New to DMM, and have a couple questions

[morkendi]

So, I have been tasked with a theme build by the DM. I am supposed to take leadership and have my cohort the direct descendent of a Vanya in Mystara but converted to 3.5. I am thinking Cleric 1, favored soul, prestige paladin. This represents the “natural” way she gets spells.

So 2 flaws healing devotion/ weapon bound.
This give me 3 feats as human. Taking planning domain gives extend spell. That allows at first lvl, I take persist, Devine meta magic, and extra turns. With 18 cha and extra turns that’s 11 turns. At level 3 extra turn again, which totals 15 which is just enough to persist 2 spells at character level 3 but only have access to first lvl spells. So bless and Devine favor seem the best options this early. Is there a spreadsheet or something that just does cleric spells to persist? I know Devine power later and such, but just looking for ideas until then as I am a little new to it. Touch spells are not persistable. Also no occular spell cheese and only 1 night stick per day.


I forgot to mention, he makes cohorts start at 1 and not just appear two levels lower than main character.

[Anthrowhale]

The build is stuck with level 1 spells for a very long time in my understanding---that's harsh. Would a Spontaneous Cleric just work instead? That would net you level 2 spells at ECL 3 instead of 5.

A standard trick is swapping Turn Undead for the Lightbringer Cleric Destroy Undead (which can still power DMM), and then picking up Turn Undead directly via Sacred Exorcist. This is usually better than Prestige Paladin although if you wanted to leverage the Serenity feat to shift you TUs over to Wis bonus, PP is preferred.

Another standard trick is use a rod of extend spell to shift 24 hours to 48 hours, effectively doubling duration.

A less standard trick is to focus on reducing the cost of Persistent Spell. For example, if you are Silverbrow Human, you could take Practical Metamagic[Persistent Spell] and Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell] to make it effectively +4 metamagic. Then you could potentially use Assume Supernatural Ability[Free Metamagic] and turn into a Tome Dragon to reduce the metamagic cost by a further 1 to 3 levels. The exact tradeoffs of reduction vs pool/TU amplification need to be looked at carefully.

At level 2, Elation is an excellent party buff persistable spell.

At level 3, Mass Lesser Vigor is another one.

[Twurps]

With prestige paladin in play, it should even be possible to get 3 turning pools. (I think 'rebuke dragon' is the one that paladin's can get as well, which also fuels DMM, but I'm typing from memory and it's been a while).

I think the reason that metamagic reduction tricks are so rare on a DMM build is that any feat you take could also just have been 'extra turning'. With 2 pools, that's 8 extra turn attempts. So unless you're persisting 8 spells a day, a feat that reduces your DMM by 1 is just not worth it.

[pabelfly]

With prestige paladin in play, it should even be possible to get 3 turning pools. (I think 'rebuke dragon' is the one that paladin's can get as well, which also fuels DMM, but I'm typing from memory and it's been a while).

I think the reason that metamagic reduction tricks are so rare on a DMM build is that any feat you take could also just have been 'extra turning'. With 2 pools, that's 8 extra turn attempts. So unless you're persisting 8 spells a day, a feat that reduces your DMM by 1 is just not worth it.

Also, you can only use a few metamagic reduction options as a Divine caster.

• Practical Metamagic requires you to ditch prepared casting on your Cleric, and also be a level behind on your spell slots.
• Easy Metamagic is great but it's Drag Mag material.
• Dweomerkeeper is a prestige class that is an option, but you'll be level 15 when you get it and makes it much harder to have multiple turning pools

Extra Turning just works, and has better effect the more turning pools you have.

[Darg]

Extra turn undead pools requires DM approval as it's not actually supported in the PHB which limits your turning attempts outside of your class feature specifically to 3/day + CHA.

[Twurps]

Extra turn undead pools requires DM approval as it's not actually supported in the PHB which limits your turning attempts outside of your class feature specifically to 3/day + CHA.

I won't content a DM's right to ban anything and everything (s)he sees fit. Other than that I struggle to make sense of this.
Both turning and rebuking are supported in the PHB, so you have multiple pools right there. You might need a larger pool (pun intended) of books to get access to the juicy classes like Sacred exorcist or death Delver, but if we're talking a DMM persist cleric, the 'PHB only' ship has already firmly sailed.

I also don't see what you mean by 'outside of your class features' as both turning, and rebuking are actually class features. Besides: the 'extra turning' feat text explicitly goes out of it's way to explain turning gained from a domain also gets the benefit. (You can't use those to fuel your DMM, but that's a different issue.) Finally, it also explicitly states it affect multiple pools, if you have them.

So you might want to ban it for balance reasons, but not because of shaky RAW or specific DM fiat requirements.

[Darg]

I won't content a DM's right to ban anything and everything (s)he sees fit. Other than that I struggle to make sense of this.
Both turning and rebuking are supported in the PHB, so you have multiple pools right there. You might need a larger pool (pun intended) of books to get access to the juicy classes like Sacred exorcist or death Delver, but if we're talking a DMM persist cleric, the 'PHB only' ship has already firmly sailed.

I also don't see what you mean by 'outside of your class features' as both turning, and rebuking are actually class features. Besides: the 'extra turning' feat text explicitly goes out of it's way to explain turning gained from a domain also gets the benefit. (You can't use those to fuel your DMM, but that's a different issue.) Finally, it also explicitly states it affect multiple pools, if you have them.

So you might want to ban it for balance reasons, but not because of shaky RAW or specific DM fiat requirements.

In the special attacks section of the combat chapter is turn or rebuke undead. It sets the number attempts per day. Regardless of source. Many of which don't bother restating that number. Every source of turn undead reference these rules and never mention stacking. It's the same ability. It's also the same ability if you get turning from one source and rebuke from another.

[Anthrowhale]

Also, you can only use a few metamagic reduction options as a Divine caster.

• Practical Metamagic requires you to ditch prepared casting on your Cleric, and also be a level behind on your spell slots.
• Easy Metamagic is great but it's Drag Mag material.
• Dweomerkeeper is a prestige class that is an option, but you'll be level 15 when you get it and makes it much harder to have multiple turning pools

Extra Turning just works, and has better effect the more turning pools you have.

The good choice here is highly contextual.

If we're looking at (say) 3+7(cha)+4(nightstick)+2(reliquary holy symbol)+5x4 (Extra turning x5)=36 TUs that's 5 persistent spells/day.
On the other hand, if you swap an Extra Turning for Easy metamagic, you have 32 TUs and can also persist 5 spells/day.
And if you do Easy + Practical, you have 28 TUs and can also persist 5 spells/day.
... which all suggests it doesn't matter.

But, if you have the animal domain and Shapechange[Tome Dragon] for a 3 levels of free metamagic, the math shifts. In that situation, 36 TUs gives you 9 persistent spells/day while 32 TUs + Easy Metamagic makes it 10 spells/day and 28 TUs + Easy + Practical Metamagic makes it 14 spells/day.

Overall, metamagic reducers as feats trading off 1-for-1 with Extra Turning become superior only when you have non-feat ancillary metamagic reduction sources and they become more superior the more ancillary metamagic reduction sources you have.

[Twurps]

In the special attacks section of the combat chapter is turn or rebuke undead. It sets the number attempts per day. Regardless of source.

You mean the section that specifically calls out 'clerics and paladins', and then specifically calls out 'undead' as the target this ability?
By that logic Ur priests, sacred exorcists, and death delvers shouldn't be getting turning at all. And the plant domain (from the same book, mind you) cannot give 'rebuke plants' because plants aren't undead.
The special attack section of the PHB is clearly the 'general' in the whole specific>general here. Or the whole thing fails misserably

Many of which don't bother restating that number.

Rebuke Undead: Like an evil cleric, you can rebuke undead. Use your death delver level as the cleric level for determining success and damage. You can do this a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier and can take the Extra Turning feat to gain additional turn attempts.

A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.

The numbers ARE restated. For a cleric, in the cleric section, for the death delver in it's own text, and for most others by referencing 'As a cleric' and then stating the level of cleric that should be used.

Every source of turn undead reference these rules and never mention stacking. It's the same ability. It's also the same ability if you get turning from one source and rebuke from another.

You can't stack turning and rebuking, as it's 2 completely different effects. Therefore, there's no reason to ever mention stacking. By that same logic, they're also not 'the same ability'. They can't be, as they have a completely different effect.

[Darg]

You mean the section that specifically calls out 'clerics and paladins', and then specifically calls out 'undead' as the target this ability?
By that logic Ur priests, sacred exorcists, and death delvers shouldn't be getting turning at all. And the plant domain (from the same book, mind you) cannot give 'rebuke plants' because plants aren't undead.
The special attack section of the PHB is clearly the 'general' in the whole specific>general here. Or the whole thing fails misserably

Or what you consider "specific" is in reference to those general rules considering they say what the general rules say and require you to use those general rules for most of the mechanic. Thus they aren't any more specific or in exception to the general rule.

The numbers ARE restated. For a cleric, in the cleric section, for the death delver in it's own text, and for most others by referencing 'As a cleric' and then stating the level of cleric that should be used.

All classes other than cleric use "as a cleric" in its description because it's an easily identifiable example and reference point. Not to mention turning checks use "cleric levels" for mechanical determination.

As for restating the number of uses, it's as I said it was, only some of them do.

You can't stack turning and rebuking, as it's 2 completely different effects. Therefore, there's no reason to ever mention stacking. By that same logic, they're also not 'the same ability'. They can't be, as they have a completely different effect.

Except they are the same ability as exampled by cleric's "Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su)" ability and the fact that they are both tied to the times per day function of turning checks. The only difference is the result and the source of the energy.