Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)

[veti]

Was the White-Gold Concordat even signed then?

It's never spelled out exactly when all this drama (the moot, nor Ulfric's subsequent challenge/murder of Torygg) happened. But there's a strong impression that it's all pretty recent. The fact that they've only just now got around to executing Roggvir, and Elisif is still thinking about Torygg's burial rites, suggests it was no more than a few weeks ago. Months at most.

The concordat was more than 20 years ago.

There's a lot about the timeline that seems to make no sense, but the sequence of events seems reasonably clear. Most of the time, anyway.

[Rynjin]

He was at that Moot. That's where he made an impression on Torygg in the first place.

Ah, you're right. Though I do question the efficacy of using the Moot to call for secession instead of lobbying for someone else to be picked as High King.

[Keltest]

Especially when Ulfric’s rallying cry, the opposition to the White-Gold Concordat, wasn’t (necessarily) a thing yet. Even if he wanted to be High King or otherwise shake up the status quo before the treaty was signed (decent-sized if), he’d be unlikely to get all that much support. Talos worship is the big draw for nords to the Stormcloak’s side.
Plus, wasn’t he in training to be a Greybeard twenty years ago? Their organization stays out of politics as a rule.

I believe at the time he was fighting in the Great War and was a Thalmor prisoner during the signing of the Concordant. They sent him back to Skyrim to cause trouble and generally be a firebrand after making him think it was his fault that the Dominion was able to do as much damage as it did to the Empire.

[Xihirli]

Oh sorry, I didn’t realize I got my question answered and was going off the assumption that we didn’t really know.

[Errorname]

I saw someone say that Emil Pagliorulo doesn't write story bibles and I believed it immediately. I probably shouldn't, unsourced behind the scene claims that confirm all your worst preconceived notions should be treated with a great deal of suspicion, but it does feel right. Their games are so inconsistent about little details like this that it's completely credible to me that they just do not have a coherent timeline for the backstory elements and are just winging it.

[Cikomyr2]

I saw someone say that Emil Pagliorulo doesn't write story bibles and I believed it immediately. I probably shouldn't, unsourced behind the scene claims that confirm all your worst preconceived notions should be treated with a great deal of suspicion, but it does feel right. Their games are so inconsistent about little details like this that it's completely credible to me that they just do not have a coherent timeline for the backstory elements and are just winging it.

Thats because Bethesda explicitly dont have writers/head writers, they have ***quest designers***.

Most of the egregious things about Skyrim or Fallout 4's main game narrative can be traced to this lack of cohesive theme across the game world. Its a thousand little events designed in silos.

Starfield suffered most egregiously from that.

[Ignimortis]

I'm siding with whoever's against Bethesda, for not letting me just mess up Thalmor operations in any real way beyond random encounters.

[Cikomyr2]

I'm siding with whoever's against Bethesda, for not letting me just mess up Thalmor operations in any real way beyond random encounters.

I was telling a friend the other day the civil war should have been fought on two layers: overt Legion vs Stormcloak, and covert Blades vs Thalmor.

The Thalmor embassy quest should have been the chance to join up with the Thalmor.

The entire Blade vs Greybeards conflict felt manufactured and artificial to the story. Blades vs Thalmor made more sense, and it would also explain why both Blades and Thalmor have representatives at the peace conference.

[Keltest]

What Thalmor operations are there even in Skyrim that you can't disrupt? You can kill their patrols, free their prisoners, de-throne their pawn (or if you prefer, allow him to assert total independence) stop their efforts to claim the Eye of Magnus... probably others that ive forgotten. The only thing you can't really do is literally remove them from Skyrim altogether, and if you side with the Stormcloaks that's kind of an inevitability.

[Errorname]

What Thalmor operations are there even in Skyrim that you can't disrupt? You can kill their patrols, free their prisoners, de-throne their pawn (or if you prefer, allow him to assert total independence) stop their efforts to claim the Eye of Magnus... probably others that ive forgotten. The only thing you can't really do is literally remove them from Skyrim altogether, and if you side with the Stormcloaks that's kind of an inevitability.

It's just Elenwen and the Embassy, which I think frustrates because she seems to be the highest ranking one.

[Keltest]

It's just Elenwen and the Embassy, which I think frustrates because she seems to be the highest ranking one.

At least implicitly she's there to offend and provoke Ulfric rather than out of any actual rank or competence. She was the one who interrogated him when he was captured IIRC.

Curiously, according to the wiki, she actually stops being essential once you kill Alduin, its just that she stays in the embassy in an unreachable part.

[Rynjin]

I was telling a friend the other day the civil war should have been fought on two layers: overt Legion vs Stormcloak, and covert Blades vs Thalmor.

The Thalmor embassy quest should have been the chance to join up with the Thalmor.

The entire Blade vs Greybeards conflict felt manufactured and artificial to the story. Blades vs Thalmor made more sense, and it would also explain why both Blades and Thalmor have representatives at the peace conference.

Blades vs Thalmor would make sense only if they SERIOUSLY overhauled the historic and present competence of the Blades. One of the most frustrating parts about working with the Blades in Skyrim is that they're ****ing useless and always have been (as a political organization, by all accounts the historic Blades were quite good at dragon fightin'). They were never meant to be a super spy organization, and they suck at it both in-lore and from a surface level writing perspective. At least the Blades in Oblivion are cognizant of the fact that they were complete failures as bodyguards; the Blades in Skyrim seem to believe their own hype still for some reason.

Blades vs Thalmor is a fight the Blades already LOST, to the point there are exactly two Blades left in existence, and only one of them is worth a damn...as a scholar, not a spy or fighter.

Blades vs Greybeards at least makes sense if you interpret it as them lashing out against the only organization that stands between them and perceived relevance. With the Greybeards there to dispense wisdom, knowledge, and power to the Dragonborn...what use do the Blades provide? Their sole contribution to the plot is revealing the existence of Dragonrend, and then they become purely irrelevant relics of a bygone era who refuse to just die and save everyone else the hassle of dealing with them.

It's kind of funny to think about Delphine realizing that not only is she a useless waste of air, she has largely been an active HINDRANCE to the fight against Alduin, wasting the Dragonborn's time with pointless theatrics and snipe hunts she should have known better than to pursue on little more than a hunch. From her perspective, she HAS to destroy the actually reliable organization and/or turn the Dragonborn against them just so she can delude herself into thinking the world wouldn't be better off if she just killed herself.

[Cikomyr2]

Blades vs Thalmor would make sense only if they SERIOUSLY overhauled the historic and present competence of the Blades. One of the most frustrating parts about working with the Blades in Skyrim is that they're ****ing useless and always have been (as a political organization, by all accounts the historic Blades were quite good at dragon fightin'). They were never meant to be a super spy organization, and they suck at it both in-lore and from a surface level writing perspective. At least the Blades in Oblivion are cognizant of the fact that they were complete failures as bodyguards; the Blades in Skyrim seem to believe their own hype still for some reason.

Blades vs Thalmor is a fight the Blades already LOST, to the point there are exactly two Blades left in existence, and only one of them is worth a damn...as a scholar, not a spy or fighter.

Blades vs Greybeards at least makes sense if you interpret it as them lashing out against the only organization that stands between them and perceived relevance. With the Greybeards there to dispense wisdom, knowledge, and power to the Dragonborn...what use do the Blades provide? Their sole contribution to the plot is revealing the existence of Dragonrend, and then they become purely irrelevant relics of a bygone era who refuse to just die and save everyone else the hassle of dealing with them.

It's kind of funny to think about Delphine realizing that not only is she a useless waste of air, she has largely been an active HINDRANCE to the fight against Alduin, wasting the Dragonborn's time with pointless theatrics and snipe hunts she should have known better than to pursue on little more than a hunch. From her perspective, she HAS to destroy the actually reliable organization and/or turn the Dragonborn against them just so she can delude herself into thinking the world wouldn't be better off if she just killed herself.

The fact that the blade "already lost the fight" is the reason why its a good faction to bring back as a PC. And it gives a better narrative focus to the Blades than the current rather plotless dragonhunter. They are cool but they hardly make an impact on any plot.

[Rynjin]

It's got potential, but at that point would be an entirely new game. If Skyrim had dropped teh Civil War angle and focused on the Dragonborn rebuilding the Blades and forming alliances in the province to stop Alduin while the Thalmor maneuver and politic around them, I definitely think that would have been more engaging.

But within the setup we have, Thalmor vs Blades is completely nonsensical.

[Errorname]

Honestly I would hate to lose the Civil War. It's not developed as well as it could be, but I still think it's a really useful setting detail to have.

Admittedly I think most RPGs benefit from having a war going on, it's much easier to justify excess combat encounters with humanoid enemies with the handy justification of "there is a war" rather than depicting an ostensibly peacetime society that just happens to have thousands of bandits

[veti]

"Rebuilding the Blades as an anti-Thalmor cadre" is a cool idea, and could have made for a nifty questline, but it would be a lot of work. Too much for Bethesda - they shoehorned two main plots (Alduin and the Civil War) into their game, which is already one more than they really needed, and that strain shows in the lack of depth and testing of what's there.

It could make a great mod, though...

[Errorname]

Too much for Bethesda - they shoehorned two main plots (Alduin and the Civil War) into their game, which is already one more than they really needed, and that strain shows in the lack of depth and testing of what's there.

I don't fully agree with that, I think there's stuff going on with having the Civil War occur in the shadow of a much bigger world ending threat and it would be a shame to lose it, and as mentioned I think a war is a great tool for explaining why the world is in such a state that you can do RPG protagonist stuff.

The actual problem I think is that their planned Civil War questline was super ambitious in a way that they just could not actually finish or make work in their engine, and the end result is kind of underwhelming.

[Cikomyr2]

"Rebuilding the Blades as an anti-Thalmor cadre" is a cool idea, and could have made for a nifty questline, but it would be a lot of work. Too much for Bethesda - they shoehorned two main plots (Alduin and the Civil War) into their game, which is already one more than they really needed, and that strain shows in the lack of depth and testing of what's there.

It could make a great mod, though...

Oh, i am not saying it would be an easy fix.

I am just saying having the Thalmor v Blade conflict existing in parallel to the Legion/Stormcloak contlict would have allowed for better overall conflict. You can shift focus from local political interests to Big Picture questions with these different scale of perspective.

Maybe even have four different resolution of the civil war based on these factions. Ulfric/Tulius endings play as expected. Thalmor ending makes sure the civil war is perpetuated and drags the whole empire in a self-destructive struggle.

Blade ending finishes with a reasonable compromise where all realize the Elves are the real enemy abd the Empire recognize Skyrim autonomy, but still a tributary to the Empire, but under no obligation to enforce the White Gold Concordat (so the Blades are legally allowed to exist in Skyrim, Talos worship is re-established).

Maybe add some shades of grey to both outcome obviously.

[Keltest]

Oh, i am not saying it would be an easy fix.

I am just saying having the Thalmor v Blade conflict existing in parallel to the Legion/Stormcloak contlict would have allowed for better overall conflict. You can shift focus from local political interests to Big Picture questions with these different scale of perspective.

Maybe even have four different resolution of the civil war based on these factions. Ulfric/Tulius endings play as expected. Thalmor ending makes sure the civil war is perpetuated and drags the whole empire in a self-destructive struggle.

Blade ending finishes with a reasonable compromise where all realize the Elves are the real enemy abd the Empire recognize Skyrim autonomy, but still a tributary to the Empire, but under no obligation to enforce the White Gold Concordat (so the Blades are legally allowed to exist in Skyrim, Talos worship is re-established).

Maybe add some shades of grey to both outcome obviously.

Irrespective of anything else, I don't think theres any version where Skyrim is both a part of the empire and not beholden to the Concordant. Thats just not how it works. The Concordant was a peace treaty. Breaking the terms of the peace treaty means the war starts back up again. The Dominion certainly won't snap their fingers, shrug and say "Darn it, you found a loophole, guess theres nothing we can do about it." and then leave Skyrim alone.


Also, the Blades are an Imperial organization that answers to the Emperor. Theyre spies. The Thalmor don't care about a bunch of dragon hunters, they care about intelligence operatives working against them. It doesn't matter whether theyre in Skyrim, Cyrodiil or Morrowind, they're disbanded. Formally. They've been replaced already even.

[veti]

Irrespective of anything else, I don't think theres any version where Skyrim is both a part of the empire and not beholden to the Concordant. Thats just not how it works. The Concordant was a peace treaty. Breaking the terms of the peace treaty means the war starts back up again.

In theory that's true, but not necessarily in practice. It depends whether the Dominion currently has the military and fiscal strength and political will to enforce its terms. If not, then the Empire could just renounce the concordat and be like "whatcha gonna do about it, huh?" Plenty of treaties have ended that way.

It's way speculative of course, but the Hammerfell precedent suggests they're not as strong as they try to make out. And if elves do indeed take longer to mature than humans, the demographic damage of the last war will still be affecting them more than it does the humans.

Also, the Blades are an Imperial organization that answers to the Emperor.

This I don't think is true even in theory. They don't give a damn about the emperor, and there's no evidence that he even knows they exist. If the Dragonborn rebuilds them with their picked people, then the Dragonborn will have a big say in determining their mission.

[Keltest]

The Blades don't exist. That's my point. They were formally disbanded. Delphine and Esbern are for all intents and purposes a different group using the name for historical purposes. They don't even have the same mission as the Blades, to the point where Elenwen doesn't even care when she's in the same room as them.

[Batcathat]

In theory that's true, but not necessarily in practice. It depends whether the Dominion currently has the military and fiscal strength and political will to enforce its terms. If not, then the Empire could just renounce the concordat and be like "whatcha gonna do about it, huh?" Plenty of treaties have ended that way.

True, but considering the Empire accepted the ridiculously unfavorable terms to begin with, it seems likely that the Dominion at the very least had the upper hand at the time (though presumably not enough for them to attempt to finish the job) and while it's possible that the Empire has recovered their losses to a greater degree, I doubt they'd want to risk open war with the Dominion.

[GloatingSwine]

Irrespective of anything else, I don't think theres any version where Skyrim is both a part of the empire and not beholden to the Concordant. Thats just not how it works. The Concordant was a peace treaty. Breaking the terms of the peace treaty means the war starts back up again. The Dominion certainly won't snap their fingers, shrug and say "Darn it, you found a loophole, guess theres nothing we can do about it." and then leave Skyrim alone.

They might want to do something about it, but they've actually got to do it.

Skyrim is about the furthest away from the Dominion's lands you can get on Tamriel, it has naturally defensive terrain all around and everything in between is hostile by land and by sea, which means that even if they can send a force to skyrim without it being waylaid by Maormer, Sload, or Argonians they also have to guard against hostile Redguard on a land front on the borders of Elsweyr and Valenwood and watch for landings on the eastern coast of at least Auridon.

Trying to conduct a long distance war in hostile territory when you have threats closer to home is a bad plan.

[Batcathat]

They might want to do something about it, but they've actually got to do it.

Skyrim is about the furthest away from the Dominion's lands you can get on Tamriel, it has naturally defensive terrain all around and everything in between is hostile by land and by sea, which means that even if they can send a force to skyrim without it being waylaid by Maormer, Sload, or Argonians they also have to guard against hostile Redguard on a land front on the borders of Elsweyr and Valenwood and watch for landings on the eastern coast of at least Auridon.

Trying to conduct a long distance war in hostile territory when you have threats closer to home is a bad plan.

But if the Dominion think the Empire is trying to find a loophole (and want/can go to war), they presumably won't just attack a sort-of-independent Skyrim, but the Empire proper. Which would also be a challenge, obviously, but clearly a possibility at least the Empire is wanting to avoid, hence why the follow the Concordant to begin with.

[veti]

But if the Dominion think the Empire is trying to find a loophole (and want/can go to war), they presumably won't just attack a sort-of-independent Skyrim, but the Empire proper. Which would also be a challenge, obviously, but clearly a possibility at least the Empire is wanting to avoid, hence why the follow the Concordant to begin with.

The Empire is scared stiff of the Dominion. In their minds, they got their backside thoroughly whupped last time, and only the concordat saved them from complete annihilation.

But the truth (which some in the Empire suspect, but to say it out loud would be sedition) is that the Dominion were stretched to breaking point themselves by the end of the war, they were in no fit state to keep going either. The concordat was a triumph of Dominion diplomacy. There's no way the Dominion could have enforced it if the Empire hadn't lost its nerve, but they did. And that was the moment the Empire stopped being an empire. (Because an emperor, by definition, is someone who has no earthly superiors and answers to nobody but the gods, and the Cyrodiilic "Emperor" no longer fits that definition.)

"Victory is the ability to keep fighting five minutes longer than the other army" - the Duke of Wellington. The Dominion won the war, but it would have been a pyrrhic victory if the Empire hadn't rolled over and agreed to become their de facto vassal.

[Aragehaor]

I do think we are, perhaps overestimating the White-Gold Concordant as an Dominion victory just a bit. The terms of the treaty are fairly simple.


A large portion of southern Hammerfell would be given to the Dominion
The Blades were to be disbanded.
Talos worship would be banned from the Empire


Of these, Hammerfell fights on, possibly with imperial support, and has bogged down dominion forces for years - before winning

The Blades were only occasionally useful, and disbanding does little to stop the empire from forming new intelligence and royal guard agencies, so can only really be considered a PR victory for the Thalmor.

Talos worship is the only condition that i would consider and outright win for the Thalmor, and while it is unpleasant, is ultimately not a strategic concern for the empire (although i would argue they should have and did expect skyrim to resent this, and simply failed to handle that problem sufficiently, ultimately causing the Markath incident and a further concession (limited to skyrim)

Had the empire been able to stop Skyrim from revolting (If only the dark brotherhood wasn't in a deep decline, Ulfric and a few other notables could of been quietly disposed of with minimal problems!) the actual terms of the treaty provide no damage to the empire (aside from the loss of hammerfell, but given that Hammerfell emerged victorious, it at least did not overly benefit the Thalmor)

Overall, i think its a little unreasonable to consider the White-Gold concordant as an complete imperial defeat, i'd consider it closer to a pyrrhic victory for the Thalmor then anything else, its an acceptable treaty for the imperials given their condition at the time. (Though in Paradox terms i personally believe it would of been far better for the empire to really Death War this one, as the empire can't really afford to just keep accepting the continual dismantlement of the empire each war.)


No, the real bouts of imperial incompetence and problems would be the previous Imperial-Thalmor conflicts, where the empire, as the reigning super power in the world, allowed itself to be defeated by the Thalmor and lost large swathes of territory forever. I don't know if there are any actual sources describing that conflict in detail, but i can only imagine gross imperial incompetence was on display for them to lose as badly as they did to the Thalmor, its not like they were fighting the Dwemer.

[GloatingSwine]

But if the Dominion think the Empire is trying to find a loophole (and want/can go to war), they presumably won't just attack a sort-of-independent Skyrim, but the Empire proper. Which would also be a challenge, obviously, but clearly a possibility at least the Empire is wanting to avoid, hence why the follow the Concordant to begin with.

Yeah, and that's not an independent Skyrim's problem. Remember this is in the context of whether Skyrim will be bound by the white-gold concordat after secession from the Empire.

Politically it has every reason not to be, one of the primary motives for the rebellion is the banning of the worship of Talos (Tiber Septim ascendant, a Nord, and so most popular in his homeland), and the Dominion doesn't have the strength to force it.

[Batcathat]

Yeah, and that's not an independent Skyrim's problem. Remember this is in the context of whether Skyrim will be bound by the white-gold concordat after secession from the Empire.

Politically it has every reason not to be, one of the primary motives for the rebellion is the banning of the worship of Talos (Tiber Septim ascendant, a Nord, and so most popular in his homeland), and the Dominion doesn't have the strength to force it.

Sure, Skyrim would obviously not be bound by it, my point was that the Dominion would likely see the sort of half-independent Skyrim Cikomyr2 suggested as the Empire trying to find a loophole in the Concordat, so the Empire would be unlikely to accept such a solution (unless they're willing to fight the Dominion, in which case they might as well just break the Concordant outright).

[Cikomyr2]

Sure, Skyrim would obviously not be bound by it, my point was that the Dominion would likely see the sort of half-independent Skyrim Cikomyr2 suggested as the Empire trying to find a loophole in the Concordat, so the Empire would be unlikely to accept such a solution (unless they're willing to fight the Dominion, in which case they might as well just break the Concordant outright).

To which the Empire can just say "no" and "enforce it yourself". The Thalmor were able to enforce the White Gold Concordat in Markath because no army stood in their way.

In this case, the Thalmor is invited to try an enforce the white Gold concordat on an independant skyrim. But that's between them and whomever is High King. The Empire already tried imposing the white gold concordat itself in that province and failed. Oh well.

[Batcathat]

To which the Empire can just say "no" and "enforce it yourself". The Thalmor were able to enforce the White Gold Concordat in Markath because no army stood in their way.

In this case, the Thalmor is invited to try an enforce the white Gold concordat on an independant skyrim. But that's between them and whomever is High King. The Empire already tried imposing the white gold concordat itself in that province and failed. Oh well.

If the Empire have the strength – and the guts – to say "no" to the Dominion, why are they following the Concordat at all?