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2024-02-25, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
Second try at posting, as my initial detailed post failed to, well, post 😢
Short version: ECL 3 CG female Star Elf (Celestial template) is taking first level in Bard, and aspires to Troubadour of Stars PrC. I'd like advice for a near-optimized overhaul without changing her ability scores, please. The PrC requires ability to spontaneously cast 10th level arcane spells, so the most advantageous way for the character to get there is what I'm after.
Ability scores: STR 12, DEX 19, CON 16, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 18
Skill rank assignments are mostly open; her main musical instrument is the flute, and she knows how to use a lute and a lyre as well. She must have at least one rank each in Craft (woodworking), Survival (born and raised in the Yuirwood of Faerun), and Knowledge (nature). I'd like to max Knowledge (history) to start with as well.
She fights when necessary with an Elven Lightblade (treat as a rapier), shortbow, and dagger; she much prefers ranged to melee combat.
Looking to her future, she's contemplating entering Sorcerer and Crusader (Bo9S) classes, but again, the most efficient route to 4th level arcane spellcasting is crucial.
All d20 3.5 published materials are acceptable for this. TIA very much for any help! Elysara (the character) and I look forward to exploring and exploiting the options :)
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2024-02-25, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
How comfortable are you with early entry techniques? Without that, the earliest entry seems to be Sorcerer 7/Heartfire Fanner 1/Troubador of Stars <n> or Bard 1/Wizard(spontaneous divination) 7/Troubador of Stars <n> .
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2024-02-26, 06:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
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2024-02-26, 07:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
There's a number of ways to cast 4th level spells earlier than you might expect. For example if you have enough feats (via flaws for example) and a permissive DM then you might pick up Sanctum Spell, Earth Spell, Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster to generate an effectively 4th level spell from two L1 Spell slots.
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2024-02-26, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
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2024-02-27, 03:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
Perhaps these would be suitable as flaws. Any good?
Luminous Aura: Elysara’s starlight glow is both captivating and revealing. Her skin emits a soft luminescence, making it difficult for her to hide in darkness or remain inconspicuous. Whenever she attempts to sneak or remain unseen, she suffers a -2 penalty to Stealth checks. However, her radiant presence grants her a +2 bonus to Charisma-based checks when interacting with curious or awestruck individuals.
Celestial Whispers: Elysara occasionally hears faint celestial whispers, urging her toward acts of kindness and compassion. When faced with a situation where she can help others, she must succeed on a DC 15 Wisdom saving throw or be compelled to assist, even if it puts her own safety at risk. This flaw reflects her celestial lineage and the cosmic forces guiding her actions.
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2024-02-27, 06:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
Dragon magazine published some:
Flaws for Bards (#324):
Arcane Performer - In order to cast any spell, you must succeed at a Perform check (DC 10 + spell level). If you fail, you lose the spell.
Brash - -6 to AC vs AoO
Coward - auto-fail all saves vs fear effects; abilities which should make you immune to fear instead allow to actually make your saves (but with -4 penalty)
Fool - lose the Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics Bardic Music abilities.
Frivolous Performer - -10 on Bardic Knowledge checks, unless the check is related to you Perform skill in which you have the most ranks - such as Perform (wind instrument) allows to use your Bardic Knowledge without penalty to identify famous wind instruments, to remember facts about famous wind instrument players, or to identify places that make quality wind instruments.
Loudmouth - -4 penalty on Diplomacy and Move Silently checks
Meticulous Performer - Initiating or maintaining any bardic music ability is a full-round action.
Trivial Performer - the save DC of your Fascinate, Suggestion, and Mass Suggestion abilities is halved (rounded down); benefits of Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, or Inspire Heroics Bardic Music end as soon as you stop performing (rather than +5 rounds)
Flaws for Elves (#328):
Elven Pride of Arms - -4 on all attacks, except for those which made with "elven" weapons (RAW says "longsword, rapier, or bow" - but come on: not even lightblade/thinblade/courtblade? Valenar Double Scimitar? Drow Long Knife and Scorpion Chain? Double Bow and Hand Crossbow? Xen'drik Boomerang?); penalty applied even for natural weapon, unarlmed attacks, and touch attacks
Frail - failing a Fort save fatigues you for 8 hour in addition to any other effect; if you fatigued already - you would be exhausted (but same-source fatigues wouldn't stack)
Fussy - drinking a potion make you sickened for the same time as the potion's normal effect duration; if effect was instant - sickened for number of minutes equal to the potion's CL; also, -4 on saves vs digested poisons
Slow Healing - you don't recover lost hp via "normal" resting; complete bed rest for a full day allow to recover 1 hp; if Conjuration (healing) spell is cast on you - its CL is halved
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2024-02-27, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
If you don't have access to the Heartfire Fanner (it's on a Dragon magazine), the "meat" is that at first level, it let you use Bardic music as a 5th level bard. This is because this progression remove the 1st level in bard.
This way you would use both the prcs to advance your sorcerer spellcasting. You will have to adjust something here and there to get what you need about using musical instrument and weapons. Something like, work on the sorcerer side to get the weapons (battle sorcerer/stalwart sorcerer are variants that get some weapons, if I don't recall badly), and you can work with some cross-class point in Perform
This build locks all your feats:
You need Negotiator and Skill Focus(Perform) for the Fanner, and Knight of the Star for the Troubadour
Is your first level of bard "changeable"?
If NOT (and so getting your "bardic abilities" through Heartfire Fanner at 8th class level, after 7 level of sorcerer), this build can't be used.
In that case (if the first level in bard is locked, or you can't take the Fanner), you can go trough the route of the spontaneous wizard one, but with sorcerer (if you don't like prepared casting in any way, shape or form, or your DM don't think that spontaneous divination actually counts as "spontaneously cast 4th-level arcane spells"):
bard 1/sorcerer 8/troubadour X
You'll enter 1 level later, and you will still have 2 different spell progression (even if the bardic one is 1 level long..)I'm from Italy. So,sorry for my bad English!
Thanks A LOT to Nevitan for the fantastic Avatar!
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2024-02-27, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
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2024-02-27, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
So Bard 1/Wizard(Spontaneous Divination ACF) 7/Troubadour of Stars <n> seems the most straightforward approach.
You might consider Bard 1/Wizard 7/Troubadour of Stars <n> taking Spell Mastery and Uncanny Forethought feats as an alternative. That would give you a broader scope of spontaneous casting.
There are a bunch of possible prestige classes you might dip instead of Wizard 6 & 7. Divine Oracle 2 is a reasonably good choice, for example.Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2024-02-27, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
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2024-02-27, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
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2024-02-27, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
And between the Spell Mastery + Uncanny Forethought vs. Spontaneous Divination ACF, which do you prefer? The former requires more feats and build resources focused towards intelligence while providing more versatility about which wizard spells can be spontaneous.
A minor side-note here is that the Frog God's Fane special location can grant Knowledge[Religion] as a bonus feat at a cost of 3k gp.Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2024-02-27, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
Spell Mastery + Uncanny Forethought allows for a wider range of spells to choose from, so that looks better to me. If the character goal requires Knowledge (Religion), which something tells me it does, a free feat is always desirable. She'll just have to get busy acquiring the gold :)
Last edited by ericp65; 2024-02-27 at 06:09 PM.
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2024-02-27, 08:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
So, I think you are looking at:
Star Elf Bard 1/Wizard 5/Divine Oracle 2/Troubadour of Stars <n>
with feats:
Flaw 1: ??
Flaw 2: ??
1. Knight of Stars
3. Spell Mastery
5. <some metamagic>
Frog God's Fane: Knowledge[Religion]
6. Uncanny Forethought
9+??
with a 32 point stats of Str 8/Dex 14/Con 12 (=14-2)/Int 16/Wis 8/Cha 18(=16+2)
You'll want to either put your first stat increase at level 4 into intelligence or buy Headband of Int+2 (4k) before taking level 6.Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2024-02-28, 04:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
Flaws will definitely be Arcane Performer and Meticulous Performer. They fit her fluff.
If Wizard is the best choice in classes for this plan, I'll exchange her CON and INT to 14 and 16, respectively. That way, at CL 4, she can raise her INT to 17, take Uncanny Forethought, and enter 1st level in Wizard at the same time.
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2024-02-28, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
Which feats should be gained for them though? They aren't presently in use. (And have you confirmed that flaws are ok? Some DMs don't like them and they are optional.)
Improved Initiative is generally pretty good.
I like Ocular Spell + Easy Metamagic[Ocular Spell] since it effectively doubles the number of spells you can cast in a round once per combat. However, these become useful later than level 1. At first level, you might consider Wild Cohort[Riding Dog] and/or Shape Soulmeld[Bloodtalons]. Then later, you might retrain (see PHBII) to have metamagic. Familiarizing yourself with the retraining rules is handy another way: you can increase levels in perform at in class rates since you have a level in bard.
You may also want to consider the Extra Music feat which would allow you to use bard song 5/day rather than 1/day.
There's also the first level of Wizard which grants a familiar, scribe scroll, and has an option to specialize. These are both fine, but there are some alternative class features which change these for other things. You might consider Aligned Spellcaster[good] for flavor reasons or Eidetic Spellcaster so you don't have to deal with spellbooks, I'd definitely recommend the Elf Wizard ACF which gives you an extra spell/day of the highest level. The Wilderness Companion instead of a Familiar would allow you to get another Riding Dog which are very potent early on, but the familiar may be more useful longer run.
I'm not quite following the exchange---Int is already 16 in the suggestion. Also, stat increases are based on character level, not effective character level and Uncanny Forethought requires Spell Mastery as a prerequisite which further requires Wizard 1. Given that, taking Spell Mastery at the point where you character is Bard 1/Wizard 2 and Uncanny Forethought at the point where your character is Bard 1/Wizard 5 is the earliest option.
Speaking of which, your ECL adjust of +3 matters a _great_ deal if you are paying full price for it. (Many DMs wave some amount of ECL.) The way experience is awarded in the game, you'll be 3 character levels behind others, which is extremely harmful for spellcasters and around character level 1. If you are paying full price, you should check with your DM if level buyoff is allowed, and consider playing instead a Lesser Aasimar transitioning to Half-Celestial. That would allow your effective character level to only ever be one level higher than your character level while gaining and disposing of a level adjustment every 3 levels.Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2024-02-28, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
Flaws are approved in the campaign, so Elysara gets Arcane Performer and Meticulous Performer.
[snip]
From a third-party sourcebook, she initially got Focused Healing. She also starts with Nymph's Kiss and Obtain Familiar.
There's also the first level of Wizard which grants a familiar, scribe scroll, and has an option to specialize. These are both fine, but there are some alternative class features which change these for other things. You might consider Aligned Spellcaster[good] for flavor reasons or Eidetic Spellcaster so you don't have to deal with spellbooks, I'd definitely recommend the Elf Wizard ACF which gives you an extra spell/day of the highest level. The Wilderness Companion instead of a Familiar would allow you to get another Riding Dog which are very potent early on, but the familiar may be more useful longer run.
I'm not quite following the exchange---Int is already 16 in the suggestion. Also, stat increases are based on character level, not effective character level and Uncanny Forethought requires Spell Mastery as a prerequisite which further requires Wizard 1. Given that, taking Spell Mastery at the point where you character is Bard 1/Wizard 2 and Uncanny Forethought at the point where your character is Bard 1/Wizard 5 is the earliest option.
Do you mean that her character level benefits (feats, ability score bonus) don't start until her first class level, in this case being her first level in Bard? And then her next ability score bonus would come when she has a total of four class levels?
Speaking of which, your ECL adjust of +3 matters a _great_ deal if you are paying full price for it. (Many DMs wave some amount of ECL.) The way experience is awarded in the game, you'll be 3 character levels behind others, which is extremely harmful for spellcasters and around character level 1. If you are paying full price, you should check with your DM if level buyoff is allowed, and consider playing instead a Lesser Aasimar transitioning to Half-Celestial. That would allow your effective character level to only ever be one level higher than your character level while gaining and disposing of a level adjustment every 3 levels.
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2024-02-28, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
2 familiars can be quite a bit of fun. You might look at Enspell Familiar as another interesting feat in that case.
Got it, but in that case your un-adjusted Con was 18, so when you swap it should be CON 12 and INT 18, right?
Yes, and yes. Character level benefits vary with character level, not effective character level. Thus a high level adjustment means you lose on skill maxes, ability bumps, feats, caster level, etc.... it's effectively a comprehensive debuff.
Well, you should definitely use LA buyoff and you should expect to have significant difficulties initially. Part of the reason isn't clear from that section---you have to read the DMG and note that the experience given to a character is exponentially related to ECL-EL. GIven that exponential, the buyoff is hugely helpful.
One last thought is that you might consider a celestial bloodline instead of the celestial template if your DM is willing. The bloodline rules are wonky---as stated, the optimal thing to do is just pick up 3 levels of bloodline before you reach character level 2. A more gradual approach is to pick them up at levels 3, 6, and 12. The benefit is that you don't suffer from a level adjustment using a celestial bloodline. In fact, you kind-of have a negative level adjustment in some respects since the bloodline levels increase your maximum skill ranks and caster level.Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2024-02-28, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
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2024-02-28, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
That's the Celestial (not Half-Celestial) template and the 1st level in Bard, for a total ECL of 3. Sorry for lack of clarity.
Wow, Sha'ir looks really good, and suits the character, even relying on one of her highest abilities :) I'll strongly consider it, if allowed.Last edited by ericp65; 2024-02-28 at 05:02 PM.
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2024-02-28, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
I'm inclined to think that Sha'ir is not a spontaneous caster, but opinions vary. Without that, you can't enter Troubadour of Stars.
Oh, you're right. Somehow I was thinking it was Star Elf = +1. LA+2 is still rough, but notably better.
My impression is Celestial is the goal, not Half-Celestial.Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2024-02-28, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
Oop, yes, that's right. I forgot to redo the racial adjustment for CON regarding the switch. Thanks for pointing that out!
Yes, and yes. Character level benefits vary with character level, not effective character level. Thus a high level adjustment means you lose on skill maxes, ability bumps, feats, caster level, etc.... it's effectively a comprehensive debuff.
Well, you should definitely use LA buyoff and you should expect to have significant difficulties initially. Part of the reason isn't clear from that section---you have to read the DMG and note that the experience given to a character is exponentially related to ECL-EL. GIven that exponential, the buyoff is hugely helpful.
One last thought is that you might consider a celestial bloodline instead of the celestial template if your DM is willing. The bloodline rules are wonky---as stated, the optimal thing to do is just pick up 3 levels of bloodline before you reach character level 2. A more gradual approach is to pick them up at levels 3, 6, and 12. The benefit is that you don't suffer from a level adjustment using a celestial bloodline. In fact, you kind-of have a negative level adjustment in some respects since the bloodline levels increase your maximum skill ranks and caster level.
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2024-02-29, 02:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
About that: bloodline are very "simple" to manage (you take a "level in bloodline" at a certain level), but are a little bit underpowered for what they offer, especially if you go for a major one. Look if your master allow you to use LA-buyoff on it, and how to manage it. Like, you take the level, than after some time you pay it off, and so on, and so on.
3 "lost level" that only count to increase your charater level in a niche situation (unless you exploit it, there are some exploit around bloodlines) are NOT worth it for minor bonus to skill, minor resistence, +1 to 3 characteristics, and 2 featsI'm from Italy. So,sorry for my bad English!
Thanks A LOT to Nevitan for the fantastic Avatar!
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2024-02-29, 04:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
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2024-02-29, 05:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
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2024-02-29, 08:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
This is a good solution.
Did the DM rule on whether Sha'ir is spontaneous or not?
The +3 to caster level is actually quite nice and the +3 to max rank skills is fairly useful for opposed skills.
There may also be a couple misconceptions here.
- Bloodline levels do not require level buyoff since: Originally Posted by Bloodline levelsOriginally Posted by Bloodline levels
- Furthermore, the XP cost could be as low as 3k for a major bloodline. Originally Posted by Bloodline levels
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2024-02-29, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
DM says Sha'ir don't have to prepare spells in advance in order to cast during play, which defines as spontaneous caster. That makes Bard also a spontaneous caster, but Sha'ir is too intriguing for me to ignore :) So, I predict Elysara will take first level in Sha'ir when she's got enough xp to advance a level. From there, unless there's a better (faster, more efficient, greater benefit) way for her to get to Troubadour of Stars, she'll continue through 5th level of Sha'ir, then take two levels of Divine Oracle, and finally enter ToS.
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2024-02-29, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought
It also frees up two feats since you no longer need or qualify for Spell Mastery and Uncanny Forethought.
You might also want to swap your Con and Cha stats in that case. Undoing and then redoing racial modifiers, you should end up Con 14 and Cha 20 which gives you a commanding casting stat.
One of the odd things about Sha'ir is that you don't want to many levels since spells hang around in memory for <level> hours. Consequently, if you keep your number of Sha'ir levels to (say) 3, you can swap a bad-in-the-discovered-situation spell for another 3 hours later. There are a few prestige classes which fully advance spellcasting and allow an easy early entry---Geomancer (better BAB, hd, saves, skills) and Mystic Theurge(dual advancing) are good examples. You might look at each. For example:
Bard 1/Sha'ir 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Divine Oracle 2/Troubadour of Stars <n> would net you the minor benefit of Bard 3 casting over a more vanilla Bard 1/Sha'ir 5/Divine Oracle 2/Troubadour of Stars <n>
(Remember that a Sha'ir is both an arcane and a divine caster, so it can function as either in the context of a prestige class advancing casting.)Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2024-03-03, 04:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bard character build advice toward Troubadour of Stars sought