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2024-04-12, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Given that they had been hollowing out the rock for the Ministry of Truth, I kind of presume the temple would have just... kept doing that until the rock was more or less disassembled, except Vivec's disappearance and the use of the ingenium to keep it up convinced the majority of people that it was fine, so they simply didnt know they had to deal with it soonest. It's really Sul and Vuhan's fault for using human/mer sacrifice to keep the darn thing floating as a long term plan rather than a harsh stopgap, and then breaking the bloody thing anyway.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-12, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Skyrim (and Hammerfell, and High Rock) did "sacrifice" for Cyrodiil. They sent the flower of their youth to fight and die in the Legion. And they were ready to keep on doing it. It was Cyrodiil that folded, not the other provinces.
Land border is a weakness? Well, okay, but that's just another reason why the provinces shouldn't be taking orders from an empire with its capital in Cyrodiil.
Well, the biggest chunk had already been annihilated in the Battle of the Red Ring. We don't know where the remaining chunks were, but when you're only fighting in one theatre, it's likely that's where the strongest part of your army is deployed. That is how wars work."None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2024-04-12, 10:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Part of the characterisation of the Tribunal is that each of them is actually rather evil, but they're evil in a way the Dunmer society is built around. Vivec is a hypocrite, god of murder, seduction and half-truths who rewards with one hand and punishes with the other, but to the Dunmer this is right and proper because Vivec is the Anticipation of Mephala, and so he inherits all the things associated with Mephala like sex, betrayal and murder. The Tribunal are mortals claiming the domains of Daedric Princes by proxy, good is not an appropriate word for any of the Daedra.
Vivec is a habitual liar, most importantly to himself. In ESO Sotha Sil speculates Vivec has forgotten his real self. He tells stories, exaggerates them over time, and eventually forgets what is true and what is embellishment or outright fabrication. Warrior-Poet after all. His reasons for leaving Baar Dau in the sky could be many, it may even have simply been beyond his power to actually remove it rather than just temporarily halting it, but he probably doesn't remember the actual reason anymore by the time of Morrowind, instead just assuming that the myths he wrote about it being an act of benevolent protection for his priests to spread are in fact true, because he's spent so long telling people that they're true that they have become true to him.Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2024-04-13, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2020
Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
The "should" in your paragraph is basically the result of a power relationship between the overlord centered on its own concerns and the provinces having its own agenda.
"Skyrim should sacrifice for Cyrodill" is not a tragedy or a weakness of the Empire. It is the Empire. It is the way the Empire is, has been, and tries to remain. And for centuries it has been true, for Skyrim has got what it wanted out of the deal; wealth, protection and cultural prominence of one of their own being the founding God of the Septim Empire.
And the Great War laid bare the weakness of Cyrodill, the inability of the Empire to protect their own core territories. From this weakness came impotence and selfishness. Once the Cyrodillian weakness was revealed, the Empire institutions prioritized safeguarding the core and gave up on its border region.
Was it the "right" choice for the Emperor and the Imperial institutions? Yhea probably. The Emperor would probably not have remained so if he had kept fighting while Cyrodill burned. In a way, the Emperor's priorities laid in safeguarding his control over the Empire more than it was in keeping strong as a whole entity.
This is why i dont think the situation is an outcome of Titus Medes II's failing. All writings and recounting of his reign shows he is an astute political and military leader. But he is just a clever man desperately blowing on the embers of a dying Empire. He is Belisarius or Justinian, trapped by the power structure he rules over, its demands and expectation.
The inevitable fall of the Medes Empire is not due to any individual leader's greed or incompetence. It is a fact of the legacy structure it was built upon, and the political compromises that led to its creation after the Oblivion crisis. The Medes Empire failed in its duty of protection to its vassal Hammerfell when it decided to abandon it to safeguard its core, and then didnt kept fighting after the battle of Red Ring.
Oh, also, the Medes Empire came close to betraying Skyrim by recognizing the Forsworn bretons as rulers of the Reach in defiance of centuries of Nord rulership over the land. Basically admitting to the precedent that internal warfare between the Empire's vassal ethnicity was acceptable to seize territories.
After the Empire surrendered Hammerfell and the Aldemeri Dominion had no other strategic objective but seize Hammerfell? And Hammerfell still resisted?
At that point yhea Hammerfell faced all the Dominion's armies the Dominion could afford to throw at them without being distracted by the Empire. And won.
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2024-04-13, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Given that the Empire was still unfriendly to the Dominion, there is no version where the elves actually empty their armies out of Valenwood or Elseweyr to go attack Hammerfell. The Empire would have pounced on such a tactical blunder immediately, concordant or not.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-13, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2020
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2024-04-13, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Excuse me? The entire reason for the concordant is that neither army could attack into the other and win. If one of those armies splits their Strength, say to attack hammerfell, that no longer holds true. It's why the Empire doesn't commit the rest of their forces to deal with the Civil War in skyrim. The Empire would absolutely love it if the Dominion divided their armies into chunks that it coukd devour at will.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-13, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
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2024-04-13, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
The Dominion has a lot of other strategic objectives it needs to complete, and Hammerfell is largely irrelevant as a territory. Again, fronts typically don't just move like that. An army does not declare total war on multiple fronts and then just move all their dudes to a new place when they lose in another area.
If the Dominion were ABLE to just roll over and totally conquer Cyrodiil, they would have. Because their primary goal is to blow up the White Gold Tower. Nothing else matters.
They did not pull their entire army out of Cyrodiil and then send every troop over top Hammerfell. That would be extraordinarily silly for multiple reasons, and your arguments for why they must be the case are "so weak and formless" that unraveling exactly every way in which they don't make sense would take more time than I'm willing to spend on this discussion.
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2024-04-13, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
I mean, do you really believe the Dominion literally threw all they had at Hammerfell, leaving its territories defenseless? Because claiming they didn't isn't a "weak and formless argument", it is the logical thing that happened throught history whenever military conflicts occur.
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2024-04-13, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
They got the Dominion to move out of the Empire (except Southern hammerfell) and stop killing Imperial citizens and looting and burning Imperial land. This is especially important because they were occupying a significant part of the economic and political heart of Cryodiil, to say nothing of the literal geographic center of Imperial logistics.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-13, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
An empire that had already swallowed the poisoned pill that was the Concordat was not about to "pounce" on a limping gerbil. It was psychologically whipped. As it still is a generation later, but presumably even more so when the scars were still bleeding.
Apart from anything else, it had not had the opportunity to rebuild any kind of intelligence operation. So it would have been in no position to even know what, if any, forces the Dominion still had in reserve."None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2024-04-13, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
By all appearances the Empire is still twitchy and ready to draw a generation later. They're either subtle and building up for the fight slow, or angry and chomping for it now. Ulfric was a legionnaire at the time, he certainly would be ready to go to war with the elves, for example.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-13, 07:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
What "appearances" are those? The ones where Tullius is so afraid of offending the Thalmor, he daren't even decline an invitation? Or the ones where the Empire is prepared to kill a substantial chunk of the population of one of its own provinces in order to enforce the Thalmor's imposed laws? The ones where the Thalmor run their own prison and torture chamber in what should be a Legion fort, with no oversight or even access allowed to the Legion, or the ones where the Empire turns prisoners over to them on demand and then daren't even ask what happens to them next?
A few people in the Legion fantasise about liberation, but it's just fantasies. There's absolutely zero sign that anyone, anywhere, has anything resembling an actual plan or timetable for independence.
Yes, Ulfric totally would be up for that, but he's not allowed to. The Empire would rather fight him themselves, than let him have a go at the Thalmor. That's how whipped they are."None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2024-04-13, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Wow. This is... certainly a take I guess, but it sure doesn't seem to be based on the reality of the games. All the imperials know a war is coming. They know they're preparing for it, that more time favors them, and that Ulfric is hated in part because of how obviously he's playing into the hands of the Thalmor. Heck, Tullius even tells Ulfric to his face how he's screwing up the recovery of humanity and he just shrugs it off!
If the imperial force a smile in front of the elves, it's because they don't want to be the ones to cause an incident that escalates to war before they planned. When they hit, it will be deliberate and thought out.
ETA: Tullius goes to the parties because as a political figure he is obligated to a certain level of superficial politeness, not out of any fear of offending the Thalmor, whose good opinion he is not especially worried about.Last edited by Keltest; 2024-04-13 at 09:36 PM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-14, 05:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
It's a take that's based firmly on the reality of the game. I've cited incidents and locations, I've quoted Tullius's own words. What, exactly, is your take based on besides wishful thinking?
"Escalates to war before they planned" - my left buttock. If the Imperials really wanted to fight the Dominion they'd pull out of Skyrim and tell the Thalmor "sorry, nothing we can do, you want the Nords to stop worshipping Talos, you'll have to do it yourselves". The only coherent reason for not doing that is that they're still freaking terrified of the Thalmor and convinced it's only a matter of time before they get their butts handed to them again.
As for what Tullius tells Ulfric - yeah, even if we assume that what you tell the enemy is likely to be the unvarnished truth, you quote me the line where he mentions fighting the Dominion. The closest he gets is:
"The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."
- which could be a hint at some distant future plans to fight them, but it could just as easily be an expression of general unfocused fear.
Of course, I'm sure he's right. And Ulfric probably knows it too, he's had plenty of time to think about it by now. But from his point of view, what difference does it make? Whatever the reasons for him being in the position he is, he's still right. What's he going to do, give up just when he's won?"None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2024-04-14, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
You've made a lot of broad assertions and generally attached your own meanings to statements without any actual evidence. Rikke flat out says that the Empire is the best hope against the Dominion when you ask her why she's part of the Legion:
Originally Posted by Legate Rikke“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-14, 07:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2023
Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Yeah, it is blindingly obvious that both the Empire and Dominion fully expect to be at war again in the imminent future.
The Empire are trying to put it off, because they are not ready (and because they accepted terms designed to shatter their coalition they probably will not be ready) but they are fully expecting a round 2 against the Dominion.
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2024-04-14, 08:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
"What the rebels like to forget is the Empire's the only thing keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim."
-A soldier too afraid to consider fighting the Dominion, apparently.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-14, 09:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2020
Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
And a great job they do that. They keep the Dominion out of Skyrim so much they allow their State Police to patrol the countryside, detain citizens without accountability.
What the Legion and people like you dont seem to understand is that for all intent and purpose, the Thalmor are occupying Skyrim, backed by the Legion's steel. The Legion dont keep track of Thalmor agents and operatives within Imperial territory, they just "intervene" if the Thalmor does a crime within eyesight.
Skyrim is under soft Aldmeri occupation already. Its not like the Thalmor operations restrict themselves to "enforce the White Gold Concordat". They go and do anything that further their agenda, including acting like SS officers stomping on defenseless citizens for the sole purpose of provoking the emotional reaction that has stirred the rebellion.
Skyrim has lived with these "observers" for 20 years. But yhea tell me again how the Legion is keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim. Next you will tell me there's no war in Ba-Sing-Se either.
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2024-04-14, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
So a couple dozen elves with next to no judicial power and a tiny fort stuck between the coast and mountains with no strategic value are an occupying force now?
Yeah, I think I'm done arguing with you.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-14, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2019
Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Yeah, the fact that the Great War 2.0 is probably not that far off is the reason I think starting a civil war is a bad idea, pragmatically speaking. That said, from an emotional point of view it's quite understandable if people no longer want to be part of an empire that's supposed to protect them but instead seemingly bends over and lets the enemy have everything they want for the foreseeable future.
(It's funny, if all I knew about the civil war was the circumstances of the duel that started it, I would've expected Ulfric to be on the pragmatic side and Torygg on the idealistic).
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2024-04-14, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
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2024-04-14, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
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2024-04-14, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
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2024-04-14, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2023
Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
It's a little hyperbolic, but there's no way to say "the Empire is letting a sworn enemy's secret police operate within their own territory" that makes the Empire look good.
Yeah, I can see why the Imperial leadership thought they could suffer the terms of the Concordat but they seemingly had no awareness of the effect conceding Hammerfell and allowing the Thalmor to ban worship of their top god would have on morale. There was always going to be someone like Ulfric with the ambition to seize power and the scars from fighting in the great war that the Thalmor could leverage into a proper civil war.Last edited by Errorname; 2024-04-14 at 05:17 PM.
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2024-04-14, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-04-14, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Unless Skyrim has been independently degenerating for years anyway, I don't think that Civil War was remotely an inevitability. The Talos ban was such a non-thing that the most visible political figure in Skyrim was a Talos worshiper (which I think was even after the Markarth incident made it at least nominally enforced rather than totally ignored) and cities like Markarth and Whiterun had active shrines/temples to Talos still going during the civil war. Ulfric was in a special position to instigate it as a Jarl who already had an army, and with an imperial victory, nobody really thinks there would be another figure with the ability to head that particular cult of personality enough to cause problems.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-14, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
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2024-04-14, 06:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”