Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)

[Resileaf]

In the sense that the legion and stormcloaks had been skirmishing, because the legion was trying to kill Ulfric? Yes. In the sense that Ulfric had invaded another Hold? No.

As far as I'm aware there were no major stormcloak attacks until the battle for Whiterun. Up until that point Ulfric was trying to sway the Jarls with diplomacy and contain the fighting between him and the legion.

So the civil war had started but it hadn't started at the same time so it's not fair that the Empire captured him in battle?

What?

[Keltest]

In the sense that the legion and stormcloaks had been skirmishing, because the legion was trying to kill Ulfric? Yes. In the sense that Ulfric had invaded another Hold? No.

As far as I'm aware there were no major stormcloak attacks until the battle for Whiterun. Up until that point Ulfric was trying to sway the Jarls with diplomacy and contain the fighting between him and the legion.

You are mistaken. If you do the Season Unending quest, Tullius and Ulfric both refer to several different battles between the Stormcloaks and the Legion

[druid91]

You are mistaken. If you do the Season Unending quest, Tullius and Ulfric both refer to several different battles between the Stormcloaks and the Legion

I don't recall that, and don't see that dialogue in the wiki. They talk about potential battles for the most part and there was cut content where they might berate the Dragonborn for not favoring them.

[Cikomyr2]

He... isnt though. Thats the point. He knows he isnt actually acting in accordance with skyrim laws or traditions, thats why he's seizing power by military force instead of just becoming High King, you know, legally.

The word "tradition" again has a lot of weight.

You are right that recent tradition has definetly not allowed duelling to replace the High King.

But, as it has been said many times in the game, the Moot and the whole "Jarls approve a High King" has been a rubber stamp of the Emperor's choice for centuries. That is the tradition currently followed in Skyrim, and Ulfric wants to change that.

To change that is to explicitly defy the Emperor. No matter what, you are branded a Traitor to the Empire. There is no "legal" way to defy the Emperor, because the Emperor's word of Law.

[Keltest]

I don't recall that, and don't see that dialogue in the wiki. They talk about potential battles for the most part and there was cut content where they might berate the Dragonborn for not favoring them.

If you favor one side during the negotiations, then the other side will demand compensation for an attack on their territory by their opposite number.

The word "tradition" again has a lot of weight.

You are right that recent tradition has definetly not allowed duelling to replace the High King.

But, as it has been said many times in the game, the Moot and the whole "Jarls approve a High King" has been a rubber stamp of the Emperor's choice for centuries. That is the tradition currently followed in Skyrim, and Ulfric wants to change that.

To change that is to explicitly defy the Emperor. No matter what, you are branded a Traitor to the Empire. There is no "legal" way to defy the Emperor, because the Emperor's word of Law.

The part you are passing over is that a very good portion of the Jarls (more than half!) don't want to defy the Emperor. The problem is not the Emperor or the Empire, the problem is that Skyrim is still very signficantly pro-empire, and Ulfric apparently cannot accept getting outvoted on this matter.

[druid91]

So the civil war had started but it hadn't started at the same time so it's not fair that the Empire captured him in battle?

What?

The civil war had started between Stormcloaks and the Empire.

Until Whiterun, that did not include the Jarls.

[Keltest]

The civil war had started between Stormcloaks and the Empire.

Until Whiterun, that did not include the Jarls.

No? Right at the beginning of the game, Balgruuf's advisor is concerned that garrisoning Riverwood would be seen as joining Ulfric's side and preparing to attack Falkreath. The Jarls are absolutely already involved, to say nothing of the fact that just under half of them have already openly joined the rebellion.

[druid91]

No? Right at the beginning of the game, Balgruuf's advisor is concerned that garrisoning Riverwood would be seen as joining Ulfric's side and preparing to attack Falkreath. The Jarls are absolutely already involved, to say nothing of the fact that just under half of them have already openly joined the rebellion.

Balgruuf is threading a very fine line of neutrality to try and maintain the peace in the hopes things will solve themselves.

He's the only neutral Jarl and the deciding vote of a potential Moot. People are watching him and his actions closely.

[Keltest]

Balgruuf is threading a very fine line of neutrality to try and maintain the peace in the hopes things will solve themselves.

He's the only neutral Jarl and the deciding vote of a potential Moot. People are watching him and his actions closely.

... Yes. He's the only neutral Jarl. As in all the other Jarls are openly on one side or the other.

[druid91]

... Yes. He's the only neutral Jarl. As in all the other Jarls are openly on one side or the other.

Which doesn't mean the Stormcloaks have invaded holds and deposed Jarls yet.

[Keltest]

Which doesn't mean the Stormcloaks have invaded holds and deposed Jarls yet.

What does that have to do with anything? Theyre in a stalemate, not a ceasefire.

[druid91]

What does that have to do with anything? Theyre in a stalemate, not a ceasefire.

More accurately, they're in a cold war. There's skirmishing and jockeying for advantage but neither side has conducted a major offensive yet.

The first major attack is the ambush that captures Ulfric, followed by the battle of Whiterun.

[Keltest]

More accurately, they're in a cold war. There's skirmishing and jockeying for advantage but neither side has conducted a major offensive yet.

The first major attack is the ambush that captures Ulfric, followed by the battle of Whiterun.

Ok, then we're back to that being flat out incorrect. We know there were other battles because Ulfric and Tullius talk about them.

[druid91]

Ok, then we're back to that being flat out incorrect. We know there were other battles because Ulfric and Tullius talk about them.

I looked that up. Tullius and Rikke accuse Galmar of conducting a massacre at Karthwasten... But there's literally no evidence of it whatsoever.

Nobody there is dead. Nobody can be asked about a massacre, it's still an actively occupied town mostly occupied by reachmen.

[Keltest]

I looked that up. Tullius and Rikke accuse Galmar of conducting a massacre at Karthwasten... But there's literally no evidence of it whatsoever.

Nobody there is dead. Nobody can be asked about a massacre, it's still an actively occupied town mostly occupied by reachmen.

Ulfric denies it because of course he does. However, if you favor the Imperials, Ulfric accuses the Empire of a massacre, and in Riften there is a man whose daughter died in a battle against Imperial forces.

[druid91]

Ulfric denies it because of course he does. However, if you favor the Imperials, Ulfric accuses the Empire of a massacre, and in Riften there is a man whose daughter died in a battle against Imperial forces.

I literally said there was skirmishing with Imperial Legion.

Also, no. That was intended to be in the mission but was cut. The only discussion of a massacre is Karthwasten. The Stormcloaks always demand additional land.

[Keltest]

I literally said there was skirmishing with Imperial Legion.

Also, no. That was intended to be in the mission but was cut. The only discussion of a massacre is Karthwasten. The Stormcloaks always demand additional land.

So it only counts if you say it counts then?

[Resileaf]

More accurately, they're in a cold war. There's skirmishing and jockeying for advantage but neither side has conducted a major offensive yet.

The first major attack is the ambush that captures Ulfric, followed by the battle of Whiterun.

That is not a cold war. It's a civil war in its opening moves, where both sides are gathering strength and taking stock of the situation while skirmishing, but the war is most definitely hot and ongoing. At the start of the war, Ulfric had good success against Imperial troops and that situation got turned around when Tullius arrived with reinforcements and his expertise to deal with that kind of conflict. The ambush where Ulfric is captured is a trap set by Tullius as he made it known to the Stormcloaks that more Imperial reinforcements were incoming at the border, so when Ulfric went with his army to intercept those reinforcements, he was set upon by Tullius' troops and captured.

[druid91]

So it only counts if you say it counts then?

Do you not see a difference between "Skirmishes with Imperial Soldiers trying to kill all the Stormcloaks and capture Ulfric." And "Full scale invasion of a hold with intent to unseat it's Jarl and appoint a new more favorable one."?

[Keltest]

Do you not see a difference between "Skirmishes with Imperial Soldiers trying to kill all the Stormcloaks and capture Ulfric." And "Full scale invasion of a hold with intent to unseat it's Jarl and appoint a new more favorable one."?

As far as "are they in a state of open war?" No.

[druid91]

That is not a cold war. It's a civil war in its opening moves, where both sides are gathering strength and taking stock of the situation while skirmishing, but the war is most definitely hot and ongoing. At the start of the war, Ulfric had good success against Imperial troops and that situation got turned around when Tullius arrived with reinforcements and his expertise to deal with that kind of conflict. The ambush where Ulfric is captured is a trap set by Tullius as he made it known to the Stormcloaks that more Imperial reinforcements were incoming at the border, so when Ulfric went with his army to intercept those reinforcements, he was set upon by Tullius' troops and captured.

Where are you getting all that from? I was under the impression the ambush is left vague with little to no details about it.

[Resileaf]

Where are you getting all that from? I was under the impression the ambush is left vague with little to no details about it.

A missive in one of the forts, indicating that the Stormcloaks knew of reinforcements coming from Pale Pass (where the ambush takes place and the player is captured along with the Stormcloaks). That Tullius knew that the Stormcloaks were coming is a very strong indication that he intended for this information to reach Ulfrik.

[Cikomyr2]

The part you are passing over is that a very good portion of the Jarls (more than half!) don't want to defy the Emperor. The problem is not the Emperor or the Empire, the problem is that Skyrim is still very signficantly pro-empire, and Ulfric apparently cannot accept getting outvoted on this matter.

I am not passing it. This is the very thing Ulfric wants to change. He wants to lead the way in open defiance to the Emperor.

He is basically filibustering the Moot until he managed to change the votes to his liking. Because, to Proventus's admission, most Jarls have accepted to do the Empire's bidding.. because the gold.

I.e. the central government bribing local officials to make sure they enforce the central government's rules and decisions.

[Keltest]

I am not passing it. This is the very thing Ulfric wants to change. He wants to lead the way in open defiance to the Emperor.

He is basically filibustering the Moot until he managed to change the votes to his liking. Because, to Proventus's admission, most Jarls have accepted to do the Empire's bidding.. because the gold.

I.e. the central government bribing local officials to make sure they enforce the central government's rules and decisions.

So which is it, is the Empure's might unassailable or is he just part of the voting minority?

[Mr Blobby]

Right, but in this scenario it's not a legitimate duel. That's my point. If Torygg's supporters are actually so upset about the duel being illegitimate (and not about the fact that they don't like who won it), then it would be equally illegitimate if Torygg won.

Anyhow, I doubt we'll ever know enough about the laws of the matter to tell for sure whether or not it was actually legitimate. I stand by the fact that Torygg (not only being the challenged party, but the High King of Skyrim) accepting the challenge makes the duel legitimate enough. He had options, he choose accepting it.

I am 95% sure the duel will be ruled 'legitimate' if Ulfric wins the civil war, and 'illegitimate' if he loses. Just like Uriel III would have been the 'legitimate' Emperor if he [and his mother, Potema] had won the War of the Red Diamond five centuries before, and not a usurper/pretender. To a certain extent, yes might does make right - it's as simple as that. Stuff like 'legitimacy' or 'just cause' shall get retconned in afterwards.

Anyway, all four human empires have been feudal in nature. The Emperor does not 'rule' directly; they operate through their vassals - in the Septim Empire, the only two orgs which directly answered to the Emperor was the Blades and Legion [which they then use to bribe/blackmail/persuade/bully their subordinates]. A strong Emperor has their vassals on a fairly short leash, a weak Emperor doesn't [in fact, this caused the rise of the Dominion; the old Altmer 'vassal kings' were too weak to resist the Thalmor overthrowing them and there was no Emperor to move directly to prop them up].

It is important to not apply modern views of 'statecraft' and politics to something which is quite clearly more akin to a pseudo-mediaeval era.

You are mistaken. If you do the Season Unending quest, Tullius and Ulfric both refer to several different battles between the Stormcloaks and the Legion

There's the occasional refrence that the scrap has been going for years. That shopkeeper in Falkreath says he was basically 'invalided out' of the Stormcloaks after a battle by Windhelm 'years ago'.

The flip side of that is that Nords make up a fairly significant portion of the imperial legions. Legate Rikke is a nord, for example. And Ulfric will flat out refuse to attack Solitude while the Emperor is there, because if the Emperor is hurt or killed then Cyrodiil will march its armies into Skyrim and crush the Stormcloaks, Implying that the current imperial forces are just the regular standing army for Skyrim.

A Legion Legate [can't remember who] outright says the Legion is so under-strength/provisioned because they're not a priority; that the bulk of the funds/personel are going to defend the Imperial-Dominion border. To a certain extent, Ulfric is getting away with it because the Emperor is too busy staring at the Altmer and Tullius is following a 'force in being' strategy because he knows he cannot make good easily combat losses [I mean, they don't even send forces to clear bandit castles so they can occupy them].

...For me, it just proves the Empire is weaker than the sum of its parts. Its corrupt internal politics prevents if from organizing properly. The only thing it truly controls it the centralized army, which is more busy playing the internal game of politics and corruption than actually projecting power.

It is genuinely like the 5th century western roman empire. The central state is more of a parasite for its province, used to sucking off wealth and troops for its own purpose rather than develop the local economies. There is a reason certain roman enclaves cut off from Rome managed to last actually longer and wealthier than Italy did.

I will argue this; the Mede Empire suffered mainly due to historical incompetence - they did not take the Dominion threat seriously. Thus, they were totally caught with their pants down with the invasion, assisted by the fact the Dominion had effectively neutralised the Imperial spy network and didn't get any warning. This 'element of surprise on a under-armed and complacent empire' is not something the Dominion will ever pull off again - for example, you can bet every old 'ruined fortress' on the southern Cyrodiil-Alinor border [as known from Oblivion] have now been fully refurbished and garrisoned.

What's more, I doubt the Dominion's power could match even a rump Mede Empire if it's moblised. The Dominion really only has Summerset; I don't see Valenwood being able to contribute a ton of Bosmer for 'foreign service' and Elsweyr [as a vassal] even less. Black Marsh is independent, as is Hammerfell. That leaves three provinces [Morrowind will need to keep what forces she has to guard against an Argonian invasion] to resist - Cyrodiil, High Rock and Skyrim. Three on one and a bit? Good luck with that.

Lastly, and with hesitation [as the canon is inconstent on this] point this out; the Altmer might have a 'demographic issue'. The Great War was 25 years ago; that's long enough to start making up 'war losses' in human populations. There's been refs that elves live perhaps x4 the time humans do; does that mean it takes x4 to raise an elf to adulthood? If so, it could mean that the Altmer will be still carrying the demographic scars of the last war [esp if they lost a lot of their most experienced folks which they relied on counteracting the Imperial numerical superority].

[Grim Portent]

Lastly, and with hesitation [as the canon is inconstent on this] point this out; the Altmer might have a 'demographic issue'. The Great War was 25 years ago; that's long enough to start making up 'war losses' in human populations. There's been refs that elves live perhaps x4 the time humans do; does that mean it takes x4 to raise an elf to adulthood? If so, it could mean that the Altmer will be still carrying the demographic scars of the last war [esp if they lost a lot of their most experienced folks which they relied on counteracting the Imperial numerical superority].

The Altmer also have a culture that kills or abandons a lot of kids for not meeting their racial purity standards, though specifics aren't given. This probably relaxed under the Empire, but the Thalmor will most likely have reinstated it or even made it harsher than before. Culling or sending kids to a monastery because their ears are slightly too round or they have a cleft palatte or something is not great for the birth rate.

As far as I know elves age to biological adulthood at a similar rate to everyone else, and then just get treated as juveniles for longer, but they have waaay lower fertility. Elves can be married for hundreds of years and still have just one child, despite presumably doing the deed fairly often during that time period. It's part of why the Direnni produced the Bretons, half-elves were a more convenient way for the Direnni to bolster their numbers isolated away from other elven populations, so even beyond the odd incidental and scandalous coupling between mer and men they took concubines from among the nedic people of High Rock.

[Divayth Fyr]

Ulfric denies it because of course he does. However, if you favor the Imperials, Ulfric accuses the Empire of a massacre, and in Riften there is a man whose daughter died in a battle against Imperial forces.

Another man mentioning such battles lives in Falkreath. Notably both mention fighting between the Stormcloaks and Imperial forces occuring years before the game started, while Torygg's death was a recent development.

[Grim Portent]

IIRC the Stormcloaks were informally founded as a paramilitary as part of the Markarth Incident, which was 25 years before Skyrim starts, and it's plausible that some of them got into fights with the authorities who came to punish them for Talos worship in those 25 years between Markarth and the events of the game.

They also serve as the guards for Eastmarch, and their first fight was with the Forsworn, so not every battle they mention is necessarily against the Empire, it can also be against bandits, the Forsworn, giants, Thalmor patrols, undead and so on.

Though there is also probably some wonky timeline stuff going on. Bethesda has a history of not updating things to fit rewrites during development.

[Cikomyr2]

So which is it, is the Empure's might unassailable or is he just part of the voting minority?

Yes?

Its both. The Emperor's will cannot be defied or contained without open rebellion, and he leads the minority of Jarls who are willing to go against the Empire, and believes the majority of jarls keep their loyalty due to monetary interests rather than doing what's right for their people.

[Keltest]

Yes?

Its both. The Emperor's will cannot be defied or contained without open rebellion, and he leads the minority of Jarls who are willing to go against the Empire, and believes the majority of jarls keep their loyalty due to monetary interests rather than doing what's right for their people.

Doing what's right meaning being strong... like the Empire is? Because we're back to might makes right here.