10 minute barbarian rage is completely incoherent

[Skrum]

Yes, I know this was a popular change in One, and it's easy to see why on a mechanical level. Barbs drop rage too easily and too randomly and the class *is* the amount of time spent in rage, so it's given a much longer duration and the ability to prolong it even out of combat.

But I hate this. Up to 10 minutes in a rage, when not even fighting?? What the heck is this ability? How am I supposed to imagine what this looks like? Imagine a party climbs a wall (str), sneaks passed some guards (dex), gets made by a guard and bribes him (cha), and then finally the barb lifts a heavy gate (str). That whole time, the barb is just stewing in the back, grinding their teeth for 10 minutes, maximizing the rage duration and hoping for another str roll.

If the ability isn't RAGE then don't call it RAGE.

Now I know this is a little out of the box, but just a thought, just a little spitballing, what if
- rage last for 1 minute
- rage doesn't end unless the barb starts a turn at 0 (or they end it voluntarily)
- BARB GETS SOME DARN ABILITIES THAT AREN'T BASED ON RAGE

Ok I'm raging about this. But it wasn't for 10 minutes; that would be crazy.

[Kane0]

- BARB GETS SOME DARN ABILITIES THAT AREN'T BASED ON RAGE

Ok I'm raging about this. But it wasn't for 10 minutes; that would be crazy.

This is madness!

[Theodoxus]

I just wish they'd gone back to rounds for Rage. Multiply their current rage by 10, that's how many rounds a LR you have. Initiate a Rage with a BA, it goes as long as you need (3 or 4 rounds I guess is typical) and then it stops. No wasting 6 or 7 rounds on one of your precious 2 Rages for nothing. No need to constantly seethe for 10 minutes.

If you have 20 rounds of Rage, its less concerning blowing 1 of them to Rage, lift a gate with advantage and the immediately calm down.

You can spring traps with your face. You can dwarf toss your friends across the 20' chasm (is that racist? I think it's racist...) Also removes the weird skill beats that were used to justify the 10 minutes.

IDK what WotC was thinking, but they went in the complete opposite direction of what the class needed.

[Arkhios]

This is madness!

"Madness? THIS IS SPARTA!"

(Sorry, I couldn't resist)

I just wish they'd gone back to rounds for Rage. Multiply their current rage by 10, that's how many rounds a LR you have. Initiate a Rage with a BA, it goes as long as you need (3 or 4 rounds I guess is typical) and then it stops. No wasting 6 or 7 rounds on one of your precious 2 Rages for nothing. No need to constantly seethe for 10 minutes.

If you have 20 rounds of Rage, its less concerning blowing 1 of them to Rage, lift a gate with advantage and the immediately calm down.

You can spring traps with your face. You can dwarf toss your friends across the 20' chasm (is that racist? I think it's racist...) Also removes the weird skill beats that were used to justify the 10 minutes.

IDK what WotC was thinking, but they went in the complete opposite direction of what the class needed.

Too much of micromanagement. Just make one use of Rage last until the end of the encounter, as in 4th edition.

The 3.0/3.5 way to calculate rage rounds was too damn fiddly. I mean, you could rage a number of times per DAY and each time you did, it would last 4 rounds + your newly modifier constitution modifier (let's say from 14 to 18, so a "whopping" 8 rounds in total (12 seconds short of 1 minute), and after that you took a nasty penalty to your strength and dexterity until the end of the whole encounter. At some point it's really possible that you run out of rage and the fight still rages on (been there, done that, several times; never fun)

[Beelzebub1111]

You can spring traps with your face. You can dwarf toss your friends across the 20' chasm (is that racist? I think it's racist...)

It's alright as long as you don't tell the elf.

[Theodoxus]

Too much of micromanagement. Just make one use of Rage last until the end of the encounter, as in 4th edition.

How does that change anything though? That's just rolling Persistent Rage into the base mechanic.

[Arkhios]

How does that change anything though? That's just rolling Persistent Rage into the base mechanic.

It removes the need to do micromanagement (as in, keeping track of rounds/minutes/hourglass turns/whatever you do to keep track of rage, until your rage ends). If your rage simply ends when the fight is over, I'd say that's a positive change.

Also, yes. And that wouldn't break anything. Persistent Rage is a boring improvement on rage to be honest.

I do agree, that Rage should be combat feature alone. Barbarians should get more non-rage related features that are usable outside combat.

[Theodoxus]

I don't disagree that Barbs need more OOC stuff. But I do think they also need more Rage.

How's this: Give Barbarians a choice at first level.

Rage of the Seas: Your Rage is mercurial and comes and goes like the tide. You get a number of rounds to Rage equal to 10 times your proficiency bonus. These rounds don't need to be consecutive, but it does require a Bonus Action to initiate, but not maintain. The rounds of Rage refreshes on a Long Rest.

Rage of the Beasts: Your Rage is slow burning and on a hair trigger. You get a number of Rages equal to your proficiency bonus. Each Rage requires a Bonus Action to activate, and lasts for a maximum of one minute, though may be canceled at any time. Your Rages refresh on a Short or Long Rest.

Best of both worlds, granting a specific player the way they'd prefer.

[titi]

How is someone being angry for a long time impossible?

[stoutstien]

IMO any player option who's core identity is directly tied to a set duration is going to be a mess. DND hasn't handled time well since 2e.

You could probably map 90% of the issues with 5e back to this.

[Mastikator]

Rages based on proficiency bonus would make dipping barbarian basically always better than just being a barbarian... which it already is but fanning those flames should not be desirable.

I do think that barbarians should get non-combat non-rage features, but at the same time, that's a different discussion. Barbarians also need combat features both that depend on rage and those that don't. And I don't mind allowing rage to be used out of combat for non-combat but still thematically appropriate things. But then it should be thematically appropriate for their subclass. I can easily see a beast or totem barbarian benefiting from rage when using the survival skill for example. (I'm not convinced granting them a blanket switch to strength is the right answer, maybe just the rage damage bonus on the skill check?)

However, on topic. Rage that lasts 10 minutes. 10 minutes is pretty long, for a level 1 barbarian. A level 20 barbarian? They can rage all day if they want IMO. I don't think that persistent rage is a decent feature though, instead I'd set it to level x minutes. At level 1 you can keep your rage up for 1 minute, at level 5 you can keep it going for 5 minutes and so on. What I think persistent rage should do is that it doesn't end when you're incapacitated, rather when you're dead. IE if you sleep a high level barbarian they maintain rage at sleep. They're just that angry. Does it make sense? No if you think a barbarian is just an angry guy at the gym. But I think a barbarian is essentially a super hero.

I don't think rage should end just because the encounter ends either, if you have two encounters close to each other it would feel bad to use another rage. Or maybe barbarians should just get more rages? I like the idea of recovering one on a short rest.

[Aimeryan]

This is one of those cases that it really should be 'DM decides when Rage ends. A couple of minutes of unbroken peace is usually necessary for a Barbarian to calm down.'

We argue about skill DCs being DM fiat, combined with the overreaching randomness of a d20, yet for something that actually would be quite varied and prone to chaos IT is given hard codified rules.

[Witty Username]

I mean, it just feels like Hulk rage to me, which is what I think is what the changes are going for.

The barbarian hits the anger point, and they become more animal and primal, as well as angry. Stalking through the woods, see that guard on the edge of town, but they aren't the one you want to sink that hate into, so you clamber over the wall like a big ass cat and go to sniff out that villain that has been buggin you for the last week it seems.

I don't know about you, but 10 minutes feels pretty short for how long a person can be and stay angry.

[LibraryOgre]

Ten minutes of rage seems very reasonable to me... but I've also worked public service, and have had toddlers.

[Witty Username]

Ten minutes of rage seems very reasonable to me... but I've also worked public service, and have had toddlers.

I was remembering junior high, but that works too.

[Dr.Samurai]

Yes, I know this was a popular change in One, and it's easy to see why on a mechanical level. Barbs drop rage too easily and too randomly and the class *is* the amount of time spent in rage, so it's given a much longer duration and the ability to prolong it even out of combat.

But I hate this. Up to 10 minutes in a rage, when not even fighting?? What the heck is this ability? How am I supposed to imagine what this looks like? Imagine a party climbs a wall (str), sneaks passed some guards (dex), gets made by a guard and bribes him (cha), and then finally the barb lifts a heavy gate (str). That whole time, the barb is just stewing in the back, grinding their teeth for 10 minutes, maximizing the rage duration and hoping for another str roll.

If the ability isn't RAGE then don't call it RAGE.

Now I know this is a little out of the box, but just a thought, just a little spitballing, what if
- rage last for 1 minute
- rage doesn't end unless the barb starts a turn at 0 (or they end it voluntarily)
- BARB GETS SOME DARN ABILITIES THAT AREN'T BASED ON RAGE

Ok I'm raging about this. But it wasn't for 10 minutes; that would be crazy.

Completely agreed. It's super goofy.

I think over time it simply won't be Rage anymore, and this is the first step in that direction.

[Theodoxus]

I don't picture it like a seething rage, more like an adrenaline induced destructive anger. And that's something that is pretty hard to maintain - and especially hard on your body to keep running. (Though yes, I recognize the super-human aspect of the Barbarian class - so I'm ok with looking at the whole differently.)

[Sorinth]

In 2e when they introduced the Berserker kit the rules for going berserk were that they had to spend 10 rounds trying to psych themselves up and during that time "the character is growling, moaning, uttering imprecations". If no enemies were in sight they could then hold the berserk for a time. So oddly enough stewing in the back for 10min is actually going back to it's roots.


My preference for allowing rage out of combat is to allow a Barbarian to enter a rage as a reaction when there's a strength check similar to how the new reaction guidance spell.

[Darth Credence]

"That's my secret, Cap. I'm always angry."

Banner doesn't seem angry most of the time, but he says he is, so he has that rage going non-stop. And back during that time, he would turn back to Banner if he tamped it down enough, but he spent substantially longer than 10 minutes in Hulk form in Avengers. And he wasn't constantly fighting - there would have been more than enough time to fall out if he had to be fighting when he found Loki and called him a puny god.

I just don't see a 10-minute rage as being unlikely or unprecedented, in real life or fictional characters.

[Blatant Beast]

Ten minutes of rage seems very reasonable to me... but I've also worked public service, and have had toddlers.

Yeah, Talk Radio and 4Chan have conclusively demonstrated that it is quite possible to be angry, and inspire anger in others, for a much greater duration than a mere 10 minutes.

If one trains to perfect anger, one can reach Olympian-like levels in terms of getting and maintaining a chip on one’s shoulder….see Darth Vader, (it’s always Obi-Wan fault, or The Emperor’s fault, or Yoda’s..etc, etc

Mechanically, the change is a huge quality of life adjustment for the Barbarian class.

[Dr.Samurai]

The new Champion fighter gets Advantage on Strength checks as a passive feature.

Seems weird to be missing on the barbarian and the barbarian has to use a resource to gain it.

[LibraryOgre]

The new Champion fighter gets Advantage on Strength checks as a passive feature.

Seems weird to be missing on the barbarian and the barbarian has to use a resource to gain it.

See, I'd just make rage a feature of a fighter subclass, rather than the center of a whole class.

[Blatant Beast]

The new Champion fighter gets Advantage on Strength checks as a passive feature.

Seems weird to be missing on the barbarian and the barbarian has to use a resource to gain it.

Captain America vs the Hulk.

Logen Ninefingers, is a great example of a literary Beserker. Logen is a strong, and a cunning tactician and strategist in everyday life.. Logen, then becomes a nigh mindless, engine of destruction when he channels the Bloody Nine.

If you want to play a Power Lifter, play a Champion. If you want to play a Hell’s Angels Biker from Altamonte Speedway, (aka a scarily dangerous dude),…go with the Barb. When push comes to shove, Advantage is there for the taking for either class.

This seems fine to me.

[Dr.Samurai]

But I think to the OP's point though... what is Rage supposed to look like? Because Vader's anger is purely rhetorical. We're just told that his power is fueled by anger, but he's actually quite calm and collected throughout the original trilogy. He doesn't portray "anger" or "rage" at all.

(Okay, I'm at work and my posts are going through a bit weird. Sorry, I should start quoting people because I'm coming in out of order lol.)

[Blatant Beast]

That seems a question for the player to answer.
It is a great starting point, however, what does burning rage look like?
An actor would start there, when finding a performance.

The answers, of course, will differ based off the player.

Honestly, a person that appear calm on the outside, but is seething with rage and the desire to inflict pain for perceived slights..is scary…especially when the full depths of their hatred and power comes to the fore.

Force Choking you wife, slicing up Trade Representatives for your yellow eye, Shabiri grape fix, and taking your son’s hand for talking back to you all seem to be questionable, rage motivated actions that would not fly in most jurisdictions, (might be ok in Mississippi). 😇

[Dr.Samurai]

"taking your son's hand for talking back to you" might be the funniest description of that scene I've ever read lol.

[Darth Credence]

But I think to the OP's point though... what is Rage supposed to look like? Because Vader's anger is purely rhetorical. We're just told that his power is fueled by anger, but he's actually quite calm and collected throughout the original trilogy. He doesn't portray "anger" or "rage" at all.

(Okay, I'm at work and my posts are going through a bit weird. Sorry, I should start quoting people because I'm coming in out of order lol.)

Rage can look like a lot of different things to different people. It can be the rage of the driver who thinks getting cut off on the freeway is the worst thing ever, and he keeps it boiling as he screams curses and drives like a maniac to catch up and repay them. It can be the seething rage of the woman who found out about her spouse cheating, and she quietly seethes as she waits for him to drink the coffee she poisoned. It can be the chronic rage of the person who thinks that the Jedi screwed him over, and who channels that to fuel his mystical power that relies on strong emotions. It can be the short fuse rage of a furry puppet that boils over when he decides it's his time for a drum solo.

In game terms, I let the players determine what rage looks like. I've had a player turn ice cold when they rage - normally a gregarious, fun character, when the rage sets in they have a laser focus on their target and no time for jokes. They are not the shouting, over-the-top rage that is more stereotypical, but it is clearly rage.

[Dr.Samurai]

I think once you describe it as seething or something else, it's not Rage. Rage is violent uncontrollable anger. I think that's the disconnect. We just have to accept that it's a game term. You're seething on the way to Rage, then you Rage.

But in game terms, it's just a mechanic called Rage. As an example, most of my barbarians are not tapping into some violent anger when they rage.

[Easy e]

The way I see most people play it, is it is just pressing a button.

"I am going to rage," the player says with a completely straight face and no emotion behind it.

It is a in game choice, so hit the Triangle button that activates the game benefits now.




At least that is how I see most people play it.

[Darth Credence]

That's fine if that's how you interpret rage, but it isn't how everyone does. A search for "seething rage" got me 2.5 million results. These included therapists' blogs and Reddit questions about how to deal with seething rage, t-shirts with cats and the sarcastic line "seething with rage", references to RPGs and video games with spells or abilities called seething rage, a few bands and songs called a variation of the phrase, lists of examples of how the term is used, poetry and art titled seething rage, an excerpt from Prometheus Bound that has been translated as "hot-seething rage", crossword puzzles with "seething rage" as a clue, and so on.