A Perfect Defense!

[Unoriginal]

If only Isildur would have thrown that ring into the crack of doom when he had the chance, we'd have been spared the drudgery of LotR.

Worth noting that all the "Isildur could have thrown the One Ring in the volcano but didn't have the willpower to do it" stuff was invented for the movie. As was the "Isildur defeated Sauron" stuff.

In the book, Sauron fights Gil-Galad and Elendil, fists vs spear and sword, and they kill each other. Then Isildur cuts off the finger of Sauron's corpse to loot the One Ring, with no one in the Last Alliance knowing what it was or what it did.

[Errorname]

There was nothing reasonable or well-thought-out about that plan.

I think it has correctly identified a weakness of the original strategy, the inability of the scribbler's to proactively respond to attacks on the other gates. I think it overcorrects into full disclosure and sacrifices some very useful layers of defense in the process, concealing the existence and location of the gates from bad actors is a valuable defensive asset.

It also assumes a political situation where the threat of the Snarl will prevent conflict over the gates and where even villainous political actors would be trusted to not mess with the pillars holding up reality, neither of which are bets I'd want to make. Girard's Gate is located in the center of the most contested territory on the planet with a ton of evil warlords all jockeying for any advantage that might let them consolidate power over the region.

[Unoriginal]

I think it has correctly identified a weakness of the original strategy, the inability of the scribbler's to proactively respond to attacks on the other gates.

I mean, they weren't unable to do it, they deliberately chose to not set up the defense like that.

I think it overcorrects into full disclosure and sacrifices some very useful layers of defense in the process, concealing the existence and location of the gates from bad actors is a valuable defensive asset.

It also assumes a political situation where the threat of the Snarl will prevent conflict over the gates and where even villainous political actors would be trusted to not mess with the pillars holding up reality, neither of which are bets I'd want to make. Girard's Gate is located in the center of the most contested territory on the planet with a ton of evil warlords all jockeying for any advantage that might let them consolidate power over the region.

Accurate.

It also assume that Redcloak's lies to Xykon are the only reason why he or anyone like him would gun for the Gates.

[Tubercular Ox]

But there's been a snarl that has been desiring and able to.

Given that TDO isn't in any of the pantheons, that hardly matters.
They already know how to preserve themselves; destroy the world, make a new one to trap the snarl in.

Disagree. The Snarl's surprise attack that wiped out the Eastern Pantheon was orders of magnitude more dire than this thing that they see coming.
I don't see the point of that paragraph. The vote had to do with preemptive destruction, not "the balloon just went up, gotta do it again" destruction.
There already has been, hence the whole story and in particular Book 6.

We need to start over. Your answers seem a little random compared to what I was trying to say. It's probably my fault.

How about a different angle? Loki, God of Flames and Chaos, is allied with his nemesis and against the safety of his own family. He's already threatened to make Thor responsible for anything that happens to his daughter because of his own decisions. How do you think Rich is going to write the transition from that to the professional gambler who's going to fold on his family and on imprisoning the Snarl forever because the stakes weren't high enough?

[brian 333]

Getting back to the original topic.

I'm not sure it would work, but I think the OP came up with a reasonable, well-thought-out plan that (possibly) could have prevented the entire story of a comic that currently supports Rich and his family.

I am confident that The Author would still be a successful storyteller no matter how the gates are defended. Perhaps TOotS would have a different mission, or perhaps we would be reading The Company of the Dustbunnies, but I am certain it would be as fascinating and as entertaining as the current story.

There was nothing reasonable or well-thought-out about that plan.

Again, the only way it'd work was if the OotS world was solely populated by emotionless lawful neutral exemplars devoided of ambition and curiosity. And if that was the case you can save yourself the zipper gate and just invest in "do not touch" signs.

Opinion noted. I have to point out that the current defenses only held out for two human, three goblin, or one halfling generation. Not really sure how any defense could do worse.

Worth noting that all the "Isildur could have thrown the One Ring in the volcano but didn't have the willpower to do it" stuff was invented for the movie. As was the "Isildur defeated Sauron" stuff.

In the book, Sauron fights Gil-Galad and Elendil, fists vs spear and sword, and they kill each other. Then Isildur cuts off the finger of Sauron's corpse to loot the One Ring, with no one in the Last Alliance knowing what it was or what it did.

Elrond recalls urging Isuldur to throw the ring into the Cracks of Doom in Fellowship of the Ring. It appears that at least one bearer of an Elven Ring knew what it was.

Please note that my concept here has nothing to do with changing The Giant's story. In response to the many, many critiques and rankings of the effectiveness of the various gates, I proposed to 'design a gate' and, like the various gates in the story, subject it to judgement against a standard of 'perfect effectiveness.'

So, seeing that it is easier to pick out flaws than it is to create new theories, I would like to see more 'Perfect Defenses' proposed. Perhaps The Giant will have a similar, or better idea for The Gates 2.0, and the poster can get an 'Internet Told Ya So' badge.

[Jay R]

I am confident that The Author would still be a successful storyteller no matter how the gates are defended. Perhaps TOotS would have a different mission, or perhaps we would be reading The Company of the Dustbunnies, but I am certain it would be as fascinating and as entertaining as the current story.

And people would be trying to come up with ways to prevent that story, too.

The crucial observation remains: the author is not looking for a clever way to prevent his story from occurring.

[brian 333]

And people would be trying to come up with ways to prevent that story, too.

The crucial observation remains: the author is not looking for a clever way to prevent his story from occurring.

Reposted from the post previous to yours:

...Please note that my concept here has nothing to do with changing The Giant's story. In response to the many, many critiques and rankings of the effectiveness of the various gates, I proposed to 'design a gate' and, like the various gates in the story, subject it to judgement against a standard of 'perfect effectiveness.'

The point here is not to "correct" the author, but to have a bit of fun in his playground.

[Errorname]

Opinion noted. I have to point out that the current defenses only held out for two human, three goblin, or one halfling generation. Not really sure how any defense could do worse.

At several points the current defenses were almost good enough to win the day, or manage to buy a considerable amount of time, so it's very easy for me to imagine defensive strategies that perform worse. Not all failures are equal.

[brian 333]

Girard's Gate is located in the center of the most contested territory on the planet with a ton of evil warlords all jockeying for any advantage that might let them consolidate power over the region.

I do not see any advantage to holding a gate, but it does impose liabilities.

What advantage can one achieve holding a gate?

Threaten to destroy the world?
Actually destroy the world?
Some other thing like gaining access to the threads and potentially destroying the world?

I'm not clear on how this can be converted to an advantage if everyone knows what the gate is. It is only the fact that virtually no one knows what they are which allows anyone to control a gate.

The liabilities are apparent. If one takes a gate to threaten destruction, that person becomes a target for everyone.

Imagine a single item, such as a magic genie-lamp, that gives a person unlimited wishes. So long as it is a secret, the owner can get whatever he wants. The moment others know about it, they will do their best to take it for themselves. The more people who know, the more potential murderers and thieves will appear.

Now, the gates cannot grant wishes, and if no one knows what they are, they cannot even credibly be used to make threats. Threats only work when the target believes it to be credible. So, it would seem that everyone knowing would mean everyone could be threatened.

But the genie-lamp analogy demonstrates that everyone who can would do whatever they can to be the one making the threat, and I wonder how many warlords would have to be assassinated for them to get the idea that there is no up-side to gate ownership?

The same applies to those who want to destroy the gate. Anyone whose goal is to kill everyone and everything would be faced with everyone who wants to live opposing him. No up-side there, and no benefit to actually owning or controlling one.

The destruction option seems easiest of all; Roy took out a gate with a pointy stick. So, where is the instruction manual? A copy of Gate Repair For Dummies should be everywhere, so that when some Evil attacker, mindless idiot, self-righteous zealot, or well-meaning would-be hero comes along the damage can be repaired.

As for the unknown third option, whatever comes of that is already covered in the above.

[Jay R]

So, where is the instruction manual? A copy of Gate Repair For Dummies should be everywhere, so that when some Evil attacker, mindless idiot, self-righteous zealot, or well-meaning would-be hero comes along the damage can be repaired.

Unfortunately, the instruction manual starts with, "Destroy the universe and everybody in it. Then start over."

[Errorname]

Even if the only utility of a gate was "pillar holding up reality" and any interaction with it would have only negative consequences (which does not appear to be the case), if their existence was public knowledge people would probably still fight wars over them. Do you think the Elves would trust the Empire of Blood to control the Western Gate?

The only way this plan works is that if everyone cares enough to actively strike against anyone trying to use the gates but don't care enough to get really paranoid about their political rivals controlling the button that ends the world.

[brian 333]

Even if the only utility of a gate was "pillar holding up reality" and any interaction with it would have only negative consequences (which does not appear to be the case), if their existence was public knowledge people would probably still fight wars over them. Do you think the Elves would trust the Empire of Blood to control the Western Gate?

The only way this plan works is that if everyone cares enough to actively strike against anyone trying to use the gates but don't care enough to get really paranoid about their political rivals controlling the button that ends the world.

Which is why nobody would want to control one. It serves no practical purpose, politically, except to get the controller killed.

It certainly would be watched, by everyone with power. And a bunch of people with commoner-level power might set up concessions nearby to profit off of the fools who want to push the button, but otherwise it is a dunsel.

But, we need more Perfect Defenses. Here is an option the gods will hate.

Each gate could be enclosed in its own pocket universe, each of which has nothing capable of sustaining life, and each pocket universe could be hidden where nobody will ever find them.

[gbaji]

What advantage can one achieve holding a gate?

Threaten to destroy the world?
Actually destroy the world?
Some other thing like gaining access to the threads and potentially destroying the world?

The problem is that you keep looping back to this assumption, despite somewhere around a dozen other posters having listed off a number of other possible things that could be done with a gate that have nothing at all to do with destroying the world. And, as has also been previously linked in this thread the author has also said this

It is possible that someone could learn to harness the power of the Snarl, perhaps releasing it under more controlled circumstances, with the proper magic. Mr. Scruffy further hypothesizes that the gates may enable such a plan by defusing the Snarls energy.

Everything else you have argued falls from the starting premise that it's not possible to use the gates to empower onesself without bringing about the destruction of the world. That is the core basis for your assumption that everyone would fight super hard to prevent anyone from gaining control of any gate. But that starting premise is false. Ergo, the conclusions based on that premise are also false.

As a general rule, by far the best way to keep bad people from using something dangerous is for them to not know it exists in the first place. Yes, this leads to exciting stories when some bbeg does discover such things, and works to get their hands on them. Great. But the alternative is... well... worse.

If I were planning as perfect a defense as possible, I'd do something similar to what a few folks have posted about in the past. Bury the gates in some kind of solid magic/ethereal/plannar blocking stone. Build a solid mountain on top of that. Then put some kind of listening devices buried inside the mountain that warn me if someone is digging into it anywhere near where my solid block of gate burying stone is.

Then yeah. Take a page from Soon, and build a secret organization dedicated to monitoring these things, and responding if any threat appears involving them. Otherwise, said organization is doing other things, and appears to be a normal adventuring guild, paladins guild, wizards guild, whatever, but with a "secret purpose" that none but the more senioir members are even aware of (except if some emergency happens involving a gate, of course). Said organization would also secretly hold the information needed to repair or rebuild (or build from scratch) any gates.

Yup. This goes in the opposite direction than what you proposed. I think it would be massively more successful. Could potentially last centuries, or even forever, since it also contains within it methods to deal with new rifts if they form. I suspect that the Scribblers might have come up with something more like this, had they not had their falling out. Imagine a single global organization, founded by the Scribblers, on the surface an adventuring guild, formed by epic level adventurers to help guide new folks into the trade, but hiding a secret purpose the whole time. It's potentially a very self sustaining model, and would be very successful.

And heck. The story practically writes itself too. Not like that background and setting (or similar) hasn't been used for dozens of other fantasy/magical based plots already. And also utterly believable. Which just increases the likelihood of long term success.

[Provengreil]

Everything else you have argued falls from the starting premise that it's not possible to use the gates to empower onesself without bringing about the destruction of the world. That is the core basis for your assumption that everyone would fight super hard to prevent anyone from gaining control of any gate. But that starting premise is false. Ergo, the conclusions based on that premise are also false.

I'd like to add to this point. Even if it's completely impossible to harness a gate for personal gain, there's going to be no shortage of madmen willing to try. That kind of thing makes people very jumpy. A lot of potentially damaging events can still happen just because someone wants to try, and others won't just let them because the risk is too great if they turn out to be right.

Yup. This goes in the opposite direction than what you proposed. I think it would be massively more successful. Could potentially last centuries, or even forever, since it also contains within it methods to deal with new rifts if they form. I suspect that the Scribblers might have come up with something more like this, had they not had their falling out. Imagine a single global organization, founded by the Scribblers, on the surface an adventuring guild, formed by epic level adventurers to help guide new folks into the trade, but hiding a secret purpose the whole time. It's potentially a very self sustaining model, and would be very successful.

Oh, I really like this idea. Even the self awareness of Stickworld plays into it.

[Errorname]

Which is why nobody would want to control one. It serves no practical purpose, politically, except to get the controller killed.

This is not a matter of want. The gates exist within the world and will fall into territory controlled by various powers. One of the gates is literally within the borders of a major city.

It certainly would be watched, by everyone with power.

Right, but why would I as a political leader be comfortable with one of the pins holding reality together being within the borders of my rival. Who knows what that idiot might do with it!

Each gate could be enclosed in its own pocket universe, each of which has nothing capable of sustaining life, and each pocket universe could be hidden where nobody will ever find them.

Considering that the function of the gates is to keep this universe from unraveling, I doubt you could shunt them onto another plane without compromising their function (if it was possible Dorukan probably would have done it). That's not a concern for the Dark One's plans, but if you're trying not to unleash the Snarl it's something to worry about.

[Metastachydium]

Considering that the function of the gates is to keep this universe from unraveling, I doubt you could shunt them onto another plane without compromising their function (if it was possible Dorukan probably would have done it). That's not a concern for the Dark One's plans, but if you're trying not to unleash the Snarl it's something to worry about.

I literally just popped out of my hiding (don't look at me like that, today's Murder Flowers for No Good Reason Day vol. 2) to react to this. While I agree with gbaji and Provengrell that "encase it in concrete, encase that in lead, the lead in more concrete and then more lead and then make all of that multidimensional and play active defense far away and from far away from the Gate" is the closest mortals can probably come to foolproof…

Actually, if they can be safely moved, then this is just genius. Build Gates; use the Ritual; put them all in the Graveyard of Worlds, a place nobody other than the gods seems to have ever found on their own since the beginning of time; and PROFIT. And now excuse me as I run away before someone gets "harvest the Flower" kind of ideas.

[Errorname]

Actually, if they can be safely moved, then this is just genius. Build Gates; use the Ritual; put them all in the Graveyard of Worlds, a place nobody other than the gods seems to have ever found on their own since the beginning of time; and PROFIT. And now excuse me as I run away before someone gets "harvest the Flower" kind of ideas.

Yeah, but it's sort of a "everything proof shield" solution.

[Unoriginal]

Right, but why would I as a political leader be comfortable with one of the pins holding reality together being within the borders of my rival. Who knows what that idiot might do with it!

To paraphrase a character in Discworld's "Making Money": "If we don't imagine the army of giant-sized killer Golems firsr, someone else will!"

Considering that the function of the gates is to keep this universe from unraveling, I doubt you could shunt them onto another plane without compromising their function (if it was possible Dorukan probably would have done it). That's not a concern for the Dark One's plans, but if you're trying not to unleash the Snarl it's something to worry about.

Honestly, we don't even know if the Dark One's ritual would work as intended now that the last Gate is doing the job by itself, given that it was designed for a world with five working Gates while being only aware of one.

[brian 333]

The problem is that you keep looping back to this assumption, despite somewhere around a dozen other posters having listed off a number of other possible things that could be done with a gate that have nothing at all to do with destroying the world. And, as has also been previously linked in this thread the author has also said this



Everything else you have argued falls from the starting premise that it's not possible to use the gates to empower onesself without bringing about the destruction of the world. That is the core basis for your assumption that everyone would fight super hard to prevent anyone from gaining control of any gate. But that starting premise is false. Ergo, the conclusions based on that premise are also false.

As a general rule, by far the best way to keep bad people from using something dangerous is for them to not know it exists in the first place. Yes, this leads to exciting stories when some bbeg does discover such things, and works to get their hands on them. Great. But the alternative is... well... worse.

If I were planning as perfect a defense as possible, I'd do something similar to what a few folks have posted about in the past. Bury the gates in some kind of solid magic/ethereal/plannar blocking stone. Build a solid mountain on top of that. Then put some kind of listening devices buried inside the mountain that warn me if someone is digging into it anywhere near where my solid block of gate burying stone is.

Then yeah. Take a page from Soon, and build a secret organization dedicated to monitoring these things, and responding if any threat appears involving them. Otherwise, said organization is doing other things, and appears to be a normal adventuring guild, paladins guild, wizards guild, whatever, but with a "secret purpose" that none but the more senioir members are even aware of (except if some emergency happens involving a gate, of course). Said organization would also secretly hold the information needed to repair or rebuild (or build from scratch) any gates.

Yup. This goes in the opposite direction than what you proposed. I think it would be massively more successful. Could potentially last centuries, or even forever, since it also contains within it methods to deal with new rifts if they form. I suspect that the Scribblers might have come up with something more like this, had they not had their falling out. Imagine a single global organization, founded by the Scribblers, on the surface an adventuring guild, formed by epic level adventurers to help guide new folks into the trade, but hiding a secret purpose the whole time. It's potentially a very self sustaining model, and would be very successful.

And heck. The story practically writes itself too. Not like that background and setting (or similar) hasn't been used for dozens of other fantasy/magical based plots already. And also utterly believable. Which just increases the likelihood of long term success.

Mr.Scruffy is wise and knowledgeable in the ways of magic, and he has had ample time to study the Azure City gate. (Translation: Shojo is not stupid. He probably knows what he is talking about.)

That aside, The Author has said that the only use for the gate is as a one-shot nuke. That may be specifically in relation to The Ritual, but I think, once The Snarl is released, everything else goes out the window.

And then there is the problem of researching all these other possibilities. That can only be done if nobody is looking. If everyone with the power to do so was watching the gates, the minute someone started fooling around with experiments that potentially end the world, it becomes obvious that progress will be interrupted, probably violently, and probably terminally.

As I have repeatedly said, fooling with a gate makes you a target.

And while there are positive points in your outline, there is a fatal flaw: who watches the watcher?

Assume a power-hungry adventurer with great acting skills and inferior ethics becomes a senior member of your organization. Now assume he thinks of one of these 'sieze power' schemes secret organizations are having all the time. Now assume he thinks he can use this guild secret to gain even more power. He has access to the resources and skill sets to investigate, and the security and privacy to do it as long as it takes.

Now we have a guy who can control The Snarl, (theoretically,) and the gods have no reason to not destroy the world. And you might get the power-hungry adventurer the very first time you promote someone.

[gbaji]

Sure. There's always the possiblity that some power hungry person could rise in the ranks of our organization, never revealing his true nature, until being promoted to a point where he learns the "secret of the inner circle", and then proceeds to embark on a mission to subvert whatever security and warning systems are in place (which he just learned about, and everyone at his level and above is more aware of), gains access to a gate and proceeds to use it for his evil purpposes.

But the odds of him being caught at an early point in this process is high. And the odds of him being able to wrangle a way to gain control of a gate without someone else in the organziation figuring it out is low. Possible, but I'll take those odds. And hey. We've got an entire organization of highly powerful people, right there, fully in the know about what's going on, and available to stop this one individual. Again. I'll take those odds. Because he's just one guy, who stumbled opon the information, while we are a whole group of people, who've known about it all along. Huge advantage for the defenders here.

Contrast that to the alternative. Everyone knows about the gates. There are 5 of them, and they will have to be held by "someone". Who controls each one at any given time? Even if we assume that every single gate is being held by some good aligned kingdom, group, organziation, or whatever, the risks within each of those groups of some power hungry person rising to power and gaining control of a gate is the same as it is in my scenario (much higher, arguably)

The core difference is that said power hungry individual knows that the gates exist, and knows where they are before he joins the group in charge of defending it. He may embark on his evil plan to take control of a gate, from day one, ploting the whole thing out from start to finish. You'd see swarms of power hungry people gravitating toweards the whichever groups currently hold the gates, with the intent of gaining access to them.

In my scenario, the member has no reason to know this. He has no reason to lie and conceal his evil nature along the way, because he doesn't know there's a special prize waiting for him, if only he can fool the other members for long enough. Such a person, with such motivations, is very likely to give in to that nature long long before he ever rises high enough to learn about the gates in the first place. And most evil folks would not consider a plan of "I'll secretly join the most prominent good aligned adventureres guild in the world" and.... um... hope that there's some reward for doing this that outweighs the risk of almost certainly being caught. I could see an evil person trying to use some leverage against a member of that guild to try to gain access to the gate. But again... he'd have to know it exists in the first place.

We would almost have to assume someone who did not start out with any sort of evil power hungry plan, but then, long after learning the secret, gave in to the temptation to use the gate (but only in the direst of emergencies, of course!). But... again. That's just as much a risk in your plan. The good ruler of Azure City could just as easily decide that the gate they defend is just the powerful tool he needs to help defend their borders against enemy incursion, and authorize study of it to find a way to safely weaponize it. Best of intentions, right? And worse, since in your scenario, everone in the world knows there's a gate in Azure City, there will be a lot of enemies trying to take control of it, maximizing the odds that said good leader might just have to make that desperate decision in the first place.

Basically, every single risk to my plan, also exists in yours. But mine significantly reduces the number of occurances of this, and thus the likelihood over time that it will actually happen. And there are a whole host of other risks that simply don't exist (or are massively reduced) in mine.

[ShadowSandbag]

That aside, The Author has said that the only use for the gate is as a one-shot nuke.

Where was this said? I don't remember this and it seems fairly important.

[Kish]

I believe brian 333 is dubiously paraphrasing this.

[Unoriginal]

I believe brian 333 is dubiously paraphrasing this.

The Snarl is like a nuclear bomb. You can get a lot of leverage out of owning a nuclear bomb, because no one wants it dropped on them. But if everyone knows you only own one and then you use it on someone...then everyone left knows you don't have it anymore. Sucks for your one target, but it won't end well for you, either.

That's why the Dark One's actual plan is to use the threat of moving the Gate to extract concessions from the other gods and deter preemptive strikes against his followers. Those concessions will be significantly less than, "All of you be my slaves forever," because at that point, the calculus would change and some of the gods might risk the bomb getting dropped on one of them to end the Dark One's threat to their friends and family.

I think it's safe to say that The Giant disagrees with any analysis that declares the Gates are useless politically.

[Tubercular Ox]

The Snarl is like a nuclear bomb.

You mean the weapon of mass destruction that everyone knows exists, anyone who wants to can learn how they work, anyone dedicated can get instructions on how to make, and the major limitation on making more is the lockdown on the ingredients?

The things I can just look up where to find?

And all of those facilities have hugely visible fences with signs telling you no one will find your corpse if you cross the line?

Of course nukes were much better kept secrets 60 years ago, but it sounds like someone made a backup plan.

[Peelee]

You mean the weapon of mass destruction that everyone knows exists, anyone who wants to can learn how they work, anyone dedicated can get instructions on how to make, and the major limitation on making more is the lockdown on the ingredients?

The things I can just look up where to find?

And all of those facilities have hugely visible fences with signs telling you no one will find your corpse if you cross the line?

Of course nukes were much better kept secrets 60 years ago, but it sounds like someone made a backup plan.

If I'm misreading this, please correct me, but are you actually arguing with the author here?

[Tubercular Ox]

If I'm misreading this, please correct me, but are you actually arguing with the author here?

It was not my intent to argue with the author. I saw Rich's quote as a proxy for Unoriginal's argument, but I did not make that clear in my quoting and TBH I'm not sure how to bring that out, so I screwed up and I'm sorry.

To reiterate: Yes, please, let's compare the gates to nuclear weapons, because nuclear weapons have a robust defense that depends on surprisingly little secrecy once you get into it. That secrecy was not disdained like brian 333 is recommending, but the backup plan was there from the beginning.

[Errorname]

You mean the weapon of mass destruction that everyone knows exists, anyone who wants to can learn how they work, anyone dedicated can get instructions on how to make, and the major limitation on making more is the lockdown on the ingredients?

It's not a perfect comparison, obviously, but there are still useful parallels

[brian 333]

My point was that it was a single-use attack which, having made the threat to use, invites pre-emptive attack by everyone who does not want it used.

If one has the power to hold the gate against literally everyone else, he does not need the gate to establish his power, and if there is even a single, more powerful entity out there, it is pointless to try to hold it.

One such threat is the attempt to investigate multi-use capabilities which are not currently apparent.

And while Ox rightly points out that the current lockdown on available materials is what slows the proliferation of nukes in our world, he is also pointing out that in our crazy world, almost every nation has joined together in opposition to nuclear proliferation. Why would a fantasy world be less wise than ours?

[Errorname]

And while Ox rightly points out that the current lockdown on available materials is what slows the proliferation of nukes in our world, he is also pointing out that in our crazy world, almost every nation has joined together in opposition to nuclear proliferation. Why would a fantasy world be less wise than ours?

You would note though that in our crazy world, all the major superpowers have nukes. We did not all band together and say "nobody can have access to these", the most powerful states in the world have said "nobody else can have these".

[Unoriginal]

The point of the Giant's comparison is that both the nukes and the Dark One's plan for the Snarl is that they're both *threats*, aka political tools, rather than actual military tactical tools.

Nobody wants to be the first to be hit, but everyone knows that once someone gets hit it's the end of the world as everyone else unleash their power too.

So basically the use is to go to the negociation table with a big "don't make me mad or we're all gonna suffer" button, aka a "you must treat me like I matter" method.

One of the Dark One's problemd is that Redcloak is actually the kind of spite-filled hubristic jerk who think it's a military tactical tool. As he made clear to Minrha and Durkon, he think only his side has the spine to do the "unleash power" part and so that he'll be able to bully them while they bend over backward to preserve the world.