Speaking of... a Druid with less spellcasting and more wildshaping

[Theodoxus]

I'm not sure how you'd go about codifying it, but if something like: Wildshape/Moon is a 1/3 caster, Animal Companion is a 1/2 caster, and "Balance/Resto" is a full caster, I think it would work well.

What I'm not sure you're talking about, putting it into Warlock parlance, is if these are Patrons or Pact Boons.

I would think making this kind of division at the patron/subclass level would make the most sense. Since they're granted at 1st level, there's no pulling back of slot progression, and it doesn't affect multiclassing.

Circle of the Moon and Circle of the Land are pretty obvious. (Though Moon only grants the 2014 baseline Druid Wildshape - see below.)
I'd incorporate Stars with Land, and maybe add an option at 1st level to emphasize healing, like with Life only slightly different bonuses, or blasting like an Evocation's sculp spell effect.
Circle of Companionship (I think it flows better than Shepherd, but I'm not adamant about it) would grant a companion, but unlike Rangers, I think it should include options for plants and fungus. Sort of rolling Spores and Shepherd together; the companion itself would work akin to the Ranger's (might even subsume the Ranger's BM completely...)

Then the Primal Boons... I'm thinking doubling down on circle aspects... Beast, Book, and Staff.
Beast grants a limited WS capability, probably 1/LR (with invocation support to boost it). But when coupled with Moon, it grants 2014 Moon wildshape.
Book works like the Warlock boon (extra cantrips), but grants an extra spell slot of your highest level instead of rituals and ritual casting.
Staff grants the Find Familiar spell, but for Companionship it instead boosts your companion (adding HP, maybe doubling the PB bonus they receive, etc.)

Invocations (Primal Gifts?) would then both modify the Boons, and grant other druid specific benefits (Barkskin, maybe boosting Goodberry to restore 1+PB HP?, continual Shillelagh on any club wielded, etc.)

[GeneralVryth]

I'm not sure how you'd go about codifying it, but if something like: Wildshape/Moon is a 1/3 caster, Animal Companion is a 1/2 caster, and "Balance/Resto" is a full caster, I think it would work well.

What I'm not sure you're talking about, putting it into Warlock parlance, is if these are Patrons or Pact Boons.

I would think making this kind of division at the patron/subclass level would make the most sense. Since they're granted at 1st level, there's no pulling back of slot progression, and it doesn't affect multiclassing.

Circle of the Moon and Circle of the Land are pretty obvious. (Though Moon only grants the 2014 baseline Druid Wildshape - see below.)
I'd incorporate Stars with Land, and maybe add an option at 1st level to emphasize healing, like with Life only slightly different bonuses, or blasting like an Evocation's sculp spell effect.
Circle of Companionship (I think it flows better than Shepherd, but I'm not adamant about it) would grant a companion, but unlike Rangers, I think it should include options for plants and fungus. Sort of rolling Spores and Shepherd together; the companion itself would work akin to the Ranger's (might even subsume the Ranger's BM completely...)

Then the Primal Boons... I'm thinking doubling down on circle aspects... Beast, Book, and Staff.
Beast grants a limited WS capability, probably 1/LR (with invocation support to boost it). But when coupled with Moon, it grants 2014 Moon wildshape.
Book works like the Warlock boon (extra cantrips), but grants an extra spell slot of your highest level instead of rituals and ritual casting.
Staff grants the Find Familiar spell, but for Companionship it instead boosts your companion (adding HP, maybe doubling the PB bonus they receive, etc.)

Invocations (Primal Gifts?) would then both modify the Boons, and grant other druid specific benefits (Barkskin, maybe boosting Goodberry to restore 1+PB HP?, continual Shillelagh on any club wielded, etc.)

I was envisioning Wild Companion, Wild Shape, and Old Knowledge as Pact Boons, or the starting point for those chains of invocations (see my above write-up for further details). The parallels would be something like:
Wild Companion = Chain
Wild Shape = Blade
Old Knowledge = Book

I don't think you need to go all the way down to 1/3 caster for Moon, or half caster for Companion (besides that is really hard to do). Just simply have Wild Shape consume a Primal Slot (Pact Slot) to change (and gain some temp HP), that will consume a fair amount of slots (probably all or nearly all at lower levels). The 2/3rds to full caster where my example ends up as is almost certainly balanced if taking full advantage of Wild Shape or the Companion consumes Primal Slots. I took a slightly different approach, I made Wild Shape extremely Gifts (Invocations) intensive just to get to Moon Druid competency, with the hope the reduced spell casting capacity would balance it out. If it doesn't having Wild Shape consume Primal Slots would be the next step (and could allow you to buff some of the Gifts associated with Wild Shape).

Subclasses would be something else, ideally a lot of them besides Moon would be re-usable. More or less binding certain Pact Boons to certain Subclasses is a major issue of the 5e Warlock (and what lead to Hexbalde's silliness), so trying to avoid that seems wise.

[Arkhios]

Remember though you talking about taking what was/is a pretty useful subclass ability and making it free. If you are only thinking about the main class, it can become very easy to make something that is OP once sub-classes are involved. This is part of why Wild Shape is not even assumed at all in my example above, but one the 3 Boons chosen early.

Obviously, a hit point regaining ability needs to be just right or it risks becoming OP.

That has a certain flavor to it for sure. In practice though Balance and Restoration probably end up very similar as just modifications of spells or giving spell like effects. And if you reach back in the history of D&D you will find the 3/3.5e Druids with their faithful animal companions. Hence I have a soft for the following breakdown:
Wild Companion
Wild Shape
Old Knowledge

And the option to mix them if you want.

Okay, that's not a bad composition, to be fair.

To make them stand out from each other a bit more, how're these?

Spirit Companion ("Chain-esque", but a bit more beefy. Maybe I'll just borrow the TCE-Ranger's Primal Companion's concept, and give them something that lends them some spiritual flavor; for example the relatively common trait "Incorporeal Movement" probably isn't too strong addition. Nature's Gifts (see, i may have decided on the feature's name) might then give the companion extra actions, like letting them make extra attacks in your stead, or the like)

Kindred Spirit ("Blade-esque"; 2014 base Wild Shape options, enhanced further by Nature's Gifts; for example, starting from 5th level, granting the Extra Attack ability while Wild Shaped, or granting the form additional abilities, like Rage-esque damage bonus and/or resistance)

Sage of the Old Faith ("Tome-esque", maybe a bit more priestly flavor, could even give a choice between gaining bonus spells known from the Life, Nature, or Tempest domain spell lists, enhanced further by Nature's Gifts, or alter their spells known to be spells prepared etc.)

[MagneticKitty]

I would not say wildshape is new person friendly, or special needs friendly... druid is a very complex class, one of the most complex to play.
but to answer your question; it already has a built in wildshape enhancement, it's called unlocking polymorph and using it on yourself (instead of enemies). polymorph scales to your level (cr) and is already very powerful.

if you're instead looking to make druid simpler, you could just use like base scaling stat blocks you'd have to make.
make a tanky build with lower attack power and fast one with more attack power but frail... and let them pick one extra movement type: climb, swim, fly that gets unlocked at the provided levels listed for forms. maybe disallow tanky and fly combo. Done.

[JNAProductions]

I would not say wildshape is new person friendly, or special needs friendly... druid is a very complex class, one of the most complex to play.
but to answer your question; it already has a built in wildshape enhancement, it's called unlocking polymorph and using it on yourself (instead of enemies). polymorph scales to your level (cr) and is already very powerful.

if you're instead looking to make druid simpler, you could just use like base scaling stat blocks you'd have to make.
make a tanky build with lower attack power and fast one with more attack power but frail... and let them pick one extra movement type: climb, swim, fly that gets unlocked at the provided levels listed for forms. maybe disallow tanky and fly combo. Done.

Polymorph is NOT the same as Wildshape.

It requires Concentration, doesn't have miscellaneous perks Wildshape does (like higher levels being able to cast spells, or Moon Druid self-healing), and most importantly, it replaces your mental stats.

[Ionathus]

Beast-Boy-Style Wildshape (i.e. functionally limitless quantity of "shifts" plus consistent variety and utility) should be Druid from the start. I get why 5e clung to the spellcasting baggage of previous editions, but they really should split Spellslinger Druid and Wildshaper Druid into two different classes.

I think the new D&D movie got it right there: they had so many fun and inventive things for Doric to do with her shapechanging that I never really missed her lack of spellcasting. The chase scene in the castle was especially fun.

Conceptual changes I'd make:

• Remove Spellcasting
• Give base druid the Moon Druid's Combat Wild Shape features - swapping "expend a spell slot to heal" with "x times per day" or a pool of HP like paladin.
• Druids get d12 HD (bear with me)(lol bears)
• Wildshape no longer gives you an extra hitpoints pool -- damage taken applies to your "main" form.
• AC of combat wildshape forms is buffed to improve tankiness. Between the HD buffs and the AC bonus of most combat-focused Wildshape forms, plus their bonus action healing pool, Druids should be medium-quality tanks, akin to Fighters and Clerics.
• Different combat forms have more distinct (scaling) bonuses or tack-on effects, turning Druid into somewhat of a beast version of a Battle Master. One form gets a strong pushing/tripping attack, another gives allies advantage, another can constrict, another can protect allies, etc.
• Outside of combat, removing the limitation on number of "shifts" would allow for much better scouting and utility.
• Elemental transformation at level 10 becomes a base class feature, on a 1/short rest limit. Maybe the subclasses could differentiate here: one subclass gets classic Elementals, another gets (CR equivalent) Plants like Shambling Mound, another gets Fey, maybe the weirdest subclasses get Undead or Aberration.
• Level 20 capstone is turning into a ****ing dragon.

I like the idea of combat and exploration generalists, and animal shapeshifting has so much cultural, folklore, and tactical potential. In combat, I'd see them scaling as decent damage dealers but really shining with their flexibility -- the Bonus Action wildshape means they could change every turn, but the competition for other Bonus Actions like healing (or class specific ones) means that you're rewarded for committing to a single form if that's your preference.

Toss in some flavorful ribbons like Druidic language and maybe the ability to get along with other animals by matching their form, and you've got yourself a great class that doesn't feel overwhelming like vanilla 5e druids do.

[MagneticKitty]

you want "more powerful forms" you get more powerful forms. *shrug*
the druid in wildshape's main job is melee tank, like it or not that's what polymorph gives you. more melee tank capability. you don't need mental stats and spell casting for that. basically you are giving these things up temporarily to be a better melee tank, which is what was asked for with "more wildshaping"
Otherwise, you're in the wrong place; go over to the homebrew channels.

[Theodoxus]

you want "more powerful forms" you get more powerful forms. *shrug*
the druid in wildshape's main job is melee tank, like it or not that's what polymorph gives you. more melee tank capability. you don't need mental stats and spell casting for that. basically you are giving these things up temporarily to be a better melee tank, which is what was asked for with "more wildshaping"
Otherwise, you're in the wrong place; go over to the homebrew channels.

You're thinking of the Bard casting polymorph on the Fighter who is down to 5 HP and it's WAY more useful to PM him HP than to actually heal him. The Bard then goes and hides in a corner, Dodging every turn while the Fighter goes to town.

See, the Druid using PM on themselves and wading into traffic is a single bad Concentration check away from being in Caster form surrounded by REALLY angry dudes... that is a combo for roast Druid on a stick, not the "I Pwn the World" you seem to think it is.

[Ionathus]

You're thinking of the Bard casting polymorph on the Fighter who is down to 5 HP and it's WAY more useful to PM him HP than to actually heal him. The Bard then goes and hides in a corner, Dodging every turn while the Fighter goes to town.

See, the Druid using PM on themselves and wading into traffic is a single bad Concentration check away from being in Caster form surrounded by REALLY angry dudes... that is a combo for roast Druid on a stick, not the "I Pwn the World" you seem to think it is.

I agree with your perspective though I think what MagneticKitty was getting at is that this whole thread has pretty much left the realm of "help me understand actual 5e druid" and entering the realm of "help me design a homebrew rework for the 5e druid."

That doesn't take away from your excellent point that, if a 4th level spell is better than your core class feature in many (though not all, tbf) ways, that's a pretty annoying for people who enjoy that core class feature.

[Arkhios]

I agree with your perspective though I think what MagneticKitty was getting at is that this whole thread has pretty much left the realm of "help me understand actual 5e druid" and entering the realm of "help me design a homebrew rework for the 5e druid."

That doesn't take away from your excellent point that, if a 4th level spell is better than your core class feature in many (though not all, tbf) ways, that's a pretty annoying for people who enjoy that core class feature.

You're right, this topic borders very closely to homebrewing and I probably shouldn't have started taking the discussion even further towards 'brewing in here. If any Moderator sees this, and thinks this thread is more suitable for Homebrew Subforum, please put it there.

In the meanwhile...

Beast-Boy-Style Wildshape (i.e. functionally limitless quantity of "shifts" plus consistent variety and utility) should be Druid from the start. I get why 5e clung to the spellcasting baggage of previous editions, but they really should split Spellslinger Druid and Wildshaper Druid into two different classes.

I think the new D&D movie got it right there: they had so many fun and inventive things for Doric to do with her shapechanging that I never really missed her lack of spellcasting. The chase scene in the castle was especially fun.

Conceptual changes I'd make:

• Remove Spellcasting
• Give base druid the Moon Druid's Combat Wild Shape features - swapping "expend a spell slot to heal" with "x times per day" or a pool of HP like paladin.
• Druids get d12 HD (bear with me)(lol bears)
• Wildshape no longer gives you an extra hitpoints pool -- damage taken applies to your "main" form.
• AC of combat wildshape forms is buffed to improve tankiness. Between the HD buffs and the AC bonus of most combat-focused Wildshape forms, plus their bonus action healing pool, Druids should be medium-quality tanks, akin to Fighters and Clerics.
• Different combat forms have more distinct (scaling) bonuses or tack-on effects, turning Druid into somewhat of a beast version of a Battle Master. One form gets a strong pushing/tripping attack, another gives allies advantage, another can constrict, another can protect allies, etc.
• Outside of combat, removing the limitation on number of "shifts" would allow for much better scouting and utility.
• Elemental transformation at level 10 becomes a base class feature, on a 1/short rest limit. Maybe the subclasses could differentiate here: one subclass gets classic Elementals, another gets (CR equivalent) Plants like Shambling Mound, another gets Fey, maybe the weirdest subclasses get Undead or Aberration.
• Level 20 capstone is turning into a ****ing dragon.

I like the idea of combat and exploration generalists, and animal shapeshifting has so much cultural, folklore, and tactical potential. In combat, I'd see them scaling as decent damage dealers but really shining with their flexibility -- the Bonus Action wildshape means they could change every turn, but the competition for other Bonus Actions like healing (or class specific ones) means that you're rewarded for committing to a single form if that's your preference.

Toss in some flavorful ribbons like Druidic language and maybe the ability to get along with other animals by matching their form, and you've got yourself a great class that doesn't feel overwhelming like vanilla 5e druids do.

I like where you're getting at. And part of me agrees with this. However, I wouldn't drop spellcasting entirely. In regards to self-healing capabilities, I do realize that Pact Magic type casting is probably a bit bonkers given that you might end up healing much more than you needed (= "wasting" resources), and a pool of HP like Paladin could be good alternative. Usable as a Bonus Action while wild-shaped but only on yourself. Maybe even include the possibility to heal yourself with the same action used to wild-shape from your normal form to wild shape or even from wild shape to another (or, as I earlier put it, essentially expending uses of wild shape to heal yourself). Actually, now that I think of it, maybe wildshaping should be a pool of Points in on itself, similar to Sorcery Points, or Ki Points, which you could use for more than just wild shapes (such as healing yourself).

[Ionathus]

Actually, now that I think of it, maybe wildshaping should be a pool of Points in on itself, similar to Sorcery Points, or Ki Points, which you could use for more than just wild shapes (such as healing yourself).

I'm still mainly in favor of "unlimited" but I'd also be fine with "a bunch of" wildshapes per short rest/long rest.

The worst thing about vanilla druid is having only 2 uses of your most flavorful and exciting feature. Druid was my first ever 5e PC, and I can't tell you the number of times I wildshaped for like, one turn, before the fight/burglary/social encounter conditions changed so drastically that my current form was useless and I wished I'd picked a different animal.

And with only 2 uses per short rest, the extremely high opportunity cost of wildshaping was ALWAYS on my mind. I was always hesitant to use it on anything even remotely "flippant", so Analysis Paralysis was just a constant feature of my gameplay.

Combine that with Druid's fairly esoteric spell list (that's absolutely packed with Concentration spells, so there's a second thing you have to guess and commit to if you want to get good value out of it!) and you get one of the worst "FOMO" experiences in all of 5e, in my opinion.

[KyleG]

It wonder if having combat forms as basically a pool of extra hp is the wrong approach. Maybe your form adds temp hp but you can use all your hp in that form until you fall unconscious. Infact "combat forms" is exactly how you could allow more wildshapes with that form being limited and anything not combat eg. Cr0 being unlimited uses.

But absolutely lean into the druid being a wildshaper with 1/2 casting.
Circle of the land make this more like a ranger or an elementalist even allowing trading of combat wilshapes for enhanced spell casting or metamagic like qualities.
Circle of the shepherd theming remains the same - calling a pack to aid you.
Circle of the moon becomes lycanthropic in nature, hybrid form options perhaps

[Arkhios]

It wonder if having combat forms as basically a pool of extra hp is the wrong approach. Maybe your form adds temp hp but you can use all your hp in that form until you fall unconscious. Infact "combat forms" is exactly how you could allow more wildshapes with that form being limited and anything not combat eg. Cr0 being unlimited uses.

But absolutely lean into the druid being a wildshaper with 1/2 casting.
Circle of the land make this more like a ranger or an elementalist even allowing trading of combat wilshapes for enhanced spell casting or metamagic like qualities.
Circle of the shepherd theming remains the same - calling a pack to aid you.
Circle of the moon becomes lycanthropic in nature, hybrid form options perhaps

To be honest, I'm actually more comfortable with the Pact Magicky casting progress, because it's sort of mix between a full-caster and ½-caster (technically still a full-caster given that they still have access to a spell list of total 9 levels of spells). Since druids have a "full-caster" spell-list, I'd rather not radically restrict that part.

However, what I could try, is to make the druids progress through spell levels at half the normal pace (like a half-caster), while keeping the progression for the number of spell slots, as is normal for Pact Magic, and finally make it part of becoming an Arch Druid to gain the ability to cast their higher than 5th level spells, once/long rest for each spell level.

[Arkhios]

It wonder if having combat forms as basically a pool of extra hp is the wrong approach. Maybe your form adds temp hp but you can use all your hp in that form until you fall unconscious. Infact "combat forms" is exactly how you could allow more wildshapes with that form being limited and anything not combat eg. Cr0 being unlimited uses.

But absolutely lean into the druid being a wildshaper with 1/2 casting.
Circle of the land make this more like a ranger or an elementalist even allowing trading of combat wilshapes for enhanced spell casting or metamagic like qualities.
Circle of the shepherd theming remains the same - calling a pack to aid you.
Circle of the moon becomes lycanthropic in nature, hybrid form options perhaps

To be honest, I'm actually more comfortable with the Pact Magicky casting progress, because it's sort of mix between a full-caster and ½-caster (technically still a full-caster given that they still have access to a spell list of total 9 levels of spells). Since druids have a "full-caster" spell-list, I'd rather not radically restrict that part.

However, what I could try, is to make the druids progress through spell levels at half the normal pace (like a half-caster), while keeping the progression for the number of spell slots, as is normal for Pact Magic, and finally make it part of becoming an Arch Druid to gain the ability to cast their higher than 5th level spells, once/long rest for each spell level.

[Kane0]

I'm very much a fan of temp HP (plus even a bit of healing for moon or whatever) instead of a new pool of HP.

[Arkhios]

I'm very much a fan of temp HP (plus even a bit of healing for moon or whatever) instead of a new pool of HP.

How much should the temp HP be? As much as the wild shape form would have hit points, or something less, determined by some specific calculation?

[yisopo]

Do you have some free third-party suggestions? I would really like to play a class highly specialized in wildshaping.

[Vogie]

I've been thinking about this for a while - the depiction of a druid in D&D: Honor Among Thieves, for example, shows the druid Doric forgoing casting altogether, and only using wild shapes.

If you wanted to create this type of thing, I could see it executed one of two ways:

• Specifically. You would still use the wizard/druid chassis but whole-cloth replace the "spell slot" and spellcasting features with "animal shapes" (or whatever you'd call it). At the beginning of each day, the druid chooses a number of forms that they can call upon that day. Unlike a spell, which is either instant or with some sort of duration, these forms can be flickered between these. I envision this acting kind of like how the Druid working in Diablo IV - You wouldn't have "attack" and "shift to a wolf" as two separate things, but rather the way you attack is by shifting into a wolf. You wouldn't have the "Dash" action as something distinct from, say, "shift into a deer" - you would be shifting into a deer as a way to dash. Shifting in this way would be exclusive, rather than inclusive - if you have Spider prepared and not Rat, you can't shift into a rat.
• Generally. This is what I expected once Tasha's came out and introduced the concept of the scaling "beast of the Air", "beast of the Land" and "Beast of the sea" statblocks. Going down this route would make more sense on the warlock chassis - You have the ability to shift into different groups of things as "invocations". Each one of those shifts would be using around the same stats with different line-item traits that distinguish a cat from a badger from a spider.

[Kane0]

How much should the temp HP be? As much as the wild shape form would have hit points, or something less, determined by some specific calculation?

Probably something like Druid level or 2x Druid level if you're allowing shifting two or three times per rest, less if youre letting them shift more often.

[Arkhios]

Do you have some free third-party suggestions? I would really like to play a class highly specialized in wildshaping.

Please refrain from hijacking a thread for your own purposes, even though I trust your intentions were good, and your question does relate to the topic. I'm trying to design a "third-party" wildshaping specialist myself (regardless of how many there are already), not to advertise someone else's ideas (regardless of their quality, 'cause I'm not here to judge either). If you have nothing to offer to this process, then I would kindly ask you to direct the question elsewhere.
I'm not being paid to do it (yet), but I am building a folio to work as a game designer, and I need all the experience, most of which I can only get from doing it myself.

Spoiler: However, there were a "few" upthread... see here

Show

Check out this 3rd party product. The dire druid is a half-caster that focuses extensively on wild shape (though it may be a new mechanic / called something different). My brother has a physical copy and I've looked through it a few times. It seems like fun, but I no playtesting experience with it. There are tons of subclasses which each represent a type of animal to shapeshift into (feline, bear, elk, bird, etc.).

Edit: OK, that wasn't free, so probably not ideal for your purposes.

I've taken a stab at this concept. Twice.

There's a whole Homebrew Compendium with quite a few Shapeshifter classes, and probably some other classes along that vein.

In the interest of sharing, I've now made my own Shifter class, partially based off the PF1e class I linked before, but also not.

Link

Five subclasses - Beast (Closest to 'Wildshape'), dragon, griffon, manticore, and Therian (weretouched, with half-caster druidic pact magic casting).

D12 hit dice and mostly unarmoured puts it alongside Barbarian in initial vibes, though they diverge pretty quickly.

Probably something like Druid level or 2x Druid level if you're allowing shifting two or three times per rest, less if youre letting them shift more often.

I can't help but think that this probably would depend on whether the loss of THP indicates also the loss of wild shape or not. If remaining THP is a requirement of staying in Wild Shape, then I think it should be higher. But if the Wild Shape shares your normal hit points and the THP comes only as part of the action to take the Wild Shape form, and you can end the form whenever or however, then it probably could be less.

One thing, that came up before, got me into thinking. THP is certainly the more easier method to go with the Wild Shape forms, but there was this idea that druid's hit die should be changed to d12 altogether. This is perhaps a bit too radical change, but there are several precedent cases where a subclass gives the class higher maximum hit points than the base class gives per level. For example, Draconic Origin Sorcerer gains +1 extra hit point per level (roughly equal to increasing hit die from the Sorcerer's normal d6 to d8).

Since the Druid's hit die is d8 and the suggested d12 is approximately ~2 points higher on average, it would kind of make sense, that you'd get 2 additional hit points per druid level, while in Wild Shape. It could just as well be THP, to be honest. Could possibly even refresh to the total amount of THP at the start of each turn while you stay in Wild Shape. This way you wouldn't need a separate way to expend a resource to regain hit points, and still keep on fighting a bit longer even if your real Hit Points are getting lower.

Just a thought. I need to go to work soon, so I'll leave this here for now for feedback.