Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)

[Grim Portent]

If the Empire have the strength – and the guts – to say "no" to the Dominion, why are they following the Concordat at all?

The guts are really the problem. The Empire could probably have ultimately won the Great War if it were willing to keep going, at the time it was the bigger of the two factions even though diminished from it's prior level of absolute supremacy, and a lot of the power of an enemy like the Dominion comes from hard to replace assets like mages that get whittled down over time.

The problem is Cyrodiil itself was bloodied rather severely, and Cyrodiil is the seat of the Empire, and the nobles, merchant lords and clergy there have more sway over what the Empire does than the provincial rulers do, so even if Hammerfell, High Rock, Skyrim and the vestiges of Morrowind had all wanted to keep fighting the Empire would still have made peace. Smart Imperials like Tullius know there will be another war with the Dominion and want to be ready for it, but there are going to be many who want to pay any price to avoid another war, and will appease and capitulate the Aldmeri whenever they can, and some will even turn on the Empire in hopes of keeping their positions under Dominion rule.

[Keltest]

The guts are really the problem. The Empire could probably have ultimately won the Great War if it were willing to keep going, at the time it was the bigger of the two factions even though diminished from it's prior level of absolute supremacy, and a lot of the power of an enemy like the Dominion comes from hard to replace assets like mages that get whittled down over time.

The problem is Cyrodiil itself was bloodied rather severely, and Cyrodiil is the seat of the Empire, and the nobles, merchant lords and clergy there have more sway over what the Empire does than the provincial rulers do, so even if Hammerfell, High Rock, Skyrim and the vestiges of Morrowind had all wanted to keep fighting the Empire would still have made peace. Smart Imperials like Tullius know there will be another war with the Dominion and want to be ready for it, but there are going to be many who want to pay any price to avoid another war, and will appease and capitulate the Aldmeri whenever they can, and some will even turn on the Empire in hopes of keeping their positions under Dominion rule.

I mean, its easy to say you should keep fighting when its not your land that's being invaded and devastated.

[Cikomyr2]

I mean, its easy to say you should keep fighting when its not your land that's being invaded and devastated.

Thank you for making my point that Cyrodill is a liability to the rest of the provinces of the Empire. I couldn't have put it better myself.

[Keltest]

Thank you for making my point that Cyrodill is a liability to the rest of the provinces of the Empire. I couldn't have put it better myself.

Where was Gondor when the Westfold fell, am I right?

[Cikomyr2]

Where was Gondor when the Westfold fell, am I right?

It was busy calling up all troops from Hammerfell to give it up.

The Empire is willing to sacrifice all of its province to protect Cyrodill. That is the order of things, and this is what Ulfric rages against.

[Keltest]

It was busy calling up all troops from Hammerfell to give it up.

The Empire is willing to sacrifice all of its province to protect Cyrodill. That is the order of things, and this is what Ulfric rages against.

I feel like you don't understand what losing a war entails. You lose things. They very much were NOT willing to sacrifice Hammerfell, thats why they went to war in the first place. They just lost.

[druid91]

I feel like you don't understand what losing a war entails. You lose things. They very much were NOT willing to sacrifice Hammerfell, thats why they went to war in the first place. They just lost.

Except they didn't have to lose. They chose to lose because losing was preferable to Cyrodiil having to stick it's neck out for provincials to the bigwigs in Cyrodiil.

[Cikomyr2]

I feel like you don't understand what losing a war entails. You lose things. They very much were NOT willing to sacrifice Hammerfell, thats why they went to war in the first place. They just lost.

Yhea. But ***Skyrim*** didnt lose the war. Cyrodill did. Hammerfell didnt lose the war, Cyrodill did.

[Rynjin]

Yhea. But ***Skyrim*** didnt lose the war. Cyrodill did. Hammerfell didnt lose the war, Cyrodill did.

The Empire lost. They were part of the Empire. By extension, they all lost. If they were doing that well in their own regions they should have had forces to spare to aid Cyrodiil against the bulk of the Dominion's forces.

[veti]

The Empire lost. They were part of the Empire. By extension, they all lost.

So, what I'm missing here is the logic by which Skyrim, High Rock and Hammerfell should still be considered to be beholden to Cyrodiil.

They lost. There's a word for empires that lose a total war of that kind: they're called countries. It can't continue to claim to be an empire, because the emperor is no longer supreme over his own lands. By accepting the terms of the concordat, he signed up for vassalage.

So what happens when an empire is subjugated? It lets go of its own vassals, admitting that it can no longer protect them. If Skyrim submits to Cyrodiil now, it's submitting to the Thalmor. Because they're calling the shots in "the empire".

[GloatingSwine]

The Empire lost. They were part of the Empire. By extension, they all lost. If they were doing that well in their own regions they should have had forces to spare to aid Cyrodiil against the bulk of the Dominion's forces.

Well Hammerfell decided that they weren't part of the Empire, hadn't lost the war, and carried on fighting and didn't lose.

[Errorname]

Well Hammerfell decided that they weren't part of the Empire, hadn't lost the war, and carried on fighting and didn't lose.

It wasn't even Hammerfell's decision. The Empire hung them out to dry to save their own skin.

[Keltest]

So, what I'm missing here is the logic by which Skyrim, High Rock and Hammerfell should still be considered to be beholden to Cyrodiil.

They lost. There's a word for empires that lose a total war of that kind: they're called countries. It can't continue to claim to be an empire, because the emperor is no longer supreme over his own lands. By accepting the terms of the concordat, he signed up for vassalage.

So what happens when an empire is subjugated? It lets go of its own vassals, admitting that it can no longer protect them. If Skyrim submits to Cyrodiil now, it's submitting to the Thalmor. Because they're calling the shots in "the empire".

The Empire isnt a vassal of the Dominion. They don't pay tribute, they don't follow Dominion laws, and the Dominion has no authority to operate within Imperial lands except what the Empire gives it (which is less than what they actually take, but thats beside the point.)

[Cikomyr2]

The Empire isnt a vassal of the Dominion. They don't pay tribute, they don't follow Dominion laws, and the Dominion has no authority to operate within Imperial lands except what the Empire gives it (which is less than what they actually take, but thats beside the point.)

I don't know. The law of the Thalmor that they do apply is forbidding of Talos worship and outlawing of the Blades.

But its irrelevant. The point is you can turn Cyrodill as an enabler of your laws and agenda on the rest of the Empire by just striking at Cyrodill.

You want Hammerfell? Attack Cyrodill
You want the whole of the Empire to give up Talos? Attack Cyrodill.

As long as the Empire remains the Empire as we know it, the elves know the only thing they need to do to make ***all*** men bend the knee is make sure Cyrodill is sufficiently bloodied, because then the ruler or Cyrodill can order people of High Rock, Hammerfell, Skyrim to bend the knee as well.

It's like if you could force a conversion of the entire Roman empire just because you captured Italy. It completely negates any agency or choice or rights the provinces are supposed to hold. Everything becomes a disposable resource that Cyrodill can just throw away at the problem so THEY remain safe.

Feel like this very point was already argue, like, 5 pages ago.

[Keltest]

I don't know. The law of the Thalmor that they do apply is forbidding of Talos worship and outlawing of the Blades.

But its irrelevant. The point is you can turn Cyrodill as an enabler of your laws and agenda on the rest of the Empire by just striking at Cyrodill.

You want Hammerfell? Attack Cyrodill
You want the whole of the Empire to give up Talos? Attack Cyrodill.

As long as the Empire remains the Empire as we know it, the elves know the only thing they need to do to make ***all*** men bend the knee is make sure Cyrodill is sufficiently bloodied, because then the ruler or Cyrodill can order people of High Rock, Hammerfell, Skyrim to bend the knee as well.

It's like if you could force a conversion of the entire Roman empire just because you captured Italy. It completely negates any agency or choice or rights the provinces are supposed to hold. Everything becomes a disposable resource that Cyrodill can just throw away at the problem so THEY remain safe.

Feel like this very point was already argue, like, 5 pages ago.

Thats not a law of the Thalmor, thats a law of the Empire.

As for the rest of your point... Yeah, it does work that way, because if Cyrodiil is fallen, that means the Empire's armies got crushed and none of the other provinces can defend themselves now that the armies are gone. Literally the exact same outcome would have happened if the battles had all been in Skyrim instead of Cyrodiil, because Cyrodiil is not as special as youre trying to make it out to be.

[GloatingSwine]

Thats not a law of the Thalmor, thats a law of the Empire.

It's a law the Empire was forced to institute in the White Gold Concordat. As was the dissolution of the Emperor's guard and intelligence service.

The Empire was forced to pay a large tribute in gold and land, except the land decided actually no the Empire and Thalmor can both to to Sep and so the Thalmor didn't get that.

And in Skyrim we see Thalmor operating in Imperial provinces and basically enforcing their own will.

It might not be de jure vassalage, but the Empire bent the knee almost totally and it very much seems like they didn't need to. Hammerfell alone was able to resist once it got over a conflict which, had the Emperors* been any sort of politican at all, wouldn't have been nearly as intense.

*And this isn't just the Mede dynasty. There are three entire games of you the player pulling Uriel Septim VIII's stones out of the fire.

[Keltest]

It's a law the Empire was forced to institute in the White Gold Concordat. As was the dissolution of the Emperor's guard and intelligence service.

The Empire was forced to pay a large tribute in gold and land, except the land decided actually no the Empire and Thalmor can both to to Sep and so the Thalmor didn't get that.

And in Skyrim we see Thalmor operating in Imperial provinces and basically enforcing their own will.

It might not be de jure vassalage, but the Empire bent the knee almost totally and it very much seems like they didn't need to. Hammerfell alone was able to resist once it got over a conflict which, had the Emperors* been any sort of politican at all, wouldn't have been nearly as intense.

*And this isn't just the Mede dynasty. There are three entire games of you the player pulling Uriel Septim VIII's stones out of the fire.

In Skyrim, there is a note on some of the Thalmor explicitly noting that if they are caught comitting a crime (ie your murder) that the Dominion us unable to help them or shield them from the consequences. You're right, they do operate in Skyrim, but their actual legal authority begins and ends at observation and enforcing the terms of the Concordant.

[GloatingSwine]

In Skyrim, there is a note on some of the Thalmor explicitly noting that if they are caught comitting a crime (ie your murder) that the Dominion us unable to help them or shield them from the consequences. You're right, they do operate in Skyrim, but their actual legal authority begins and ends at observation and enforcing the terms of the Concordant.

Yeah, that doesn't amount to a hill of beans against the reality that the Empire has to accept the spies and enforcers of the Dominion and give them free reign about its territory. That makes it much harder for them to actually prepare or mount any resistance in the future because they can't do it in secret in any territory the Thalmor can inspect at will (someone posited that Altmer mature more slowly than men, they don't. Ayrenn is 27 in 2E 582)

[Keltest]

Yeah, that doesn't amount to a hill of beans against the reality that the Empire has to accept the spies and enforcers of the Dominion and give them free reign about its territory. That makes it much harder for them to actually prepare or mount any resistance in the future because they can't do it in secret in any territory the Thalmor can inspect at will (someone posited that Altmer mature more slowly than men, they don't. Ayrenn is 27 in 2E 582)

I'm really unclear how "this thing is illegal and we will disavow you if you're caught." Gets translated as "you are acting perfectly within your rights and they can't do anything to impede you."

[veti]

The Empire isnt a vassal of the Dominion. They don't pay tribute, they don't follow Dominion laws, and the Dominion has no authority to operate within Imperial lands except what the Empire gives it (which is less than what they actually take, but thats beside the point.)

They did pay tribute, they absolutely do follow whatever laws the Thalmor trouble to demand of them, and when the Dominion demanded the right to send its justiciars into Skyrim, the "Empire" rolled out the red carpet and actively hosts and supports the thugs.

[Keltest]

They did pay tribute, they absolutely do follow whatever laws the Thalmor trouble to demand of them, and when the Dominion demanded the right to send its justiciars into Skyrim, the "Empire" rolled out the red carpet and actively hosts and supports the thugs.

Yall are aware that there is a lot of room between "vassal" and "completely free of any influence at all" right? The Empire is not a vassal.what they are is under a specific treaty as a result of getting their butts handed to them in a war. The Dominion's ability to enact policy is limited to making sure the terms of the treaty are followed, and even then their de-facto power in actually doing so is quite small.

[veti]

Yall are aware that there is a lot of room between "vassal" and "completely free of any influence at all" right?

Influence != Authority. The Dominion has (because it claims it and, damningly, the self-styled Empire does not dispute that claim) authority over what goes on in Imperial lands. The Thalmor have their own enforcers, their own prisons, their own torturers in Skyrim, who operate with the full-throated blessing and support of the supposedly-defending imperial forces. They have patrols across the land who will accuse and attempt to murder innocent passers-by with no trial or evidence whatsoever, and the legion supports them while they do it.

Oh sure, Tullius mutters a bit when he's sure no Thalmor are listening, but when Elenwen says "jump", all he says is "how high?"

Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true.
...
The Thalmor invited me here to remind everyone that they can tell the Empire what to do. I would refuse, but I don't want to jeopardize the peace between us.

The Empire is not a vassal.what they are is under a specific treaty as a result of getting their butts handed to them in a war. The Dominion's ability to enact policy is limited to making sure the terms of the treaty are followed, and even then their de-facto power in actually doing so is quite small.

"The terms of the treaty" are effectively rewritten on a regular basis to make sure they cover whatever the Thalmor happen to want. Justiciars into Skyrim? - that wasn't in the treaty when it was signed, but somehow it is now. Tullius to go to Elenwen's parties, to make sure everyone knows who's boss? "Thank you ma'am, may I have another?"

You're right on one point, that the de facto power of the Thalmor is quite small. But that hardly matters, when they have the de facto and de jure power of the Imperial legion doing their dirty work for them. That's the genius of Thalmor diplomacy, again. The "Empire" is psychologically so whipped, they're now actively participating in their own subjugation.

[Keltest]

Influence != Authority. The Dominion has (because it claims it and, damningly, the self-styled Empire does not dispute that claim) authority over what goes on in Imperial lands. The Thalmor have their own enforcers, their own prisons, their own torturers in Skyrim, who operate with the full-throated blessing and support of the supposedly-defending imperial forces. They have patrols across the land who will accuse and attempt to murder innocent passers-by with no trial or evidence whatsoever, and the legion supports them while they do it.

Oh sure, Tullius mutters a bit when he's sure no Thalmor are listening, but when Elenwen says "jump", all he says is "how high?"





"The terms of the treaty" are effectively rewritten on a regular basis to make sure they cover whatever the Thalmor happen to want. Justiciars into Skyrim? - that wasn't in the treaty when it was signed, but somehow it is now. Tullius to go to Elenwen's parties, to make sure everyone knows who's boss? "Thank you ma'am, may I have another?"

You're right on one point, that the de facto power of the Thalmor is quite small. But that hardly matters, when they have the de facto and de jure power of the Imperial legion doing their dirty work for them. That's the genius of Thalmor diplomacy, again. The "Empire" is psychologically so whipped, they're now actively participating in their own subjugation.

The Thalmor explicitly commit several acts that are beyond the scope of what the treaty allows them to do. In fact, a fairly significant majority of how they operate is beyond the scope of their authority, which is why you EG don't get a bounty when you fight the justiciar patrols unless you just attack them out of nowhere.

[GloatingSwine]

The Thalmor explicitly commit several acts that are beyond the scope of what the treaty allows them to do. In fact, a fairly significant majority of how they operate is beyond the scope of their authority, which is why you EG don't get a bounty when you fight the justiciar patrols unless you just attack them out of nowhere.

The fact that the Thalmor openly operate beyond their treaty powers and the only consequences of that come when they accidentally try it on a Dragonborn isn't a good argument for your position that the Empire isn't a de facto vassal you know...

[Rynjin]

Said consequences would come if they tried to fight ANYONE stronger than their group. It's why they skulk around and try to ambush randos.

"Extremists perform hate crimes in your province" doesn't mean they run it.

[GloatingSwine]

Said consequences would come if they tried to fight ANYONE stronger than their group. It's why they skulk around and try to ambush randos.

"Extremists perform hate crimes in your province" doesn't mean they run it.

Yeah, but "Agents of a hostile government perform hate crimes in your province and your own alleged government takes no action" kinda does. The Empire has no leash on the Thalmor operating in its territory. At all.

Hence the need for the Empire to be thrown out by a secessionist rebellion.

[Mechalich]

Yeah, but "Agents of a hostile government perform hate crimes in your province and your own alleged government takes no action" kinda does. The Empire has no leash on the Thalmor operating in its territory. At all.

Okay, but by that standard the Empire has no leash on anyone operating in their territory. Skyrim is absolutely bursting will all kinds of hostile threats that will attack absolutely anyone passing by for no reason whatsoever. Bandits, giants, werewolves, vampires, Foresworn, the list goes on and on. No one has any real control of territory outside of a very narrow radius surrounding the towns. The rest of the province is wilderness where 'here there be monsters.'

This is, of course, a game mechanic, but it induces a lot of weirdness. Notably, the Thalmor patrols ought to be taking hideous casualties by virtue of just walking around Skyrim, while they'll hardly ever run into anyone on the road worth bothering with. Considering that they'd almost certainly be taking loses far in excess of any damage they do to the citizens, while at the same time bleeding various problematic groups operating in the countryside, the Empire ought to be encouraging such a massive self-destructive tactic. 'Our enemies keep sending their agents out to get eaten by monsters? Protest? Why would we protest? That's awesome.'

Also, my recollection from Skyrim is that Thalmor encounters are really rare. Like, one or two in a whole play-through. Meanwhile, you might encounter bandits, mages, Foresworn, or vampires dozens of times. The scope of Thalmor activity is way, way down the list of things of import to the authorities.

[Batcathat]

Also, my recollection from Skyrim is that Thalmor encounters are really rare. Like, one or two in a whole play-through. Meanwhile, you might encounter bandits, mages, Foresworn, or vampires dozens of times. The scope of Thalmor activity is way, way down the list of things of import to the authorities.

While probably true from a practical point of view, it's probably more important than random monsters and bandits from a political point of view. Considering a lot of Nords (quite rightly, I'd say) already think the Empire completely buckled to the Dominion's demands, making a bit of effort to ensure the Thalmor doesn't go even further than they're allowed to would probably be a good investment.

[Keltest]

While probably true from a practical point of view, it's probably more important than random monsters and bandits from a political point of view. Considering a lot of Nords (quite rightly, I'd say) already think the Empire completely buckled to the Dominion's demands, making a bit of effort to ensure the Thalmor doesn't go even further than they're allowed to would probably be a good investment.

Sure. And if the Thalmor attack you in range for an Imperial patrol to help you, they do. Its not like the Thalmor are just knifing people in the street and telling folks to Move Along, Nothing to See Here.

[Batcathat]

Sure. And if the Thalmor attack you in range for an Imperial patrol to help you, they do. Its not like the Thalmor are just knifing people in the street and telling folks to Move Along, Nothing to See Here.

Sure, but at some point the people might appreciate if the government did something about the murderous foreign operatives even when they aren't committing their crimes right in front of them. For the sake of the Empire's reputation among both their own population and the Dominion, doing more than the absolute minimum might be a good idea.