Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)

[Cikomyr2]

At least some Imperial accounts indicate that Ulfric was in fact being pursued by the guards. I don't believe Ulfric comments on it either way.

Oh? Ill go look the quotes. Do you remember which character?

[Keltest]

Oh? Ill go look the quotes. Do you remember which character?

I... Think it was someone in the Solitude court? Or involving the execution?

[Grim Portent]

I kind of think Roggvir gets executed less for the actual act of letting Ulfric through the gate, I doubt there's much he could have done to stop him on short notice anyway, and more for publically denying that what Ulfric did is murder.

If Roggvir's reaction upon finding out what happened was to go 'oh no, what have I done?' and throw himself at his commander's mercy I imagine he would have gotten off with whatever menial penal duty the Solitude guard has. Latrine cleaning, potato peeling or scrubbing gull poop off a statue, a month of night watches, that sort of thing.

Instead his reaction was something like 'It was a duel? Well in that case I did nothing wrong, duels are legal according to our customs and so I shouldn't have detained Ulfric even if I could.' I can't imagine that made the authorities who all liked the deceased High King all that happy with him, and in turn led to trumped up charges.

[Cikomyr2]

I kind of think Roggvir gets executed less for the actual act of letting Ulfric through the gate, I doubt there's much he could have done to stop him on short notice anyway, and more for publically denying that what Ulfric did is murder.

If Roggvir's reaction upon finding out what happened was to go 'oh no, what have I done?' and throw himself at his commander's mercy I imagine he would have gotten off with whatever menial penal duty the Solitude guard has. Latrine cleaning, potato peeling or scrubbing gull poop off a statue, a month of night watches, that sort of thing.

Instead his reaction was something like 'It was a duel? Well in that case I did nothing wrong, duels are legal according to our customs and so I shouldn't have detained Ulfric even if I could.' I can't imagine that made the authorities who all liked the deceased High King all that happy with him, and in turn led to trumped up charges.

Well, i believe he gets executed mostly to enforce a legal lie. The notion that Torygg was "murdered".

If Torygg was murdered, then Roggvir facilitated his killer's escape. Even unwittingly, he was accessory to murder.

If the duel was legal, then Roggvir did his duty to the letter.

Since the Empire cannot accept the notion that the duel was legal, they have to cut off Roggvir's head.

[Rynjin]

I suspect it was probably delayed by debate over the legitimacy of Ulfric's challenging of Torygg. If he was genuinely the king, or at least acting within legal bounds for the terms of the duel, then obeying his commands, opening the gate and otherwise not stopping him isnt a crime.

Even by the Nords' own laws, Ulfric wasn't king yet just because he killed Torygg. He would still need to be confirmed by a council of other kings at the Moot before he could take his place as High King; which is why he still isn't as we start the game.

Did Roggvir even know that Ulfric had killed the High King as he let him out? I don't believe you never get an IC answer to that; but it's important to establish guilt [if he didn't, he was 'simply doing his job' and thus innocent].

He seemed to, as the only defense he offered at his execution was this:

"There was no murder! Ulfric challenged Torygg. He beat the High King in fair combat."..."Such is our way! Such is the ancient custom of Skyrim, and all Nords!"

I feel like if he didn't know and agree with what Ulfric did his first defense would be "I saw the Jarl of Windhelm fleeing for his life, and moved to help him as any citizen would! I didn't know he had committed a crime!"

While I generally think the Imperial side is the better choice (mainly for pragmatic reasons, as I don't think either side comes off great from a moral standpoint), I think they mostly look very hypocritical in regards to the fight between Ulfric and the High King. I wonder if they would've considered it murder if Torygg had won?

Ulfric is the one who issued the challenge, so Torygg was just defending himself. Mind you he'd probably be called a dumbass for even accepting an honor duel in the first place.

Which is the most frustratingly hypocritical part of Ulfric's point about Torygg in the first place. With one breath he belittles him for being "too weak" to be king of Skyrim, and with another praises him for having the courage to actually accept the duel and fight like a Nord.

I think it's a real missed opportunity for one of the endings to the Civil War not being that you get to just challenge him to a duel in his throneroom on first meeting him and then call him a weak bitch after he gets ripped apart.

[Cikomyr2]

I mean, we can definetly, DEFINETLY call out Ulfric for his selective following of "Nord Traditions".

He refuses to call a Moot because he's afraid the other Jarls would give the crown to Ellisif. Despite the High King being a position that can ***only*** be given by a Moot of the Jarls.

Also, ive recently read that apparently these duels were hardly "to the death". Usually the winner ended up High King and the loser in exile. But Ulfric decided to kill the young king to make a point.

Ultimately, i think a lot repose on Ulfric's bad decision making. I believe he is genuine in his faith and love of his people, but will throw away principles to pursue these goals in a way he sees fit, rather than acknowledge some rules can be more important than his judgement.

I.e. he wants to do what's right but man is he stupid the way he goes about it.

[Batcathat]

Mind you he'd probably be called a dumbass for even accepting an honor duel in the first place.

Yes, that is very much my opinion on him, yet another old-fashioned idiot who thinks that "honorable" is better than intelligent. Which is also why I have a hard time taking the people (whether in or out of universe) who complain about Ulfric winning "unfairly" seriously. If you're in a fight to the death, you'd be an idiot not to use every tool at your disposal.

Which is the most frustratingly hypocritical part of Ulfric's point about Torygg in the first place. With one breath he belittles him for being "too weak" to be king of Skyrim, and with another praises him for having the courage to actually accept the duel and fight like a Nord.

I don't actually think this is hypocritical. Torygg can be brave enough to accept the challenge, yet also not strong enough to win and/or rule the country.

Now, I don't think being a good fighter has much to do with being a good leader (and if I never again see another plot where someone can become the leader by fighting the current leader, it'll be too soon) but that's clearly in line with Nord culture.

[Rynjin]

The issue is that an honor duel is meant to be ritualized. It's not just "a fight to the death", it's a fight where people agree on terms.

If you and I agree to duel at noon, with sabers, and you pull out your Glock and kill me...yeah I'm dead, but that doesn't mean you "won the duel", it means you broke the terms of said duel and now it's just murder.

Typically this is what seconds would be there to help enforce, but I guess Nord dueling isn't that sophisticated.

[ArlEammon]

The issue is that an honor duel is meant to be ritualized. It's not just "a fight to the death", it's a fight where people agree on terms.

If you and I agree to duel at noon, with sabers, and you pull out your Glock and kill me...yeah I'm dead, but that doesn't mean you "won the duel", it means you broke the terms of said duel and now it's just murder.

Typically this is what seconds would be there to help enforce, but I guess Nord dueling isn't that sophisticated.

Maybe Ulfric's use of the Thu'um was just a loop hole.

[Batcathat]

The issue is that an honor duel is meant to be ritualized. It's not just "a fight to the death", it's a fight where people agree on terms.

If you and I agree to duel at noon, with sabers, and you pull out your Glock and kill me...yeah I'm dead, but that doesn't mean you "won the duel", it means you broke the terms of said duel and now it's just murder.

Typically this is what seconds would be there to help enforce, but I guess Nord dueling isn't that sophisticated.

Indeed. And if the duel in question had a rule banning what Ulfric did, I could see it being called murder or at least some sort of crime. But unless I've missed something, even the people bashing Ulfric for it never seem to say it's against the rules. He might be dishonorable, he might be the duel equivalent of a dog playing basketball, but I don't think he actually broke any terms.

[Cikomyr2]

The issue is that an honor duel is meant to be ritualized. It's not just "a fight to the death", it's a fight where people agree on terms.

If you and I agree to duel at noon, with sabers, and you pull out your Glock and kill me...yeah I'm dead, but that doesn't mean you "won the duel", it means you broke the terms of said duel and now it's just murder.

Typically this is what seconds would be there to help enforce, but I guess Nord dueling isn't that sophisticated.

And sometimes, a duel is "both fighter go at it to the best of their capabilities".

The use of Tu'um was unorthodox not because it broke some ancient tradition of "no magic", but because it was rarely used since so few people nowaday knows how to master the Tu'um. What was once a proud tradition and god-given power of the Nord people has dwindled down to the point where you can count the Nords able to master it on the finger of your hand.

The Tu'um has been part of Nord culture ever since Kyne and Paarthunax taught them how to use it.

[ArlEammon]

And sometimes, a duel is "both fighter go at it to the best of their capabilities".

The use of Tu'um was unorthodox not because it broke some ancient tradition of "no magic", but because it was rarely used since so few people nowaday knows how to master the Tu'um. What was once a proud tradition and god-given power of the Nord people has dwindled down to the point where you can count the Nords able to master it on the finger of your hand.

The Tu'um has been part of Nord culture ever since Kyne and Paarthunax taught them how to use it.

This is why that, rather than it being morally correct, even according to Nords, I see this as being potentially "Un-Nord" in spirit. The Chinese invented gun powder. When they dueled each other I don't think that one duelist shooting at the other with a machine gun makes sense, even though it originates in Chinese culture, unless the other side also has a fire arm.

[GloatingSwine]

Ulfric is the one who issued the challenge, so Torygg was just defending himself. Mind you he'd probably be called a dumbass for even accepting an honor duel in the first place.

If you live in a culture where duels of honour are fought and you decline a challenge you also concede whatever the challenge is about. If Torygg had declined the duel he would have revealed himself to be weak and unfit to rule.

Evidently Nords don't allow for a champion in such duels.

We don't know what the code duello is for the Nords and what is or is not allowed. (Though we do know the one for the Altmer in the 2nd era.)

[Mr Blobby]

Well, that would explain why Tullius starts by saying 'No man would kill his King with The Voice...' However, my bet is there being rules for dueling, but not that many. More the sorts to stop you having to fend off a duel while sitting on the latrine armed only with a glorified dinner knife. However, it may be that the 'loophole abuse' was more Ulfric noticing that it was still technically legal but hadn't been done in centuries.

Yes, that is very much my opinion on him, yet another old-fashioned idiot who thinks that "honorable" is better than intelligent. Which is also why I have a hard time taking the people (whether in or out of universe) who complain about Ulfric winning "unfairly" seriously. If you're in a fight to the death, you'd be an idiot not to use every tool at your disposal.

Except traditional Nord culture does have some no-nos. Magic, for example is held to be something those snotty Bretons and 'weak' elves favour and they're not likely to look well on shooting down your opponent with a poisoned bow either. Which suggests 'the Thu'um as loophole abuse' as it's both 'traditional' but also something few can stand against successfully [which also makes you wonder if it is 'another loophole' to fight a duel in wolf-man form].

[Rynjin]

If you live in a culture where duels of honour are fought and you decline a challenge you also concede whatever the challenge is about. If Torygg had declined the duel he would have revealed himself to be weak and unfit to rule.

Right, which is where my comment about hypocrisy comes in. Ulfric's entire issue with Torygg is that he's "not Nord enough".

But if he was truly that corrupted by Imperial ideals he would have declined the duel and relied on the political backing of the Empire to ensure he stays in his seat. By accepting the duel at all, he essentially proves Ulfric wrong.

Torygg is still a Nord, with a Nord's pride and respect for Nord culture. Which leaves any other disagreements he and Ulfric have as purely political.

That takes a lot of wind out of the sails of Ulfric's movement in terms of being purely in the right from a "Nord perspective". And so he chooses to paint Torygg as a weak coward instead of what he actually was: a brave man with different political views and less personal combat prowess than Ulfric.

And sometimes, a duel is "both fighter go at it to the best of their capabilities".

The use of Tu'um was unorthodox not because it broke some ancient tradition of "no magic", but because it was rarely used since so few people nowaday knows how to master the Tu'um. What was once a proud tradition and god-given power of the Nord people has dwindled down to the point where you can count the Nords able to master it on the finger of your hand.

The Tu'um has been part of Nord culture ever since Kyne and Paarthunax taught them how to use it.

This is I think another thing that puts Ulfric on the wrong foot. The Thu'um is absolutely part of Nord culture, and is part of their cultural power.

But that cultural power also comes with cultural responsibility. Not just to the Way of the Voice, which teaches that the Thu'um must not be used for personal or political gain, but to the even deeper aspect of the culture that the Thu'um is meant to be used solely as a weapon against evils which cannot be fought by traditional means.

Using the Voice to slay Torygg is similar in concept to someone unsheathing the Holy Sword of Demon Slaying to murder a political rival. That is not a power meant to be used against those with mere mortal disagreements with each other, but should be reserved for fighting threats beyond the ken of most mortal men.

And I find it notable that Ulfric doesn't hesitate to unleash the Voice against a man powerless to stand against it, but raises not a finger to use it against the return of the ancient foe it was designed to defeat.

That is my personal theory for why there's "no law against shouting your opponent to death!": because the ancient Nords who laid down these laws, after the atrocities the earliest Nords committed with them, would have been appalled at the very idea of using the Thu'um for something so petty.

[Batcathat]

Except traditional Nord culture does have some no-nos. Magic, for example is held to be something those snotty Bretons and 'weak' elves favour and they're not likely to look well on shooting down your opponent with a poisoned bow either. Which suggests 'the Thu'um as loophole abuse' as it's both 'traditional' but also something few can stand against successfully [which also makes you wonder if it is 'another loophole' to fight a duel in wolf-man form].

Yes, maybe magic would be against the rules or maybe it would just be met with disapproval. We don't know their exact rules, but considering the fact that even Ulfric's enemies doesn't seem to suggest that he actually broke the rules, it seems unlikely that he did.

Right, which is where my comment about hypocrisy comes in. Ulfric's entire issue with Torygg is that he's "not Nord enough".

But if he was truly that corrupted by Imperial ideals he would have declined the duel and relied on the political backing of the Empire to ensure he stays in his seat. By accepting the duel at all, he essentially proves Ulfric wrong.

So if he had declined the duel, that would've proven Ulfric correct? I don't think it's an either or situation. Clearly it's possible to be devoted to both the Empire and Nord culture, just look at Rikke. Exactly where Ulfric draws the line of "not Nord enough" is obviously subjective, but I don't think it's hypocritical.

[GloatingSwine]

Right, which is where my comment about hypocrisy comes in. Ulfric's entire issue with Torygg is that he's "not Nord enough".

But if he was truly that corrupted by Imperial ideals he would have declined the duel and relied on the political backing of the Empire to ensure he stays in his seat. By accepting the duel at all, he essentially proves Ulfric wrong.

That only goes so far. It's not what Torygg thinks or believes, it's what everyone else thinks of him. The Empire isn't strong enough to keep him as the High King if the people and Jarls of Skyrim think otherwise. The Empire can barely keep its own territory intact, let alone impose its will on other provinces.

Well, that would explain why Tullius starts by saying 'No man would kill his King with The Voice...' However, my bet is there being rules for dueling, but not that many.

Tullius is also an Imperial though.

I suspect that use of the Voice is completely acceptable in Nord duelling because, unlike magic, it's of the body not Aetherius.

[Rynjin]

That only goes so far. It's not what Torygg thinks or believes, it's what everyone else thinks of him. The Empire isn't strong enough to keep him as the High King if the people and Jarls of Skyrim think otherwise. The Empire can barely keep its own territory intact, let alone impose its will on other provinces.

Perhaps, but I find it interesting that that implies that no matter WHAT the outcome of this duel was, a civil war would have started anyway. I wonder if Ulfric had thought through these avenues of possibility before inciting it?

[Batcathat]

Perhaps, but I find it interesting that that implies that no matter WHAT the outcome of this duel was, a civil war would have started anyway. I wonder if Ulfric had thought through these avenues of possibility before inciting it?

Yeah, I kind of assume the war was more or less unavoidable at that point. Maybe it could've been avoided if Ulfric had lost the duel in a manner his followers would consider fair, but even in that case I'm guessing there would at least be some unrest, considering the issues Ulfric championed won't go away just because he does.

Personally, I think Torygg's best move would've been to imprison this clearly rebellious jarl and then move as quickly as possible to neutralize his followers. It would probably still have been war, but the imperial side would've started out in a much better position. The obvious drawback is that such a "dishonorable" move might've costed him some support, but I suspect the situation was already polarized enough by then that it wouldn't have made a ton of difference. (Of course, all of this is wildly speculative).

[Keltest]

Yes, maybe magic would be against the rules or maybe it would just be met with disapproval. We don't know their exact rules, but considering the fact that even Ulfric's enemies doesn't seem to suggest that he actually broke the rules, it seems unlikely that he did.

Thats absolutely not true, the entire pro-Empire line is that Ulfric's duel was not legitimate. All of his enemies think he broke the rules, thats why theyre his enemies.

[Errorname]

Perhaps, but I find it interesting that that implies that no matter WHAT the outcome of this duel was, a civil war would have started anyway.

Yeah, probably

Tension had been building from years, all the fuel for a civil war was laid, and no matter how that duel ends it's a spark

[Batcathat]

Thats absolutely not true, the entire pro-Empire line is that Ulfric's duel was not legitimate. All of his enemies think he broke the rules, thats why theyre his enemies.

Do you have any quotes on that? I might've missed something but while I remember them complaining a lot about how he won, I don't remember them actually saying he broke any rules. (Also, I'm pretty sure they would've been his enemies no matter how he won).

[Keltest]

Do you have any quotes on that? I might've missed something but while I remember them complaining a lot about how he won, I don't remember them actually saying he broke any rules. (Also, I'm pretty sure they would've been his enemies no matter how he won).

What do you think they mean when they say he murdered Torygg? The main opinion isnt that he broke any rules as such, its that the entire duel was illegitimate in the first place and has no legal standing. Ulfric seems to at least tacitly agree with this position, as he doesn't think the Moot will choose him as High King unless he places his own Jarls in power before hand, and otherwise seeks other symbols to boost his legitimacy.

[Batcathat]

What do you think they mean when they say he murdered Torygg? The main opinion isnt that he broke any rules as such, its that the entire duel was illegitimate in the first place and has no legal standing. Ulfric seems to at least tacitly agree with this position, as he doesn't think the Moot will choose him as High King unless he places his own Jarls in power before hand, and otherwise seeks other symbols to boost his legitimacy.

The fact that the High King accepted the duel suggest that it was legitimate, I think. So if the duel itself was legitimate (or at least that the High King was as guilty of fighting in an illegitimate duel as Ulfric), then the method must be the problem, but there seems to be no actual rules against the method in question.

[Keltest]

The fact that the High King accepted the duel suggest that it was legitimate, I think. So if the duel itself was legitimate (or at least that the High King was as guilty of fighting in an illegitimate duel as Ulfric), then the method must be the problem, but there seems to be no actual rules against the method in question.

Thats sort of like saying there arent any actual rules about how to shank someone with a knife in a gang fight.

[Batcathat]

Thats sort of like saying there arent any actual rules about how to shank someone with a knife in a gang fight.

No, I'm saying that if the High King agreed to the duel (which by all accounts he did), then it was a legitimate duel (or close enough to it, considering it had implicit approval of the highest authority around) held according to whatever rules apply and none of those rules seem to forbid using the Voice.

If Ulfric had just stormed into the room and killed Torygg? Yeah, that would've been murder, whether or not he used the Thu'um. But it appears he issued a challenge and Torygg accepted it, which certainly makes it seem a lot less murdery, in my opinion.

[Keltest]

No, I'm saying that if the High King agreed to the duel (which by all accounts he did), then it was a legitimate duel (or close enough to it, considering it had implicit approval of the highest authority around) held according to whatever rules apply and none of those rules seem to forbid using the Voice.

If Ulfric had just stormed into the room and killed Torygg? Yeah, that would've been murder, whether or not he used the Thu'um. But it appears he issued a challenge and Torygg accepted it, which certainly makes it seem a lot less murdery, in my opinion.

Legitimate in what way? Just because he agreed to it doesnt mean it has any legal authority, or indeed that he had any practical ability to say no (which Ulfric admits to forcing him into). For that matter, they sure didn't sit there and hash out terms.

[Batcathat]

Legitimate in what way? Just because he agreed to it doesnt mean it has any legal authority, or indeed that he had any practical ability to say no (which Ulfric admits to forcing him into). For that matter, they sure didn't sit there and hash out terms.

Of course he had the ability to say no. He simply had to decide to sacrifice his honor in order to possibly avert war instead of sacrificing his life for basically no reason (well, I suppose he'll get a nice seat in Sovngarde for his trouble). It was certainly a tricky situation, which was no doubt Ulfric's intention, but he had more than one option.

As for terms, the challenge was specifically according to old Nord traditions, which presumably came with certain rules. And if they didn't, well, then using the Thu'um certainly wasn't against them.

Whether or not it was actually legitimate is presumably a question for Skyrim's lawyers, but at the very least the highest legal authority in the land accepted the duel, which certainly gives the impression that it was legitimate.

[Rynjin]

Though, as mentioned upthread, denying the challenge would have likely also led to a war.

Genuinely I think the only "winning" play for Torygg and a unified Skyrim would be for Torygg to accept the challenge and win. As I see it once the gauntlet was thrown there are only a few possibilities.

-Ulfric wins, causing a schism between imperial loyalists and "true Nords".
-Torygg declines the challenge, causing a schism between imperial loyalists and "true Nords".
-Torygg wins, proving his strength and right to rule, thus averting the conflict for a while (though probably only until the next High King)
-Torygg has Ulfric assassinated, causing a schism between imperial loyalists and "true Nords"

Essentially Ulfric put Torygg into a situation where the only moral option is to take up his sword and try to prevent a war.

[Keltest]

Of course he had the ability to say no. He simply had to decide to sacrifice his honor in order to possibly avert war instead of sacrificing his life for basically no reason (well, I suppose he'll get a nice seat in Sovngarde for his trouble). It was certainly a tricky situation, which was no doubt Ulfric's intention, but he had more than one option.

As for terms, the challenge was specifically according to old Nord traditions, which presumably came with certain rules. And if they didn't, well, then using the Thu'um certainly wasn't against them.

Whether or not it was actually legitimate is presumably a question for Skyrim's lawyers, but at the very least the highest legal authority in the land accepted the duel, which certainly gives the impression that it was legitimate.

Given that fully half the country (to say nothing of the government they answer to) rejected its legitimacy, I think its safe to say that Torygg accepting did not legitimize it except in the eyes of the people who had already decided that Ulfric was right.