Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)

[Keltest]

Although he didn't purposefully drop the nuke because he just disappeared and his power freezing the meteor in place stopped working, would it really be a surprise if he had dropped a nuke before leaving? He left the meteor in place, with all of its momentum intact, instead of destroying it or actually break it's momentum. Baar Dau was always an unspoken threat toward Vvanderfell.

"Stop worshipping me and I'm letting all of you die."

Even knowing that his power was going to fade after the Nerevarine destroyed the Heart of Lorkhan, he made no effort to prevent the meteor from continuing its course on the day his power would be completely gone. He never warned anyone. He was fully content in watching Morrowind die with him.

Given that they had been hollowing out the rock for the Ministry of Truth, I kind of presume the temple would have just... kept doing that until the rock was more or less disassembled, except Vivec's disappearance and the use of the ingenium to keep it up convinced the majority of people that it was fine, so they simply didnt know they had to deal with it soonest. It's really Sul and Vuhan's fault for using human/mer sacrifice to keep the darn thing floating as a long term plan rather than a harsh stopgap, and then breaking the bloody thing anyway.

[veti]

Beyond that, I find it fascinating that the idea that Skyrim should sacrifice for Cyrodiil is treated as a tragedy and a weakness of the Empire, but the idea that Cyrodill should sacrifice for Hammerfell is just expected from them. Why aren't you treating Hammerfell to the same standards you do Cyrodiil?

Skyrim (and Hammerfell, and High Rock) did "sacrifice" for Cyrodiil. They sent the flower of their youth to fight and die in the Legion. And they were ready to keep on doing it. It was Cyrodiil that folded, not the other provinces.

Land border is a weakness? Well, okay, but that's just another reason why the provinces shouldn't be taking orders from an empire with its capital in Cyrodiil.

Are you...under the impression that Hammerfell was facing off against the Dominion's entire army? Or even the biggest chunk? Because that's not how wars work.

Well, the biggest chunk had already been annihilated in the Battle of the Red Ring. We don't know where the remaining chunks were, but when you're only fighting in one theatre, it's likely that's where the strongest part of your army is deployed. That is how wars work.

[Grim Portent]

Although he didn't purposefully drop the nuke because he just disappeared and his power freezing the meteor in place stopped working, would it really be a surprise if he had dropped a nuke before leaving? He left the meteor in place, with all of its momentum intact, instead of destroying it or actually break it's momentum. Baar Dau was always an unspoken threat toward Vvanderfell.

"Stop worshipping me and I'm letting all of you die."

Even knowing that his power was going to fade after the Nerevarine destroyed the Heart of Lorkhan, he made no effort to prevent the meteor from continuing its course on the day his power would be completely gone. He never warned anyone. He was fully content in watching Morrowind die with him.

Part of the characterisation of the Tribunal is that each of them is actually rather evil, but they're evil in a way the Dunmer society is built around. Vivec is a hypocrite, god of murder, seduction and half-truths who rewards with one hand and punishes with the other, but to the Dunmer this is right and proper because Vivec is the Anticipation of Mephala, and so he inherits all the things associated with Mephala like sex, betrayal and murder. The Tribunal are mortals claiming the domains of Daedric Princes by proxy, good is not an appropriate word for any of the Daedra.

Vivec is a habitual liar, most importantly to himself. In ESO Sotha Sil speculates Vivec has forgotten his real self. He tells stories, exaggerates them over time, and eventually forgets what is true and what is embellishment or outright fabrication. Warrior-Poet after all. His reasons for leaving Baar Dau in the sky could be many, it may even have simply been beyond his power to actually remove it rather than just temporarily halting it, but he probably doesn't remember the actual reason anymore by the time of Morrowind, instead just assuming that the myths he wrote about it being an act of benevolent protection for his priests to spread are in fact true, because he's spent so long telling people that they're true that they have become true to him.

[Cikomyr2]

It really doesn't. That whole "shares a land border" thing is a pretty massive logistical hurdle to overcome.

Beyond that, I find it fascinating that the idea that Skyrim should sacrifice for Cyrodiil is treated as a tragedy and a weakness of the Empire, but the idea that Cyrodill should sacrifice for Hammerfell is just expected from them. Why aren't you treating Hammerfell to the same standards you do Cyrodiil?

The "should" in your paragraph is basically the result of a power relationship between the overlord centered on its own concerns and the provinces having its own agenda.

"Skyrim should sacrifice for Cyrodill" is not a tragedy or a weakness of the Empire. It is the Empire. It is the way the Empire is, has been, and tries to remain. And for centuries it has been true, for Skyrim has got what it wanted out of the deal; wealth, protection and cultural prominence of one of their own being the founding God of the Septim Empire.

And the Great War laid bare the weakness of Cyrodill, the inability of the Empire to protect their own core territories. From this weakness came impotence and selfishness. Once the Cyrodillian weakness was revealed, the Empire institutions prioritized safeguarding the core and gave up on its border region.

Was it the "right" choice for the Emperor and the Imperial institutions? Yhea probably. The Emperor would probably not have remained so if he had kept fighting while Cyrodill burned. In a way, the Emperor's priorities laid in safeguarding his control over the Empire more than it was in keeping strong as a whole entity.

This is why i dont think the situation is an outcome of Titus Medes II's failing. All writings and recounting of his reign shows he is an astute political and military leader. But he is just a clever man desperately blowing on the embers of a dying Empire. He is Belisarius or Justinian, trapped by the power structure he rules over, its demands and expectation.

The inevitable fall of the Medes Empire is not due to any individual leader's greed or incompetence. It is a fact of the legacy structure it was built upon, and the political compromises that led to its creation after the Oblivion crisis. The Medes Empire failed in its duty of protection to its vassal Hammerfell when it decided to abandon it to safeguard its core, and then didnt kept fighting after the battle of Red Ring.

Oh, also, the Medes Empire came close to betraying Skyrim by recognizing the Forsworn bretons as rulers of the Reach in defiance of centuries of Nord rulership over the land. Basically admitting to the precedent that internal warfare between the Empire's vassal ethnicity was acceptable to seize territories.

Are you...under the impression that Hammerfell was facing off against the Dominion's entire army? Or even the biggest chunk? Because that's not how wars work.

After the Empire surrendered Hammerfell and the Aldemeri Dominion had no other strategic objective but seize Hammerfell? And Hammerfell still resisted?

At that point yhea Hammerfell faced all the Dominion's armies the Dominion could afford to throw at them without being distracted by the Empire. And won.

[Keltest]

Given that the Empire was still unfriendly to the Dominion, there is no version where the elves actually empty their armies out of Valenwood or Elseweyr to go attack Hammerfell. The Empire would have pounced on such a tactical blunder immediately, concordant or not.

[Cikomyr2]

Given that the Empire was still unfriendly to the Dominion, there is no version where the elves actually empty their armies out of Valenwood or Elseweyr to go attack Hammerfell. The Empire would have pounced on such a tactical blunder immediately, concordant or not.

Your argument is so weak and formless i dont even see how i can begin to address it.

Make up a lot of excuse that are never stated or implied.

[Keltest]

Your argument is so weak and formless i dont even see how i can begin to address it.

Make up a lot of excuse that are never stated or implied.

Excuse me? The entire reason for the concordant is that neither army could attack into the other and win. If one of those armies splits their Strength, say to attack hammerfell, that no longer holds true. It's why the Empire doesn't commit the rest of their forces to deal with the Civil War in skyrim. The Empire would absolutely love it if the Dominion divided their armies into chunks that it coukd devour at will.

[GloatingSwine]

Excuse me? The entire reason for the concordant is that neither army could attack into the other and win. If one of those armies splits their Strength, say to attack hammerfell, that no longer holds true. It's why the Empire doesn't commit the rest of their forces to deal with the Civil War in skyrim. The Empire would absolutely love it if the Dominion divided their armies into chunks that it coukd devour at will.

Treaties that are based on the concept that neither side can achieve victory don't have completely unilateral concessions. "Well they can't beat us but we should give them everything they wanted before the fight and not get anything in return".

[Rynjin]

After the Empire surrendered Hammerfell and the Aldemeri Dominion had no other strategic objective but seize Hammerfell? And Hammerfell still resisted?

At that point yhea Hammerfell faced all the Dominion's armies the Dominion could afford to throw at them without being distracted by the Empire. And won.

The Dominion has a lot of other strategic objectives it needs to complete, and Hammerfell is largely irrelevant as a territory. Again, fronts typically don't just move like that. An army does not declare total war on multiple fronts and then just move all their dudes to a new place when they lose in another area.

If the Dominion were ABLE to just roll over and totally conquer Cyrodiil, they would have. Because their primary goal is to blow up the White Gold Tower. Nothing else matters.

They did not pull their entire army out of Cyrodiil and then send every troop over top Hammerfell. That would be extraordinarily silly for multiple reasons, and your arguments for why they must be the case are "so weak and formless" that unraveling exactly every way in which they don't make sense would take more time than I'm willing to spend on this discussion.

[Divayth Fyr]

Your argument is so weak and formless i dont even see how i can begin to address it.

Make up a lot of excuse that are never stated or implied.

I mean, do you really believe the Dominion literally threw all they had at Hammerfell, leaving its territories defenseless? Because claiming they didn't isn't a "weak and formless argument", it is the logical thing that happened throught history whenever military conflicts occur.

[Keltest]

Treaties that are based on the concept that neither side can achieve victory don't have completely unilateral concessions. "Well they can't beat us but we should give them everything they wanted before the fight and not get anything in return".

They got the Dominion to move out of the Empire (except Southern hammerfell) and stop killing Imperial citizens and looting and burning Imperial land. This is especially important because they were occupying a significant part of the economic and political heart of Cryodiil, to say nothing of the literal geographic center of Imperial logistics.

[veti]

Given that the Empire was still unfriendly to the Dominion, there is no version where the elves actually empty their armies out of Valenwood or Elseweyr to go attack Hammerfell. The Empire would have pounced on such a tactical blunder immediately, concordant or not.

An empire that had already swallowed the poisoned pill that was the Concordat was not about to "pounce" on a limping gerbil. It was psychologically whipped. As it still is a generation later, but presumably even more so when the scars were still bleeding.

Apart from anything else, it had not had the opportunity to rebuild any kind of intelligence operation. So it would have been in no position to even know what, if any, forces the Dominion still had in reserve.

[Keltest]

An empire that had already swallowed the poisoned pill that was the Concordat was not about to "pounce" on a limping gerbil. It was psychologically whipped. As it still is a generation later, but presumably even more so when the scars were still bleeding.

Apart from anything else, it had not had the opportunity to rebuild any kind of intelligence operation. So it would have been in no position to even know what, if any, forces the Dominion still had in reserve.

By all appearances the Empire is still twitchy and ready to draw a generation later. They're either subtle and building up for the fight slow, or angry and chomping for it now. Ulfric was a legionnaire at the time, he certainly would be ready to go to war with the elves, for example.

[veti]

By all appearances the Empire is still twitchy and ready to draw a generation later.

What "appearances" are those? The ones where Tullius is so afraid of offending the Thalmor, he daren't even decline an invitation? Or the ones where the Empire is prepared to kill a substantial chunk of the population of one of its own provinces in order to enforce the Thalmor's imposed laws? The ones where the Thalmor run their own prison and torture chamber in what should be a Legion fort, with no oversight or even access allowed to the Legion, or the ones where the Empire turns prisoners over to them on demand and then daren't even ask what happens to them next?

A few people in the Legion fantasise about liberation, but it's just fantasies. There's absolutely zero sign that anyone, anywhere, has anything resembling an actual plan or timetable for independence.

They're either subtle and building up for the fight slow, or angry and chomping for it now. Ulfric was a legionnaire at the time, he certainly would be ready to go to war with the elves, for example.

Yes, Ulfric totally would be up for that, but he's not allowed to. The Empire would rather fight him themselves, than let him have a go at the Thalmor. That's how whipped they are.

[Keltest]

What "appearances" are those? The ones where Tullius is so afraid of offending the Thalmor, he daren't even decline an invitation? Or the ones where the Empire is prepared to kill a substantial chunk of the population of one of its own provinces in order to enforce the Thalmor's imposed laws? The ones where the Thalmor run their own prison and torture chamber in what should be a Legion fort, with no oversight or even access allowed to the Legion, or the ones where the Empire turns prisoners over to them on demand and then daren't even ask what happens to them next?

A few people in the Legion fantasise about liberation, but it's just fantasies. There's absolutely zero sign that anyone, anywhere, has anything resembling an actual plan or timetable for independence.



Yes, Ulfric totally would be up for that, but he's not allowed to. The Empire would rather fight him themselves, than let him have a go at the Thalmor. That's how whipped they are.

Wow. This is... certainly a take I guess, but it sure doesn't seem to be based on the reality of the games. All the imperials know a war is coming. They know they're preparing for it, that more time favors them, and that Ulfric is hated in part because of how obviously he's playing into the hands of the Thalmor. Heck, Tullius even tells Ulfric to his face how he's screwing up the recovery of humanity and he just shrugs it off!

If the imperial force a smile in front of the elves, it's because they don't want to be the ones to cause an incident that escalates to war before they planned. When they hit, it will be deliberate and thought out.

ETA: Tullius goes to the parties because as a political figure he is obligated to a certain level of superficial politeness, not out of any fear of offending the Thalmor, whose good opinion he is not especially worried about.

[veti]

Wow. This is... certainly a take I guess, but it sure doesn't seem to be based on the reality of the games. All the imperials know a war is coming. They know they're preparing for it, that more time favors them, and that Ulfric is hated in part because of how obviously he's playing into the hands of the Thalmor. Heck, Tullius even tells Ulfric to his face how he's screwing up the recovery of humanity and he just shrugs it off!

If the imperial force a smile in front of the elves, it's because they don't want to be the ones to cause an incident that escalates to war before they planned. When they hit, it will be deliberate and thought out.

ETA: Tullius goes to the parties because as a political figure he is obligated to a certain level of superficial politeness, not out of any fear of offending the Thalmor, whose good opinion he is not especially worried about.

It's a take that's based firmly on the reality of the game. I've cited incidents and locations, I've quoted Tullius's own words. What, exactly, is your take based on besides wishful thinking?

"Escalates to war before they planned" - my left buttock. If the Imperials really wanted to fight the Dominion they'd pull out of Skyrim and tell the Thalmor "sorry, nothing we can do, you want the Nords to stop worshipping Talos, you'll have to do it yourselves". The only coherent reason for not doing that is that they're still freaking terrified of the Thalmor and convinced it's only a matter of time before they get their butts handed to them again.

As for what Tullius tells Ulfric - yeah, even if we assume that what you tell the enemy is likely to be the unvarnished truth, you quote me the line where he mentions fighting the Dominion. The closest he gets is:

"The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."
- which could be a hint at some distant future plans to fight them, but it could just as easily be an expression of general unfocused fear.

Of course, I'm sure he's right. And Ulfric probably knows it too, he's had plenty of time to think about it by now. But from his point of view, what difference does it make? Whatever the reasons for him being in the position he is, he's still right. What's he going to do, give up just when he's won?

[Keltest]

It's a take that's based firmly on the reality of the game. I've cited incidents and locations, I've quoted Tullius's own words. What, exactly, is your take based on besides wishful thinking?

"Escalates to war before they planned" - my left buttock. If the Imperials really wanted to fight the Dominion they'd pull out of Skyrim and tell the Thalmor "sorry, nothing we can do, you want the Nords to stop worshipping Talos, you'll have to do it yourselves". The only coherent reason for not doing that is that they're still freaking terrified of the Thalmor and convinced it's only a matter of time before they get their butts handed to them again.

As for what Tullius tells Ulfric - yeah, even if we assume that what you tell the enemy is likely to be the unvarnished truth, you quote me the line where he mentions fighting the Dominion. The closest he gets is:

"The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."
- which could be a hint at some distant future plans to fight them, but it could just as easily be an expression of general unfocused fear.

Of course, I'm sure he's right. And Ulfric probably knows it too, he's had plenty of time to think about it by now. But from his point of view, what difference does it make? Whatever the reasons for him being in the position he is, he's still right. What's he going to do, give up just when he's won?

You've made a lot of broad assertions and generally attached your own meanings to statements without any actual evidence. Rikke flat out says that the Empire is the best hope against the Dominion when you ask her why she's part of the Legion:

If there's any hope of a long term victory against the Dominion, it's in the Empire. The rebels are only inflaming the tension and weakening the Empire by distracting it from its ultimate aim.

[Errorname]

Rikke flat out says that the Empire is the best hope against the Dominion when you ask her why she's part of the Legion:

Yeah, it is blindingly obvious that both the Empire and Dominion fully expect to be at war again in the imminent future.

The Empire are trying to put it off, because they are not ready (and because they accepted terms designed to shatter their coalition they probably will not be ready) but they are fully expecting a round 2 against the Dominion.

[Keltest]

"What the rebels like to forget is the Empire's the only thing keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim."

-A soldier too afraid to consider fighting the Dominion, apparently.

[Cikomyr2]

"What the rebels like to forget is the Empire's the only thing keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim."

-A soldier too afraid to consider fighting the Dominion, apparently.

And a great job they do that. They keep the Dominion out of Skyrim so much they allow their State Police to patrol the countryside, detain citizens without accountability.

What the Legion and people like you dont seem to understand is that for all intent and purpose, the Thalmor are occupying Skyrim, backed by the Legion's steel. The Legion dont keep track of Thalmor agents and operatives within Imperial territory, they just "intervene" if the Thalmor does a crime within eyesight.

Skyrim is under soft Aldmeri occupation already. Its not like the Thalmor operations restrict themselves to "enforce the White Gold Concordat". They go and do anything that further their agenda, including acting like SS officers stomping on defenseless citizens for the sole purpose of provoking the emotional reaction that has stirred the rebellion.

Skyrim has lived with these "observers" for 20 years. But yhea tell me again how the Legion is keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim. Next you will tell me there's no war in Ba-Sing-Se either.

[Keltest]

So a couple dozen elves with next to no judicial power and a tiny fort stuck between the coast and mountains with no strategic value are an occupying force now?


Yeah, I think I'm done arguing with you.

[Batcathat]

Yeah, it is blindingly obvious that both the Empire and Dominion fully expect to be at war again in the imminent future.

The Empire are trying to put it off, because they are not ready (and because they accepted terms designed to shatter their coalition they probably will not be ready) but they are fully expecting a round 2 against the Dominion.

Yeah, the fact that the Great War 2.0 is probably not that far off is the reason I think starting a civil war is a bad idea, pragmatically speaking. That said, from an emotional point of view it's quite understandable if people no longer want to be part of an empire that's supposed to protect them but instead seemingly bends over and lets the enemy have everything they want for the foreseeable future.

(It's funny, if all I knew about the civil war was the circumstances of the duel that started it, I would've expected Ulfric to be on the pragmatic side and Torygg on the idealistic).

[druid91]

So a couple dozen elves with next to no judicial power and a tiny fort stuck between the coast and mountains with no strategic value are an occupying force now?


Yeah, I think I'm done arguing with you.

Next to no judicial power, and yet they're still arresting and killing people and sending hitsquads. It's also a heck of a lot more than just 'a couple dozen'

[Rynjin]

Next to no judicial power, and yet they're still arresting and killing people and sending hitsquads. It's also a heck of a lot more than just 'a couple dozen'

TIL the Italian mob were actually occupying the United States this whole time

[Divayth Fyr]

TIL the Italian mob were actually occupying the United States this whole time

I mean, by those criteria Skyrim is occupied by at least a few dozen bandit gangs. And half-occupied by just about everyone (since it seems even the ones poor as dirt can send a hitman after you).

[Errorname]

So a couple dozen elves with next to no judicial power and a tiny fort stuck between the coast and mountains with no strategic value are an occupying force now?

It's a little hyperbolic, but there's no way to say "the Empire is letting a sworn enemy's secret police operate within their own territory" that makes the Empire look good.

Yeah, the fact that the Great War 2.0 is probably not that far off is the reason I think starting a civil war is a bad idea, pragmatically speaking. That said, from an emotional point of view it's quite understandable if people no longer want to be part of an empire that's supposed to protect them but instead seemingly bends over and lets the enemy have everything they want for the foreseeable future.

Yeah, I can see why the Imperial leadership thought they could suffer the terms of the Concordat but they seemingly had no awareness of the effect conceding Hammerfell and allowing the Thalmor to ban worship of their top god would have on morale. There was always going to be someone like Ulfric with the ambition to seize power and the scars from fighting in the great war that the Thalmor could leverage into a proper civil war.

[Divayth Fyr]

It's a little hyperbolic, but there's no way to say "the Empire is letting a sworn enemy's secret police operate within their own territory" that makes the Empire look good.

Tbf, the Stormcloaks also have them running around their turf.

[Keltest]

It's a little hyperbolic, but there's no way to say "the Empire is letting a sworn enemy's secret police operate within their own territory" that makes the Empire look good.



Yeah, I can see why the Imperial leadership thought they could suffer the terms of the Concordat but they seemingly had no awareness of the effect conceding Hammerfell and allowing the Thalmor to ban worship of their top god would have on morale. There was always going to be someone like Ulfric with the ambition to seize power and the scars from fighting in the great war that the Thalmor could leverage into a proper civil war.

Unless Skyrim has been independently degenerating for years anyway, I don't think that Civil War was remotely an inevitability. The Talos ban was such a non-thing that the most visible political figure in Skyrim was a Talos worshiper (which I think was even after the Markarth incident made it at least nominally enforced rather than totally ignored) and cities like Markarth and Whiterun had active shrines/temples to Talos still going during the civil war. Ulfric was in a special position to instigate it as a Jarl who already had an army, and with an imperial victory, nobody really thinks there would be another figure with the ability to head that particular cult of personality enough to cause problems.

[druid91]

Tbf, the Stormcloaks also have them running around their turf.

I mean, they vanish from holds Stormcloaks take. So not really? The only real exception is the one at the College of winterhold and it's clear the Jarl of winterhold has no power over the college.

[Keltest]

I mean, they vanish from holds Stormcloaks take. So not really? The only real exception is the one at the College of winterhold and it's clear the Jarl of winterhold has no power over the college.

Also the absolutely massive Thalmor hit team that goes after you in Riften.

And I believe there is an agent that gets into Windhelm as well.