A Perfect Defense!

[JNAProductions]

I mean, if we're allowed to just make stuff up, then I propose that two new pantheons get made and their quiddities be used to make a five-color prison, even more real than the Snarl itself, and so able to withstand it for eternity.

[Errorname]

Political power players are primarily self preservationists. When they become megalomaniacal power mongers, the other power players band together against them or join them in the hopes of surviving. But none of them can survive The Snarl, and attempting to use The Snarl against the gods just encourages the gods to pull the slip-knot before they can succeed.

Nobody seemed willing to take on Xykon after Azure City fell. Maybe the threat of the Snarl would raise the stakes enough to force people to act, but it's also very easy to imagine people hesitating out of fear of the Snarl.

I'm also not sure there's a deep well of epic level characters who aren't already in play, there's a pretty strong implication that most of the really high level characters are already involved in the Snarl conflict. Tarquin is wrong when he says Elan can just go grab replacements for Roy and Durkon at any tavern, this is not a setting with dozens of unaligned epic level characters just running about.

But keeping the gates secret has not made them safer. Even if my defense is completely impossible, it still would be safer for the world if knowledge of rift-patching and the consequences of fooling with them otherwise was common.

That assumes the gods are willing to let knowledge of the rifts be common, which I do not think they are. The Snarl terrifies the gods more than anything, and mortals knowing about it's existence and the deeper metaphysics of the universe could pose a serious threat to them. If I was on the Scribblers, I would be very paranoid about the gods deciding that keeping Snarl-lore secret from their creations was worth destroying the world over.

[pearl jam]

It wouldn't surprise me if Xykon is the first person to reach epic levels post Scribblers, yeah.

[Kardwill]

Since they never tried, there is no evidence one way or the other about what they might otherwise have done. It may be easier in the same way that building tiny working gas turbine engines is easier than building full scale gas turbine engines, or more difficult the way tiny V8 diesel piston engines are much harder to build than full scale V8 diesel piston engines.

The Scribblers were the most knowledgeable group about the rifts, they spent 10 years building the best Gate system they could come up with and several more decades defending and reinforcing them, and yet all they could do was put up a makeshift barricade that blows up every time someone looks at them funny, breaking the seal and ripping the rift wide open in the process. I don't think "build a gate, just better" would be that easy. You could try to look at the situation from another angle with the benefit of seeing how the original gates failed, sure, but it's likely any "easy to explore/obvious" idea has already been thought up and discarded bay the Scribblers for some reason or another.

Yes, exactly. We do not know if it can be done, or even if it is wise to make the attempt. What happens when a full scale fusion power reactor fails catastrophically? I don't know.

I think the point of the fusion analogy is that we've actually been trying to do it for decades with big international research projects and actual experimental reactors, and we're still nowhere near getting a working fusion energy plant (or even knowing if such an energy plant is actually practical with our available ressources and technology)
It's not as simple as saying "Well, fission stinks and its fuel is not infinite. Let's just do fusion instead, it was obvious in retrospect", even if we really, REALLY wanted to do it (we do). We do fission because, while fusion is the natural energy source for big-ass stars using 99,9% of their system's mass to contain and pressure their "reactor", fission is actually simpler to do for us planetbound apes.
A new idea is not enough : It can be impossible. it can be impractical. It can be too expensive. it can necessitate a long, grueling process to make it something more than "why don't we just...". And it can be an idea somebody else already checked and discarded.



That said, if your main line of defense is making the gates public... That's another thing. It's something that can be applied on top of the Scribbler's "build a fortress on top of the gate, and an organisation to man that fortress" defense as well as your own. the main problem I see with it is that the gods are really unconfortable about lowly mortals (and, perhaps more importantly, devious Outsiders) knowing their weakness. "Too many mortals know the secret already, let's nuke the planet" has been one of the points made during the godsmoot (sure, it was a paranoid god of secrets, but still.
They erased the Eastern Gods from History, hid the "lost worlds graveyard" behind the barn, rebooted the memory of every Outsider. I don't think they would be happy if a Western Warlord was publickly sitting on a gate and using it as a doomsday weapon to ensure his rule is unchallenged, even if said Warlord has no intention of actually ripping the rift open.

On the other hand, that could spark the creation of international cooperation to protect the gates. Bring more adventurers and armies in the defense of the Gates. Make taking on a gate a more daunting process. But I'm not optimistic. The Southern Gate was defended by an entire militaristic nation, and it still fell when a band of malcontent goblinoids led by a lunatic lich decided it was time to kick over the board.
Outsiders would do even worse. The IFCC is willing to risk their minds, their actual immortality, and possibly Creation itself, to play with the Snarl. What would happen if the entire population of the Lower Planes knew of such "opportunity"? That sounds like a good way to spark up a "war in heaven" scenario.
There will always be bad guys who think they can game the system and take that risk. Xykon wouldn't be initimidated by the threat of a divine reset. His mindset has always been "Go big, and to hell with consequences"

That's the main problem, isn't it? All gates, all defenses, all organisations and defenders are temporary. At one point, something is bound to happen that will make the gods panic and hit the reset button. All the scribblers' efforts and sacrifice bought the world 6 decades, and now it's on the brink of destruction again. You just need one fail point, one lucky villain, one freak accident or ill-advised decision for the world to make one more step toward the edge. It literally happened billons of times. The situation is simply not sustenable long term.

[Liquor Box]

I disagree. Defenses against anything only work so long as there is an active offense supporting it. This is why the defenses have failed four out of five times so far.

I agree with you that some active offense, something that can actually hurt the attackers is needed.

But all of them were designed with an active offense element. Lyrian's had herself and her nature allies. Dorukan had himself and any monsters and traps in his dungeon. Soon had the Azure army and his ghost paladins. Girard (although they'd gone by the time we saw it) had his family and whatever traps there were. Serini had her monsters and (although they were dead by the time we arrived) and her plan to summon her allies.

But keeping the gates secret has not made them safer. Even if my defense is completely impossible, it still would be safer for the world if knowledge of rift-patching and the consequences of fooling with them otherwise was common.

I don't agree about this.

The secrecy only only failed to protect the gates from Xykon because the secrets themselves had a weakness (Serini and her decision to diarise the locations). That doesn't mean secrecy was a bad idea, only that it was not done well enough.

You speculate that if the gates were public knowledge various do-gooders would arrive to interfere with the evil-doers. But that is only speculation. Shojo knew about the gates and had the whole resources of a city to hand, but was not able to summon any extra defenders (beyond the army he already had) beyond the Order. The Order have also known for some time, and Minrah is the only extra person they were able to recruit, despite visiting centres of power like the dwarven lands, the place where the cleric vote was, and several cities. One higher level character, Julio, chose not to go with them. So the story suggests that heroes more powerful than the Order would not be queuing up to involve themselves.

One could equally speculate that if the location of the gates was widely known, other baddies, beyond Xykon might have tried to use them nefariously.

[Provengreil]

The power players who make a play for control of the gate only gain defeat, no matter how it plays out. Why would the ones who want to survive not band together to stop that?

Counterpoint: The Dark One. One drop of his quiddity could help the gods lock down the snarl long enough for him to survive a world wipe and make a proper prison in the next one, and yet that plan is being heavily resisted.

But keeping the gates secret has not made them safer. Even if my defense is completely impossible, it still would be safer for the world if knowledge of rift-patching and the consequences of fooling with them otherwise was common.

Facts not in evidence, and actually contradicted by evidence. One of the rifts was revealed to a larger audience, specifically the Vector legion, and was seized by two different evil empires for study and exploitation within a day.

You'd be surprised at how effective I am at wargames. Still, you only have my word for that.

Actually, we have your previous threads that you've called wargaming for evidence. I remain impressed only by your capacity to assume success despite suggesting actions of dubious characterization or plausibility.

[Tubercular Ox]

I mean, if we're allowed to just make stuff up, then I propose that two new pantheons get made and their quiddities be used to make a five-color prison, even more real than the Snarl itself, and so able to withstand it for eternity.

Is it impossible to allow something made up unless we allow everything made up?

But all of them were designed with an active offense element. Lyrian's had herself and her nature allies. Dorukan had himself and any monsters and traps in his dungeon. Soon had the Azure army and his ghost paladins. Girard (although they'd gone by the time we saw it) had his family and whatever traps there were. Serini had her monsters and (although they were dead by the time we arrived) and her plan to summon her allies.

I don't have brian's experience with war games but I'm pretty sure only Soon's crusade counts as an active offense. Everything you mention here are troops manning a static defense, except the traps, which are classic static defenses.

[Elanfanforlife]

Is it impossible to allow something made up unless we allow everything made up?

I mean, those two are about on the same level. If we allow the magic gate factory that works nothing like the gates in the text, then we can allow two new pantheons ascending. With that said, I'd like to propose my perfect defense of the Gate that instantly kills the Snarl. It's never stated that this is doable in the text, of course, but I'm sure the Order of the Scribble just didn't research hard enough.

[Provengreil]

I don't have brian's experience with war games but I'm pretty sure only Soon's crusade counts as an active offense. Everything you mention here are troops manning a static defense, except the traps, which are classic static defenses.

There's a lot of space between active defense and a series of crusades. An active defense can remain alert but defensive, and send forces to destroy/deter specific threats as they are detected, going beyond their normal defensive areas if they deem it necessary. This is different from destroying anything that might one day become a threat: I'd go as far as to say those crusades were largely or entirely unrelated to the defense of the gates.

[Tubercular Ox]

There's a lot of space between active defense and a series of crusades.

Sure, okay. But brian 333 didn't say that:

Defenses against anything only work so long as there is an active offense supporting it.

And I've got to support this sentence. Turtling is an invitation to pick your defenses apart step by step. It only works when your enemy giving up and going home is a reasonable option, and everything in this thread suggests we're not accepting that as a reasonable option for people trying to take over the gates.

I mean, those two are about on the same level. If we allow the magic gate factory that works nothing like the gates in the text, then we can allow two new pantheons ascending. With that said, I'd like to propose my perfect defense of the Gate that instantly kills the Snarl. It's never stated that this is doable in the text, of course, but I'm sure the Order of the Scribble just didn't research hard enough.

Honestly, I feel like, "just kill the Snarl," is still a different level of making stuff up from, "There are two new pantheons."

Comparable to the latter would be, "I don't need a gate because in my world the Snarl disappears."

Comparable to the former would be, "My ideal gate defense is working to ascend a new guy with no sponsorship from any existing pantheon."

Which I'm going to suggest. Soon joins the Athar. Plot twist!

[gbaji]

Political power players are primarily self preservationists. When they become megalomaniacal power mongers, the other power players band together against them or join them in the hopes of surviving. But none of them can survive The Snarl, and attempting to use The Snarl against the gods just encourages the gods to pull the slip-knot before they can succeed.

It is anti-self preservation to tolerate any fooling around with the rifts. If you fail you die. If you unleash The Snarl, everyone dies. Even if you succeed and harness The Snarl, the gods pull the cord and everyone dies anyway. Those are the only three options.

You have probably never played the red/green game. What you are describing is how many people think people will act. That is *not* how people actually behave though. There is a very simple and common schoolroom exercise that illustrates this fact.

It does not matter to what degree political players may be acting in the pursuit of self preservation. They will act in ways that are counter to their own self preservation if they percieve a risk of others taking such action, or that their own lack of action will allow someone else to "pull ahead" of them.

The power players who make a play for control of the gate only gain defeat, no matter how it plays out. Why would the ones who want to survive not band together to stop that?

Yes. But they will do it anyway, out of fear that someone else might succeed. I don't think you are fully grasping the massively greater motivation for people to "try to gain control of a gate" versus "work to prevent someone from doing that". People will always work much much harder for personal gain than they will merely to maintain a status quo.

But keeping the gates secret has not made them safer. Even if my defense is completely impossible, it still would be safer for the world if knowledge of rift-patching and the consequences of fooling with them otherwise was common.

We have no way of knowing how many hundreds or even thousands of evil groups did *not* try to take control of the gates over the last 50 years purely because they did not know they existed. I suspect they were made vastly safer by keeping them secret. Certainly, everything else remaining the same, they were safer by being hidden.

If your reasoning worked, then we would see methods like this used in real life to prevent any of a number of highly dangerous things from being used by crazy evil people. Not surprisingly, the methods actually used look a lot more like the ones the Scribbler's used, and not at all like what you are proposing.

[Tubercular Ox]

If your reasoning worked, then we would see methods like this used in real life to prevent any of a number of highly dangerous things from being used by crazy evil people. Not surprisingly, the methods actually used look a lot more like the ones the Scribbler's used, and not at all like what you are proposing.

There is one highly visible exception to this that I cannot post because of the rules. Free hint: brian 333 is very proud of his wargaming hobby.

Do you really need this one argument so badly? Can't you rest your case on other arguments? It's a highly charged position.

EDIT: Just thought of a second highly visible exception, and now there is one on each side of the aisle. I'm not sure if a thread nuke counts as politically neutral but there you go.

[Errorname]

I can imagine a setting in which the 'full disclosure' part of the defense would make sense, the threat of mutually assured destruction binding all the power players of a setting into a mutual pact. That said, I think the Scribblers would need to do more than simply make the existence of the gates public knowledge, simply trusting that politics will shake out in the way you want is not the sort of thing you should settle for if you're an epic level character. I also don't fully buy that this is would be any more stable or long-term viable than the secrecy plan, it would be very tempting for a bad actor in position to control a gate to threaten the world with armageddon)

Taken together with the "Stickworld doesn't seem to have that many high level characters who are not already involved" and "It really seems like the Gods do not want people to know about the Snarl" and I really don't think the problem was keeping the Snarl secret, but rather the Scribbler's inability to rally the banners and work together to respond to threats. If after Xykon attacked Lirian the second time, she'd been able to call for backup from the other gates, that probably ends the story right then and there.

[Liquor Box]

I don't have brian's experience with war games but I'm pretty sure only Soon's crusade counts as an active offense. Everything you mention here are troops manning a static defense, except the traps, which are classic static defenses.

And I've got to support this sentence. Turtling is an invitation to pick your defenses apart step by step. It only works when your enemy giving up and going home is a reasonable option, and everything in this thread suggests we're not accepting that as a reasonable option for people trying to take over the gates.

Whatever you call it, the thing that stops an attacker picking apart a defence step by step is something that threatens the enemy. All the gates had that, all the gates had elements that could threaten an attacker. None are turtling, because all might have seen the attacker dead (or otherwise unable to continue). The only question is whether the threat to the attacker is strong enough to overcome that attacker.

[Unoriginal]

Let's imagine a world where everyone is made aware of the Gates and agree they must be protected.

How long do you think it'll take for wars to be fought on how to protect the Gates properly and who will be doing it?


You're basically taking control freaks like Tarquin, self-important jerks like Kubota, well-intentioned but callous fools like Hurak, honorable-to-a-fault idealists like Hinjo, and strangled-by-protocol bureaucrats like the Dwarven Clans' leaders... and asking them to shoulder the responsibility of the world together.

[Tubercular Ox]

Let's imagine a world where everyone is made aware of the Gates and agree they must be protected.

How long do you think it'll take for wars to be fought on how to protect the Gates properly and who will be doing it?


You're basically taking control freaks like Tarquin, self-important jerks like Kubota, well-intentioned but callous fools like Hurak, honorable-to-a-fault idealists like Hinjo, and strangled-by-protocol bureaucrats like the Dwarven Clans' leaders... and asking them to shoulder the responsibility of the world together.

Sure, let's turn this into a conversation over whether it's right to put you and your opinions ahead of everyone else's when the fate of the world is on the line. Because obviously the first assumption of this exercise is that we and our chosen successors are incorruptible, and a self-selecting elite reserving ultimate power for themselves will definitely work out this time.

[brian 333]

Let's imagine a world where everyone is made aware of the Gates and agree they must be protected.

How long do you think it'll take for wars to be fought on how to protect the Gates properly and who will be doing it?


You're basically taking control freaks like Tarquin, self-important jerks like Kubota, well-intentioned but callous fools like Hurak, honorable-to-a-fault idealists like Hinjo, and strangled-by-protocol bureaucrats like the Dwarven Clans' leaders... and asking them to shoulder the responsibility of the world together.

Yes, I expect gate wars will be fought. The gods may even wager over them because there is nothing like a war to bump up the exp.

But once you control a gate, what do you do with it? The only thing it can do is cause the gods to destroy the world and everything in it, including the guy who pulled the plug on their food factory.

A: Do you really think either a Shojo or a Tarquin is going to leave a guy who credibly threatens global destruction in charge?

B: Do you really think anyone who is competent enough to seize a gate and hold it is also capable of deceiving himself into believing he can gain anything by having it that he cannot gain without it?

C: Do you really think anyone who has the ability to hold a gate will not realize it will only result in painting a huge target on his back?

Redcloak is the kind of nut you are describing. If, as another poster mentioned, anyone with power had been aware and able to intervene when Lirian's gate fell, Redcloak would now be dead, (and Roy's story would not involve the gates at all.)

In fact, if Xykon was aware of what Durkon knows, he would not be involved. Even if he thinks it would be funny to blow up the world and escape to his Astral Fortress, he is not stupid enough to think that the gods who live in the astral plane will let bygones be bygones and let him survive.

The only reason the world is in danger now is because Xykon doesn't know The Secret. If he had known, when Redcloak lied about his intent for The Gate Xykon would have known The Plan would not work. He might have even killed Redcloak.

But even better: TDO would never have come up with The Plan because he would have known that the gods would destroy the world faster than he could gain control of the gate.

The secret is what allows any chance at all for The Plan to succeed. Without it, there is no plan.

[Tubercular Ox]

But once you control a gate, what do you do with it?

I'm going to grade this, and I'm sorry for being opinionated.

The only thing it can do is cause the gods to destroy the world and everything in it, including the guy who pulled the plug on their food factory.

Yeehaw, this one. More people deserve to know it's not just the Snarl threatening the world. (Hey, maybe this is where we get started ascending a fourth quiddity that isn't a basket case.)

A: Do you really think either a Shojo or a Tarquin is going to leave a guy who credibly threatens global destruction in charge?

Yes. If you can't put the mutually in your assured destruction, then traditionally capitulation is the strategy.

B: Do you really think anyone who is competent enough to seize a gate and hold it is also capable of deceiving himself into believing he can gain anything by having it that he cannot gain without it?

Yes. See that other MAD above.

C: Do you really think anyone who has the ability to hold a gate will not realize it will only result in painting a huge target on his back?

No, but they're going to do this risk/reward thing that people are traditionally bad at.

Redcloak is the kind of nut you are describing. If, as another poster mentioned, anyone with power had been aware and able to intervene when Lirian's gate fell, Redcloak would now be dead, (and Roy's story would not involve the gates at all.)

Yeehaw.

In fact, if Xykon was aware of what Durkon knows, he would not be involved. Even if he thinks it would be funny to blow up the world and escape to his Astral Fortress, he is not stupid enough to think that the gods who live in the astral plane will let bygones be bygones and let him survive.

I'm with you on the first sentence. Second one I'm shaky on. There are evil and vindictive gods who would do something about it, and that's probably enough.

But even better: TDO would never have come up with The Plan because he would have known that the gods would destroy the world faster than he could gain control of the gate.

And now a yeehaw for the gods themselves.

The secret is what allows any chance at all for The Plan to succeed. Without it, there is no plan.

I'm going to assume you meant the secret is what allows any chance at all for The Plan to exist.

[Errorname]

Redcloak is the kind of nut you are describing. If, as another poster mentioned, anyone with power had been aware and able to intervene when Lirian's gate fell, Redcloak would now be dead, (and Roy's story would not involve the gates at all.)

Crucially though, we can get this outcome without needing to let men like Tarquin or Kubota in on the secret of the gates, because what's actually required is organization among the Scribblers.

The only reason the world is in danger now is because Xykon doesn't know The Secret. If he had known, when Redcloak lied about his intent for The Gate Xykon would have known The Plan would not work. He might have even killed Redcloak.

See, I wonder about this. Xykon clearly already suspects that Redcloak is hiding the truth from him. I think it's (probably) true that he wouldn't have gotten involved if he knew the secret from the start, but I can't help but think that Xykon's already planning with the assumption that he can't trust Redcloak's plan to harness the Snarl.

[gbaji]

But once you control a gate, what do you do with it? The only thing it can do is cause the gods to destroy the world and everything in it, including the guy who pulled the plug on their food factory.

Except that's not true. It's so demonstrably not true that we have an entire comic strip based on the fact that two of the most powerful spell casters in the world both believe they can use the gate for other purposes. If both Redcloak and Xykon believe that there is value to holding a gate, why on earth assume that everyone else in the world will think there isn't? And they'll think this so hard that they will avoid doing any testing or experiementing or whatever (not fight really hard to be the one in control of a gate so that they can do this in the first place?).

A: Do you really think either a Shojo or a Tarquin is going to leave a guy who credibly threatens global destruction in charge?

No. But as this strip has shown us, they may not have much say in the matter. Tarquin, at least, is already on a "conquer and control as much as I can" agenda anyway, so.... if he could control a gate, he would. And if he can't, it's due to other factors than the fact that he knows said gate exists and that someone else controls it. And it's ineteresing to note that Shojo was in charge of an organization that systematically wiped out all references to the gates, which somewhat flies in the face of your core assumption here.

B: Do you really think anyone who is competent enough to seize a gate and hold it is also capable of deceiving himself into believing he can gain anything by having it that he cannot gain without it?

Um... Yes? Was that supposed to be a trick question? Again. The entire plot of this strip assumes that there are things powerful people can do with gates, and that they will attempt to do so. Redcloak clearliy believes he can do more with a gate under his control than he can do without. Ditto for Xykon.

Why assume other powerful people will not make the same assumptions that both of the primary antagonists of the story have (well, and presumably the Fiends as well)?

C: Do you really think anyone who has the ability to hold a gate will not realize it will only result in painting a huge target on his back?

I would not say that's the "only result". Um... And would you assume that Redcloak and Xykon don't both already have a huge target on their backs (and would regardless of their actions with regards to the gates)?

See... This is the problem with your asssumptions. Yes. Nice, kind, peaceful leaders would not want the gates to be used. But they are also the ones who would therefore have the least reason to actively expend resources to obtain and control one. They have to think about things like how to feed their people, trade agreements, how to direct construction resources, etc. Holding and securing a gate is an extra cost that gains them nothing at all. So the problem is that anyone who does spend those resources taking and holding a gate, is going to also spend more resources studing and experimenting with it, just to make that cost worthwhile.

Even the most well intentioned leader, having done this, will come under enormous pressure to use that gate for something. And, guess what kind of people will likely rise to the position of studying and experimenting with said gate? Or will be briibed to grant other folks access, or any of a number of other scenarios. We actually already have a model for this in Azure City. The gate was secure for a very long time precisely because no one knew it was there, and only the Sapphire Guard was entrusted wit its care and protection. No one even knew that's what they were for, so no one was actively trying to corrupt or subvert them either (and being an order of mostly paladins helped). We literally see a case here where the very first pair of powerful people who know that there's a gate there, are able to take down the entire city in the couse of trying to get to it.

Multiply that by a thousand, and that's what would happen if the rifts and seals and gates were public knowledge. Every wanna be bad guy would be coming for them. Every evil organziation. Every powery hungry politician. The last thing anyone who isn't trying to do something nefarious with a gate would want is to have control of a gate, since that would result in constant attacks that would have to be deal with. The "good guys' would not want anything to do with the gates. Only the bad guys woiuld. Because you've made the cost of "sittting here doing nothing with the gate except defend it" very very very high, and the total accumulated number of people who will want to try to do something with the gates also very very high.

In fact, if Xykon was aware of what Durkon knows, he would not be involved. Even if he thinks it would be funny to blow up the world and escape to his Astral Fortress, he is not stupid enough to think that the gods who live in the astral plane will let bygones be bygones and let him survive.

Except the problem is that what Durkon knows is that Redcloak is planning on double crossing Xykon. But let's recall that Xykon actually thinks the gate is exactly what it is (a tear in the world, with great power contained within). Your plan would tell Xykon exactly what Redcloak told Xykon to get him to help him with the ritual. Yes, the ritual doesn't actually do what Xykon thinks it does, but that does not change the motivation Xykon has. And every other bbeg would have the same motivation, for the same reason.

Redcloak's lie to Xykon only works if someone as high level as Xykon believes that what Redcloak promised (we can control the power of the snarl) is possible. Which means that other high level arcane casters would believe it is possible as well.

The only reason the world is in danger now is because Xykon doesn't know The Secret. If he had known, when Redcloak lied about his intent for The Gate Xykon would have known The Plan would not work. He might have even killed Redcloak.

Again. He doesn't know Redcloaks secret. But that's not the secret you are arguing should be made public knowledge. That secret is what lead Xykon to believe he could and should spend all of this time and effort to take control of a gate in the first place. Any other evil, powerful, and/or just ambitious person would likely arrive at the same conclusion.

But even better: TDO would never have come up with The Plan because he would have known that the gods would destroy the world faster than he could gain control of the gate.

Why would you assume this? Your plan literally assumes that every gate will be under "someone's" control at all times. But you assume that only good people, with no intention to use the gates for any purpose would be the ones holding the area around the gate and controlling access to the gate. Good gods only make up 1/3rd of the whole set of gods. Its seems silly to assume that only good people would be allowed to control access to a gate without the whole of the gods deciding to pre-emptively destroy the world.

There will be folks controlling the gates. Some of them will almost certainly be evil (if anything the gods would make this happen as some kind of balance requirement). All TDO has to do is get the bearer of the crimson mantle to convince one single high level arcane caster to join him in casting the ritual, just once, on any one of these gates, and TDO has control.

The secret is what allows any chance at all for The Plan to succeed. Without it, there is no plan.

I think you've conflated two very different secrets there.

[Anymage]

I just want to chime in that both Redcloak and Serini were skeptical when first informed that the gods were standing by ready end the world if the situation got too bad. Similarly you had Azure City nobles who didn't believe just how bad the attack on their city was going to be. Just because you tell people that the gods will destroy the world if they monkey with something doesn't mean they'll necessarily believe you. Especially because it's hard to clearly demonstrate that the gods will end the world without them doing just that, which would render all gate defenses irrelevant.

[Somniloquist]

Basically, you put up a "Push button to get everyone bitten by venomous snakes" sign, you WILL get people assuming the snakes will only bite everyone else.

Also, I notice your plan has people fighting wars over the gates built right into it. People fighting over the gates is exactly what caused every gate so far to be destroyed.

[brian 333]

Except that's not true. It's so demonstrably not true that we have an entire comic strip based on the fact that two of the most powerful spell casters in the world both believe they can use the gate for other purposes. If both Redcloak and Xykon believe that there is value to holding a gate, why on earth assume that everyone else in the world will think there isn't? And they'll think this so hard that they will avoid doing any testing or experiementing or whatever (not fight really hard to be the one in control of a gate so that they can do this in the first place?).

They believe they can use the gate for other purposes only because they are unaware that the gods can unmake the world and everything in it with fifteen minutes warning, and that they have already done so many, many times. They believe that gaining control of the gate will allow them to blackmail the gods, but if they knew The Secret they would know that before they can gain control of the gate the gods will have pulled the rug, (and the world,) from under their feet.

And they only believe this because the gods and the Scribble have kept this a secret.

No. But as this strip has shown us, they may not have much say in the matter. Tarquin, at least, is already on a "conquer and control as much as I can" agenda anyway, so.... if he could control a gate, he would. And if he can't, it's due to other factors than the fact that he knows said gate exists and that someone else controls it. And it's ineteresing to note that Shojo was in charge of an organization that systematically wiped out all references to the gates, which somewhat flies in the face of your core assumption here.

Because Soon believed in keeping the secret and taught his successors to do so as well does not mean he was right. Soon was wrong about the unbreakability of the honor of a paladin as well.

Um... Yes? Was that supposed to be a trick question? Again. The entire plot of this strip assumes that there are things powerful people can do with gates, and that they will attempt to do so. Redcloak clearliy believes he can do more with a gate under his control than he can do without. Ditto for Xykon.

Why assume other powerful people will not make the same assumptions that both of the primary antagonists of the story have (well, and presumably the Fiends as well)?

They assume they can pull a fast one while nobody is looking. This is only possible because nobody is looking. If knowledge of the rifts was available to all, everybody with power and a vested interest in a future would be looking!

I would not say that's the "only result". Um... And would you assume that Redcloak and Xykon don't both already have a huge target on their backs (and would regardless of their actions with regards to the gates)?

They do not. The only people who are not at the North Pole who even know about them are either building a new home, (in Gobbotopia or Azure island,) or in school in Cliffport. If knowledge of the rifts was common, everyone would have heard about the attack on Lirian's gate. There are certainly three or four epic characters somewhere who are willing and able to come out of retirement to save the world from TE. If only they knew they should.

See... This is the problem with your asssumptions. Yes. Nice, kind, peaceful leaders would not want the gates to be used. But they are also the ones who would therefore have the least reason to actively expend resources to obtain and control one. They have to think about things like how to feed their people, trade agreements, how to direct construction resources, etc. Holding and securing a gate is an extra cost that gains them nothing at all. So the problem is that anyone who does spend those resources taking and holding a gate, is going to also spend more resources studing and experimenting with it, just to make that cost worthwhile.

Violent, Evil people will want to preserve the gates too. Knowing that literally all one can do with a gate is destabilize existence, one is faced with meekly accepting death, or raining destruction and carnage on those who seek to wreck the world. Few Evil folks will choose A if they have a choice. The world is where they get to do their best Eviling.

Even the most well intentioned leader, having done this, will come under enormous pressure to use that gate for something. And, guess what kind of people will likely rise to the position of studying and experimenting with said gate? Or will be briibed to grant other folks access, or any of a number of other scenarios. We actually already have a model for this in Azure City. The gate was secure for a very long time precisely because no one knew it was there, and only the Sapphire Guard was entrusted wit its care and protection. No one even knew that's what they were for, so no one was actively trying to corrupt or subvert them either (and being an order of mostly paladins helped). We literally see a case here where the very first pair of powerful people who know that there's a gate there, are able to take down the entire city in the couse of trying to get to it.

Use the gate for what? We already know that Redcloak's (and TDO's) Plan is a bust. The Gods will unravel the world before their Ritual can be completed.

The only thing anyone can do with a gate is to make powerful beings angry and afraid enough to gang up an gank them.

The Secret protects TE more than it protects the world.

Multiply that by a thousand, and that's what would happen if the rifts and seals and gates were public knowledge. Every wanna be bad guy would be coming for them. Every evil organziation. Every powery hungry politician. The last thing anyone who isn't trying to do something nefarious with a gate would want is to have control of a gate, since that would result in constant attacks that would have to be deal with. The "good guys' would not want anything to do with the gates. Only the bad guys woiuld. Because you've made the cost of "sittting here doing nothing with the gate except defend it" very very very high, and the total accumulated number of people who will want to try to do something with the gates also very very high.

The idea that one can 'do something' with the gates is based on knowing about the rifts and the Snarl, but not knowing that the greater danger is what the gods will do if threatened. Otherwise, it is as useful as a one-wheeled garbage truck.

Except the problem is that what Durkon knows is that Redcloak is planning on double crossing Xykon. But let's recall that Xykon actually thinks the gate is exactly what it is (a tear in the world, with great power contained within). Your plan would tell Xykon exactly what Redcloak told Xykon to get him to help him with the ritual. Yes, the ritual doesn't actually do what Xykon thinks it does, but that does not change the motivation Xykon has. And every other bbeg would have the same motivation, for the same reason.

Redcloak's lie to Xykon only works if someone as high level as Xykon believes that what Redcloak promised (we can control the power of the snarl) is possible. Which means that other high level arcane casters would believe it is possible as well.

The double-cross? When did Thor tell him about that?

The Secret is that the rifts are sealed to keep a world-eating, god-destroying entity caged, and that the gods have many, many, many times destroyed the world to salvage as much as they can before it gets loose again.

Xykon believes he can control the power of the Snarl because he is ignorant of the facts. All he can really do is hurry the destruction of the world and ensure his own demise.

Again. He doesn't know Redcloaks secret. But that's not the secret you are arguing should be made public knowledge. That secret is what lead Xykon to believe he could and should spend all of this time and effort to take control of a gate in the first place. Any other evil, powerful, and/or just ambitious person would likely arrive at the same conclusion.

Take control of a gate for what? See, he currently mistakenly believes he can use the Snarl like a big weapon: aim it, fire it, reload, repeat.

He is wrong. Redcloak knows he is wrong. Redcloak believes he can use the Snarl to gain concessions from the gods. He too is wrong. Durkon knows he is wrong. Durkon believes if anyone comes close to gaining control of the Snarl, the gods will destroy the world. He is right because Thor showed him the graveyard of worlds.

If what Durkon knows was common knowledge, only the suicidal would want to take control of a gate. And all they could accomplish by doing so is to destroy one gate before everyone else granted their wish and rebuilt the gate they destroyed.

Why would you assume this? Your plan literally assumes that every gate will be under "someone's" control at all times. But you assume that only good people, with no intention to use the gates for any purpose would be the ones holding the area around the gate and controlling access to the gate. Good gods only make up 1/3rd of the whole set of gods. Its seems silly to assume that only good people would be allowed to control access to a gate without the whole of the gods deciding to pre-emptively destroy the world.

There will be folks controlling the gates. Some of them will almost certainly be evil (if anything the gods would make this happen as some kind of balance requirement). All TDO has to do is get the bearer of the crimson mantle to convince one single high level arcane caster to join him in casting the ritual, just once, on any one of these gates, and TDO has control.

My plan is based on the knowledge that the only result of controlling a gate is to cause everyone else in the world to assess the degree of threat that person represents, and to take action to eliminate that threat

I think you've conflated two very different secrets there.

No. I don't care about Redcloak lying to Xykon. That will sort itself out in time. The only secrets I'm talking about are the ones involving what the rifts are, what is on the other side of them, and how many times the gods have destroyed a world or hid while the Snarl destroyed it.

I just want to chime in that both Redcloak and Serini were skeptical when first informed that the gods were standing by ready end the world if the situation got too bad. Similarly you had Azure City nobles who didn't believe just how bad the attack on their city was going to be. Just because you tell people that the gods will destroy the world if they monkey with something doesn't mean they'll necessarily believe you. Especially because it's hard to clearly demonstrate that the gods will end the world without them doing just that, which would render all gate defenses irrelevant.

The gate defenses are currently irrelevant. The only difference is, nobody is building new gates. I don't know how long it takes, but if everyone knew, surely someone would be trying to rebuild Lirian's gate by now? Heck, with three epic arcanists and three epic divinists working, Lirian's, Dorukon's, and Girard's could be under construction now.

The secret prevents that.

[JNAProductions]

I'm not sure it's worth debating you on this, Brian.
You ignore anything that doesn't suit your preconceived notions and dismiss valid points because they reveal your idea's weakness.

[fuschiawarrior]

Another complication about revealing everything about the Snarl is that people would start worshipping it ("if it can kill gods, it must be more powerful than them so it will give me what I want/ need if I pray/ sacrifice/ make this ritual") and if enough of them believed it, we would have Snarl apotheosis and this destabilize everything even if it wouldn't result in immediate destruction of the world.

[Errorname]

Because Soon believed in keeping the secret and taught his successors to do so as well does not mean he was right. Soon was wrong about the unbreakability of the honor of a paladin as well.

Was Soon wrong? His own honour seemed pretty unbreakable and nearly won the day, and the Guard were all willing to give their lives in defense of the gate when called. Arguably the problem is that Soon could not conceive of a situation where a Paladin's unbreakable sense of honour would become a bad thing.

They assume they can pull a fast one while nobody is looking. This is only possible because nobody is looking. If knowledge of the rifts was available to all, everybody with power and a vested interest in a future would be looking!

Xykon and Redcloak march a massive army of Hobgoblins into the biggest city on the southern continent. Everyone is watching already, and most of them aren't willing to intervene.

The idea that one can 'do something' with the gates is based on knowing about the rifts and the Snarl, but not knowing that the greater danger is what the gods will do if threatened. Otherwise, it is as useful as a one-wheeled garbage truck.

The problem is that your solution of exposing the Gods's greatest and best hidden secret to the entire world will also threaten the gods. Like, both Stick and Scribble understood that their job was not just to protect the world from the Snarl, but also to protect the world from what the Gods might do to protect themselves from the Snarl.

The gate defenses are currently irrelevant. The only difference is, nobody is building new gates. I don't know how long it takes, but if everyone knew, surely someone would be trying to rebuild Lirian's gate by now? Heck, with three epic arcanists and three epic divinists working, Lirian's, Dorukon's, and Girard's could be under construction now.

I don't know if there even are three epic arcanists and three epic divinists who could be working on those gates. Xykon and Redcloak might be the only ones (even then I don't think Redcloak is epic level yet), and well, they are working on the gates.

I do agree that the inability of the Scribblers to respond to catastrophic failures of the other gates and repair the damage is a massive problem. I do not agree that the only way to solve that problem is complete transparancy. The Scribblers needed better communication within their conspiracy

Another complication about revealing everything about the Snarl is that people would start worshipping it ("if it can kill gods, it must be more powerful than them so it will give me what I want/ need if I pray/ sacrifice/ make this ritual") and if enough of them believed it, we would have Snarl apotheosis and this destabilize everything even if it wouldn't result in immediate destruction of the world.

I had not factored in the possibility of Snarl worship, and I think this clinches any doubts I had that telling the whole world the secret would result in the gods destroying the world. The Gods absolutely would not be willing to risk allowing Snarl worship to exist, and the second cults started to pop up they'd pull the plug.

[brian 333]

I'm not sure it's worth debating you on this, Brian.
You ignore anything that doesn't suit your preconceived notions and dismiss valid points because they reveal your idea's weakness.

No, I am not ignoring anything. It is okay to disagree with me, even if I still think I am right. I defend my ideas, but that does not mean I dismiss yours. I do learn, sometimes, even if only that I am an optimist floating on a sea of pessimism.

It does seem that some valid points I have made have been dismissed as well, but I attribute that to the difficulty of responding to massive wall'o'text replies.

Sometimes I don't respond to posts with which I agree, or at least don't disagree. That is not 'dismissing a point,' that is concerning a point.

Was Soon wrong? His own honour seemed pretty unbreakable and nearly won the day, and the Guard were all willing to give their lives in defense of the gate when called. Arguably the problem is that Soon could not conceive of a situation where a Paladin's unbreakable sense of honour would become a bad thing.

All it ever takes for any defense to fail is one overlooked safety feature. In such a situation it is vital to have trained first responders ready to perform mitigation and remediation when the inevitable happens.

Xykon and Redcloak march a massive army of Hobgoblins into the biggest city on the southern continent. Everyone is watching already, and most of them aren't willing to intervene.

Who among them knew that the whole world was at risk? Their concern was their own survival. I would not doubt that they all strengthened their own defenses, never knowing that Azure City's conquerors put them all at risk of being unraveled.

They watch now, but nobody even knew about the attack until it was over. And still nobody knows about what is going on at the North Pole. They do not knows that they should be doing something because of the secret.

The problem is that your solution of exposing the Gods's greatest and best hidden secret to the entire world will also threaten the gods. Like, both Stick and Scribble understood that their job was not just to protect the world from the Snarl, but also to protect the world from what the Gods might do to protect themselves from the Snarl.

The gods do not want to destroy the world. They do want to protect themselves from the Snarl. The Secret does not make them safer because, as we see in comic, when the gates are threatened, there is nobody to call upon to defend them or rebuild them. If everyone knew that the gods were willing,able, and had a history of unravelling worlds to defend themselves, then for every Redcloak willing to blow the whole thing up, there would be many willing to stop him.

As for using the gates as a weapon against the gods, we know from Thor that if this was ever to become more than theoretical, the gods would just end the world and start over. The ultimate no-win scenario. The only reason TDO thought he might get away with it is because nobody was supposed to know he was even trying. The Secret helped him and endangered the rest of the gods.

I don't know if there even are three epic arcanists and three epic divinists who could be working on those gates. Xykon and Redcloak might be the only ones (even then I don't think Redcloak is epic level yet), and well, they are working on the gates.

I do agree that the inability of the Scribblers to respond to catastrophic failures of the other gates and repair the damage is a massive problem. I do not agree that the only way to solve that problem is complete transparancy. The Scribblers needed better communication within their conspiracy

I do not know if there is even one, now that Dorukon is gone. But if there are any, they should be either fighting Xykon or rebuilding broken gates. The Secret has them comfortably on the sidelines.

I had not factored in the possibility of Snarl worship, and I think this clinches any doubts I had that telling the whole world the secret would result in the gods destroying the world. The Gods absolutely would not be willing to risk allowing Snarl worship to exist, and the second cults started to pop up they'd pull the plug.

I had not considered Snarl Worship. Having now considered it, would that be a bad thing? Anyone who wants to meet the Snarl could step through the rift. Maybe one day one of them will come back.

[Unoriginal]

Dorukan was aware of Lirian's Gate being destroyed for years.

That means he either didn't want to replace the Gate, or couldn't.

Considering Dorukan spent a lifetime protecting the world, actively tried to bring Lirian back from the dead, and knew better than anyone still alive what a Snarl rift being left open represent to the world, it'd be incredibly out of character for him to not want the region where Lirian's forest was to be safe.

Which means that the logical explanation is that Dorukan couldn't replace the Gate. Despite being the world's premier expert in magical seals, and half the team that crafted those Gates in the first place.

The idea that Gates could be rebuilt and rifts resealed if only all the people in the world knew about the Snarl simply does not hold up.


As for the "but what would the villains even do with a Gate if they knew the truth?" question, the answer is simple:

Unlike Redcloak, the master of the sunk cost fallacy, Xykon knows that *any* power is power, and that you go to war with the army you have not the army you want.

Even if they can't use the Snarl directly, whoever has the Gates can make the gods destroy the world. That is power. The gods are maybe willing to destroy the world if there is an hint the ritual to move the rift to a different plane is happening, but that doesn't mean a majority of them wouldn't consider "just let Xykon rule the world and he will make sure they hold" to be a preferable alternative. And as long as the gods don't blow up the world, Xykon can racket mortals' nations and

Furthermore, as pointed out above, it's likely possible to do *something* with the Snarl, or at least try to. Having access to the Gates and a detailled explanation means a ton of people will want to experiment, and even more will want to make the experimenters unable to do it.

[Errorname]

All it ever takes for any defense to fail is one overlooked safety feature. In such a situation it is vital to have trained first responders ready to perform mitigation and remediation when the inevitable happens.

True, but something of a non-sequitur.

I would also say, again, having a response strategy for catastrophic failure does not need to entail letting everyone know about the god killing abomination.

The gods do not want to destroy the world. They do want to protect themselves from the Snarl. The Secret does not make them safer because, as we see in comic, when the gates are threatened, there is nobody to call upon to defend them or rebuild them. If everyone knew that the gods were willing,able, and had a history of unravelling worlds to defend themselves, then for every Redcloak willing to blow the whole thing up, there would be many willing to stop him.

The Gods are, at this point, extremely used to destroying the world, and if it wasn't for the Dark One presenting a chance to break the cycle of the Snarl escaping Stickworld would have already been destroyed. The Snarl is a god killing abomination they created with their petty squabbling that will inevitably destroy the world. The mortals and outsiders knowing any of those is bad, knowing all of those is terrible. It exposes all the weaknesses of the gods' claim to rightful authority, and potentially undermines their sources of worship.

I had not considered Snarl Worship. Having now considered it, would that be a bad thing? Anyone who wants to meet the Snarl could step through the rift. Maybe one day one of them will come back.

For the Gods and their interests? Absolutely. It's disastrously bad, because it is both denying them the worship that sustains them and directing it towards the abomination that they hate and fear, potentially further empowering it.

[Tubercular Ox]

Okay, seriously, let's make this about the dubious ethics of appointing yourself savior of the world and deciding by yourself who gets to contribute to its protection and who doesn't. The Paladins went rogue within a generation, Girard's family was slipping, Lirian's inventing bioweapons (bet the gods would love to see that one become a pandemic), Serini did things she regrets, but only because of a near death experience. I guess Dorukan gets a bye, but he seemed to have less of a plan than the others for what to do after the timely death he never got.

I don't want to make this a binary thing where either it's completely secret or we're starting grammar schools to warn the children. Maybe having an outreach department is a middle ground here? You know, actually look for people who can help out instead of assuming you're the only incorruptible champion who is safe to know the world's darkest secrets?

And I'll poke the gods on this, too. There is more they could be doing than just placing bets on a handful of mortals with delusions of grandeur, and if they have real concerns about doing that, we should be trying to figure out those concerns and do something to allay them.