the same reason, they can detect Serie's mana, which is off the charts, and they are petrified of her. None of them can imagine themselves as first-class mages, so none of the preliminary candidates pass.

Frieren is next. They discuss. Frieren and Serie discuss. They are very, very different people. Serie doesn't value the kind of magic that Frieren pursues, or the talents she builds, at all. From her perspective, despite her power Frieren is very unskilled for a mage of her age. She nonetheless gives Frieren one chance: "Tell me your favorite spell".

Frieren responds: The spell for flowers, which Flamme taught her. Ironically, the spell which created the garden the interview is conducted in.

Serie fails her and Frieren walks out.

Serie doesn't understand how Frieren could have defeated the demon king. Frieren explains it was not her alone, but her friends and her together who conquered the demon king, and all four of them were needed. Not one could be absent.

And that spell of the field of flowers is what brought them together.

FLASHBACK.
Frieren remembers Himmel telling her why he had recruited her, out of many, many powerful mages. Because Himmel remembered her from a meeting as a child. He was lost in the woods, and Frieren guided him out. He was afraid of her, but she eased his fears with the flower creation spell. He saw magic as beautiful, her as beautiful, and from that moment forward he would always regard magic as something wondrous.

So he came for her.

And they formed a party.

And they saved the world.

That spell, the spell Serie has such contempt for, is the one spell that saved the world when Serie, with all her power did not. It's only briefly alluded to, but I get the impression that Serie herself had confronted the demon king, and failed. But where Serie had failed Frieren had succeeded. Not by might, and not by power, but by the cooperation of friends doing something no single mage could do alone.

The small thing, the thing rejected by those who value power, becomes the foundation of their new world.

There's a lot of mythic echoes in that I can't explore further here, but I think Tolkien, with his four hobbits who shook the foundations of the Black Tower built on power, would approve.

Now it is Fern's turn.

Serie is prepared to fail her , but then she looks at her eyes... what does she see?

Fern sees that Serie's mana has the telltale fluctuations of mana-concealment.

Serie is astonished, though she is good at hiding it. Serie and Frieren have this in common -- they both suppress their mana. Yet Fern is the first person to recognize this EVER. The best human mage, the current leader of the first class mages, was sharp enough to recognize that Frieren is suppressing her mana, something no one else even thought of. Only the Demon King was able to see through Frieren's disguise at first glance. And NO ONE has ever realized that Serie is also suppressing her power. Her mana, which is overwhelming even when suppressed, is still only a fraction of what she is truly capable of.

Fern has more talent and potential even than the best of current first class mages. Serie at once invites her to be her student. Serie, who just a few minutes ago had determined never to take another human student, has found a student worth teaching.

Fern refuses. She is Frieren's student, even if it means failure.

But Serie's intuition tells her Fern is a first-class mage, and Serie's intuition is never wrong.

Fern passes.

And I guess that's a thing about job interviews; you can be highly capable, highly skilled, and still not pass because you don't get on with your interviewer. That's what happened with Frieren. I don't think she should take it wrongly that Serie doesn't view her as a proper mage; Frieren, after all, saved the world and Serie didn't.

If I were Frieren, the thing to do would be to start my own competing magic school with my own rankings, and train students in my own image rather than Sere's. Except of course Frieren doesn't value such things. She only wants the certification so she can journey to the land where she can see Himmel, and her apprentice now has that cert. She has what she needs.

And if the apprentice is a first class mage -- what does that say of the teacher?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[lord_khaine]

Indeed. Those who use the words "cultural appropriation" have a point

I could not disagree more strongly. Cant recall a single previous occasion of someone using that word in a serious manner,
where they had any point besides that their keyboard should have been taken away.

Culture mix, match and evolve. Thats a natural thing thats taken place since there were culture.

[pendell]

Watching the interchange between Serie and Frieren, I am reminded of what is maybe the best line from the hobbit movies ...

“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. It is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."

I think Frieren and Gandalf would get along well.

ETA: Come to think of it, Serie would probably despise Gandalf but would get on very well with Saruman. The interplay between Serie and Frieren reminds me much of the relationship between Saruman and Gandalf -- the one seeking power above all things and at all cost, regardless of the morality, versus the one who depends on small things and on friendship rather than on might. The wizard who would choose Merry and Pippin as companions for Frodo as opposed to the great Elf-lords such as Glorfindel who were at that moment in Rivendell and available.

Gandalf said : " " I think, Elrond, that in this matter it would be well to trust rather to their friendship than to great wisdom. Even if you choose for us an elf lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him".

That is a choice Serie would find inconceivable that way. Written that way, I can only be surprised she hasn't gone evil herself. Certainly she would not withstand the temptation of the Ring for just an instant.

... Actually, Middle-Earth is also an argument for Frieren's and Gandalf's approach versus Series. The reason the wizards of middle-earth hold their power in check is because when magical clashes HAVE gone all out it has leveled mountain ranges and let in seas on habitable land, destroying old Beleriand altogether. But then, I suppose this is exactly why Serie wants mages to be few and far between.



Respectfully,

Brian P.

[lord_khaine]

Well except thats wrong. Serie is NOT seeking power above all else.
In fact we have not seen her do any power seeking at all.

What we have seen her do is judging mages to avoid them dying in a test they were not ready for.
And gardening. What we have heard of her doing is power sharing. Close to the opposite of power seeking.

Its easy enough to dislike Serie. She is arrogant.
And bordering on being an antagonist. Or at least an obstacle.
But when examining the facts. They just dont line quite up i think.

[pendell]

Well except thats wrong. Serie is NOT seeking power above all else.
In fact we have not seen her do any power seeking at all.

What we have seen her do is judging mages to avoid them dying in a test they were not ready for.
And gardening. What we have heard of her doing is power sharing. Close to the opposite of power seeking.

Its easy enough to dislike Serie. She is arrogant.
And bordering on being an antagonist. Or at least an obstacle.
But when examining the facts. They just dont line quite up i think.

She told Frieren not to neglect her training and marked her down in her test because, while Frieren is overwhelmingly powerful compared to the other candidates, she still isn't anywhere near as powerful as she could be if she'd devoted all her time and energy to becoming the most powerful battlemage she could.

I assume, as a corollary, that because Serie seeks out mages with burning ambition and drive, that she wants mages who will improve their battle magic and power to the exclusion of anything else. I further deduce that, if this is what she values in others, it is because it is what she does herself.

Some supporting evidence is that

Spoiler

Show

In the show, Fern alone detects the almost imperceptible fluctuations which indicate Serie is suppressing her mana. Earlier in the show, the current first of the first-class mages had correctly noted Frieren's true power level which he said was "equal to Serie's".

No, it isn't. Frieren's power level when she is fully revealed is equal to Serie's when Serie is suppressing. Serie's ACTUAL full power level could be described as "as close to godlike as it is possible for a corporeal being to attain". In the standard ranking system of E-A, Serie would rank SS.

Yet, for all her power, I suspect the Demon King was even stronger. If this were not so, why didn't Serie blow him away a lot earlier and save the world a great deal of trouble?

Yes, we don't see her do much of anything but, based on the clues given, both in what she says she values and the apparent results of that in her own case, that she is not a hypocrite; that she seeks out mages who crave power and have burning ambition becuase that is what she, herself, does.

She seeks powerful mages to overcome enemies through exercise raw power.

Frieren seeks little magic to make human lives better.

If Gandalf showed Frieren his fireworks spell that he used in the Shire to amuse the hobbits, Frieren would laugh with delight and immediately ask to learn it. Serie would dismiss it as frivolous.

Saruman, by contrast, had an absolute determination to acquire power to defeat the Dark Lord, and this meant imitating the Dark Lord's methods and taking the Dark Lord's tools.

In fairness, in Frieren's world all three of the Great Mages -- Serie, Flamme, and Frieren -- use and re-purpose demon magic. But I think of the three it's only Serie who is interested purely in magical power as a tool for war, overcoming power with power.

So I think she would get on with Saruman while Frieren would get on well with Gandalf. So I see the two as quite comparable.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Devlerbat]

Was Fern the only one to pass? Maybe I need to rewatch it, but I feel like there were some notable mages that they didn't show that I feel could have passed. Mostly the cutting girl (whose name I forget). I can't imagine her not being able to imagine herself becoming a first class. Mostly because she has that schtick about being able to imagine things that should be absurd to imagine. I can't see her being intimidated by Serie's magic aura for basically the same reason.

[pendell]

Was Fern the only one to pass? Maybe I need to rewatch it, but I feel like there were some notable mages that they didn't show that I feel could have passed. Mostly the cutting girl (whose name I forget). I can't imagine her not being able to imagine herself becoming a first class. Mostly because she has that schtick about being able to imagine things that should be absurd to imagine. I can't see her being intimidated by Serie's magic aura for basically the same reason.

I don't think they finished interviewing them all; I know I didn't see Danton, for one, in that list of mages who were rapidly interviewed and failed. I would expect him to get at least a minute in air time for his interview, because he's an intriguing character. He seems to be a sort of foil to Frieren.

I hope we'll see what other mages, if any, were selected in today's episode the last of the season. I assume it will end with Frieren, Fern, and Kurt Stark (the young warrior accompanying them) setting off on their journey. Not the best possible ending , but this is originally a much longer manga of which the anime is only covering a small part.

I hope there is a season 2, but I'd rather they didn't make one rather than screw it up the way Promised Neverland was messed up -- the season 1 was great. The season 2 was a heavily rushed disaster which skimmed over the most interesting plot points of the anime and concluded with a set of still slides like a powerpoint presentation.

If there's one thing the Star Wars and MCU have taught me, it is that there can be too much of a good thing. Tolkien was very sensible to stop writing his story when he did and not try for an LOTR sequel.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lemmy]

Yeah, she didn't interview everyone.

IIRC, the episode literally ends with Serie saying"next".

[-D-]

You're misreading Serie, pendell.

She doesn't want power. She's just a relic of an ancient more bloodier era. In other words she loves fighting with spells.

Way to pass Series test is following:
1) Be bloodthirsty (try to attack her)
2) Be extremely warlike (spells that you pick is offensive or treat spells like tools)
3) Intrigue her. What Fern, Land and Methode did.

[Rising Phoenix]

So the season has ended and it has left me wanting for more...

I do agree that it is likely the best anime we've had for a few years. It certainly is the best fantasy anime we've had in the decade imo. Though we are blessed to have it and delicious in dungeon in the same season.

I would not call Serie evil like Saruman became- though if given the opportunity she would learn his magics. She's largely indifferent or pretends to be to the outside world.

Imo she's fairy similar to Frieren before she became attached to her adventuring parties. Or maybe she's choosing not to acknowledge that...

[-D-]

So the season has ended and it has left me wanting for more...

Don't worry there is enough manga for another season. I don't see it not getting an expansion.

Next season will be interesting. It deals with demons and how horrible is for everyone if they "try" to understand humanity. And if they can at all.

Imo she's fairy similar to Frieren before she became attached to her adventuring parties. Or maybe she's choosing not to acknowledge that...

It's fantasy but you still have tsundere elfs.

Edit: Regarding Serie not killing Demon Lord, it's quite possible Serie and him are equally skilled and neither wanted to see each other in a fair battle. Demon Lord couldn't be beaten by only Frieren, and he from wiki pictures looks like a fighter type. So a natural counter to Frieren.

[pendell]

Edit: Regarding Serie not killing Demon Lord, it's quite possible Serie and him are equally skilled and neither wanted to see each other in a fair battle. Demon Lord couldn't be beaten by only Frieren, and he from wiki pictures looks like a fighter type. So a natural counter to Frieren.

Don't forget that in their world demon status comes solely from their mana count. The Demon King, therefore, must have had more mana than any other demon. Possibly more than many of them combined. So he'd definitely be a powerful mage as well as fighter. Much like Aura the Guillotine, whom we saw as one of his subordinates, who was powerful enough to control an army of former humans she had ensorcelled but could also fight with a sword.

For that matter, the four demons we saw in that arc were all very competent fighters, and they incorporated their magic into their fighting style. Perhaps, not being human and not being subject to human lifespan, they don't need to specialize nearly as much as people do. For a human, if you spend three decades of life becoming a skilled mage your body will no longer be in prime shape for fighting, and likewise it would be very hard for a fighter past their prime to start all over to learn magecraft. Demons, who live for centuries , don't have that problem.

That's the last episode with the tagline "It would be embarrasing when we meet again". That's a line from Himmel, explaining why both he and Frieren aren't much for long, tearful goodbyes. Because he expects to meet them again, and tons of tears would make their next meeting embarrassing. Frieren adopted his view ... and I think that's a hidden message from the makers of the show to the audience as well. Just as Frieren says goodbye to many people, so are the showrunners telling us, the audience, goodbye ... until next season!

Some spoiler notes.

Spoiler

Show

Serie bans Frieren from the continental magic association and its facilities for a thousand years. Frieren calls this out as petty and I agree -- but I wouldn't take it too hard. If the CMA survives a thousand years in its current form that will be quite a feat.

And if the CMA still selects and trains war mages in an era of peace -- one wonders how long they will be part of the solution instead of part of the problem.
ETA: I just remembered a scene that touches on this. After the exams, Wirbel, the current first of the first-class mages, challenges Frieren to a duel. He is an extremely talented and powerful mage, but he didn't live in the time of heroes and thus didn't have the opportunity to make his name. History will forget him unless he does something dramatic, and the only way he can think to do it is to go down in history as Frieren's killer.

Frieren refuses his request for a duel, and tell him not to worry if history forgets him, and takes time to express her disdain for mages who know nothing but killing -- and she's right. We need warriors even in time of peace, but care must be taken to ensure we don't have too many and that they don't start fighting each other for fame and glory, causing problems when previously there were none. While there is a time for war, a mage has to room for other things besides fighting, contra serie, otherwise they'll spend all their time killing each other and inflict collateral damage on everyone around them. But that's just what someone like Serie will bring about, if she continues to promote mages solely on their talent for killing.

Serie passes everyone in the remaining interviews and apologizes to Sense, the proctor of the second test: There really was a bumper crop this year and Sense was right to pass them.

Denken -- she passes him because, rather than being stupefied by her mana, he began immediately thinking of how he would fight her. He immediately abandons the idea, but he still has some fire and ambition in him. And his talent as a military mage, is unquestioned. She passes him.

Ubel passes without comment. This isn't surprising; There's no one and nothing Ubel can't visualize herself defeating. She might even be a match for Serie herself if she could empathize with her enough to steal her powers. Still, this is why I don't like Ubel or Serie -- Ubel's a conscienceless killer, and she's the kind of person who should be under restraint at minimum, not given full privileges. At least one other mage comments as much.

As for Serie -- a person who would welcome Ubel and dismiss Frieren is not someone I would want deciding who should and' shouldn't be on the top of the mage hierarchy.

UPDATE: Interesting trivia note

"Übel is a German word meaning "nasty", "foul", "evil" or "sick"/"sickness"."

That couldn't be foreshadowing , could it? Ubel is going to be a villain in story, though maybe not in this one. It's just possible she'll be the one to kill Serie. I have no doubt she can.

Land passes. He never was actually on the testing grounds at all ; he had sent doubles , and doubles of doubles, on his behalf. That's not even him in the room for the interview. Serie calls him on it, and reaches out to contact him back where he really is, and he is shocked at her insight. But she passes him; he has guts.

Wirbel passes. She ask him a question: "Tell me your favorite spell". He responds: "Magic is a tool for killing; I have no favorite spells."

Right answer. Pass.

Well, yes, he's a battlemage whose job is protecting the borders from demons. It's an entirely reasonable attitude for him to have. We later see him helping a woman pick up her spilled fruit while Frieren looks on. Wirbel may be a battlemage, but he got into his job fundamentally to help people, because Himmel and the party came to his town and, in addition to saving it, had done a lot of small things to help the people. It's the little things, the small kindnesses, that Himmel had loved more than any.

Like Gandalf in our earlier conversations.

And it is because he had time for small people that Wirbel is alive today.

So he is an interesting blend of both Serie's and Frieren's viewpoints. Like Serie, he is a battlemage. Like Frieren, he has time for other things besides fighting. I like that.

Methode passes, but she didn't make much of an impression on me. Doing a quick check, when she speaks to Serie she says she can think of nothing but how kawai'i Serie is. She isn't intimidated by Serie's great mana, so Serie, again, passes her. She's got the aptitude to be a mage, which this interview is about, while the previous two stages demonstrated both her talent and skill. So pass.

We don't see the graduation ceremony , but we don't really need to. Serie grants each of the graduates one spell of hers, and Fern chooses one that magically cleans clothes, so making laundry a breeze. Frieren is delighted. Fern is indeed her student, and Frieren foresees that Fern will become a greater mage, at least in popular legend, then Frieren herself.

I anticipate this as well. Fern is another Flamme in the making, though we probably won't see this fully play out for a very long time.


It's been a great run, and I hope to see you all in season 2!

Respectfully,

Brian P.