Dune II

[Eldan]

So. Dune II's out. I could talk at length about the many things they changed. Some for the better, some not necessarily. Some are regrettable. But honestly, just overall:

Man what a movie . They stuck the landing on this one. It works, it's visually spectacular, they got the message across.

A few nonspoilerly comments: great action and crowd scenes. Some impressive cinematography. Good acting. More focus on characters who needed it, like the Bene Gesserit and Lady Jessica (Margot Fenring, is, sadly, quite reduced, but at least she's there). Bit more focus on just how weird the Dune universe sometimes is, with some entirely casual use of extremely high technology that the movie doesn't even give much focus to, it just happens. Possible main criticism: they did the Fremen a bit dirty, here, possibly because of runtime limits. It's already very long.

Spoilers for those who care, mostly about things changed from the books and whether I think they worked or not:

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Lady Jessica is one of the biggest changes. She's even more instrumental to Paul's rise. As soon as she's sent to the Southern Fremen, she goes into stone-cold Bene Gesserit manipulator mode and proceeds to build a cult. In fact, that's a thing that the movie strongly leans into, overall: Paul sees the future of the holy war, and he doesn't want it. But everyone else around him does, and they leave him no choice. He doesn't want to be Mahdi and start a holy war, but Jessica builds fanatic followers for him. He wants to be just one part of the resistance of the Fremen against the Imperium and not its leader, but Stilgar won't let him not lead and Gurney Halleck hands him a cache of atomic weapons only he can use. It works really well.

The second is the compressed timeline and Fremen culture. Instead of staying with the Fremen for years, Paul is with them for a few months: Lady Jessica is pregnant throughout and doesn't give birth before the end. And that means Fremen culture really suffers in the movie. In that, we aren't really shown it. We don't see the Southern Fremen much. We barely see the Sietches, other than some holy locations. Paul never has and then loses a child. Fremen religion is enormously compressed, we don't see what they do with the Water of Life, other than make Reverend Mothers, we don't see the Zen and Sufi inspirations, any of it. And of course they changed "Jihad" to Holy War throughout.

The third big change is that, interestingly, the Spacing Guild is entirely absent from the movie, for all their political relevance. Paul threatening to destroy the spice fields is what gets him Arrakis and the compliance of the emperor (plus a knife at the emperor's neck, of course), but it doesn't give him yet control over space. Maybe something for the third movie to focus on. I guess it works well enough and it simplifies the politics, but I really don't think another five minutes at the end where he blackmails a few guild navigators would have hurt the movie in any way.

Fourth, Chani. Chani in this movie is not religious, and does not believe the prophecy. She's just a freedom fighter, and by the end of the movie, actually breaks off from Paul who now calls himself Atreides again and retreats to the desert. Interesting for the sequel setup, well-enough acted, but suffers a bit from "actually is an enlightened modern atheist" syndrome and doesn't entirely fit in.

[Catullus64]

I had a great time watching it, but this one is much more thought-provoking than the first in terms of digging into the more meaty themes of the book, after the first one was mostly setting the table.

If you saw and liked the first one, see this one. Duh. That's about all I can say without spoiling.

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This movie changes a lot from the book, even more than the first one, but I don't mind, since I think they were made with very clear intention; like the first film, I think most of the changes exist to sharpen the book's existing themes for a modern film audience.

The biggest change, by far, is that Jessica and Chani's roles from the book are essentially reversed. In the book, Chani is all-aboard the Muad'dib Train, and Jessica, though she still aids Paul's ascendancy, is far more reluctant and ultimately regretful about the monster she has literally created. Here, Chani is openly hostile to the prophecy, while Jessica goes hard on exploiting it.

On balance, I think this is a change for the better, if not necessarily the one I would have made (and it does introduce a few logical hiccups if you think about some of it). Chani in the books lacks a lot of interiority or internal conflict for how important she is to the story, so having her be a hardline Fremen nativist who smells a rat concerning the prophecy definitely enhances the drama of her and Paul's relationship, and Zendaya carries it off ably. (Chalamet not so much, but I'll get to him). The book wants to be sympathetic to the Fremen, to the way in which they get exploited and co-opted into a tool of galactic politics and psycho-genetic mania, but it muddles it by biasing so heavily towards the viewpoint of the people (mostly Paul and Jessica) doing the exploiting. Since the film mostly doesn't try to capture the book's idea of the Jihad as a primal impulse that even Paul is mostly powerless to stop, I appreciate the decision to instead give the Fremen in general and Chani more specifically a greater voice in the process.

Jessica is somewhat slighted by the change, though; she's much more easily manipulated by Alia, and doesn't seem particularly troubled by unleashing the jihad on the galaxy. I understand how it was necessary in order for the conflict with Chani to make much sense, but I hardly recognize the Jessica from the books, even if Rebecca Ferguson gives a killer performance. I wish they could have given her a little more screen time compared with Chani.

That change ties in with another major one, the introduction of an ethnic subdivision between Northern/Southern Fremen, with Southerners (mostly represented here by Stilgar) inhabiting poorer, even less hospitable regions and believing strongly in the prophecy, and Northerners from nearer Arrakeen being areligious and openly hostile to the prophetic business, which they seem to be aware is a Bene Gesserit sham. I'm not quite sure what is added by this change, other than justifying Chani's skepticism on cultural grounds. It kinda makes the Missionaria Protectiva seem inept, since they apparently failed to indoctrinate the Fremen in the richer, more habitable part of the planet!

I thought the Harkonnen/Giedi Prime aesthetic in the first movie was kinda drab and boring, but here they really go all in on this ghoulish monochrome look, and it worked for me. I do wish the Imperial court had a bit more opulence and grandeur for contrast. The action and battle scenes are very cool, particularly the hand-to-hand combat stuff.

Then there's Paul. I found Chalamet's performance to be adequate, but not much more. In the first film I thought he did a really good job showing an intelligent, sensitive, but also callow and unsure Paul Atreides, but this film required him to project more power and command, and I'm not sure he really stuck the landing. There are a lot of scenes where he plays emotions 'hot' that I would have played 'cold', and much of it comes off like the overcompensation of a teenager rather than the wise, charismatic (albeit still deeply troubled) leader that the story demands him to be. But there are still moments of brilliance in the performance; the weary resignation with which he delivers his final line of the film ("Lead them to paradise") captures well the spirit of Paul's defeated, hopeless interior monologue from the books.

I'm very interested in how they will pull this all together for a hopeful third film based on Dune Messiah; the rift between Paul and Chani that this film ends on certainly introduces complications. Unless they decide to change the plot of the latter books completely, Chani still needs to have Paul's babies, after all.

[Eldan]

Two comments on that, especially about the Missionaria and the North/Sound divide:

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I don't think the southern Fremen are necessarily poorer. If anything, they are the industrial base. Everyone thinks the South is uninhabitable, but it's simply not true. The Spacing Guild has refused to chart the South, so it's just that no one knows what's there, but it's where the Millions of Fremen are hiding.

As for the missionaria, the impression I got was that it was mainly Chani being aware of it, because Paul told her? The other Fremen were less fundamentalist, because they had more contact with Arrakeen and Off-worlders, but not necessarily aware of the Bene Gesserit? But I may have missed something.

[Trafalgar]

Two comments on that, especially about the Missionaria and the North/Sound divide:

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I don't think the southern Fremen are necessarily poorer. If anything, they are the industrial base. Everyone thinks the South is uninhabitable, but it's simply not true. The Spacing Guild has refused to chart the South, so it's just that no one knows what's there, but it's where the Millions of Fremen are hiding.

As for the missionaria, the impression I got was that it was mainly Chani being aware of it, because Paul told her? The other Fremen were less fundamentalist, because they had more contact with Arrakeen and Off-worlders, but not necessarily aware of the Bene Gesserit? But I may have missed something.

Spoiler: Fremen Power

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If anything, the fact that the Fremen have influenced the Spacing Guild into not charting the South show hows much power and industry there is in the South.

Danika (AKA Comic Book Girl 19) has posted her review. She is a huge fan of the original 6 books. I like her perspective and I agree with most of her points.

[Catullus64]

In response to the above:

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Maybe? We're not shown much of Fremen industry to inform us either way, and the plot point from the books about the Fremen bribing the Guild with spice to keep satellites off Arrakis isn't really brought up here. What is explicitly said in the film is that the South is a much, much harsher climate than the North ("no-one can survive there without faith"), hence my assumption that it's more resource-poor. Certainly it's poorer and less important from the perspective of the Imperium, since the North is apparently where all the spice harvesting happens.

Regarding the idea that Northern Fremen developed their cynical attitude from contact with offworlders, or from interaction with Jessica and Paul, that's possible, but is it ever really stated in the film?

I actually wonder if, in an earlier version of the script, Chani was Kynes' daughter like she is in the books. It would go quite a long way towards explaining why she is so averse to the idea of the Fremen being "afflicted with a Hero."

[Eldan]

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Well, with all the heavy ordnance, armour, communicatins, thumbers, etc. they have, they need an industrial base somewhere. And I'm sure I remember one of the Harkonnens, probably Rabban, saying they have no satellite coverage of Dune. THe rest, I suppose, was sacrificed the same as the entire spacing guild.

[pendell]

I assume the Spacing Guild exists in Dune 2 but is off-camera. It's how I explain the ending of the movie.

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Ships enter orbit around Dune, but twenty minutes later we have Fremen boarding transports to prepare to launch an interstellar invasion of the Imperium in support of Paul-Muad'dib's claim of accession.

If the ships in orbit belong to the great houses, I would expect them to establish a blockade in orbit ; the transports would be shot down as soon as they took off. Also, if they want to spare the spice fields, they can still glass Arrakeen, Carthag, and the Emperor's command center.

Why didn't this happen?

My guess is that the Spacing Guild got wind of Muad'dib's threat to destroy the spice fields, and simply left, carrying the Great Houses with them. Afterwards, Guild heighliners would provide interstellar passage to Atreides armies while denying it to the Great Houses. Thus isolated from each other, the Great Houses would be defeated, but given we're still conquering entire planets, there's still a lot of hard fighting ahead for the Atreides armies, resulting in the great interstellar Jihad of Paul's vision.

ETA: Also, from a real-world science perspective, what the devil is a 'Black Sun'? It's no spoiler , I think, to note that part of the movie takes place on the Harkonnen home world of Giedi Prime. It is shot entirely in infrared, so everything is gray-scale, black-and-white. This is why the Harkonnens like so much black in the movie -- it's an outgrowth of their environment. It's also why they're looters and slavers; Giedi Prime cannot sustain itself.

From movie-logic, the point is to emphasize the alienness of the Harkonnens, and how their environment shapes their society , as Villanueve explains . The Harkonnens are not just evil for the sake of evil; they are the product of their environment. And the key feature of their environment is the 'Black Sun' which the planet orbits , which causes everything on the planet to be black and white.

That's movie logic. But from real-world physics, what would a 'black sun' be? A pulsar or something? Or is it completely made up?


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[KorvinStarmast]

IThe Harkonnens are not just evil for the sake of evil; they are the product of their environment. And the key feature of their environment is the 'Black Sun' which the planet orbits , which causes everything on the planet to be black and white.

The Harnonnens are not evil, just misunderstood. I will go and see it anyway, but my wife does not want to go.

[Trafalgar]

ETA: Also, from a real-world science perspective, what the devil is a 'Black Sun'? It's no spoiler , I think, to note that part of the movie takes place on the Harkonnen home world of Giedi Prime. It is shot entirely in infrared, so everything is gray-scale, black-and-white. This is why the Harkonnens like so much black in the movie -- it's an outgrowth of their environment. It's also why they're looters and slavers; Giedi Prime cannot sustain itself.

I assume a Black Sun would be like a "black light". So maybe the entire planet is like some hippy college dorm room in the nineties.

[pendell]

I assume a Black Sun would be like a "black light". So maybe the entire planet is like some hippy college dorm room in the nineties.

Comment seen on the Reddit Astronomy group

Geidi Prime's home star is an actually existing star, Ophiuchi B (though there are technically several stars with that name with different numbers and letters in front of it, as that is the name of the constellation). It's a K dwarf, so a lot more of its total energy output is in the red and infrared bands than for a hotter star. I imagine the people on Giedi Prime may use implants or contact lenses to be better able to see in infrared - but as the human brain cannot just "invent" a new color, as far as we know, it's just shown as black and white. At least that would make sense to me. The Harkonnens and their people are also extremely pale, the lack of many high-energy/UV photons from their home star probably led to their genes for melanin production to go lose function over time as they need to use all available UV for Vitamin D production.

Nu Ophichi B is indeed a real star with a gas giant exoplanet orbiting 1.76 AU out. Would that make Giedi Prime a moon of the gas giant? It would be both dark and cold if inhabitable at all, though I suppose if you could generate a thick enough atmosphere that might make up for the greater solar distance and the cooler sun. That would also explain why Giedi Prime is an industrial planet; emissions which raise the temperature of the planet are a feature , not a bug, on their world, unlike the little blue planet orbiting Sol.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[JellyPooga]

As a fan of The Book (yes, the one and only Book; I'm that kind of fan) and having been thoroughly enamoured by Part 1, Dune: Part II frankly disappointed me.
- Cinematography was great.
- Soundtrack was great.
- Acting was...acceptable. A little overly dramatic, in my opinion, but it's a dramatic kind of narrative. It missed some potential subtlety in places, but on the whole the acting was fine.
- Plot & Characters...yeah...then there was the plot and characters...

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The Timeline: Makes no sense. Turning years into months does not allow sufficient suspension of disbelief for the events that transpire to be in any way believable. We're talking about the subversion of a culture of millions to believe in a messianic figure to the point they'll risk a plan that has been decades in the making. Months simply will not do.

Lady Jessica: Marginalised as a character even further from the weakness portrayed in Part I. I always read Jessica as strong and in control, even in the face of the uncertain situations she finds herself in (Pauls awakening, being forced into becoming Reverend Mother, being an outsider in an unfamiliar society, Alia's strangeness, etc.). Film Part I put her in a position of being too reactive and uncertain; emotional even. Part II went even further so as to remove any kind of her own agency; being influenced by the Fremen Reverend Mothers and/or Alia, buying into the Progenita Missionara to the exclusion of her own ties to the ideals of the Atreides/Paul, etc.

Chani: Relegated from supportive life partner, mother of Pauls child, priestess, friend to and confidant of Lady Jessica and a generally quite interesting character to "stroppy love interest".

Alia: Whilst not a critical character to the plot, per se, an interesting one nonetheless. I can understand her de facto removal, even if I don't like it (a bit of a Bombadil, if you will).

Thufir Hawatt & The Harkonnens: Some argue his role in the narrative is minor, but I disagree. He is critical to the representation of the Harkonnen ideology and identity. Dune II portrays the Harkonnens as little more than generic, barbaric bad guys with little in the way of subtlety or even intelligence, which couldn't be farther from their representation in the book. It's an insult to the audience to have them believe the Harkonnens even be considered as viable stewards of the universes single most valuable planet without some kind of evidence of how or why they became such a prominent House. Including Feyd Rautha's arena scene in the film, whilst barely touching on the manoeuvring that occurred around it and the relevance it has in the book ("plans within plans") was just a waste of run time. Compare the "just another duel" scene in the film to the book, in which Herbert outlines the Harkonnen use of addiction, drugs, poison and authority to highlight their mode of "corruption begets power" as a direct comparison to the Atreides mode of "loyalty breeds power". The way Thufir behaves with the Baron and Feyd lies in stark contrast to his faithful service to Duke Leto.

The Fremen: The book was as much an exploration of Fremen culture as it compares to that of the Great Houses as it was a story about two Houses fighting for control of the Spice. We get none of this in the film. Not their hospitality, death or marriage traditions, not their almost latent psychic connection as a result of their high-spice diet, not the trippy rave parties they have when a Reverend Mother transmutes the Water of Life, not the way they live in any way, really. All of which were important in guiding the the child Atreides, Paul into becoming the adult Fremen, Mua'dib. The how and why of the Fremen are instrumental to the "rise of the ubermensch" story that Paul experiences. Mention of what the spice means to their culture and how integral it is to their everyday life is entirely omitted, not to mention the vast wealth it affords them to literally buy The Guild's silence to conceal their plan for Arrakis. The Fremen are the sleeper faction of the book, a secret powerhouse that none but a few even suspect of having their level of training and sophistication, technologically, strategically and politically, but in the film are little more than a religious group that's bigger than expected.

The Guild: Entirely absent. Whilst also largely absent in the book in terms of characters or direct interaction, their presence is nonetheless so relevant to the narrative that they influence the actions of and are at least mentioned by every faction.

I could go on about further aspects that disappointed me and it surprises me to read so much praise for the film, both from those new to Dune and those that claim to be fans of the book and/or franchise. Right, now I've vented that, I'm off to go enjoy reading one of, if not the single best sci-fi novel I've ever had the pleasure of reading.

[Catullus64]

As a fan of The Book (yes, the one and only Book; I'm that kind of fan) and having been thoroughly enamoured by Part 1, Dune: Part II frankly disappointed me.

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Lady Jessica: Marginalised as a character even further from the weakness portrayed in Part I. I always read Jessica as strong and in control, even in the face of the uncertain situations she finds herself in (Pauls awakening, being forced into becoming Reverend Mother, being an outsider in an unfamiliar society, Alia's strangeness, etc.). Film Part I put her in a position of being too reactive and uncertain; emotional even. Part II went even further so as to remove any kind of her own agency; being influenced by the Fremen Reverend Mothers and/or Alia, buying into the Progenita Missionara to the exclusion of her own ties to the ideals of the Atreides/Paul, etc.

Chani: Relegated from supportive life partner, mother of Pauls child, priestess, friend to and confidant of Lady Jessica and a generally quite interesting character to "stroppy love interest".

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I agree with you on the diminishment of Jessica as a character, but I feel your characterization of Chani, both in the book and in this movie, is pretty off, which matters because it ties in very directly with why Jessica is so different here.

Chani, in the book, is a pretty passive character; her most meaningful contributions to the plot are as mother to Leto and Ghanima, and as a tool that the conspirators try to use to manipulate Paul. That doesn't make her unimportant to the story (story =/= plot, after all) or lacking in characterization, but her choices don't really shape the narrative in any significant way. It works fine in the book, but I don't think that characterization would have worked very well for the themes and ideas the filmmakers have chosen to emphasize.

Chani in the film is very, very different, but characterizing her as just "stroppy love interest" seems to me like a failure to engage with the themes of the film. Chani is persistently framed by the film as the voice of Fremen opposition to Paul's ascendency, someone who realizes, correctly, that Paul's ascendancy as a messiah will not liberate the Fremen, and will instead turn them into the tools of a despotic regime.

I love the novel Dune to pieces, but there are elements of its social and political themes that have not aged all that well. In particular, it is a book that critiques colonial and religious exploitation, but it mostly centers the perspectives and interior monologue of the people doing the exploiting, rather than the exploited. If the films are to seriously carry those themes forward into the modern day, having a Fremen character who actually gives voice to the tragedy and evil of Paul's actions is pretty important. (Especially since Paul's deep inner conflict and ultimate powerlessness are harder to convey in film language.) Since you say you're off to re-read the book, count how many times a the interior monologue of a Fremen character is heard (spoiler: Unless you count Kynes, it's basically none.)

If you assume that such a Fremen character is necessary, Chani is a natural pick; her antipathy towards what Paul represents, contrasted against her love for Paul as an individual, is richly tragic. And if further films go where the books do plot-wise, these tragic themes will really come to a head: her love for Paul results in her giving birth to an even worse despot.

I do feel that Jessica's more simplistic treatment in the film is an unfortunate casualty of this change, but it still makes a certain narrative sense: she is, after all, largely responsible for a lot of what happens. She's a deeply morally ambiguous figure, but the book softens this by focusing so much on her guilt and conflict over the part she plays in the Jihad. Here, we feel the weight of what Jessica does, because she is actually presented as a dangerous and sinister figure.

[pendell]

A

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The Timeline: Makes no sense. Turning years into months does not allow sufficient suspension of disbelief for the events that transpire to be in any way believable. We're talking about the subversion of a culture of millions to believe in a messianic figure to the point they'll risk a plan that has been decades in the making. Months simply will not do.

Lady Jessica: Marginalised as a character even further from the weakness portrayed in Part I. I always read Jessica as strong and in control, even in the face of the uncertain situations she finds herself in (Pauls awakening, being forced into becoming Reverend Mother, being an outsider in an unfamiliar society, Alia's strangeness, etc.). Film Part I put her in a position of being too reactive and uncertain; emotional even. Part II went even further so as to remove any kind of her own agency; being influenced by the Fremen Reverend Mothers and/or Alia, buying into the Progenita Missionara to the exclusion of her own ties to the ideals of the Atreides/Paul, etc.

Chani: Relegated from supportive life partner, mother of Pauls child, priestess, friend to and confidant of Lady Jessica and a generally quite interesting character to "stroppy love interest".

Alia: Whilst not a critical character to the plot, per se, an interesting one nonetheless. I can understand her de facto removal, even if I don't like it (a bit of a Bombadil, if you will).

Thufir Hawatt & The Harkonnens: Some argue his role in the narrative is minor, but I disagree. He is critical to the representation of the Harkonnen ideology and identity. Dune II portrays the Harkonnens as little more than generic, barbaric bad guys with little in the way of subtlety or even intelligence, which couldn't be farther from their representation in the book. It's an insult to the audience to have them believe the Harkonnens even be considered as viable stewards of the universes single most valuable planet without some kind of evidence of how or why they became such a prominent House. Including Feyd Rautha's arena scene in the film, whilst barely touching on the manoeuvring that occurred around it and the relevance it has in the book ("plans within plans") was just a waste of run time. Compare the "just another duel" scene in the film to the book, in which Herbert outlines the Harkonnen use of addiction, drugs, poison and authority to highlight their mode of "corruption begets power" as a direct comparison to the Atreides mode of "loyalty breeds power". The way Thufir behaves with the Baron and Feyd lies in stark contrast to his faithful service to Duke Leto.

The Fremen: The book was as much an exploration of Fremen culture as it compares to that of the Great Houses as it was a story about two Houses fighting for control of the Spice. We get none of this in the film. Not their hospitality, death or marriage traditions, not their almost latent psychic connection as a result of their high-spice diet, not the trippy rave parties they have when a Reverend Mother transmutes the Water of Life, not the way they live in any way, really. All of which were important in guiding the the child Atreides, Paul into becoming the adult Fremen, Mua'dib. The how and why of the Fremen are instrumental to the "rise of the ubermensch" story that Paul experiences. Mention of what the spice means to their culture and how integral it is to their everyday life is entirely omitted, not to mention the vast wealth it affords them to literally buy The Guild's silence to conceal their plan for Arrakis. The Fremen are the sleeper faction of the book, a secret powerhouse that none but a few even suspect of having their level of training and sophistication, technologically, strategically and politically, but in the film are little more than a religious group that's bigger than expected.

The Guild: Entirely absent. Whilst also largely absent in the book in terms of characters or direct interaction, their presence is nonetheless so relevant to the narrative that they influence the actions of and are at least mentioned by every faction.

I could go on about further aspects that disappointed me and it surprises me to read so much praise for the film, both from those new to Dune and those that claim to be fans of the book and/or franchise. Right, now I've vented that, I'm off to go enjoy reading one of, if not the single best sci-fi novel I've ever had the pleasure of reading.

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Can't agree on the Harkonnens. Much of the Harkonnens we see are led by Rabban, who is described by his own uncle as a "muscle-minded tank brain", whose sole reason for governing Arrakis is to be such a tyrant that the people praise Feyd-Ruatha to the skies when Vladimir "discovers" Rabban's manifest inability to govern, then replaces him with Vladimir's far-more-competent heir. Feyd-Ruatha IS another Kweisatz Haderach candidate, after all. He's a shadowy version of Paul -- what Paul would be if he were raised by dear old Grandfather Vlad instead of by Duke Leto.

Vladimir Harkonnen himself , in the book, is shown to be deviously intelligent and skilled in the intrigues of the Imperial Palace but completely out of his depth on Arrakis. At no point in the second half of the book does he show any real insight or skill in dealing with the Fremen, for the simple reason he considers them beneath his notice.

Thufir Hawat and the Guild are regrettable absences -- In fact Villanueve himself is on record as regretting that particular cut , but the movie was already too long. Given it clocks in at just under three hours , I can't really argue with that call.

Realistically, they cut a lot of stuff from the book but I think this is as good a cinematic adaptation of the story as we're going to get.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[JellyPooga]

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Chani, in the book, is a pretty passive character; her most meaningful contributions to the plot are as mother to Leto and Ghanima...
[snip]
...Chani is persistently framed by the film as the voice of Fremen opposition to Paul's ascendency, someone who realizes, correctly, that Paul's ascendancy as a messiah will not liberate the Fremen, and will instead turn them into the tools of a despotic regime.

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I think this highlights why I disliked the films treatment of Chani. In the book, she is Pauls closest confidant, the literal well (Sihaya) from which he draws strength and in part, the reason he's able to ground himself in the face of his prophetic vision and at least attempt to guide his fate away from the Jihad. For her to misunderstand Paul in any way misrepresents her character intensely, so for her to run off in a strop because he chose a political marriage (among other things, granted) felt like a sucker punch. Where the book deals in such themes, Paul and Chani represent an aspect of devotional love that mirrors that of Leto and Jessica (both in their politically motivated beginnings as well as how they developed emotionally) and the Atreides in general, highlighting the strength, will and autonomy that can be born of such, vs. other relationships a person might make, such as the manipulation of people/bloodlines displayed by the Bene Gesserit or the political manoeuverings of the Emperor and Great Houses, for example. Motive is a massive theme of the book, perhaps even THE theme, and his relationship with Chani is an intensely important part of Pauls character and the choices he makes; to coin the phrase; it's not her, it's him i.e. what she represents to Paul and why is what makes her character important or meaningful, not what she does in terms of deeds.

To turn that core aspect on its head and dump the doubts of the Fremen as a whole, regarding Paul, his motives and his veracity as the Lisan al'Gaib, feels disingenuous to her character and what she is supposed to represent to him. I can understand that those doubts need to be voiced by a character in the film, particularly to contrast their choice to highlight Stilgars' hero worship of Paul, but it shouldn't be at the cost of as prominent a character as Chani. Harah, Jamis' widow, would (and in the book, does) provide the perfect voice for this; someone intrinsically linked/tied to Paul by his introduction to the true Fremen culture, who has legitimate reason to dislike/distrust him, but through her contact with him comes to understand him as he learns to understand her/them. It's basically her entire purpose for existing in the book and she could easily have been introduced in the film too.

As much as I appreciated the films cinematography, a little less time spent on flippy-spinny fight scenes, explosions and shots of vibrating sand, and a little more time spent on actually developing characters and their interactions to make them feel more genuine or book/lore accurate might not have gone amiss. The run time felt very padded, which in a 3hr film is not something a film-maker should really be affording themselves, IMO.

[Catullus64]

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I think this highlights why I disliked the films treatment of Chani. In the book, she is Pauls closest confidant, the literal well (Sihaya) from which he draws strength and in part, the reason he's able to ground himself in the face of his prophetic vision and at least attempt to guide his fate away from the Jihad. For her to misunderstand Paul in any way misrepresents her character intensely, so for her to run off in a strop because he chose a political marriage (among other things, granted) felt like a sucker punch. Where the book deals in such themes, Paul and Chani represent an aspect of devotional love that mirrors that of Leto and Jessica (both in their politically motivated beginnings as well as how they developed emotionally) and the Atreides in general, highlighting the strength, will and autonomy that can be born of such, vs. other relationships a person might make, such as the manipulation of people/bloodlines displayed by the Bene Gesserit or the political manoeuverings of the Emperor and Great Houses, for example. Motive is a massive theme of the book, perhaps even THE theme, and his relationship with Chani is an intensely important part of Pauls character and the choices he makes; to coin the phrase; it's not her, it's him i.e. what she represents to Paul and why is what makes her character important or meaningful, not what she does in terms of deeds.

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I am somewhat sympathetic to this complaint, even if I disagree overall. I will say that while I overall like the new role Chani plays in the film, I may not be 100% onboard with how Zendaya realizes it; the balance is a little too much towards suspicion and distrust rather than warmth and understanding. Maybe reading too much into it, but I feel like it's part of a larger disease in action films & tv where the writers think that female characters can only convey strength by being cold and aggressive.

You have a much rosier perspective on the relationships in Dune than I do. I agree that motivation, and the personal relationships between the characters are central to the themes of the story, but another key part is that those personal motivations have disastrous consequences. Jessica's decision, borne of love for Leto, to bear him a son indirectly unleashes chaos on the galaxy. Her decision, for Paul's safety, to embrace her Reverend Mother role among the Fremen, makes things even worse. Paul's love for Chani results in humanity being subject to three thousand years of despotism. Jessica sarcastically highlights this cyclical pattern with the final line of the book: "We who bear the name of concubine, history will call us wives."

I think the film is iterating on that theme with Chani: her love for Paul causes her to follow him against her better judgement, enabling his rise to power which will doom the galaxy. I think that's why the first film added sequences in which Paul sees himself dying at Chani's hands; because she could have chosen otherwise. That, to me, is much more powerful. Her anger and betrayal, highlighted by the final shot of the film, seem to me to be only tangentially connected to Paul's marriage to Irulan, and more about her people being reduced to fanatics at the hands of the man she loves. Having her be uncomplicatedly supportive of Paul, as she is in the books, would have deeply undercut the tragedy of Paul's actions.

There are a lot of themes in Dune, and I think the film has wisely chosen to focus on the ones I just described. I think different choices, along the lines of what you value, could have also produced a good film, but one that I suspect would have resonated less with a general audience.

[Eurus]

Saw this the other day, and... I don't think I liked it as much as the first one, and I think like 80% of that comes from the action scenes. There were parts I liked a lot, and I really enjoyed most of the character-driven moments, but a lot of the action just did not work for me, and there was a lot that I felt was missing, even though I haven't read the books so I don't know what specifically was left out.

Spoiler: A very disorganized list

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A lot of the action scenes, especially later in the movie, felt pretty weak to me. I get that the Fremen are supposed to be the scariest fighters around, but they steamroll everything so effortlessly that it actually weakened the ending for me; the Great Houses show up and I couldn't help but think "so?" Like, what are they going to do? Land on the ground, pull out swords, and get mauled like everyone else?

Feyd-Rautha doesn't get enough screen time or cool moments to be an interesting or intimidating villain. His main accomplishments are killing three dudes in an arena, two of them being drugged, and then bombing the sietches in a way that mostly just made me confused as to why they didn't do that sooner. Didn't feel like he was significant enough to deserve the final fight. Yes, he's very creepy and evil, but how does that make him different from every other Harkonnen we've seen so far? They tell us that he's smart, but they don't put in the work to show it.

The Fremen presumably have, like, actual cities and industries somewhere? But we don't really get to see that, and I think that hurts the vibe a lot. The sietches look more like big sepulchral temples or something rather than somewhere anyone actually lives. Actually, it feels like we only see the Fremen culture in a religious or war-fighting context. I get that those are big aspects of their culture, but come on, it's an entire planet of people. There's got to be more to them than that.

...The Fremen don't use shields. The Harkonnens know the Fremen don't use shields, because they've been fighting them for ages. The Harkonnens apparently have shielded ornithopters with machine guns, and one of them comes pretty close to killing Paul. Maybe go all-in on those? Instead of having foot soldiers slowly patrol around your giant harvester robots, waiting to get stabbed...

Look, I get that the setting is designed to make swords the weapon of choice. So the Sardaukar obviously use swords. And they're in unfamiliar territory and unable to use shields of their own, so they're at a big disadvantage. But can't they at least... fight in formation, or something? Watching them just kind of run across the sand in a disorganized mass and get cut down in seconds was downright comical. Are they supposed to not be taken seriously as a threat...?


Honestly, I have no idea if these complaints are reasonable. Paul's unstoppable, possibly predestined rise to power and the fact that the Fremen are just that much stronger than the decadent Empire may be the entire point. But there's an awful lot of time and budget put into these battle scenes... If the Fremen are supposed to be unstoppable, maybe spend less time showing me faceless soldiers getting stabbed in sandstorms and more time making me care about the Fremen as a people, and Feyd and the Emperor as villains.

[Ionathus]

Speaking as a very casual Dune fan (I read the original novel once in my teens and never picked up a sequel), I enjoyed it a lot.

Part I was visually stunning but was (predictably) almost entirely setup. Part II gave me the payoff I needed and then some — there were so many moments that had me very, very excited. A real thrill to watch in theatres, even if I did need to bring earplugs. My wife and I joked about whether or not there would be more moments of “high, ethereal female vocals” or moments of the sound going “WAAAAAAAAAA”. Guess which one won out

I have very few complaints about the changes they made. Some things work better in novel format than they do on the big screen. Some plot elements are a product of their time and wouldn’t play as well to a modern audience. Matching the tone and the themes of a work is far more important to me, and I felt this film did that excellently.

Also, saw someone else upthread saying Chalamet didn’t sell the angry/scary parts for them — I actually had the opposite reaction, where he really surprised me with his intensity as the story’s climax approached and he leaned into the Mahdi role. His scene at the Southern meeting in particular really spooked me, honestly. And his sense of resignation at the very end gave me some real chills.

[Dr.Samurai]

I found the sequel to be disappointing. It actually felt to me to be even more setup than the first one.

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Part 1 at least had the fall of House Atreides to frame the setup. Part 2 felt like a lot of... I don't know, talking, thinking, etc. The action wasn't really there for me.

I have to second the sentiments about Jessica's and Chani's portrayals. Wasn't crazy about the changes. I may just be tired of all the depictions of angry disgruntled frustrated protags in cinema these days, but more than that, Chani's portrayal makes me wonder why these two are in love and how they will commit to each other in the future. We're talking about a fundamental difference of opinion here, with billions of lives at stake, and they've chosen Chani and Paul to take opposite sides of this conflict. Seems like a strange choice to me. They both obviously care very deeply, so not sure how to reconcile that with "love".

I don't recall much from the books at this point but seems to me the movies will have Paul realize he is motivated by revenge, and he will have a change of heart, enough to reconcile with Chani, but by then it will be too late and they will have to navigate/lead the holy war together.

Christopher Walken was an unfortunate casting decision.

[Tyndmyr]

Overall, I enjoyed it. I'm not sure I enjoyed it quite as much as the first one, but it was still a fun watch, and it at least felt true enough to the spirit of Dune.

Random thoughts:
1. It probably could have used more explanation of the spacing guild and atomics up front. These are poorly explained/foreshadowed, and while I know these things, having read the books, it strikes me as generally a not great way to convey the politics of the situation to first time viewers. The value of spice to the Empire isn't wholly explained, and that drives literally everything, including the climax of the film.

2. I don't mind the changes to Chani. I do not recall her as being a massive personality in the books. Her expanded role in this gives a bit more human grounding to the grand politics, and that's probably a good change.

3. I do wish they'd kept it as "Jihad" instead of "Holy War." Yes, yes, Jihad is a type of holy war, but as is often the case with loan words, they carry some significant emotional weight. In this particular case, I think the cultural influences here for the book are extremely relevant to the story being told, and while the change is probably less controversial/risky for general audiences, it loses something in the generalization.

4. I did wonder about the Fremen industrial base myself. We do see quite a lot of tech, and it's sort of taken for granted, but their culture doesn't really seem to emphasize that. Doesn't need to be a major element, but I suppose it'd be nice to see at least in passing.

5. I neither love nor hate Chalamet. He seems to be fine in this role, but I don't particularly care about him as an actor one way or the other. I guess folks find him controversial? This also came up with the recent Charlie and the Chocolate Factory prequel, but I'm not sure I get why he's controversial.

[Sivarias]

I dont think they can keep Jihad in a post 9/11 world, even if we are past the Jingoism counterlash here in America.

[Sholos]

Saw this the other day, and... I don't think I liked it as much as the first one, and I think like 80% of that comes from the action scenes. There were parts I liked a lot, and I really enjoyed most of the character-driven moments, but a lot of the action just did not work for me, and there was a lot that I felt was missing, even though I haven't read the books so I don't know what specifically was left out.

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A lot of the action scenes, especially later in the movie, felt pretty weak to me. I get that the Fremen are supposed to be the scariest fighters around, but they steamroll everything so effortlessly that it actually weakened the ending for me; the Great Houses show up and I couldn't help but think "so?" Like, what are they going to do? Land on the ground, pull out swords, and get mauled like everyone else?

Feyd-Rautha doesn't get enough screen time or cool moments to be an interesting or intimidating villain. His main accomplishments are killing three dudes in an arena, two of them being drugged, and then bombing the sietches in a way that mostly just made me confused as to why they didn't do that sooner. Didn't feel like he was significant enough to deserve the final fight. Yes, he's very creepy and evil, but how does that make him different from every other Harkonnen we've seen so far? They tell us that he's smart, but they don't put in the work to show it.

The Fremen presumably have, like, actual cities and industries somewhere? But we don't really get to see that, and I think that hurts the vibe a lot. The sietches look more like big sepulchral temples or something rather than somewhere anyone actually lives. Actually, it feels like we only see the Fremen culture in a religious or war-fighting context. I get that those are big aspects of their culture, but come on, it's an entire planet of people. There's got to be more to them than that.

...The Fremen don't use shields. The Harkonnens know the Fremen don't use shields, because they've been fighting them for ages. The Harkonnens apparently have shielded ornithopters with machine guns, and one of them comes pretty close to killing Paul. Maybe go all-in on those? Instead of having foot soldiers slowly patrol around your giant harvester robots, waiting to get stabbed...

Look, I get that the setting is designed to make swords the weapon of choice. So the Sardaukar obviously use swords. And they're in unfamiliar territory and unable to use shields of their own, so they're at a big disadvantage. But can't they at least... fight in formation, or something? Watching them just kind of run across the sand in a disorganized mass and get cut down in seconds was downright comical. Are they supposed to not be taken seriously as a threat...?


Honestly, I have no idea if these complaints are reasonable. Paul's unstoppable, possibly predestined rise to power and the fact that the Fremen are just that much stronger than the decadent Empire may be the entire point. But there's an awful lot of time and budget put into these battle scenes... If the Fremen are supposed to be unstoppable, maybe spend less time showing me faceless soldiers getting stabbed in sandstorms and more time making me care about the Fremen as a people, and Feyd and the Emperor as villains.

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In regards to the Fremen vs the Sardukar, yes, there really is supposed to be that large a skill difference. In the book, the Fremen note the Sardukar as especially skilled warriors because they "almost" killed one of the team. The Sardukar are leagues above everyone else in the galaxy.

[KorvinStarmast]

I liked it but it was too long. Pacing issues.
Muad' Dib's mom, she's got it goin' on!

I liked the worm piss scenes. Pretty color blue.

The grey tone stuff for the Harkonnen's was IMO an artistic error.

The emperor was well played. His daughter ... I am guessing she'll be in the next movie?

[Ionathus]

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...Chani's portrayal makes me wonder why these two are in love and how they will commit to each other in the future. We're talking about a fundamental difference of opinion here, with billions of lives at stake, and they've chosen Chani and Paul to take opposite sides of this conflict. Seems like a strange choice to me. They both obviously care very deeply, so not sure how to reconcile that with "love".

I don't recall much from the books at this point but seems to me the movies will have Paul realize he is motivated by revenge, and he will have a change of heart, enough to reconcile with Chani, but by then it will be too late and they will have to navigate/lead the holy war together.

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I didn't have a problem with Chani's motivation and her willingness to work with Paul. To me, it seems clear that she starts out thinking he's another clueless offworlder, and then he wins her over with both his skills and his outlook. She starts to believe that their goals align, even if some of his behavior (and especially his mom's behavior) is troublesome. But like many tenuous alliances, she thinks that the benefits outweigh the positives, and that "she can handle it" if he gets out of hand.

Her conflicted feelings keep getting stronger, but she shuts them down and tries to play along. She still thinks she can help steer Paul along the right path. By the time he drinks the Water of Life, she realizes that it's too late and Paul is fully out of her influence now. But she can still hope that when the chips are down, he'll do the right thing. And then he doesn't.

That's how I interpreted Chani's arc in this film. She loves Paul but is also worried about him and his actions, so her conflicted feelings justify her contradictory behavior in my mind. But I know that's a subjective thing and if the chemistry/storytelling didn't work for you, it just didn't work.

Bigger picture: some people here and elsewhere seem to not like Chani's characterization because they prefer the role she takes in the book: a supporter and childbearer for Paul. I thought she was pretty bland in the book, though, and I liked the extra depth she gets here as a counterpoint and more active voice of the Fremen.

Christopher Walken was an unfortunate casting decision.

Can I ask why? I thought he was great and don't understand what's unfortunate.

[J-H]

I finally got to see it tonight, after skipping all trailers and avoiding this thread and any and all spoilers. I'm assuming that this thread is OK to post in without spoiler tags... if not, I'll go back and add some after reading.

Overall, it was a mostly good continuation of the first part, and most of their decisions were reasonably good. However, eliminating the 2-3 year timeskip greatly hurt certain plot points and was part of the reason that the last 5 minutes of the movie screwed up the ending, set them up for a lot of extra work to get Children of Dune going, and ended the movie on a negative note.

Casting: Generally okay, with the glaring exception of the Imperial family. Christopher Walken is too old, too low-energy, and too frail-looking to be a believable Sublime Padishah Emperor. He asserts no dominance, has nearly no imperial court apparatus around him to act as a backup (Baron Harkonnen has more minions!) and generally is not believable. Florence Pugh doesn't look like a princess. Princesses, whether born pretty, ugly, or average, are generally dressed to show wealth, accent what beauty they have, and act as an advertisement for their house's wealth and glory (Princes do the same, but usually with military uniforms, medals, and swords instead of hairstyles and jewelry). Instead, she gets short hair worn slicked back and close and basic robes that you might see on a non-noble servant. From the books, there is every indication that House Corinno and the rest of the Imperial apparatus is rich, somewhat decadent, etc. Her being a flat ascetic princess who doesn't dress like one just doesn't fit, even if she has a scholarly bent (which we don't see reflected by her having a library or anything except a weird chair and a desk where she dictates diary entries sort of like in the book).

The extended scene on Giedi Prime was cinematographically (?) interesting, being essentially all in greyscale. The "black sun" is I guess more of a "black-light" sun? Not sure how that works, but it was neat. I get the feeling that the Harkonnen crowds are very much like certain hermit kingdoms in real life/history, where you're expected to show great enthusiasm and support, or else. They did miss a trick by forgetting to have the non-drugged Atreides fighter use his knife to carve the Atreides logo onto his chest or shoulder like in the book. That was one of the tip-offs that he was a serious threat.
Apparently they go through lots of servants/minions, plus some "oh, feed the minions dead bodies if they're hungry." Of course, the filmmakers also had to substitute in some new content for the stuff from the book that I don't think we want to see on screen in terms of how the Baron and his family were into various exploitative non-consensual perversions. The hairless look is very distinctive, although it got old after a while, as did "everyone has black teeth because it's our style." Maybe it's supposed to be a mutation. Clearly Evil has a distinctive look, eh?
The seduction of Feyd-Rautha was well-done. Leaving out Count Fenring was a good choice in terms of simplifying things, although eliminating the squick of "the Bene Gesserit have people commit adultery when convenient" makes them a little less objectionable than they are.

I don't recall the Fremen using lasguns so extensively, but we don't get a ton of detail in the books about how they do their fighting, so it fits. The hover-belts continue to be fun and well-done. The Harkonnen troops are clearly several steps down the quality ladder from the Sardaukar, although the latter go to swords too quickly vs. their guns, though.

The sandworm attack on the Emperor was pretty cool, although obviously consolidated.
The inter-Freeman loyalty winning, etc., was mostly done well. Most of the choice quotes from the book were there, with the exception of "It is the way." "Ways change!" argument.

Important people don't wear stillsuits because we have to see their faces. In general, I saw a lot less stillsuit wearing than I expected. Hard to act if your face isn't visible, so this is understandable and common.

The duel with Feyd-Rautha was nicely physical (punches, kicks, throws, scrambling around). I understand why they left off the flip-out needle, although leaving the bit about the Emperor's blade being poisoned and Paul neutralizing it would have been nice.

The stuff I really didn't like:
-Cutting the timeskip means Paul and Chani's relationship isn't as developed/strong, and they don't have kids (although we never see Leto II).
-No timeskip means Alia is still in the womb. We missed out on a two year old being the Atreides Gom Jabbar, cheerfully murdering her grandfather, and then scaring Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohaim nearly out of her wits. I guess when I type it it seems a bit creepy, but in the book it was pretty cool.
-The entire strategic battle stuff got compressed into...months? I had no sense of how many weeks or months passed between the first and last scene. This is common in movies.
-In the book, the Great Houses are all present, as is most of the Imperial Court, to witness the duel and what happens. In the movie, the Emperor brings one ship, has his guys stand around in ranks in the sun in the desert doing nothing until they are attacked, and then when Paul "wins" the great houses just say "no" and he sends infantry up in troop carriers to take on what was previously described as the warfleets of seven great houses. This plan was not approved by a five year old.
-The Spacing Guild is entirely not present. They were a major part of the negotiations over spice (why nukes? why not just "water of life reaction?" seriously, it takes like 20 seconds to explain) and are part of why the Emperor's little throneroom seems unserious. Nobody's there but the Emperor, his guards, and a few nobody minions with weird collars. I think one or both of the other adaptations did this much better.
-The Paul/Chani relationship with some more distrust is an understandable choice, although it also leaves him without any close emotional support (as he can't trust his mother, particularly in this adaptation where she is more on The Side of What Must Happen instead of Paul's side). However, they really screwed up the ending. In the book, Jessica is talking to Chani, and the novel ends with a line to the effect of "History will remember us as we really are, as wives." Instead, Chani's running off into the desert, there's no indication that Paul isn't planning to have babies with Irulan, and I have no idea what the plan is to get from here to Leto II(#2) and Ghanima. This seems like pointless drama BS, like you'd get in a TV serial that needed to stretch from 17 episodes to 20. Maybe Children of Dune is going to pick up right where Dune II leaves off, and we get 30 minutes of Solving Relationship Drama with the Superpower of Actually Talking?

IDK. It was pretty good up until the Emperor landed. After that it was kind of dumb and what little I recall says the other adaptations were better except for the knife-fight. They didn't stick the landing.

[Eldan]

The Atreides arena fighter is apprently the movie's fight choreographer. He was also in the first movie in the background a few times. Someone said he actually does have an Atreides eagle carved into his arm, but I looked for it and didn't see it.

Oh, and the teeth are black because the scene is shot in infrared, so dead bodyparts like teeth show up as black, not because they are stained in some way.

[J-H]

Neat. There were a couple of points in that duel where I thought I was seeing some tai chi fast hands, but of course at speed it's hard to tell. I think doing the slow-down drama shots would have taken away from the fights.

They also missed a moment by having Paul do his duel with Feyd-Rautha with some kind of metal knife instead of just using a milky-white crysknife.

[pendell]

I finally got to see it tonight, after skipping all trailers and avoiding this thread and any and all spoilers. I'm assuming that this thread is OK to post in without spoiler tags... if not, I'll go back and add some after reading.

Mostly agree but some comments.

Casting: Generally okay, with the glaring exception of the Imperial family. Christopher Walken is too old, too low-energy, and too frail-looking to be a believable Sublime Padishah Emperor. He asserts no dominance, has nearly no imperial court apparatus around him to act as a backup (Baron Harkonnen has more minions!) and generally is not believable.

On the contrary, what we're supposed to take away from this interpretation of Dune is that the Corrino family, after ten thousand years of rule, is on its last legs. The last emperor does not have any male children (traditionally, not a sign of virility even though it's the Bene Gesserit doing this) and, in the books, is appointing many officers to ceremonial ranks, also a sign of decline in this kind of story; the army of a rising empire is made up of young men in plain uniforms who are interested in fighting. The army of an empire in decline has a lot of bemedalled and richly uniformed buffoons who either command no soldiers or shouldn't, a very top-heavy empire where the HQ staff eat up all the resources and the actual fighters are poorly led.

It's clear in the movie that the next Emperor is going to be an Atreides or a Harkonnen because the existing royal line is played out, so the BG intend to fold those genes, by way of Princess Irulan, into the new Imperial line in continuation of their breeding program. For the next Emperor, Gaius Mohiam chooses Feyd-Ruatha Harkonnen over Paul Atreides, so she manipulates the Emperor into allying with House Harkonnen to destroy Atreides and sends the Lady Fenring to gain control over Feyd-Ruatha.

Why?

My belief is it is precisely because the Harkonnens are thugs given over to their vices while Leto Atreides is a self-controlled, honorable man. Because Leto is self-controlled, he cannot be blackmailed, cannot be controlled by his vices, cannot be addicted to drugs, is immune to most forms of BG manipulation and control which closely resembles the Harkonnen's own methods -- to not trust good intentions or honor but to seek levers over their political pawns which cannot be defeated. He is, in other words, a loose cannon from the BG perspective. By contrast, the Harkonnens are two-legged beasts, but precisely because they are ruled by their appetites, they can be ruled by those who have power over those same appetities. Feyd-Ruatha has a sexual appetite, for example, and Fenring is able to both whet this and manipulate it to her ends. He also has an appetite for violence, and the BG can sate that by directing it to their ends.

This is why I view Paul as, not the villain of Dune 2, but it's anti-hero. An anti-hero, because at the end of the story he has adopted Harkonnen methods (for example, leaving his grandfather's body to be eaten by animals, a brutality the Harkonnens would have understood and approved of, if they were the ones doing it). But not a villain, because the alternative to Paul's action is not the Golden Path but the rule of Feyd-Ruatha. The galaxy-wide war he feared would have still happened, but it would have been waged by the Harkonnens and there would be no Golden Path at the end of it, simply extinction.

Florence Pugh doesn't look like a princess. Princesses, whether born pretty, ugly, or average, are generally dressed to show wealth, accent what beauty they have, and act as an advertisement for their house's wealth and glory (Princes do the same, but usually with military uniforms, medals, and swords instead of hairstyles and jewelry). Instead, she gets short hair worn slicked back and close and basic robes that you might see on a non-noble servant.

She's a Bene Gesserit. Her outfit has the same impact in their world that a tall pointy hat and a staff would in a more traditional fantasy world. It demonstrates the power of the Emperor far more effectively to have a daughter skilled in those arts than if she wore pretty clothes and baubles.

-Cutting the timeskip means Paul and Chani's relationship isn't as developed/strong, and they don't have kids (although we never see Leto II).

Not on camera, but they did have a sex scene or two. IF Dune Messiah is made, I think we will find that Chani is pregnant and comes back. It's not at all uncommon in the real world for divorced parents of radically different backgrounds to nonetheless pull together, at least for limited time and limited ends, to see the kids are taken care of.

As towards Princess Irulan -- remember that she is a Bene Gesserit. I can think of many, many reasons for their marriage to remain cool and formal, especially since Paul now has foresight to see exactly what happens if he gets too close to her.

-In the book, the Great Houses are all present, as is most of the Imperial Court, to witness the duel and what happens. In the movie, the Emperor brings one ship, has his guys stand around in ranks in the sun in the desert doing nothing until they are attacked, and then when Paul "wins" the great houses just say "no" and he sends infantry up in troop carriers to take on what was previously described as the warfleets of seven great houses. This plan was not approved by a five year old.
-The Spacing Guild is entirely not present. They were a major part of the negotiations over spice (why nukes? why not just "water of life reaction?" seriously, it takes like 20 seconds to explain) and are part of why the Emperor's little throneroom seems unserious. Nobody's there but the Emperor, his guards, and a few nobody minions with weird collars. I think one or both of the other adaptations did this much better.

I agree the absence of the Spacing Guild was greatly missed. Nonetheless, we did see heighliners in the first book so we know something of the Dune Universe, and I think we have to assume that the Spacing Guild not only prevented the Great Houses from landing on Arrakis, but also provided transports to the Atreides army -- transports the Great Houses do not dare fire on, because firing on a Guild ship probably means them being embargoed forever, cut off from interstellar trade and trapped on their planets. As I've said before, if the Guild sides with Paul because of his threat to destroy the spice fields, they grant Paul a powerful strategic advantage since he can travel by Guild anywhere in the Imperium while the Great Houses can be isolated and trapped by the simple expedient of the Guild denying their militaries passage.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[KorvinStarmast]

Oh, and the teeth are black because the scene is shot in infrared, so dead body parts like teeth show up as black, not because they are stained in some way.

While glad for the explanation, thank you ... I find the compatibility of a human strain raised in the "black light sun" environment to the Arrakis environment to be a bit much.
It's been years since I read the books. I don't recall the Harkonnen homeland being too much different from the Atriedes homeland. (Happy to be corrected if mistaken on that).

The time skip (and the sister still being in the womb) was something that was bugging me during the movie that it took J-H's post to crystalize. In the Lynch Dune, she's up and walking around and a dangerous little tyke with insane intelligence. (Which fits what I recall of the book). I don't get the decision to mess that up.

Worm riding: pretty cool.

Also: I kept waiting for the Spacers Guild to show and ... it didn't happen.

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Because Leto is self-controlled, he cannot be blackmailed, cannot be controlled by his vices, cannot be addicted to drugs, is immune to most forms of BG manipulation and control which closely resembles the Harkonnen's own methods -- to not trust good intentions or honor but to seek levers over their political pawns which cannot be defeated. He is, in other words, a loose cannon from the BG perspective. By contrast, the Harkonnens are two-legged beasts, but precisely because they are ruled by their appetites, they can be ruled by those who have power over those same appetities. Feyd-Ruatha has a sexual appetite, for example, and Fenring is able to both whet this and manipulate it to her ends. He also has an appetite for violence, and the BG can sate that by directing it to their ends.

This is why I view Paul as, not the villain of Dune 2, but it's anti-hero. An anti-hero, because at the end of the story he has adopted Harkonnen methods (for example, leaving his grandfather's body to be eaten by animals, a brutality the Harkonnens would have understood and approved of, if they were the ones doing it). But not a villain, because the alternative to Paul's action is not the Golden Path but the rule of Feyd-Ruatha. The galaxy-wide war he feared would have still happened, but it would have been waged by the Harkonnens and there would be no Golden Path at the end of it, simply extinction.

Nice thoughts there.

(1) For all of the slow pacing, the ending seems greatly rushed as regards the Noble Houses and the decision to embark on a war. There could have been some less dragged out scenes throughout the movie and some more detail on the relationships between houses and the Imperial House that I think would have been more satisfying.

(2) Leaving the Baron's dead body out for the desert to reclaim struck me as a very Fremen payback to an enemy, but, as we see before hand, they suck the water out of defeated Harnonnens early in the film so perhaps they either don't want his fluid or your "it's a Harkonnen move" is closer to the intended message.

(3) The seduction of Fayd was, I thought, a well-done sequence in terms of the demonstrating how the BG manage bloodlines.

[KorvinStarmast]

Oh, and the teeth are black because the scene is shot in infrared, so dead body parts like teeth show up as black, not because they are stained in some way.

While glad for the explanation, thank you ... I find the compatibility of a human strain raised in the "black light sun" environment to the Arrakis environment to be a bit much.
It's been years since I read the books. I don't recall the Harkonnen homeland being too much different from the Atriedes homeland. (Happy to be corrected if mistaken on that).

The time skip (and the sister still being in the womb) was something that was bugging me during the movie that it took J-H's post to crystalize. In the Lynch Dune, she's up and walking around and a dangerous little tyke with insane intelligence. (Which fits what I recall of the book). I don't get the decision to mess that up.

Worm riding: pretty cool.

Also: I kept waiting for the Spacers Guild to show and ... it didn't happen.

Spoiler: pendell's exposition

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Because Leto is self-controlled, he cannot be blackmailed, cannot be controlled by his vices, cannot be addicted to drugs, is immune to most forms of BG manipulation and control which closely resembles the Harkonnen's own methods -- to not trust good intentions or honor but to seek levers over their political pawns which cannot be defeated. He is, in other words, a loose cannon from the BG perspective. By contrast, the Harkonnens are two-legged beasts, but precisely because they are ruled by their appetites, they can be ruled by those who have power over those same appetities. Feyd-Ruatha has a sexual appetite, for example, and Fenring is able to both whet this and manipulate it to her ends. He also has an appetite for violence, and the BG can sate that by directing it to their ends.

This is why I view Paul as, not the villain of Dune 2, but it's anti-hero. An anti-hero, because at the end of the story he has adopted Harkonnen methods (for example, leaving his grandfather's body to be eaten by animals, a brutality the Harkonnens would have understood and approved of, if they were the ones doing it). But not a villain, because the alternative to Paul's action is not the Golden Path but the rule of Feyd-Ruatha. The galaxy-wide war he feared would have still happened, but it would have been waged by the Harkonnens and there would be no Golden Path at the end of it, simply extinction.

Nice thoughts there.

(1) For all of the slow pacing, the ending seems greatly rushed as regards the Noble Houses and the decision to embark on a war. There could have been some less dragged out scenes throughout the movie and some more detail on the relationships between houses and the Imperial House that I think would have been more satisfying.

(2) Leaving the Baron's dead body out for the desert to reclaim struck me as a very Fremen payback to an enemy, but, as we see before hand, they suck the water out of defeated Harnonnens early in the film so perhaps they either don't want his fluid or your "it's a Harkonnen move" is closer to the intended message.

(3) The seduction of Fayd was, I thought, a well-done sequence in terms of the demonstrating how the BG manage bloodlines.

(4) I would need to watch the movie again, but I think I saw the tattoo on the knife fighter.

[Eldan]

IT's a fun little rabbit hole to go down to, really. It's not an infrared star in the books, but the Harkonnen homeworld is given as orbiting 36 Ophiuchi B, which is, in fact, a dwarf star emitting mostly infrared, though Herbert likely wouldn't have known that.