Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)

[Keltest]

Sure, but at some point the people might appreciate if the government did something about the murderous foreign operatives even when they aren't committing their crimes right in front of them. For the sake of the Empire's reputation among both their own population and the Dominion, doing more than the absolute minimum might be a good idea.

Im sure between the civil war, the dragon attacks, the monsters, the bandits and the ferocious wildlife, the Imperial Legion has lots of spare men.

The point here being that the Legion is already explicitly stretched too thin to deal with every problem proactively.

[veti]

Sure. And if the Thalmor attack you in range for an Imperial patrol to help you, they do. Its not like the Thalmor are just knifing people in the street and telling folks to Move Along, Nothing to See Here.

It's not easy to test this because random encounters are - random, but that's not my experience. Unless you're actually in the imperial legion, those soldiers running up are not coming to help you...

Im sure between the civil war, the dragon attacks, the monsters, the bandits and the ferocious wildlife, the Imperial Legion has lots of spare men.

The point here being that the Legion is already explicitly stretched too thin to deal with every problem proactively.

They're not dealing with any of those things "proactively" at all. The war is the one thing they actually care about, but not enough to get off their butts until the Dragonborn kicks Tullius into action. The wildlife, etc., they will leave strictly alone unless it happens to wander into their camp. And I don't actually blame them for that - it's not even their job, that's what the jarls' guards are for.

[Cikomyr2]

The fact that soldiers of a foreign government ARE allowed to patrol their territory is good enough.

Its like if the US allowed chinese red guards patrol the streets of San Francisco "as long as they follow the law". Its simply a declarative surrender of their authority over their territory.

Foreign government agents enforcing openly their government policy in your territory is a blatant surrender of sovereignty, no matter how your slice it or rationalize it. And im goddamn sure the Thalmor knows it and openly Patrols Skyrim explicitly to further humiliate the Empire and Skyrim residents.

[Keltest]

It's not easy to test this because random encounters are - random, but that's not my experience. Unless you're actually in the imperial legion, those soldiers running up are not coming to help you...

Absent being in the Legion, I dont think its actually possible for a Thalmor patrol to spawn in the same spot as a Legion patrol anyway, since random encounters are based on location, and they don't occupy the forts until you pick a side. But there are a few Thalmor in places like Markarth who will sometimes attack you if you have previously antagonized the Thalmor in general, who will be attacked by the guards for assaulting you the same as any other rando who wants to commit suicide by dragonborn.

The fact that soldiers of a foreign government ARE allowed to patrol their territory is good enough.

Its like if the US allowed chinese red guards patrol the streets of San Francisco "as long as they follow the law". Its simply a declarative surrender of their authority over their territory.

Foreign government agents enforcing openly their government policy in your territory is a blatant surrender of sovereignty, no matter how your slice it or rationalize it. And im goddamn sure the Thalmor knows it and openly Patrols Skyrim explicitly to further humiliate the Empire and Skyrim residents.

What part of "they arent allowed to do that" has been unclear? The Thalmor assassinate people sometimes, which is illegal under the treaties, they know is illegal, and acknowledge will cause big problems for them if they get caught. Any time the Thalmor attack someone for being a Talos worshiper? Theyre committing a crime, the same as bandits. Because they don't actually have any sort of authority to make that sort of unilateral decision, and it shows because any time they actually have to operate under Imperial supervision, they defer to and are beholden to the whims of the Imperial forces, like the Justiciar in Markarth who wants to convince the Jarl to arrest a skald for Talos worship.

Like, theyre diplomats man. With bodyguards. Thats normal. The Empire knows theyre basically a criminal element, its just that they can't give them the level of scrutiny needed to keep them out of trouble while the civil war is going on. Another reason that Ulfric is the weakest link in Skyrim really.

[Batcathat]

Im sure between the civil war, the dragon attacks, the monsters, the bandits and the ferocious wildlife, the Imperial Legion has lots of spare men.

The point here being that the Legion is already explicitly stretched too thin to deal with every problem proactively.

Yes, that's probably true (of course, you seem to think Ulfric deserves blame for every problem he doesn't solve despite being just as busy), but not prioritizing it still sends a message. Maybe not doing anything about it is the best call, but that doesn't mean it won't have consequences.

[Keltest]

Yes, that's probably true (of course, you seem to think Ulfric deserves blame for every problem he doesn't solve despite being just as busy), but not prioritizing it still sends a message. Maybe not doing anything about it is the best call, but that doesn't mean it won't have consequences.

Ulfric started the war in the first place. He doesn't have a lot of room to claim that he's too busy to manage his own land, or that his troops are too thin. Even if its true and he genuinely cant manage it all (not a good look for a wannabe king), its his fault for, you know, starting the war that led to those situations.

[veti]

Absent being in the Legion, I dont think its actually possible for a Thalmor patrol to spawn in the same spot as a Legion patrol anyway, since random encounters are based on location, and they don't occupy the forts until you pick a side. But there are a few Thalmor in places like Markarth who will sometimes attack you if you have previously antagonized the Thalmor in general, who will be attacked by the guards for assaulting you the same as any other rando who wants to commit suicide by dragonborn.

Not in "the same spot" exactly, no, but there are places where the spawn points are close enough that you can get two encounters within sight of one another. Particularly if you delay picking a fight with the Thalmor for a while.

I've never been attacked by the Thalmor in Understone Keep (without attacking them first), but if I was it would be the jarls' guards coming to my aid, not the Imperial legion. Different faction, different loyalties. And that, incidentally, also explains the warning on the Thalmor hit squad's orders. "Scragging some rando" is one thing, but "scragging the hero who's prophesied to save Skyrim (and, for that matter, the rest of the world)" is likely to be looked upon askance by some of the jarls, who are the ones actually in charge of administering justice. Nothing to do with the legion at all.

[Keltest]

Not in "the same spot" exactly, no, but there are places where the spawn points are close enough that you can get two encounters within sight of one another. Particularly if you delay picking a fight with the Thalmor for a while.

I've never been attacked by the Thalmor in Understone Keep (without attacking them first), but if I was it would be the jarls' guards coming to my aid, not the Imperial legion. Different faction, different loyalties. And that, incidentally, also explains the warning on the Thalmor hit squad's orders. "Scragging some rando" is one thing, but "scragging the hero who's prophesied to save Skyrim (and, for that matter, the rest of the world)" is likely to be looked upon askance by some of the jarls, who are the ones actually in charge of administering justice. Nothing to do with the legion at all.

I mean, the Thalmor will certainly come after you when youre just some rando too. I'm not 100% certain but I believe the trigger to start getting the assassins sent after you is just to kill a Thalmor Justiciar or other Thalmor character. Presumably all Jarls look askance at random murder (that they didnt sign off on, looking at you Siddgeir) due to it being, you know, murder.

Which is the point. The Thalmor aren't judge, jury or executioner. Theyre either advisors or murderers.

[veti]

What part of "they arent allowed to do that" has been unclear? The Thalmor assassinate people sometimes, which is illegal under the treaties, they know is illegal, and acknowledge will cause big problems for them if they get caught. Any time the Thalmor attack someone for being a Talos worshiper? Theyre committing a crime, the same as bandits. Because they don't actually have any sort of authority to make that sort of unilateral decision, and it shows because any time they actually have to operate under Imperial supervision, they defer to and are beholden to the whims of the Imperial forces, like the Justiciar in Markarth who wants to convince the Jarl to arrest a skald for Talos worship.

When bandits wander too close to an Imperial-aligned town, they get attacked by the guards. When the Thalmor do it, they don't.

The business in Markarth is a confusion between factions. The Jarl of Markarth is Imperial-aligned, yes, but he's not part of the Legion and neither are his guards. The Thalmor know that the individual jarls are significantly more unpredictable than the Legion, and therefore harder to control. Igmund, to his credit, has enough basic sense of justice that he declines to sentence a man without any evidence whatsoever, and the Thalmor may hate that, but they accept they have to work with it.

I mean, the Thalmor will certainly come after you when youre just some rando too. I'm not 100% certain but I believe the trigger to start getting the assassins sent after you is just to kill a Thalmor Justiciar or other Thalmor character.

Actually, this one I do know. The trigger is, "reach level 8". (I think it's 8. In that ballpark, anyway.) There is no other requirement.

[Cikomyr2]

I mean, the Thalmor will certainly come after you when youre just some rando too. I'm not 100% certain but I believe the trigger to start getting the assassins sent after you is just to kill a Thalmor Justiciar or other Thalmor character. Presumably all Jarls look askance at random murder (that they didnt sign off on, looking at you Siddgeir) due to it being, you know, murder.

Which is the point. The Thalmor aren't judge, jury or executioner. Theyre either advisors or murderers.

I think a this point i can just call you a Thalmor apologist.

[Keltest]

I think a this point i can just call you a Thalmor apologist.

Thats a really curious takeaway from "the Thalmor are criminals and are acting illegally much of the time."

[Mr Blobby]

I mean, the Thalmor will certainly come after you when youre just some rando too. I'm not 100% certain but I believe the trigger to start getting the assassins sent after you is just to kill a Thalmor Justiciar or other Thalmor character. Presumably all Jarls look askance at random murder (that they didnt sign off on, looking at you Siddgeir) due to it being, you know, murder.

Which is the point. The Thalmor aren't judge, jury or executioner. Theyre either advisors or murderers.

Incorrect. The 'Justicar execution order' is fired as a purely random event. My most recent PC got attacked by that trio just a few days ago - she had not even had any interactions with the Thalmor by this point. This is confirmed by the relevant page on the Elder Scrolls wikis.

Not in "the same spot" exactly, no, but there are places where the spawn points are close enough that you can get two encounters within sight of one another. Particularly if you delay picking a fight with the Thalmor for a while.

I've never been attacked by the Thalmor in Understone Keep (without attacking them first), but if I was it would be the jarls' guards coming to my aid, not the Imperial legion. Different faction, different loyalties. And that, incidentally, also explains the warning on the Thalmor hit squad's orders. "Scragging some rando" is one thing, but "scragging the hero who's prophesied to save Skyrim (and, for that matter, the rest of the world)" is likely to be looked upon askance by some of the jarls, who are the ones actually in charge of administering justice. Nothing to do with the legion at all.

I suspect a major part of this might be the old 'disposition ratios' you used to see most obviously in Oblivion - that if X likes you enough, they will defend you against Y. Or that they like you more than Y [which occasionally threw up situations like a husband siding with you in a fight with their wife]. Might also have something to do with their 'responsibility ratings' too.

Ulfric started the war in the first place. He doesn't have a lot of room to claim that he's too busy to manage his own land, or that his troops are too thin. Even if its true and he genuinely cant manage it all (not a good look for a wannabe king), its his fault for, you know, starting the war that led to those situations.

Let's remember, it's been 25 years since the end of the Great War. We don't learn how long he's been Jarl; but surely Ulfric has had some time to rule is domain - and if he'd been planning to make a play to be King on Istlod's death, 'being able to rule my lands well' would have looked good to the other Jarls [and also provide the economic base to fight a 'Liberation War']. There is not much evidence, but what does exist points that Ulfric only decided to kill Torygg after he refused to declare independence.

This leads to my theory that Ulfric didn't have a damn plan, he's basically doing it all by seat-of-pants and future canon will say either 'Ulfric lost' or 'Ulfric won but then was promptly overthrown because he'd won a Pyrrhic victory'.

[Keltest]

I suspect that Ulfric was counting on more popular support than he ultimately got. We know he was expecting Whiterun to side with him, for example.

[veti]

IThis leads to my theory that Ulfric didn't have a damn plan, he's basically doing it all by seat-of-pants and future canon will say either 'Ulfric lost' or 'Ulfric won but then was promptly overthrown because he'd won a Pyrrhic victory'.

I'm pretty sure future canon will say only "there was a civil war in Skyrim, but it didn't matter because $RANDOM_UNFORESEEABLE_BULLS**T happened and everything was irrelevant anyway".

Yes, I'm still bitter about what Bethesda did to Morrowind...

[Rynjin]

I suspect that Ulfric was counting on more popular support than he ultimately got. We know he was expecting Whiterun to side with him, for example.

He probably should have put some feelers out instead of just...guessing then.

[GloatingSwine]

Let's remember, it's been 25 years since the end of the Great War. We don't learn how long he's been Jarl; but surely Ulfric has had some time to rule is domain - and if he'd been planning to make a play to be King on Istlod's death, 'being able to rule my lands well' would have looked good to the other Jarls [and also provide the economic base to fight a 'Liberation War']. There is not much evidence, but what does exist points that Ulfric only decided to kill Torygg after he refused to declare independence.

This leads to my theory that Ulfric didn't have a damn plan, he's basically doing it all by seat-of-pants and future canon will say either 'Ulfric lost' or 'Ulfric won but then was promptly overthrown because he'd won a Pyrrhic victory'.

I'm not so sure administrative capability was going to be high on the list of desired qualities for the Jarls when they were picking a new high king. They picked Torygg out of traditional succession, after all. But also there really isn't one among the ones we get to meet who is presented as if they're particularly interested in that for themselves.

"Ruling your land well" could mean anything to the Jarls, from squeezing as much out for yourself as possible to holding to Nord traditions to whatever visions Ingrod is having to killing as many Reachmen as you can find.

As for Ulfric having a plan beyond the end of the civil war, that's too far out to really plan for. He has a plan for the conduct of the war, because he has people in place to take over every Imperial loyalist hold, but the outcome and conditions of the war impose too many variables past that really.

I'm pretty sure future canon will say only "there was a civil war in Skyrim, but it didn't matter because $RANDOM_UNFORESEEABLE_BULLS**T happened and everything was irrelevant anyway".

Yes, I'm still bitter about what Bethesda did to Morrowind...

Morrowind was not in for a nice time after the plot of the game. Their living gods were variously mad and dead and also the source of their power was destroyed forever, and all the powers they held back were due to be unleashed all at once. You stop something even worse, but it was never going to be a nice time.

[veti]

Morrowind was not in for a nice time after the plot of the game. Their living gods were variously mad and dead and also the source of their power was destroyed forever, and all the powers they held back were due to be unleashed all at once. You stop something even worse, but it was never going to be a nice time.

You're probably right. But I never killed Vivec - I quite liked the guy, actually - and he seemed competent to keep the place ticking over until he could bow out graciously. It never occurred to me he'd drop a nuke on his way out the door.

[Keltest]

You're probably right. But I never killed Vivec - I quite liked the guy, actually - and he seemed competent to keep the place ticking over until he could bow out graciously. It never occurred to me he'd drop a nuke on his way out the door.

It's not like he did it intentionally. He got got in the Oblivion Crisis.

[druid91]

Ulfric started the war in the first place. He doesn't have a lot of room to claim that he's too busy to manage his own land, or that his troops are too thin. Even if its true and he genuinely cant manage it all (not a good look for a wannabe king), its his fault for, you know, starting the war that led to those situations.

Honestly? Not really. The empire started the war by not doing their job. If it wasn't Ulfric it would have been someone else. Civil war was inevitable the moment Cyrodiil put themselves above the empire as a whole.

[Keltest]

Honestly? Not really. The empire started the war by not doing their job. If it wasn't Ulfric it would have been someone else. Civil war was inevitable the moment Cyrodiil put themselves above the empire as a whole.

I mean, yall keep saying this, but its just demonstrably not true. Cyrodiil was on the front lines of an existential war. They did everything in their power to resist the Dominion.

[GloatingSwine]

You're probably right. But I never killed Vivec - I quite liked the guy, actually - and he seemed competent to keep the place ticking over until he could bow out graciously. It never occurred to me he'd drop a nuke on his way out the door.

He’s the only thing keeping Baar Dau from hitting Vivec City. The nuke is floating there for all to see.

And the time of his godhood is nearing its end without the Heart of Lorkhan.

[veti]

Cyrodiil was on the front lines of an existential war. They did everything in their power to resist the Dominion.

I feel like we've thrashed this to death already. They didn't do everything in their power, and that's the whole problem. They may have thought they had, but other people (including some who were doing a deal of the actual fighting, so their opinions count for something) disagree.

[Keltest]

I feel like we've thrashed this to death already. They didn't do everything in their power, and that's the whole problem. They may have thought they had, but other people (including some who were doing a deal of the actual fighting, so their opinions count for something) disagree.

Yeah, but given that none of them have actually identified a workable plan, I don't really care about their opinions too much. "Cyrodiil should continue to get killed for the sake of Skyrim because reasons." is not an argument I am going to bother to indulge. Really, if the rest of the empire needs to burn and bleed for their beliefs while they sit back and live their lives, it sounds like Skyrim is the liability, not Cyrodiil.

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah, but given that none of them have actually identified a workable plan, I don't really care about their opinions too much. "Cyrodiil should continue to get killed for the sake of Skyrim because reasons." is not an argument I am going to bother to indulge. Really, if the rest of the empire needs to burn and bleed for their beliefs while they sit back and live their lives, it sounds like Skyrim is the liability, not Cyrodiil.

Hammerfell kept on fighting alone until they won, so the workable plan is actually just "kill more elves".

Cyrodiil is perfectly happy to throw the other provinces under the bus, but as soon as the war got a bit up close and personal they folded like a deck chair.

[Cikomyr2]

Hammerfell kept on fighting alone until they won, so the workable plan is actually just "kill more elves".

Cyrodiil is perfectly happy to throw the other provinces under the bus, but as soon as the war got a bit up close and personal they folded like a deck chair.

Maybe not "soon as..", Cyrodill kept fighting for a while.

But they did fold first. Cyrodill was the only province of the Empire to be actually occupied, and it's all it took to bring an entire continent-spamming Empire to its knee.

The other provinces, including Hammerfell, still had some fights in them. But the Emperor gave them up and Talos for Cyrodill's sake.

[Keltest]

Hammerfell kept on fighting alone until they won, so the workable plan is actually just "kill more elves".

Cyrodiil is perfectly happy to throw the other provinces under the bus, but as soon as the war got a bit up close and personal they folded like a deck chair.

This is such a complete misrepresentation of what actually happened, its appalling to me people keep saying it.

Cyrodiil did not "throw the other provinces under the bus" they flat out said "no" to the demands and then the Imperial Legions got their butts handed to them and the heartland of the Empire was devastated by war. They managed to get clever enough to get basically favorable terms of surrender, but the idea that the Empire could have just turned around and continued to wage war without consequences is pretty much baseless. Among other things, Cyrodiil shares a considerable land border with the Dominion that the rest of the provinces do not, and Hammerfell also got really, really badly beaten up while resisting the Dominion, with much of the southern part (IE the part that the Dominion claimed in the Concordant) of the province basically in ruins, so its not like they made off like bandits or anything, it just took them another 5 years of both sides grinding down before the Dominion gave up.

Maybe not "soon as..", Cyrodill kept fighting for a while.

But they did fold first. Cyrodill was the only province of the Empire to be actually occupied, and it's all it took to bring an entire continent-spamming Empire to its knee.

The other provinces, including Hammerfell, still had some fights in them. But the Emperor gave them up and Talos for Cyrodill's sake.

Incorrect. Hammerfell was also occupied. The original demand for the Concordant was basically that the Dominion got to keep the parts of Hammerfell they were occupying already.

[GloatingSwine]

This is such a complete misrepresentation of what actually happened, its appalling to me people keep saying it.

Cyrodiil did not "throw the other provinces under the bus" they flat out said "no" to the demands and then the Imperial Legions got their butts handed to them and the heartland of the Empire was devastated by war. They managed to get clever enough to get basically favorable terms of surrender, but the idea that the Empire could have just turned around and continued to wage war without consequences is pretty much baseless.

The terms of surrender was that they gave the Dominion everything it was originally asking for and now Imperial generals are basically subservient to Thalmor ambassadors.

Nobody is saying that a victory wouldn't have been costly, but Hammerfell alone secured that victory. One province, fighting alone, won.

That inescapably means that the Empire's surrender was unnecessary. One province that made up less than a quarter of the fighting strength of the whole was able to win.

[Keltest]

The terms of surrender was that they gave the Dominion everything it was originally asking for and now Imperial generals are basically subservient to Thalmor ambassadors.

Nobody is saying that a victory wouldn't have been costly, but Hammerfell alone secured that victory. One province, fighting alone, won.

That inescapably means that the Empire's surrender was unnecessary. One province that made up less than a quarter of the fighting strength of the whole was able to win.

It really doesn't. That whole "shares a land border" thing is a pretty massive logistical hurdle to overcome.

Beyond that, I find it fascinating that the idea that Skyrim should sacrifice for Cyrodiil is treated as a tragedy and a weakness of the Empire, but the idea that Cyrodill should sacrifice for Hammerfell is just expected from them. Why aren't you treating Hammerfell to the same standards you do Cyrodiil?

[Rynjin]

The terms of surrender was that they gave the Dominion everything it was originally asking for and now Imperial generals are basically subservient to Thalmor ambassadors.

Nobody is saying that a victory wouldn't have been costly, but Hammerfell alone secured that victory. One province, fighting alone, won.

That inescapably means that the Empire's surrender was unnecessary. One province that made up less than a quarter of the fighting strength of the whole was able to win.

Are you...under the impression that Hammerfell was facing off against the Dominion's entire army? Or even the biggest chunk? Because that's not how wars work.

[Resileaf]

You're probably right. But I never killed Vivec - I quite liked the guy, actually - and he seemed competent to keep the place ticking over until he could bow out graciously. It never occurred to me he'd drop a nuke on his way out the door.

Although he didn't purposefully drop the nuke because he just disappeared and his power freezing the meteor in place stopped working, would it really be a surprise if he had dropped a nuke before leaving? He left the meteor in place, with all of its momentum intact, instead of destroying it or actually break it's momentum. Baar Dau was always an unspoken threat toward Vvanderfell.

"Stop worshipping me and I'm letting all of you die."

Even knowing that his power was going to fade after the Nerevarine destroyed the Heart of Lorkhan, he made no effort to prevent the meteor from continuing its course on the day his power would be completely gone. He never warned anyone. He was fully content in watching Morrowind die with him.