Increasing caster level... Not spell progression with any PrC, Feats...

[Condé]

Hi,

Heirophant and Green Star Adept both increase your caster level but not your spell progression. (Green Star Adept at 1/2 and Heirophant not at all)

For an example here is the text in Green Star Adept

Improved Caster Level (Ex): A Green Star adept adds his class level to his caster level in another arcane spellcasting class to determine his effective spellcaster level. If the character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a Green Star adept, the player must decide to which class to add each adept level for this purpose. For example, a 5th-level wizard/4th-level Green Star adept?s caster level would be 9th, due to this ability, but he would only have access to 4th-level spells (5th-level wizard plus two arcane spellcasting class levels from being a 4th-level Green Star adept).

Is there any other PrC working like that? Or boosting some kind of type of spell, spells with specific descriptor... Anything goes really.

I have read a lot of thread on the subject and there is the excellent guide from Pabelfly "Raising Caster Level" as a ressource.

What I am looking for is to be able to boost spells like Hammer of Righteousness or Wings of Flury, two spells that do not have cap on how much d6 they can inflict based on your caster level.

I am not looking for being optimized, T1 or anything. The more focus on these spells, the better. That's why losing spell progression is not a big deal, in that case.

Thanks.

[Anthrowhale]

There are many +1,+2,+3,+4 style caster level increases but only a few big caster level increases. Are you interested in those?

Off hand, the biggies are Circle Magic (Hathran, Halruaan Elder, Red Wizard) to caster level 40, the circle magic feat in Ghostwalk to caster level 20, the Psiotheurgist and Theurgic Specialist feats from Dragon magazine which add together caster levels, and the Knight of the weave which adds another caster level to KotW casting.

Of these the KotW approach is the least powerful. Something like Wizard (spontaneous divination ACF) 5/Knight of the Weave 1/Ultimate Magus <n>.

[Rebel7284]

Eldritch Master from Dragon #280 comes to mind for spontaneous casters.

edit:

What I am looking for is to be able to boost spells like Hammer of Righteousness or Wings of Flury, two spells that do not have cap on how much d6 they can inflict based on your caster level.

Typically, the best way to boost a spell is by applying Metamagic to it. Since metamagic typically increases the spell slot of the spell, spell progression remains very important. After all you would have to increase your caster level a LOT to match a Twin Spell + Maximize Spell + Empower Spell on Hammer of Righteousness.

Google something like "The mailman D&D 3.5 optimization"

[Condé]

There are many +1,+2,+3,+4 style caster level increases but only a few big caster level increases. Are you interested in those?

Off hand, the biggies are Circle Magic (Hathran, Halruaan Elder, Red Wizard) to caster level 40, the circle magic feat in Ghostwalk to caster level 20, the Psiotheurgist and Theurgic Specialist feats from Dragon magazine which add together caster levels, and the Knight of the weave which adds another caster level to KotW casting.

Of these the KotW approach is the least powerful. Something like Wizard (spontaneous divination ACF) 5/Knight of the Weave 1/Ultimate Magus <n>.

I haven't thought about the Knight of the Weave that way. Interesting.

Eldritch Master from Dragon #280 comes to mind for spontaneous casters.

edit:


Typically, the best way to boost a spell is by applying Metamagic to it. Since metamagic typically increases the spell slot of the spell, spell progression remains very important. After all you would have to increase your caster level a LOT to match a Twin Spell + Maximize Spell + Empower Spell on Hammer of Righteousness.

Google something like "The mailman D&D 3.5 optimization"

You don't really need to increase your spellcasting *that* much if you use metamagic reduction tho. Before maximizing and empowering your spell, you better pump up these d6... Hence why I need to boost my caster level first.

-----

The most *interesting* and practical thing I have found lately is Wild Mage. Just take Practiced spellcaster and it is free +1d6 caster level each time you cast a spell. Not reliable, but not bad overall.

[Anthrowhale]

The most *interesting* and practical thing I have found lately is Wild Mage. Just take Practiced spellcaster and it is free +1d6 caster level each time you cast a spell. Not reliable, but not bad overall.

Wild Mage requires an effective 2 feat tax (Magical Aptitude + Practiced Spellcaster) and folks debate whether you can break up the wild magic class feature in the order -3 (wild magic)+3(practiced spellcaster)+1d6(wild magic) or if you are stuck with -3+1d6(wild magic) + 0-2 (Practiced spellcaster). I'd probably go with the latter although it hasn't come up in a game.

At a 2ish feat tax, Archivist 1/Abyssal Specialist(DotU) Wizard[Aligned Spellcaster[Chaotic](Dragon #357) ACF] 3/Mystic Theurge <n> with feats: Alternate Source Spell(Dragon #325) at level 3 and Theurgic Specialist(Dragon #325) at level 6 provides ECL+2 caster level at ECL 6 and it grows from there by 2 per level. (The 'ish' is because you lose your familiar as well.)

[Condé]

Elemental Spellcasting (Ex): Whenever you cast a spell with an elemental or energy descriptor that matches your chosen element, you add your elemental scion class level to your caster level. For the purpose of this ability, spells with the air or electricity descriptor match the air element, spells with the acid or earth descriptor match earth, spells with the fire descriptor match fire, and spells with the cold or water descriptor match water.

Elemental Scion of Zilargo, Magic of Eberron.

[eBarbarossa]

Hallowed Witch from Ravenloft gives a CL increase to ALL spellcasting classes she has.

[AsuraKyoko]

It's not a very good option most of the time, but Half Dragon Paragon boosts sorcerer caster level

[Gorthawar]

Yathrinshee gets to add all her caster levels together for necromancy spells. Even a simple build like Cleric6/Wizard1/Yathrinshee3/Mystic Theurge10 adds up to CL 31.

[pabelfly]

You might find this thread useful:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...g-Caster-Level

[Condé]

You might find this thread useful:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...g-Caster-Level

Nice try, mr. Pabelfly, but you won't get credited two times in the same thread for your work. (Look at the OP )

(Seriously, this is a really impressive list.)

[pabelfly]

Nice try, mr. Pabelfly, but you won't get credited two times in the same thread for your work. (Look at the OP )

(Seriously, this is a really impressive list.)

Well, that will show me for skim-reading. Glad you liked the list. I can't claim all the credit though, it was a lot of work from other people contributing too.

So, to spend a bit more time on a response: I've found that metamagic and metamagic reducers have much more bang-for-your-buck in boosting the amount of damage dice a spell has, except maybe at the very lowest levels. Empower Spell does a 1.5x multiplier and there are multiple ways to get that down to a +1 or even a +0 with a few options like Arcane Thesis. If Empower Spell isn't doing enough, you can add Enervate Spell and Energize Spell, and you're doing 2.25x damage to anything that isn't a Construct or an object.

Still, adding even just a few extra damage dice from a higher caster level can stack up, especially with metamagic damage multipliers. I'd specifically check out the following options:
- Reserves of Strength - Works really well on a bulky caster that doesn't mind some recoil damage (I had fun with a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, but you might find other options). It also explicitly goes over the caster level damage cap, so can be great for boosting spells that are otherwise at their limits.
- Arcane Thesis - as well as being one of the best ways to reduce metamagic costs, this adds +2 to your caster level for one specific spell
- Raistlin's Frog - +5 to caster levels for five rounds is stupidly OP for 1K gold.
- Permanent Items - there's a lot that are really cheap, like 300 gold or so, that boost your caster level by +1. I'd work out what your strategy is and what item you could incorporate into your build. Also check out "Changing Spell Type" to see how you can change or add new spell types to your preferred spells if you can't benefit without it.
- Domains - if you can add a domain to your build without much issue, that can be an easy +1. See here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...-a-Spell-List/) for some ways to do this. Domain Access Sorcerer is a cheap way to do this if you're a Sorcerer, for example.

In any case, good luck with your build.

[Condé]

Well, that will show me for skim-reading. Glad you liked the list. I can't claim all the credit though, it was a lot of work from other people contributing too.

So, to spend a bit more time on a response: I've found that metamagic and metamagic reducers have much more bang-for-your-buck in boosting the amount of damage dice a spell has, except maybe at the very lowest levels. Empower Spell does a 1.5x multiplier and there are multiple ways to get that down to a +1 or even a +0 with a few options like Arcane Thesis. If Empower Spell isn't doing enough, you can add Enervate Spell and Energize Spell, and you're doing 2.25x damage to anything that isn't a Construct or an object.

Still, adding even just a few extra damage dice from a higher caster level can stack up, especially with metamagic damage multipliers. I'd specifically check out the following options:
- Reserves of Strength - Works really well on a bulky caster that doesn't mind some recoil damage (I had fun with a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, but you might find other options). It also explicitly goes over the caster level damage cap, so can be great for boosting spells that are otherwise at their limits.
- Arcane Thesis - as well as being one of the best ways to reduce metamagic costs, this adds +2 to your caster level for one specific spell
- Raistlin's Frog - +5 to caster levels for five rounds is stupidly OP for 1K gold.
- Permanent Items - there's a lot that are really cheap, like 300 gold or so, that boost your caster level by +1. I'd work out what your strategy is and what item you could incorporate into your build. Also check out "Changing Spell Type" to see how you can change or add new spell types to your preferred spells if you can't benefit without it.
- Domains - if you can add a domain to your build without much issue, that can be an easy +1. See here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...-a-Spell-List/) for some ways to do this. Domain Access Sorcerer is a cheap way to do this if you're a Sorcerer, for example.

In any case, good luck with your build.

What saddens me is I know most of what you just listed and considered it.
Except the Raistling frog but mostly because I am not a big fan of consumables. But that's another story.

I guess I should have tell what I was aiming for at first.

I have a game going right now and most people are in melee, we only have one caster, a cleric, but with a Marshall level and he is going to multiclass again into something else which is going to hurt his casting even more.
The rest is a Crusader. A factotum. A swaschbuckler/rogue and... Me. So not really a tier 1 game.
The cleric's build is not even prepared apparently btw.

So I am trying to make a caster, not a support of any kind since I always end up doing that because nobody ever think debuffs/save or loose/giga buff your party is the key to Victory. (It is. I mean I have played some casters before and ended up negating a big part of any threat before the second turn even started. And it is not something special or what it is just how casters are past a certain level...)

Aaaannd... I want to make something "good" but not too much. I mean I like making character builds and I cannot accept the Idea of "sabotaging" a build just because the other are not looking to make something "OP". Which is for the better since they are playing what they want to play not what is strong.

So I wanted to blast for a change since it is not really the best strategy, one can argue it might be one of the worst, but for our group that would be enough.

My problem is I end up making builds that are way too strong for the party... So I am looking for a class that hurts spellcasting, with cool features, that doesn't not hurt caster level too badly.

Warmage seems to be the answer to all my issues.

My plan is, funny enough, to hurt myself while casting just for fun. The fact you mentioned Reserves of Strength as a way to hurt yourself is a really nice coïncidence... Since most people doesn't know that it deals damage to you if you are stun immune.

Beside that there is options. I am still looking for what to do.

[pabelfly]

What saddens me is I know most of what you just listed and considered it.
Except the Raistling frog but mostly because I am not a big fan of consumables. But that's another story.

I guess I should have tell what I was aiming for at first.

I have a game going right now and most people are in melee, we only have one caster, a cleric, but with a Marshall level and he is going to multiclass again into something else which is going to hurt his casting even more.
The rest is a Crusader. A factotum. A swaschbuckler/rogue and... Me. So not really a tier 1 game.
The cleric's build is not even prepared apparently btw.

So I am trying to make a caster, not a support of any kind since I always end up doing that because nobody ever think debuffs/save or loose/giga buff your party is the key to Victory. (It is. I mean I have played some casters before and ended up negating a big part of any threat before the second turn even started. And it is not something special or what it is just how casters are past a certain level...)

Aaaannd... I want to make something "good" but not too much. I mean I like making character builds and I cannot accept the Idea of "sabotaging" a build just because the other are not looking to make something "OP". Which is for the better since they are playing what they want to play not what is strong.

So I wanted to blast for a change since it is not really the best strategy, one can argue it might be one of the worst, but for our group that would be enough.

My problem is I end up making builds that are way too strong for the party... So I am looking for a class that hurts spellcasting, with cool features, that doesn't not hurt caster level too badly.

Warmage seems to be the answer to all my issues.

My plan is, funny enough, to hurt myself while casting just for fun. The fact you mentioned Reserves of Strength as a way to hurt yourself is a really nice coïncidence... Since most people doesn't know that it deals damage to you if you are stun immune.

Beside that there is options. I am still looking for what to do.

Small correction - Raistlin's frog works once per day, it's not a consumable.

So, for blasting, if your DM wants some easy tools to limit your power if you're overperforming, they have elemental resistance, elemental immunity and (depending on your spell choice/s) spell resistance. Some elements are rarer to resist than others, so you might consider basing your build on an element that is more often resisted (acid, cold or fire) if you go with a particular element as a build theme.

If you're focused on a couple of spells (very likely), your DM understanding how each spell is best used might also be helpful.

I'd be interested in what sort of build you come up with that meets your criteria and how it goes (I have similar problems to you) so keep us updated once you start playing it.

[Condé]

Small correction - Raistlin's frog works once per day, it's not a consumable.

So, for blasting, if your DM wants some easy tools to limit your power if you're overperforming, they have elemental resistance, elemental immunity and (depending on your spell choice/s) spell resistance. Some elements are rarer to resist than others, so you might consider basing your build on an element that is more often resisted (acid, cold or fire) if you go with a particular element as a build theme.

If you're focused on a couple of spells (very likely), your DM understanding how each spell is best used might also be helpful.

I'd be interested in what sort of build you come up with that meets your criteria and how it goes (I have similar problems to you) so keep us updated once you start playing it.

--I am going of the rails on my own thread, I am sorry--

My first thought was, as always, trying to make a character with lot of magic but no level in a spellcasting class. And the DM of this game I was talking about earlier allowed my wildest fantasy put in a feat... Trollblooded.
So obviously I was going to make the build around that feat and nothing else. So obviously I was going to make a self-harm build.


There is plenty of options. But because of specifics and because this is not a showcase, the build must be playable and fun at (almost) every level. The problem with a lot of stuff you can see in competitions (Iron Chef for example) is that they are not meant to be playable. They have a sweet spot, but most come online really late. Sadly, most games do not go that far. (Last 3 years long campaign I played it went to level 15 maybe? So a build with a sweet spot at level 13 is not ideal... As you can tell.)

Option#1:

Dragonmarks. Mostly unknown or forgotten, and the only ingredient of a junkyard wars with only 1 participant and the whole thread is about rule arguments, Eberron specific so not used much in other competitions here... so very few ressources to take inspiration from on Giantitp, but on other forums too...
But I digress.

The build is simple. As a dwarf you can take the Warding Dragonmark and cast Explosive Rune. That's it. That's the build. I love this spell so much. Basically, you take some levels of barbarians, or some other class that fits your liking, try to fill the prerequisite for Dragonmarked Heir and enter the class at level 5 (!) and you get Explosive Runes as a non-spellcasting class...

The thing is, you do not want to throw explosives runes at people or try to make some convoluted shenanigans to force your enemy to read the rune... No. You know how the spell work and you kno that people close enough to read the runes take full damage. How do you get really close to people? By sharing your space with them. How de we achieve that? By grabbing. Obviously.

So you mostly are a grappler, with a bunch of Explosive runes written on his clothes (You might want to buy cheap gloves from AEG, and stuff like that, try to put runes on clothes seen easily (Not a hat for example)). You move, or charge, grapple and read your rune. Only problem here: There is defined action for reading a single word as far as I know. Is it a free action? A swift action? A standard, a move? Who knows. Explosive rune wasn't designed with that tactic in mind i believe.
Oh and you are going to ask me how you are supposed to survive. It's easy: Fiery Berserker. Immune to fire damage. So your grappled enemy take full Explosive Rune damage and you... Nothing. No save allowed for them.
As you advance in levels, you can buy channeling rods (Metamagic rods for dragonmarks) and take Empower/Maximized spell-like ability to boost your runes. And later, when monsters become too bulkyto die from a single rune, you can ask a spellcaster or someone with a wand to cast a dispel check on you (And fail voluntarily, which counter the argument of if you can fail to dispell your own spell since... It's not you casting the dispell) to make all your runes go boom in one round. (Try to stack up multiple runes and carry some on you but give some to your comrades, that way they are activating 3-4 runes at once and not every single one of them. Or carry them in a bag and drop the bag at the beginning of the fight if you are fighting mooks and carry the bag with ALL your runes if you are fighting a really big evil dude you want to one shot).

After that, just buy items allowing you to teleport (anklet of teleportation is cheap) to help you reach people and grab them.


I cannot play him since melee is crowded. But it made me laugh once I put all the pieces together.
I also add a level of binder early on and be evil to get some feat that damage ability score like Insane Defiance and such for even more "self-harming that doesn't matter" hilarity.

EDIT: It doesn't work since Explosive Runes deal FORCE damage. (I am a dumb dumb)

Option #2:

Not gonna play it because I do not like to delay entering into a PrC (Don't ask) but if you are not like me you can go Duskblade Illumian (Improved Sigil Krau for a heightened spell for free, giving you a 2n level spell and allowing you to fullfill any prerequisite of having a second level spell, legit and RAW legal even by the FAQ, which does not mean much but can still serves you from time to time) Barbarian into Rage Mage.

Do not go in melee too much, surprise your enemies by raging and throwing spells at them (Dusbklades have Kelgore's Fire Bolt in their spell list, surprisingly enough). Take some feat to be immune to stun and Reserves of Strength (Really OP spell but not that much if you are only using evocation spell, even more on that configuration since you are a Duskblade), Fiery Berserker to be immune to fire while raging... If you do not care too much about spell casting levels, you can hurt it even more since Rage Mage scale your CL to your character level so if you want to focus your build on some low level spells you can do that.

I cannot take this route since I am trying to fit a level of binder... Because sacrificing HP isn't enough, I want to sacrifice my abilities too... And the earlier you can enter Rage mage is level 5, but by taking binder and losing a point of bab I would have to wait until level 6. Which mean the first 5 level would be pretty painful. (Rage or cast spells, but not both. Really wonky. Not good in melee, not good caster either... Eh.)

Option#3

I have been toying with the idea of using Corrupt/Sanctified spells to inflict self-harm. Then using Reserves of Strength for damaging hitpoints or other spell (There is not much out there damaging hp and I think I have them all).

The most recent iteration is a Focused specialist, to ban as much schools as possible to prevent any form of "being batman", over specializing into Evocation. Maybe add Specialist School Mastery into the mix or Spontaneous divination to enter a prc that requires spontaneous casting...

I won't tell too much since every time I try to make a build with a full spellcasting class I cannot help myself but go too far and see how much they can achieve and remember my party might suffer from that. I do not like the idea of overshadowing other people at the table. It is awful to have one character clearly stronger than the other.
The DM is not a beginner but isn't a "veteran" either (I do not like this term but I fail to find my words this morning) and I don't want to break his homemade campaign he might have put a lot time and effort writing and preparing.

Option#4

I also have a low-level "One punch man" build. I know there is a monster mash competition about that, funnily enough, so if it can give people idea you can try this route. Iwon't detail it too much because, as I said, melee is crowded atm in my party and I have no interest going this route any further.

Race: Warforged
Class: Duskblade 5
Feat: Dragontouched (For Dragonblood subtype), Shocking fist
Item: Battlefist + Band of Bloodrage

Slam attack: 1d8+2 (Hypothetical str bonus)
+1 (Battlefist dmg bonus)
+3d6 (Blade of Blood, Swift action, sacrifice 5 hp)
+ 5d4 (shocking fist, as free action, you can take 1 point of damage for every point of bab you have got to add 1d4 damage)
+ Shocking Grasp (5d6) (Standard action, arcane channeling)

Or you can use your bands of blood rage instead of using Blade of Blood, or cast blade of blood preventively
Slam attack: 1d8+2 (Hypothetical str bonus)
+1 (Battlefist dmg bonus)
+5 (Band of bloodrage, melee bonus to damage, cost 5hp/round)
+3d6 (Blade of Blood, Swift action, sacrifice 5 hp)
+5 (Band of Bloodrage, damage applied to every spell casted during the turn)
+ 5d4 (shocking fist, as free action, you can take 1 point of damage for every point of bab you have got to add 1d4 damage)
+ Shocking Grasp (5d6) (Standard action, arcane channeling)
+5 (Band of Bloodrage, damage applied to every spell casted during the turn)

(Yes if you can have blade of blood and shocking grasp in the same turn, Bands of bloodrage apply to both of them in addition to your melee attack)

It will cost you:
2 level 1 spells slots + 10hp

Average damage:
4.5+3+1+10.5+12.5+17.5 = 49 +15 = 64

Max damage:
11+1+5+18+5+20+30+5 = 80

Or less if you cannot cast blade of blood + activate bands of blood rage but you get the idea.


-- Back to the topic--

Really sad non-advancing spell casting classes are bad. I even considered Thrall of Fraz-Urb'luu (has to copy/past it, not gonna lie) for the Staff Mastery ability which fit perfectly with the self-damaging concept. (Trade CON for staff charges which is great if you have Naberius) But i comes online really late AND need you to have a bunch of illusion spells.
With the third option presented you could keep evocation and illusion as allowed schools and take that route tho.
Still pondering.

But Mystic/Eldritch Master are disapointing for example.
Green Star Adept fit the bill but is garbage as it doesn't give you anything fun to play with. (And cost you money)

EDIT: I almost forgot! (This post wasn't messy enough) if you are interested by dragonmarks, you can take an Aberrant Dragonmarks and go into the Child of Khyber prc and get something like Scorching ray and Cone of Cold as SLAs. (And get Cone of cold 2 level earlier than a wizard if I recall correctly). You just have to take feats/items that gives you more use or your SLAs per day and you are like a pocket evoker on top of any class you want.

[Anthrowhale]

You mentioned Warmage as fitting the bill, but you might also consider Wilder. Wild Surge, Overchannel, Body Fuel, and Anarchic Initiate's Chaotic Surge provide masochistic means for power. The few powers known, relatively rare manifester level increasing effects, and generally underpowered nature of blasting baselines leaves modest headroom for over-optimization. A Mailman Wilder seems like a challenge.

[pabelfly]

--I am going of the rails on my own thread, I am sorry--

My first thought was, as always, trying to make a character with lot of magic but no level in a spellcasting class.

Here's a thread about a similar topic: "Mundanity and how to Overcome It Handbook"

Hope that helps.