Melee Sorcerer Gish without multiclassing

[claypigeons]

I'd be interested to know if you guys would permit Twinning BB? Sounds like Crawford has said no, but that doesn't always dictate what people are actually doing.

The issue isn't that JC said one thing or another. The issue stems from the reprint of the spell in Tasha's making the range "Self", making it ineligible for the Twinning metamagic.

I personally don't believe it was ever a problem or overpowered to allow the blade cantrips to be twinned. Have a talk with your DM and see which version of the spells they use, TCoE or SCAG.

[OracularPoet]

Racial suggestion: MotM Shadar Kai gets prof bonus per long rest misty step with universal damage resistance rider, always on resistance to necrotic, and gains proficiency with two weapons after trance.

Edit: spelling

[Garfunion]

I’ve always felt the a melee spell casting build for Sorcerers could be made using Aberrant Dragon Mark with Shocking Grasp cantrip. Put all your stat buffs into Constitution and Dexterity, choose quicken & transmuted metamagic, pick spells that don’t rely on spellcaster stat like magic missile and cloud of daggers.

[Arkhios]

I'd go with the initial first-ever UA introducing the Favored Soul. Sure, it might be a bit bonkers, but given that UA is allowed...

Armor, shield and weapon proficiencies as well as Extra Attack are the real selling point for me, but adding domain spells to your standard sorcerer repertoire and wings at 14th level do add some nice abilities too. With the right choice of domain spell list, you'll make for a great Sorcerer Gish.

[Theodoxus]

I'd be interested to know if you guys would permit Twinning BB? Sounds like Crawford has said no, but that doesn't always dictate what people are actually doing.

The issue isn't that JC said one thing or another. The issue stems from the reprint of the spell in Tasha's making the range "Self", making it ineligible for the Twinning metamagic.

I personally don't believe it was ever a problem or overpowered to allow the blade cantrips to be twinned. Have a talk with your DM and see which version of the spells they use, TCoE or SCAG.

Twinning, to me, always implied a single casting with a dual effect. SCAGtrips require swinging a weapon as part of the cast. Twinning would require making two simultaneous attacks with the same weapon on different targets. I would not allow it. I could see creating a new spell that replicated the effects of BB sans weapon. Could even be persuaded to grant it a 30' range if the damage was kept the same (none, 1d8, 2d8, 3d8, and then plus 1d8 if the target moves). Call is Sonic Shackles... or maybe not...

Does standing in melee and casting chain lightning count as gish? Is it only gish if you're using a weapon?

Generally speaking, Gish is “melee weapon ability+casting ability”. Not sure if OP is intending something else, but Gish typically isn’t just a melee caster.

Gish is either too narrow (a Gith martial artist that augments using magic) or too broad (anything that swings stick and casts spells). Thus, it depends on the OPs personal definition and what they want to do as a Gish. It'd be awesome if it had a singular definition (and technically, it does, but it's pretty apparent they're not talking about a Githyanki wizard ;)

So it’s a thorns build.

I think D&D in general is missing a huge opportunity with thorns builds. Especially after the discussion about how much AC is the right amount... Like, the closest you get to a thorns melee build is an Ancients Barbarian.. but imagine lowering your AC so you get hit more often, but you're dealing 2 or 3 times as much damage back... and you're a big scary barbarian that can't just be ignored. Yeah, your party healer is gonna be getting a work out, but you could easily face tank to your hearts content... I guess at the moment, the easiest way to accomplish this is with homebrew magic items to reflect incoming damage - though if there's something I'm missing, I'd love to hear it!

[RSP]

I guess at the moment, the easiest way to accomplish this is with homebrew magic items to reflect incoming damage - though if there's something I'm missing, I'd love to hear it!

Check out Clockwork Sorc. Upcast AoA with either Blade Ward or Bastion of Law to mitigate the loss of the tHP with incoming damage. If really into the thorniness, or for big fights, can tack on Fire Shield or get Gift of the Gem Dragon. Dips or feats for Hellish Rebuke.

But just using upcast AoA and BoL creates issues for the opposition.

[Kane0]

Check out Clockwork Sorc. Upcast AoA with either Blade Ward or Bastion of Law to mitigate the loss of the tHP with incoming damage. If really into the thorniness, or for big fights, can tack on Fire Shield or get Gift of the Gem Dragon. Dips or feats for Hellish Rebuke.

But just using upcast AoA and BoL creates issues for the opposition.

Much like what my build did, but he couldnt get access to AoA and had to resort to Hellish Rebuke.

[Melil12]

I am working on a Draconic Sorcerer right now with similar ideas.

My GM is letting me take the primal savagery cantrip. Lets me use my draconic claws and teeth :-)

Though I am also using the one dnd sorcerer.

[tokek]

I think D&D in general is missing a huge opportunity with thorns builds. Especially after the discussion about how much AC is the right amount... Like, the closest you get to a thorns melee build is an Ancients Barbarian.. but imagine lowering your AC so you get hit more often, but you're dealing 2 or 3 times as much damage back... and you're a big scary barbarian that can't just be ignored. Yeah, your party healer is gonna be getting a work out, but you could easily face tank to your hearts content... I guess at the moment, the easiest way to accomplish this is with homebrew magic items to reflect incoming damage - though if there's something I'm missing, I'd love to hear it!

Runechild gets a damage reduction mechanic Glyph of Aegis - its d6 rather than the d8 for clockwork but it comes in at level 1 instead of level 6 and you refresh them when you spend Sorcery Points on other things so you don't need to specifically spend them on building your ward. Also when your runes are out and your sorcery points expended you can regain one rune with an action. So for a thorns build its alright really.

Both have swappable additional spells to have native access to Armor of Agathys which is the key to the damage reflection part.

Then I realised that goblin and booming blade work nicely. So I'm far less bothered by needing multiple attacks - booming blade will scale my damage reasonably and will do so even better if I can BA disengage and force a melee enemy to move.

I don't think a melee sorcerer will ever be the toppest of top tiers but I do think the build I have is surprisingly capable of both surviving melee and punishing enemies for him being there.

Also a thorns build on a d6 hit dice is sort of scary - once the ward dice have run out you need to get out of the quickly. Fortunately BA disengage usually does that and BA hide can really help with keeping that character alive once their defences are spent.

[tokek]

Check out Clockwork Sorc. Upcast AoA with either Blade Ward or Bastion of Law to mitigate the loss of the tHP with incoming damage. If really into the thorniness, or for big fights, can tack on Fire Shield or get Gift of the Gem Dragon. Dips or feats for Hellish Rebuke.

But just using upcast AoA and BoL creates issues for the opposition.

Runechild does the same but at lower levels. It kicks in at level 2 which is the earliest you can swap one of your spells for AoA. I found it really workable at level 3.

The higher level features of Clockwork are undoubtedly better but waiting for level 14 to be better seems like a long wait

If the OP is allowed to use UA then they are probably clear to use the Critical Role stuff. I don't think Runechild is busted, I do think its the melee gish sorcerer option that kicks in at the lower level and its sort of alright.

If this was OneD&D I would take strike of the giants (cloud) then take guile of the cloud giants for the on-reaction resistance to damage. Lacking damage resistance does hurt this build and other than a quickened Blade Ward that's quite hard to get here.

[RSP]

Runechild gets a damage reduction mechanic Glyph of Aegis - its d6 rather than the d8 for clockwork but it comes in at level 1 instead of level 6 and you refresh them when you spend Sorcery Points on other things so you don't need to specifically spend them on building your ward…

…The higher level features of Clockwork are undoubtedly better but waiting for level 14 to be better seems like a long wait

Interesting. Didn’t know about Runechild so it probably wasn’t an option for me. Getting the thorns up earlier is a plus, and, overall, I like the Runechild’s access to Prot from Poison and Deathward, but I think it overall loses out to CS, assuming notable time spent at 6+.

CS has d8s to absorb, access to Aid for extra durability, and, small issue, but big for how I play: the glowing runes would negate Advantage from Shadow Blade, which is a great spell for melee Sorc.