About selling your soul

[Samael Morgenst]

From the Fiendish Codex 2, about Faustian Pacts (specifically, Pact Certain)

"Such a contract,
negotiated between a devil and a mortal of any alignment
other than lawful evil, exchanges the mortal’s soul for any
number of possible benefi ts. "

Yes, obviously. A Lawful Evil mortal is already damned, so there's no point in signing a contract with him.
And this means also that no one can sign more than a Pact Certain because " Mortals signing such pacts immediately switch alignment
to lawful evil, even if they have not previously taken any
actions of either a lawful or an evil nature. "

What if a Neutral Evil spellcaster creates eight Simulacrum of himself, conjures and bargains with eight harvester devils, each one serving a different archdevil (so all the archdevils except Asmodeus), and have the Simulacri sign the eight Pact Certain in the same exact instant?
Asmodeous is not included in the fraud, because he's next to omniscent. But the other eight are not.

The simulacra are instructed to bargain for determinate benefits, but to ultimately accept what is offered, and to sign the pact PRECISELY at midnight (so there is no margin of error). They even carry synchronized pocket clocks. Specifically: the REWARD offered by the harvester devils varies, but the cost paid by the signer is always identical (his soul, to be paid once he dies).

None of the eight harvester devil knows about the others. They are summoned in different locations, distant between them and heavily protected against divinations, to minimize the chance of them discovering the fraud.

About signing the contract in blood, each Simulacra is provided with a thin vial of the mortal's blood, hidden in a subdermal pouch in their wrist (preserved from coaugulating with a Gentle Repose spell), so they can dip their steel-capped feather in the blood under the harvester's devils gaze, and sign the contracts in a legally valid way.

[Tzardok]

Surely, if a falxugon can discern wether a mortal is damned or not and so a worthy target for a pact, it can also discern that the simulacrum is soulless, and therefore can't actually sell its (or any other's) soul. They'd smell a rat.

[Samael Morgenst]

A simulacrum, being an extension of his creation, should be able to sign a valid contract.
It's akin to signing using Mage Hand instead that with your physical hand.

The soul being sold is real, the point of the fraud is selling it to more customers in the same instant.

[Tzardok]

A simulacrum, being an extension of his creation, should be able to sign a valid contract.
It's akin to signing using Mage Hand instead that with your physical hand.

The soul being sold is real, the point of the fraud is selling it to more customers in the same instant.

It's not. A simulacrum is an independent creature. Yes, it obeys your commands, but you must actually command it. It is not an extension of yourself, like the mage hand or your actual hand.

Furthermore, you can make a simulacrum of another creature. Imagine what would happen if I made a simulacrum of you, took some of your blood and commanded the simulacrum to offer your soul on your behalf to a fiend (I'd of course command it to claim that it was authorized by you). Should that work? Should I be able to sell other people's soul this way and reap the benefits? Of course not. And that's why only you yourself can sell your soul, and not anything that looks and talks like you, but doesn't actually have your soul.

[Samael Morgenst]

I thought that simulacrum were guided as extensions of your body rather than as obedient constructs or summonings.
Also, I always thought that you can only create a simulacrum of yourself, and that XP cost was a fragment of your soul used to animate it.

[JNAProductions]

I thought that simulacrum were guided as extensions of your body rather than as obedient constructs or summonings.
Also, I always thought that you can only create a simulacrum of yourself, and that XP cost was a fragment of your soul used to animate it.

Not in 3rd.
Possibly in earlier editions-I’m not well versed in them.

[Tzardok]

I think you need to reread the text of the spell. It clearly starts with "Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow."

[Elenian]

Why use simulacra anyway, though? Just hire some ordinary mortal lawyers empowered to negotiate on your behalf, and don't tell any of them about the fraud scheme.

I mean, I assume it's not going to work and you're going to end up in turbo-hell for trying, but maybe the Lords of the Nine will give you points for chutzpah?

[Crake]

I would assume that the contract would go to hell to be notorised and copied in triplicate before you recieve any benefit, and after the second devil returns with a deal for the same soul, shenannigans would be called out.

[Khatoblepas]

"Such a contract,
negotiated between a devil and a mortal of any alignment
other than lawful evil, exchanges the mortal’s soul for any
number of possible benefits. "

A Simulacrum, being of the Construct type, is not a mortal and thus cannot sign a Pact Certain. The closest I can find to a definition of "mortal" is in the Mortal Hunter prestige class:

"mortal" is a term meaning any creature not of the outsider, undead, construct, or fey types.

But that only applies to that prestige class.

Mortals definitely, by FC2, have their souls travel to an afterlife when they die, so they must:
1) Have body/soul duality.
2) be able to die.

Undead and Constructs do not die, they are destroyed. Non-native Outsiders don't have body/soul duality, so their souls go nowhere when destroyed. Fey are generally immortal so they don't have a lifespan.

So I don't think the Pact Certain will even take effect when signed. Nothing will happen. The simulacrum cannot take part in it. The devil might get really angry and destroy the Simulacrum though.

[OracleofWuffing]

I like the implication that Asmodeous is aware of the fraud you're trying to commit, but finds the attempt humorous enough to not interfere.

You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Spot check (opposed by the caster’s Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check.

Not saying there aren't a billion ways to get your Disguise check arbitrarily high, but any devil worth his salt (heh) is going to be familiar with anyone with which he's making deals. That said, support for simultaneous actions is kind of wobbly- you're already relying on fiat with synchronized pocket watches.

If a Simulacrum with a blood pouch (also questionable) counts as a valid signature, there's a further question of if one could use a blood pouch to sign a pact for someone else. The last part of "Negotiating the Deal," states that mortals need to sign the contract with their own blood, so I think the most RAW answer you'll get is that a Simulacrum can't sign a valid Pact with it's caster's blood. The Simulacrum is mortal (decided under a definition that would somehow only benefit the devil, most assuredly), so if it uses any mortal blood other than its own, the contract's invalid. The When, Where, and How the devil would know the contract is invalid is up to the DM, although I'm inclined to suggest that you'll know right away because all benefits will be granted to the Simulacrum what signed the pact... Which has no ability to become more powerful.

From a RAI perspective? Congratulations, you owe your soul to eight conflicting devils to whom you are obligated to equally support, and they know that you tried to cheat the system.

[Crake]

A Simulacrum, being of the Construct type

Simulacrum makes no mention of altering a creature's type.

[EliDupree]

This sounds like a great idea!*

*...for the backstory of a guy whose body and soul have now been torn into eight pieces and each piece mounted at the gate to a different circle of Hell, all individually screaming for eternity, as an example to all those who would try to cheat the devils of their due.

[Khatoblepas]

Simulacrum makes no mention of altering a creature's type.

Hmm, true. I misread some errata. However:

If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness.

It still cannot die.

[Crake]

Hmm, true. I misread some errata. However:



It still cannot die.

True enough, it acts like a construct in many ways.

I'm actually a little confused why they included fey as nonmortals, but DIDN'T include elementals, when fey present much more mortal features than elementals, who share the trait of having a single body/soul unit with outsiders

[Paragon]

My take on Faustian Pacts is that since a contract needs to be signed, it can be tampered. I don't buy the "One product, multiple clients" cheat you showcase but I direct you toward the Forgery skill (which is commonly overlooked in D&D)

Here's an example where I pushed the idea a bit.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...8&postcount=54 under the Notes & Discussions section

Hope this'll help

[Samael Morgenst]

This is from the Fiendish Codex, page 21

Once all possible information has been forcibly extracted
from a captured foe, the devils continue to seek further
advantages. For example, they might offer a captured enemy
a Faustian pact. At fi rst, they merely offer to stop the torture
in exchange for the victim’s soul. Such a pact is not actually
valid, since the terms of the Pact Primeval forbid devils from
coercing mortals into giving up their souls. Thus, an agreement that offers only relief from torture can be successfully
challenged (see Adjudication, page 25). A devil typically
attempts such a bargain anyway, counting on the diffi culty
of lodging appeals to make it stand. If a prisoner resists,
positive rewards are gradually placed on the negotiating
table as well.

So they routinely push for invalid pacts too?
Then they also go around kidnapping people and Dominate them into signing, which is as much invalid?

[atemu1234]

This is from the Fiendish Codex, page 21



So they routinely push for invalid pacts too?
Then they also go around kidnapping people and Dominate them into signing, which is as much invalid?

Maybe not Dominating, because pretty much any rube would call bull about that, but I can fully imagine them Charming their targets into signing. The idea is that the target isn't familiar with the ins and outs of infernal contract law (but hey, it's better than bird law?).

[Curse]

If I were the DM I would look into the precise situation and maybe some of the attempts get through - if Asmodeus is not fooled the Falxugons may well be. Most important would be the question at what point the benefit for the PC takes effect and if it can be revoked once the deal becomes apparent. It could end up in some hilarious shenanigans 😁 (I like to go story before RAW).
If you don't recoil from sexual content maybe check out "Fine Print" by Stjepan Sejic. It deals with the exact situation of one person having a contract with two devils at the same time and there might be some inspiration.

[Samael Morgenst]

Would that Pact Certain proposal be acceptable?


The Soulseller gives: I forfeit any chance of backing down from the contract (by atonement, alignment change or anything else).

The Soulseller asks: If I day for any reason before 50 years from now are expired, you lose my soul. I'm still damned to Hell, but I become property of your master's worst enemy (example: if you work for Mephistopheles , I go to Baalzebul).

[Khatoblepas]

Would that Pact Certain proposal be acceptable?


The Soulseller gives: I forfeit any chance of backing down from the contract (by atonement, alignment change or anything else).

The Soulseller asks: If I day for any reason before 50 years from now are expired, you lose my soul. I'm still damned to Hell, but I become property of your master's worst enemy (example: if you work for Mephistopheles , I go to Baalzebul).

I think a devil would accept these terms. And then they would cast Imprisonment on you and not undo it for fifty years. Remember: devils are immortal, you are not.

[Crake]

I think a devil would accept these terms. And then they would cast Imprisonment on you and not undo it for fifty years. Remember: devils are immortal, you are not.

Most devils dont have access to 9th level spells

Thats also a really bad deal, anything that has “for any reason” with no exception clauses, against the devil’s favour, you can bet they wont be signing off on

ESPECIALLY if its something you have the ability to control, ie: killing yourself in the 49th year

[GeoffWatson]

For the original plan, I'd guess that whichever Devil got the paperwork in first would "win", and the other deals would be cancelled. Or they are all cancelled as Simulacra aren't the "real" character and don't have a soul to sell.

The only reason stupid comic book characters get away with that sort of thing is that there'd be no story if they were stuck in hell.

[Samael Morgenst]

ESPECIALLY if its something you have the ability to control, ie: killing yourself in the 49th year

It is an undesired outcome.
You get nothing from that, you are still damned - just the devil ALSO gets nothing from that because you go to another master.

Also you deprive yourself of the possibility to live more (through natural or magical means).

The idea behind the conditions is:

"If you arrange my death we both lose"

---

But generally speaking, there's a way to not be cheated (by being killed, directly or indirectly) after striking a Pact Certain?
Because, that whole thing "not only you lose your soul but you even get killed ASAP" it's just... not simply unfair, but frustratingly illogical.

[Crake]

The idea behind the conditions is:

"If you arrange my death we both lose"

Its more like “heres a reason for my rivals to hunt you down and kill you” though.

But to quote Crowley from supernatural: “I have one rule: make a deal, keep it. There's a reason we don't call our chips in early: consumer confidence. This isn't Wall Street, this is Hell! We have a little something called integrity. If this gets out, who'll deal with us? Nobody! Then, where are we?“

Devils have no reason to reneg on a deal, they will outlive you, unless you find a way to become immortal, but I’m sure there’s a clause in the contract for that. They have no reason to rush, your soul’s damned either way

[Samael Morgenst]

Its more like “heres a reason for my rivals to hunt you down and kill you” though.

If they know about the contract. Why should they.

But to quote Crowley from supernatural: “I have one rule: make a deal, keep it. There's a reason we don't call our chips in early: consumer confidence. This isn't Wall Street, this is Hell! We have a little something called integrity. If this gets out, who'll deal with us? Nobody! Then, where are we?“

Devils have no reason to reneg on a deal, they will outlive you, unless you find a way to become immortal, but I’m sure there’s a clause in the contract for that. They have no reason to rush, your soul’s damned either way

Yes, that would be the most reasonable approaches, but in Fiendish Codex 2 Tyrants of the Nine Hells, devils are described as bullies that kill the signers as soon as they can to colllect the souls earlier and ensure they don't Atone or similar things.

[Crake]

If they know about the contract. Why should they.

Spies.

Yes, that would be the most reasonable approaches, but in Fiendish Codex 2 Tyrants of the Nine Hells, devils are described as bullies that kill the signers as soon as they can to colllect the souls earlier and ensure they don't Atone or similar things.

If that were the case 99% of contracts would be immediately sign > death, which would make no sense. Its okay to ignore dumb points of lore.

[Samael Morgenst]

If that were the case 99% of contracts would be immediately sign > death, which would make no sense. Its okay to ignore dumb points of lore.

Conceptually I concur.
But I would rather prefer finding a way to conciliate canon publications with basic common sense... if possible.

[Buufreak]

But to quote Crowley from supernatural: “I have one rule: make a deal, keep it. There's a reason we don't call our chips in early: consumer confidence. This isn't Wall Street, this is Hell! We have a little something called integrity. If this gets out, who'll deal with us? Nobody! Then, where are we?“

Bad ole Fergus definitely has the right of it here, and generally whenever something like immortals making pacts comes up, this is what I think of. Integrity. Honoring the exact word and intent of the contract. Signing in blood, sealed with a kiss. And even him breaking out forms and scrolls and going through, line by intricate line, with **** Roman.

See, people keep mentioning that the entity the mortal is making the deal with is quite not mortal, but I feel they are missing an important implication of that. Yes, they will outlive you. They will also outpatient you. They don't have to sign a single thing that isn't in their long term favor. They can just as easily find any other rube on any of many planes that both a) has a soul separate from body and b) can say the word yes.

So yes, you can try to twist it and fenangle the terms however you like to best suit your needs and try to win one over on the immortal hell spawn that has been doing this for centuries beyond how long you've been alive. Equally, said outsider can tell you to stop wasting its time (more of a jab than an actual concern), give you the finger, and then journey off to their next potential client.

Leave it with this thought: do you know the legal addage about what is said when a man represents himself in court?

[Samael Morgenst]

Another idea.

Could the harvester devil be persuaded to add a clause forbidding him or his associates from causing any harm to the client, directly or indirectly?

Offering in exchange to sign an irrevocable contract (one that explicitly over-rules even Atonement), plus other means to assure the client eventual damnation (lifelong service to the harvester's devil archdevil, monthly sentient sacrifices, daily prayers / acts of obeisance, mabye even a Mark of Justice).