Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)

[GloatingSwine]

My dude nobody is discussing systems of government. This is 100% about the capability of the government. Which is bad, because it got kicked in the teeth in a war and signed a treaty so one sided it is indistinguishable from surrender and has lost authority over 4/5 of its holdings.

[Keltest]

My dude nobody is discussing systems of government. This is 100% about the capability of the government. Which is bad, because it got kicked in the teeth in a war and signed a treaty so one sided it is indistinguishable from surrender and has lost authority over 4/5 of its holdings.

If he doesn't want to talk about it, He shoukd probably stop bringing up about how the Emperor is at the top of the government then.

[Cikomyr2]

I'm reading it fine, I simply find your talking points irrelevant to the Stormcloak vs Imperial argument. They're a list of reasons why you, Cikomyr, find the Empire to be bad as a form of government. As I said a while back, I'm not touching that because discussing the merits of governmental systems is too close to the line on forum rules for my comfort, but just as relevant is that Ulfric is acting for entirely different reasons than you say, whether you take him at his word about his motives or think he's just power hungry.

Lets try this, one more time.

The whole point about "the emperor at the top" is the notion that the provinces and those under the Emperor have no recourse. There isnt a supreme court, there isnt a feudal contract, there isnt a Magna Carta. It is absolutist top-down power structure, where the guy at the top says the law and those under him comply or rebel, either subtly or blatantly.

It isnt a fundamentally good or bad system in the context of Skyrim the game, as there are no "representative" system of governance brought on the table. The Moot is just an oligarchy of local rulers, but they have had no actual say for centuries and even Ulfric considers them a nuisance to game rather than a legitimate balance of power.

Therefore, if the paradigm we are to accept is one of top-down power with no way for anyone at the bottom of the chain to protest upward, the fact that the Empire is such a system or Ulfric wants to have such a system is not a knock on either side.

Got that? You want me to repeat one more time? I haven't actually made a point yet, I've only explained why the thing you claim im saying is bonkers and stupid.

Here's the problem: a pure top-down system is only as good as the prioritization of the guy at the top. A pure top down system ensures a united command structure of the state. In this case; the Imperial Legions all answer to the Emperor and can be concentrated or disseminated at the Emperor's will. As long as the Emperor and the Empire fulfill their duty as overlord to their provinces, the system will work properly.

Why is it a problem? If the Emperor is more taken with his own brand of local politics rather than the proper governance of the whole system, then the central government becomes a liability to the whole system.

We don't know the politicking details Titus Medes II has had to do to gain and keep power. But we know his closest advisors on the High Council have conspired to assassinate him and his policy in the Great War was sacrificing provinces for the benefit of Cyrodill when needed. The Medes Emperors are just a line descended from the savviest warlord who emerged on top during the power struggle that resulted from the death of the Septim bloodline. Its hardly a surprise that this weaker legitimacy lead to leaders more focused on playing Cyrodillian politics to keep their throne than leaders prioritizing the good running of the Empire, including all of its provinces.

And thus, when the capital was sacked and conquered by the elves, he recalled all his legions from Hammerfell to abandon it to the Aldemari Dominion, because preserving Cyrodill was more important than defending Hammerfell. After he utterly destroyed the Aldemari armies in Cyrodill, he signed a treaty that acquiesced to all demands the Dominion presented him prior to the war, because his priority was stabilizing his position as ruler of Cyrodill more than protecting the people of Hammerfell or protecting the worship of Talos.

Because Titus Medes II is weak. His grasp on Cyrodill is weak, and he has to divest the resource of the entire Empire to maintain it. He sacrificed Hammerfell for it. He surrendered to the Elves and gave them everything they asked for for it because they managed to give Cyrodill a bloody nose, and that is explicitly the Medes Emperors' achile heel.

It has nothing to do with the fact the Emperor is, De Jure, the absolute uncontested leader of all provinces and his Word is Law. It has everything to do with the fact that the Emperor is, de facto, only keeping that official authority through keeping Cyrodill under his control, and is willing to throw provinces, gods and young Nords' lives in the fire to preserve that control.

And that is what Ulfric is fighting against. Not the idea of an absolutist ruler - because he clearly wants the same - but the idea that the Absolutist Ruler should dispose of Skyrim's tribute purely for the benefit of Cyrodillian priorities.

If the next war happens, and Skyrim and Cyrodill were to be the two locations where the Dominion will attack (kind of how they attacked Cyrodill and Hammerfell), do you believe the Emperor would defend both territories with the same fervor, or would he recall his legions of Nords from Skyrim to protect Cyrodill at all cost?

Ulfric - and me - believe that he wouldnt.

[GloatingSwine]

If he doesn't want to talk about it, He shoukd probably stop bringing up about how the Emperor is at the top of the government then.

The Emperor has made his decision, now let him enforce it!

[Mr Blobby]

Way too much of your argument, Cikomyr is based on pure conjecture. For example, we do not know how serious Cyrodill was devastated during the Dominion invasion [they took all cities at some point with the exception of Bruma] nor how much reserve personnel the Empire could tap to continue the war. It is possible that after the liberation of the Imperial City, Titus was informed that not only did they realistically lack the reserves to raise new legions to continue the war, they didn't even have enough to bring up to strength the severely battered legions which he did still have.

While we do not know the whole story of the war, the 'Battle of the Red Ring' was a clear application of the 'force concentration' doctrine; Titus managed to encircle Naarifin's forces in the Imperial City, then utterly destroy them by achieving 'local numerical superiority'. We know enough that said battle caused the loss of 'about half' of Imperial combat capacity - without the legion from Hammerfell, that victory might have been a defeat. Where would the Empire be then?

You are also assuming that Titus picked to 'save' Cyrodill simply because it was Cyrodill. Again, conjecture. He may have judged Naarifin to be the greater threat of the pair of armies. Or it might have been easier to move one army to Cyrodill than attempt to move two to Hammerfell [to rout Arannelya's forces]. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, Naarifin was consorting with Daedra lords - it's possible Titus was advised/warned that they needed to deal with him before he truly managed to throw the dung at the windmill a la Oblivion Crisis.

The only bit which can be really debated is whether the Concordat needed to be signed at this point, and if that answer was 'yes' how much needed to be surrendered to get it. But this can only be debated 'in principle' because we don't know enough details; another example, how much forces the Dominion had left, and more importantly what Titus' intelligence was telling him about that.

[Cikomyr2]

But you oppose my arguments with as much conjecture and supposition, if not more.

The fact that we do know is that Titus abandoned Hammerfell to the elves. Why he did it is in his heart. But he did it.

The fact that we do know is that Titus stopped fighting after crushing the elves in Cyrodill. Why he did it, we don't have enough information.

The fact that we do know, is that he signed the Concordat after crushing the elves, giving away Hammerfell and Talos.

What we do know is that the Aldmeri Dominion never managed to properly conquer Hammerfell even when it wasnt distracted by a war with the Empire at the same time, and Hammerfell fought them off without the Empire support.

What we do know is that what Titus Medes II gave to the Dominion is what they demanded of him in the ultimatum that led to war. He exacted no compromise whatsoever from them.

Everything else is projection and hypothesis. I personally believe the Emperor being distracted dealing with Cyrodillian politics to keep the the throne - because it plays in the historical parallel with roman emperors more focused on capital politics than safeguarding their borders. Because this is exactly what Ulfric Stormcloak is denouncing the Empire over.

[Keltest]

But you oppose my arguments with as much conjecture and supposition, if not more.

The fact that we do know is that Titus abandoned Hammerfell to the elves. Why he did it is in his heart. But he did it.

The fact that we do know is that Titus stopped fighting after crushing the elves in Cyrodill. Why he did it, we don't have enough information.

The fact that we do know, is that he signed the Concordat after crushing the elves, giving away Hammerfell and Talos.

What we do know is that the Aldmeri Dominion never managed to properly conquer Hammerfell even when it wasnt distracted by a war with the Empire at the same time, and Hammerfell fought them off without the Empire support.

What we do know is that what Titus Medes II gave to the Dominion is what they demanded of him in the ultimatum that led to war. He exacted no compromise whatsoever from them.

Everything else is projection and hypothesis. I personally believe the Emperor being distracted dealing with Cyrodillian politics to keep the the throne - because it plays in the historical parallel with roman emperors more focused on capital politics than safeguarding their borders. Because this is exactly what Ulfric Stormcloak is denouncing the Empire over.

You're overstating the degree to which he beat the elves. He forced them into a position of, essentially, mutually assured destruction. The compromise is that the elves get out of the Empire and stop killing everyone.

[Mr Blobby]

We don't know that either. But that's the point; not only do we not know enough details of the 'ratio of forces' at the point where negotiations for the Concordat began we don't know what each side knew of the opponent's strengths either. Or of the negotiations either.

It is all conjecture. Which was the point I was making before.

[Keltest]

We don't know that either. But that's the point; not only do we not know enough details of the 'ratio of forces' at the point where negotiations for the Concordat began we don't know what each side knew of the opponent's strengths either. Or of the negotiations either.

It is all conjecture. Which was the point I was making before.

We know that neither side felt that they could definitively win/survive continued warfare with the other, otherwise they would have just continued the war and won.

[Mr Blobby]

I wouldn't say we know that for sure [Tamriel does have more 'Outside Context Problems' re Aedra, Daedra etc], but I'm happy chalking that up under 'reasonable assumption'.

[Errorname]

We know that neither side felt that they could definitively win/survive continued warfare with the other, otherwise they would have just continued the war and won.

We also know that the Dominion were able to compel the Empire into signing a deal with terms wildly slanted in the Elves' favour, so either Mede was a weak negotiator or the Dominion still had the edge, potentially both.

[Mr Blobby]

Or the Dominion was able to convince the Empire they were stronger than they actually were. It's possible that they had zero reserves in Summerset to replace the army lost in Cyrodiil - meaning that the Empire might have been able to defeat the Hammerfell army and then propose a status quo cease-fire [keeping both Talos and Hammerfell].

[veti]

Elisif flat out says that if Ulfric had just talked to Torygg about it, like at all, even just suggesting that they could do it, Torygg would have told the Empire to get stuffed. The fact is, his death was totally unnecessary, except to prove Ulfric's individual power. That's why all the imperials call it murder. Ulfric put Torygg in a position where his death was the only possible outcome.

Citation? I can't find mention of Elisif saying any of that. The only person who comes close to it is Sybille, and as I've argued before, she is an unreliable witness who is outright speculating half the time (and has a terrible track record of personal insight). And even she doesn't say he "would" have done it, only "might".

He kinda did. Remember that he was invited to court to parley with Torygg, who sympathized greatly with Ulfric. Torygg invited Ulfric there specifically to be convinced that independence was in the best interests of Skyrim.

Again, citation?

The only person I know of who talks at any length about Torygg's death is Sybille, and she just doesn't say any of that. She doesn't say Ulfric was "invited" there at all. The phrase she uses is that he just "turned up" one day requesting an audience.

I'll note that Torygg wasn't king for very long. There is every possibility he was killed before he ever had a chance to do anything.

The only reasonably impartial opinion I can find about Torygg's record as king is from Sayma:

And between you and me? He wasn't even that good a king. All of those rambling speeches about the Empire this, and the Empire that...

The idea that they're inept and uncaring comes from...doing literally any of the quests that take place in Windhelm. Blood on the Ice is the biggest example, where all that would need to be done to find the killer is to follow the obvious TRAIL OF BLOOD leading away from the crime scene, but the guard is not interested in doing so.

To be a little more precise - "Blood on the Ice" is the only example. UESP lists a whole heap of quests located or starting in Windhelm. One other one that touches upon the guards' attitude is "Innocence Lost", where they decline to stop Aventus Aretino from performing the Black Sacrament. But in that context, it should be pointed out that no guards anywhere see it as their business to interfere with the Black Sacrament, and I can see why.

As far as stopping it, we don't know what the circumstances were in court that day, but the Blue Palace does not have an abundance of warriors on hand the way, say, Dragonsreach has. Elisif certainly isnt going to stop Ulfric.

What are you talking about? The Blue Palace has plenty of guards, Torygg presumably had his housecarl, we know the court mage was there... There was no shortage of muscle on hand, if anyone had called for it.

Ok, then we're back to that being flat out incorrect. We know there were other battles because Ulfric and Tullius talk about them.

"We" are indeed flat out incorrect. Please quote the actual lines they say. The "massacre at Karthwasten" story is notably disputed by both sides, the only real massacre I can see any sign of there is the one where the Dragonborn kills all the Silver-Blood mercenaries - and if there had been another one, which has somehow been completely forgotten by every survivor, surely the finger of suspicion should first point to the Forsworn. There was fighting between the sides, certainly, and deaths - but "battles"? Name one.

I find it telling that so much of the evidence mentioned in this thread is outright hallucinated. Once people decide Ulfric is a villain, their brain fills in backstory that just isn't there in the actual text. Of course it helps that various modders have all added their two-penn'orth of content, which is at best subjective interpretations of the canonical lore (and in some cases, flatly contradict it).

Wiser heads in Skyrim itself maintain neutrality in the war. Kodlak does, and Arngeir, and we can see Viarmo actively resisting pressure from his own students and faculty to declare a preference. And Savos Aren - a Dunmer - although in his case nobody seems to expect anything else. The only priests affected by the outcome of the Civil War - indeed, the only people of any kind other than direct participants - are the priesthood of Talos; Rorlund, in Solitude, will seamlessly switch from introducing himself as "high priest of the eight divines" to "nine divines" without even acknowledging that he might just possibly have subscribed to a theological error at some stage.

Personally, in perhaps a hundred playthroughs of Skyrim (with various mods), I've only attempted the Civil War twice for the Imperials (the second time to try out a mod) and once for the Stormcloaks. Because both sides, quite simply, suck. I've thought it through scores of times, and my considered moral judgment is that I'd leave them in their play-acted stalemate, rather than put either candidate on an actual throne. At the moment, what we see is a de facto division of the country into three parts whose relations can, indeed, best be described as "cold war", because neither side is willing to make a move until the Dragonborn gives them a kick up the keyster. And that seems to me like the most reasonable resolution. Give it a few years, everyone will realise that this "war" isn't really going anywhere and things will normalise this way.

[Errorname]

Or the Dominion was able to convince the Empire they were stronger than they actually were.

I think that's covered under "Mede is a weak negotiator". Either the Empire could have held out for better terms but let themselves be pressured into accepting a terrible deal or the Dominion had enough of a military advantage that they could force deeply unfavourable terms.

[Cikomyr2]

We know that neither side felt that they could definitively win/survive continued warfare with the other, otherwise they would have just continued the war and won.

Actually that is not true.

The Aldemeri Dominion delivered and ultimatum to surrender Hammerfell and stop worship of Talos, or face war.

Titus Medes stopped the war by giving up Hammerfell, and banned worship of Talos.

Seems like one side folded. The idea it was mutually decided is total revisionist BS.

[Rynjin]

Again, citation?

The only person I know of who talks at any length about Torygg's death is Sybille, and she just doesn't say any of that. She doesn't say Ulfric was "invited" there at all. The phrase she uses is that he just "turned up" one day requesting an audience.

Citation is the same dialogue you're citing, just a different interpretation. It is unlikely that Ulfric showed up completely unexpectedly. So they would have at least been informed he was coming to Solitude, and it's implied that Torygg's court expected Ulfric to be showing up to parley. Else he would have been stopped.

The only reasonably impartial opinion I can find about Torygg's record as king is from Sayma:

That is neither impartial, nor especially descriptive.

To be a little more precise - "Blood on the Ice" is the only example. UESP lists a whole heap of quests located or starting in Windhelm. One other one that touches upon the guards' attitude is "Innocence Lost", where they decline to stop Aventus Aretino from performing the Black Sacrament. But in that context, it should be pointed out that no guards anywhere see it as their business to interfere with the Black Sacrament, and I can see why.

I don't think a guard's conviction to interrupt the Black Sacrament is ever tested, and I don't find "well everybody else just lets it slide!" a compelling defense of their competence and avid pursuit of jutsice in any case.

Even if Blood on the Ice were the only example, it'd be a pretty resounding one. But it's not. The Dark Bortherhood questline in general has another example with Muiri and more broadly the death of the remaining women of the Shattershield clan, which the guards seem either apathetic or incapable of investigating as well.

One could argue that allowing the death of the homeless and unfortunate to go uninvestigated is apathy, but an apathy other guards in other provinces would share. Failing to investigate the deaths of not one, but TWO 9three, indirectly) noblewomen from the same house is pretty telling.

[veti]

Citation is the same dialogue you're citing, just a different interpretation. It is unlikely that Ulfric showed up completely unexpectedly. So they would have at least been informed he was coming to Solitude, and it's implied that Torygg's court expected Ulfric to be showing up to parley. Else he would have been stopped.

Oh, I see. So your citation is the same as my citation, except for the part where I'm citing what it actually says, whereas you're citing what you remember it as saying:

He kinda did. Remember that he was invited to court to parley with Torygg, who sympathized greatly with Ulfric. Torygg invited Ulfric there specifically to be convinced that independence was in the best interests of Skyrim.

Remember that ...

Just to be clear here, what Sybille says is:

Ulfric showed up at the gates of Solitude requesting an audience. We thought he was here to ask Torygg to declare independence. By the time we realized Ulfric was here to challenge Torygg... it was already too late.

How you can read "was invited to a peace conference" into that is beyond me. There's no suggestion that Ulfric was even expected, let alone "invited to court to parley with Torygg".

See, this is what I mean by "hallucinated evidence". Your memory is distorted. That's why it's important to check and cite the actual words used. Sometimes you find your memory was wrong, and then it's probably best either to come up with an alternative citation, or to refrain from making or defending an argument that won't stand. I've done that more than once in this thread.

That is neither impartial, nor especially descriptive.

I agree it's not very descriptive, but it's the only piece of description (that I can remember) from someone who, unlike Elisif and Sybille, isn't personally deeply invested in the cult of Torygg the Martyr. Nor is she, as far as we can tell, a Stormcloak sympathiser - she's just an ordinary working citizen of Solitude. That's what I mean by "impartial".

I don't think a guard's conviction to interrupt the Black Sacrament is ever tested, and I don't find "well everybody else just lets it slide!" a compelling defense of their competence and avid pursuit of jutsice in any case.

What do you think the Dark Brotherhood would do, if guards took it upon themselves to interrupt people performing the BS? What do you think Sithis would do? My guess is, it wouldn't be pretty. I don't blame any guards anywhere for not wanting to be on the sharp end of testing that scenario.

Even if Blood on the Ice were the only example, it'd be a pretty resounding one. But it's not. The Dark Bortherhood questline in general has another example with Muiri and more broadly the death of the remaining women of the Shattershield clan, which the guards seem either apathetic or incapable of investigating as well.

One could argue that allowing the death of the homeless and unfortunate to go uninvestigated is apathy, but an apathy other guards in other provinces would share. Failing to investigate the deaths of not one, but TWO 9three, indirectly) noblewomen from the same house is pretty telling.

Okay, but what you said was:

The idea that they're inept and uncaring comes from...doing literally any of the quests that take place in Windhelm.

"Literally any". Mind you, there aren't that many quests that actually "take place in Windhelm" (and Mourning Never Comes, your second example, isn't one of them - only one small, and optional, part of that quest takes place there, and the guards act the same as they do anywhere else - which is to say, if you kill the victim in their sight they'll try to arrest you, but otherwise they don't really try too hard), but there are several that don't give you any bad feeling about the guards. Unless, of course, you're already primed with bad feelings about them and determined to see them in a bad light whenever you encounter them.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the guards in Windhelm. They are indeed a big part of the reason why I can't bring myself to support Ulfric. But they're not that much worse than those anywhere else. The guards in Whiterun do nothing to obstruct a crowd of obvious bandits (the Silver Hand) who come to raid one of the most prominent buildings in the city. The guards in Solitude are apparently indifferent to the Blackblood Marauders, despite merchants vocally complaining about the group by name. And do I even need to mention Markarth?

[Errorname]

I agree it's not very descriptive, but it's the only piece of description (that I can remember) from someone who, unlike Elisif and Sybille, isn't personally deeply invested in the cult of Torygg the Martyr. Nor is she, as far as we can tell, a Stormcloak sympathiser - she's just an ordinary working citizen of Solitude. That's what I mean by "impartial".

Sayma is one person with a low opinion of Torygg who would have had few direct interactions with him. She's not useless as a source, but calling her impartial and privileging her account over the people who had much closer connections to Torygg isn't ideal.

[Mr Blobby]

I think that's covered under "Mede is a weak negotiator". Either the Empire could have held out for better terms but let themselves be pressured into accepting a terrible deal or the Dominion had enough of a military advantage that they could force deeply unfavourable terms.

Not really. You're not 'a weak negotiator' if you are suffer from a GIGO situation. However, it can be argued that perhaps you aren't good at finding a decent spymaster who could infiltrate enough of the Dominion to produce accurate reports - though in mitigation it appears most if not all the Empire's intelligence network was neutralised by the Dominion some time before the war, which was partly why they were caught totally off-guard.

Actually that is not true.

The Aldemeri Dominion delivered and ultimatum to surrender Hammerfell and stop worship of Talos, or face war.

Titus Medes stopped the war by giving up Hammerfell, and banned worship of Talos.

Seems like one side folded. The idea it was mutually decided is total revisionist BS.

If the Dominion had felt they could have scored a total KO on the Empire at this point; chances are they would have attempted it. The fact they didn't suggests they were not confident of a 'final victory' at this point. If we make a guestimate 'warscore' a la Europa Universalis the Dominion still had at least one major army left [Arannelya's in Hammerfell], most of the Cyrodiil cities were still held by Dominion garrisons and perhaps the loss of Naarifin's army being balanced out by the loss of the Imperial forces lost before this.

Yes, the Empire was defeated - but not routed. Your suggestion that it was basically a Dominion diktat imposed on the Empire without a word in negotiation is again, pure conjecture on your part.

[SirKazum]

Just to be clear here, what Sybille says is:

Ulfric showed up at the gates of Solitude requesting an audience. We thought he was here to ask Torygg to declare independence. By the time we realized Ulfric was here to challenge Torygg... it was already too late.

How you can read "was invited to a peace conference" into that is beyond me. There's no suggestion that Ulfric was even expected, let alone "invited to court to parley with Torygg".

But the very quote you're using doesn't say that Ulfric suddenly appeared in front of Torygg, sword in hand. Unless Torygg was working as a gate guard that day. And she does mention "requesting an audience". Seems pretty clear to me that Ulfric let Torygg know that he wanted to meet, and then met him under invitation (not a spontaneous invitation, but still). His intentions for that meeting were unexpected, but not his presence.

[Cikomyr2]

If the Dominion had felt they could have scored a total KO on the Empire at this point; chances are they would have attempted it. The fact they didn't suggests they were not confident of a 'final victory' at this point.

Now who is conjoncturing? You dont know why they felt they didnt score a final blow. Maybe they believed the Empire giving up to all their demands was sufficient seeds sown to start undermining the Empire on the long run. Hammerfell is one of the top provider of warrior levies, and Talos worship is central to the other main source of warrior levies. The Dominion effectively put into motion the dismantling of the whole Empire with this treaty.

If we make a guestimate 'warscore' a la Europa Universalis the Dominion still had at least one major army left [Arannelya's in Hammerfell], most of the Cyrodiil cities were still held by Dominion garrisons and perhaps the loss of Naarifin's army being balanced out by the loss of the Imperial forces lost before this.

Yes, the Empire was defeated - but not routed. Your suggestion that it was basically a Dominion diktat imposed on the Empire without a word in negotiation is again, pure conjecture on your part.

You believe what you want, but even in Europa Universalis when one side in a conflict complies with most demands of the other he can be considered to have effectively lost the war.

The provinces of the Empire fought of the Elves better than the whole did. Its a sad state of affairs.

[veti]

Now who is conjoncturing? You dont know why they felt they didnt score a final blow. Maybe they believed the Empire giving up to all their demands was sufficient seeds sown to start undermining the Empire on the long run. Hammerfell is one of the top provider of warrior levies, and Talos worship is central to the other main source of warrior levies. The Dominion effectively put into motion the dismantling of the whole Empire with this treaty.

From a purely strategic point of view, why would the Dominion continue fighting when the Empire had effectively signed its own death warrant? What's the point in "delivering a final blow" at that stage? It would certainly cost them more resources, and they'd gain nothing more than they already had.

For my own conjecture, I'd guess the Thalmor are actually happier with a weak, cowed Empire still in place than they would be with Cyrodiil, Skyrim and High Rock as fully independent countries. An Empire like that can be outmanoeuvred, manipulated, undermined - as we see happening right now in Skyrim. The Empire's presence there now is doing nothing but harm, it's become a massive distraction for both parties from the real enemy.

Independent provinces would be individually stronger, more dynamic and unpredictable, and you couldn't guarantee that they wouldn't all ally against you anyway, which would make them, collectively, quite a lot stronger than the Empire in its current state.

[Keltest]

Given that the Dominion can't even subjugate Hammerfell, I think it's safe to say their military position genuinely was precarious at the end of the last war, and that they ceased aggression due to lack of ability rather than due to wanting to twirl their mustaches as the Empire had trouble.

[Rynjin]

Oh, I see. So your citation is the same as my citation, except for the part where I'm citing what it actually says, whereas you're citing what you remember it as saying:





Just to be clear here, what Sybille says is:



How you can read "was invited to a peace conference" into that is beyond me. There's no suggestion that Ulfric was even expected, let alone "invited to court to parley with Torygg".

See, this is what I mean by "hallucinated evidence". Your memory is distorted. That's why it's important to check and cite the actual words used. Sometimes you find your memory was wrong, and then it's probably best either to come up with an alternative citation, or to refrain from making or defending an argument that won't stand. I've done that more than once in this thread.

What you call "hallucination" I call "extrapolation". Nothing in the quote contradicts what I say, and it largely backs up my interpretation.

Because at the end of the day, the Civil War plotline is...not. It's an outline of a premise of a plot that was never properly elaborated on. If we go by the strict text and what's shown in the game, there isn't even a Civil War at all. It's a **** measuring contest between Ulfric, Tullius, and like a couple dozen guys on each side, at best.

My extrapolation is that the straight text of "Ulfric showed up completely unannounced after preaching rebellion against the Empire and we just let him in because we're idiots" doesn't make much sense, but "He showed up and we thought he had peaceful intentions" holds a lot more water.

What do you think the Dark Brotherhood would do, if guards took it upon themselves to interrupt people performing the BS? What do you think Sithis would do? My guess is, it wouldn't be pretty. I don't blame any guards anywhere for not wanting to be on the sharp end of testing that scenario.

Basically nothing, because the Dark Brotherhood consists of like 6 people, total, and they are largely that way because they lost a scuffle with random thugs after spending two straight centuries getting ground into dust by various political factions looking for easy wins. The Brotherhood is a shadow of a whisper of its former self and everyone knows it.

Okay, but what you said was:

"Literally any". Mind you, there aren't that many quests that actually "take place in Windhelm" (and Mourning Never Comes, your second example, isn't one of them - only one small, and optional, part of that quest takes place there, and the guards act the same as they do anywhere else - which is to say, if you kill the victim in their sight they'll try to arrest you, but otherwise they don't really try too hard), but there are several that don't give you any bad feeling about the guards. Unless, of course, you're already primed with bad feelings about them and determined to see them in a bad light whenever you encounter them.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the guards in Windhelm. They are indeed a big part of the reason why I can't bring myself to support Ulfric. But they're not that much worse than those anywhere else. The guards in Whiterun do nothing to obstruct a crowd of obvious bandits (the Silver Hand) who come to raid one of the most prominent buildings in the city. The guards in Solitude are apparently indifferent to the Blackblood Marauders, despite merchants vocally complaining about the group by name. And do I even need to mention Markarth?

Mourning Never Comes does not start or end in Windhelm from the player's perspective, but absolutely "starts and ends" there from the perspective for the primary instigator: Muiri. The events leading up to the hit taking place happen in Windhelm, and the hit itself is meant to be closure for those events.

And I'd be interested to see what your examples are of quests where you directly interact with the Windhelm guards where they come across as particular competent are.

[Errorname]

And I'd be interested to see what your examples are of quests where you directly interact with the Windhelm guards where they come across as particular competent are.

I think they're saying that many quests do not give you any impression of the guards whatsoever. Which isn't wrong but isn't useful either. They're also arguing that none of the other holds are exactly putting in a stellar performance when it comes to guard competence, which is fair.

[veti]

What you call "hallucination" I call "extrapolation". Nothing in the quote contradicts what I say,

This much is true. Sybille doesn't say "He wasn't invited". I've already quoted what she does say, but since you persist in reading what you want into it, I'm done with that quote for now.

and it largely backs up my interpretation.

We'll have to agree to differ on that.

My extrapolation is that the straight text of "Ulfric showed up completely unannounced after preaching rebellion against the Empire and we just let him in because we're idiots" doesn't make much sense, but "He showed up and we thought he had peaceful intentions" holds a lot more water.

Oh yes, clearly they didn't know what he planned to do. And Sybille is carrying a deal of personal guilt about that. She's the court mage, one of the chief advisors, she does scrying, it was absolutely her job to provide some kind of warning of an approaching threat - and she completely dropped the ball. As she does again the very first time you see her, over what's going on in Wolfskull Cave.

Basically nothing, because the Dark Brotherhood consists of like 6 people, total, and they are largely that way because they lost a scuffle with random thugs after spending two straight centuries getting ground into dust by various political factions looking for easy wins. The Brotherhood is a shadow of a whisper of its former self and everyone knows it.

Everyone clearly doesn't know it, because all the people in Windhelm - not just the guards - are too frightened to intervene. Even Viola Giordano won't touch it. Maul in Riften uses their name to intimidate you into being Maven's lady dog, and Delvin treats them with great respect. Cicero gives a very effective demo of what happens when you cross the Brotherhood (at the Loreius Farm, if you sic the guards onto him).

And I'd be interested to see what your examples are of quests where you directly interact with the Windhelm guards where they come across as particular competent are.

If we're talking about quests where you directly interact with guards, those are few and far between in any hold. I can think of:
- first entry to Whiterun
- Dragon Rising
- first entry to Riften
- Blood on the Ice
- The Forsworn Conspiracy
- Ill Met by Moonlight
- In My Time of Need

... and that's about it, as far as I can recall. That's one instance where guards are actually helpful, two where they're actively adversarial (even if you're completely innocent), and the rest of the time they're just part of the environment, to be navigated around like any other obstacle.

[Rynjin]

We'll have to agree to differ on that.

Sounds good.

Oh yes, clearly they didn't know what he planned to do. And Sybille is carrying a deal of personal guilt about that. She's the court mage, one of the chief advisors, she does scrying, it was absolutely her job to provide some kind of warning of an approaching threat - and she completely dropped the ball. As she does again the very first time you see her, over what's going on in Wolfskull Cave.

How good is scrying in TES? It's very rarely mentioned, and seems incredibly unreliable. The Septims having vague future-visions is treated as incredibly rare and better than average for scrying techniques form what I recall.

Everyone clearly doesn't know it, because all the people in Windhelm - not just the guards - are too frightened to intervene. Even Viola Giordano won't touch it. Maul in Riften uses their name to intimidate you into being Maven's lady dog, and Delvin treats them with great respect. Cicero gives a very effective demo of what happens when you cross the Brotherhood (at the Loreius Farm, if you sic the guards onto him).

It makes a lot more sense for the average person to be afraid of the Brotherhood, but it appears to be common knowledge among anyone with basic sense how weakened the Brotherhood is. It takes Commander Maro all of ten guys to kill all of them in both Destroy the Dark Brotherhood and Death Incarnate (a few survivors here, but he makes a damn good show of it nonetheless), depending on what "route" you choose. The Penitus Oculatus are admittedly more elite soldiers than the guard, but they show little if any doubt they can accomplish their goal, as finding the hideout is the hard part.

Maul and Delvin, if you'll recall, actually DO BUSINESS with the Brotherhood, of course they treat them with respect. I'm not saying any individual Brotherhood members are bad at what they do, they're all quite dangerous assassins, but there seems to be a general knowledge among people with a certain level of clearance that they're not what they used to be.

[veti]

How good is scrying in TES? It's very rarely mentioned, and seems incredibly unreliable. The Septims having vague future-visions is treated as incredibly rare and better than average for scrying techniques form what I recall.

Well, Sybille clearly sucks at it, which only kinda compounds the question of why she's doing it at all. (Maybe she didn't, maybe she's only just started since Torygg's death because she thinks maybe it would have made a difference, but - well, we can speculate all day.) But elsewhere in the lore it's treated with respect. However, it's not clear whether there is a "skill" that just anyone can develop - most seers (like Jarl Idgrod, for instance, or the Sybil of Dibella) seem to be born, not trained.

I'm not saying any individual Brotherhood members are bad at what they do, they're all quite dangerous assassins, but there seems to be a general knowledge among people with a certain level of clearance that they're not what they used to be.

OK, but now we're down from "everyone knows" to "people with a certain level of clearance" know. Which explains why common guards have no such idea.

And I'd just like to quote someone with the very highest level of clearance there is, and quite possibly Sight to boot:

And, once more, I prove Commander Maro the fool. I told him you can't stop the Dark Brotherhood. Never could.

I really liked the emperor. It's such a shame that the only way to meet him is to kill him.

Edit: And come to think of it, the entire DB questline refutes your argument. If "everyone knew" that the DB was a withered vestige of its former self, why is someone willing to invest so much money, to say nothing of the personal risk he runs, to employ them to kill the hardest target in Tamriel?

[Rynjin]

Because Skyrim's writing is bad, and Mede is a dumbass. The Dark Brotherhood is in its current state largely because the Empire (among others) has been taking chunks out of them, they should know roughly how they're faring. The fact that somebody high up in the Senate has zero idea doesn't make any sense on the face, and the only reason his plan succeeds is because the Dragonborn is there to do all the heavy lifting for the 'Hood.

Hell, his contract never would have been picked up if the literal hero of prophecy with the strength of 100 men hadn't decided to join up, because Astrid's crew would never have heard about it.

[Keltest]

Because Skyrim's writing is bad, and Mede is a dumbass. The Dark Brotherhood is in its current state largely because the Empire (among others) has been taking chunks out of them, they should know roughly how they're faring. The fact that somebody high up in the Senate has zero idea doesn't make any sense on the face, and the only reason his plan succeeds is because the Dragonborn is there to do all the heavy lifting for the 'Hood.

Hell, his contract never would have been picked up if the literal hero of prophecy with the strength of 100 men hadn't decided to join up, because Astrid's crew would never have heard about it.

As I recall, Cicero's journal says that it was the Great War that drove them out of Bravil and Cyrodiil, and the subsequent unrest, not the Empire specifically.