OOTS #1299 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Brisket called, and reminds you that you need to learn a bit more about American cuisine.
(Maize/Corn and Hominy being two native agricultural products).

And wings, ribs, pretty much all American barbecue really, fried chicken, gumbo, jumbalaya, eggs benedict, etc. etc.

Of course, Liquor Box continued to express confusing as to why the US jokes about British food even after they were informed at least twice that such jokes are not unique to the US, so I'm not sure what they expect.

[Mordar]

And wings, ribs, pretty much all American barbecue really, fried chicken, gumbo, jumbalaya, eggs benedict, etc. etc.

Of course, Liquor Box continued to express confusing as to why the US jokes about British food even after they were informed at least twice that such jokes are not unique to the US, so I'm not sure what they expect.

I'm guessing we have an especially large collection of signature salads in the offering too that are strongly American. Perception looking for confirmation: salads as full meals = American? I know both the Caesar and Chef are American.

And while mayonnaise is clearly a French concoction, the mass-market version was American, and tied to things like egg salad and tuna salad. Where do those fall in the Worldwide Culinary Identity battle?

- M

[gbaji]

And wings, ribs, pretty much all American barbecue really, fried chicken, gumbo, jumbalaya, eggs benedict, etc. etc.

And cornbread! Seriously. How can something so simple, be so good?

[Tzardok]

I count mayonnaise as French. Something this impossible to spell can't come elsewhere.

[Peelee]

And cornbread! Seriously. How can something so simple, be so good?

Imean, the list was starting to look heavily southern-slanted, so I didn't want to monopolize. Besides, now I want chicken-friend streak with biscuits and gravy, and an Arnold Palmer.

I count mayonnaise as French. Something this impossible to spell can't come elsewhere.

IIRC mayonnaise is a French mother sauce, and I think it is the height of American arrogance (in the best, funniest way) to reduce that to a base condiment.

[gbaji]

I count mayonnaise as French. Something this impossible to spell can't come elsewhere.

It's a sub-sauce under one of the 5 mother sauces of French cuisine, so yeah. Pretty much anything with the ending "aise" is some form of egg based sauce.

I will point out that while we Americans use it to make all sorts of salad type things (potato, macaroni, egg, tuna), and as a spread for sandwiches, and often as a base for other things (dips and spreads of all kinds), other places actually use it as a dipping sauce. Like... just straight up.

Imean, the list was starting to look heavily southern-slanted, so I didn't want to monopolize. Besides, now I want chicken-friend streak with biscuits and gravy, and an Arnold Palmer.

Funny story. A former co-worker of mine was on a business trip somewhere in the south. He was in a diner and ordered... something (don't remember what it was), and asked the waitress if he could get gravy on it. The response:

[southern accent]Honey. That's how it comes.[/southern accent]

So yeah. I give credit to some of the northern and midwestern areas for various (and often quite inventive!) salads and baked stuff, but the south just has the right attitude when it comes to unappologetically "yummy" food.

[Tzardok]

It's a sub-sauce under one of the 5 mother sauces of French cuisine, so yeah. Pretty much anything with the ending "aise" is some form of egg based sauce.

I will point out that while we Americans use it to make all sorts of salad type things (potato, macaroni, egg, tuna), and as a spread for sandwiches, and often as a base for other things (dips and spreads of all kinds), other places actually use it as a dipping sauce. Like... just straight up.

Yup. Like pretty much everyone in my family except for me. I can't stand it. In practically any form.

[Quizatzhaderac]

If you won't decline, will you at least conjugate?

Sir!

A gentleman never offers to conjugate without the option to decline!

[Mordar]

I count mayonnaise as French. Something this impossible to spell can't come elsewhere.

It's a sub-sauce under one of the 5 mother sauces of French cuisine, so yeah. Pretty much anything with the ending "aise" is some form of egg based sauce.

I will point out that while we Americans use it to make all sorts of salad type things (potato, macaroni, egg, tuna), and as a spread for sandwiches, and often as a base for other things (dips and spreads of all kinds), other places actually use it as a dipping sauce. Like... just straight up.

So yeah. I give credit to some of the northern and midwestern areas for various (and often quite inventive!) salads and baked stuff, but the south just has the right attitude when it comes to unappologetically "yummy" food.

Didn't I say both of those things in the post wherein mayonnaise was first mentioned?!?

To complement the wings as non-Southern food on the list, I submit Tater Tot Hotdish, Bundt Cake and Jell-O. And that most wonderful of all foods ever, soft-serve ice cream.

- M

[Tzardok]

Didn't I say both of those things in the post wherein mayonnaise was first mentioned?!?

You asked where it fell "in the Worldwide Culinary Identity battle". So I answered: French, not American.

[Mordar]

You asked where it fell "in the Worldwide Culinary Identity battle". So I answered: French, not American.

Ah, I understand - look again below, my underline and bolding added:

I'm guessing we have an especially large collection of signature salads in the offering too that are strongly American. Perception looking for confirmation: salads as full meals = American? I know both the Caesar and Chef are American.

And while mayonnaise is clearly a French concoction, the mass-market version was American, and tied to things like egg salad and tuna salad. Where do those fall in the Worldwide Culinary Identity battle?

- M

The question posed was (intended to be) "Where do egg salad and tuna salad fall in the Worldwide Culinary Identity battle?"

- M

[Peelee]

It's a sub-sauce under one of the 5 mother sauces of French cuisine, so yeah.

Minor quibble: it is straight up a mother sauce, not a sub-sauce under another. An English translation of a French book replaced it with hollandaise, which is very similar regardless (temperature and butter being the biggest differences, as both are egg emulsion-based), but yeah, I take all six as mother sauces.

Funny story. A former co-worker of mine was on a business trip somewhere in the south. He was in a diner and ordered... something (don't remember what it was), and asked the waitress if he could get gravy on it. The response:

[southern accent]Honey. That's how it comes.[/southern accent]

Five bucks that it was chicken-fried steak or chicken-fried chicken (the lesser dish of the two, but with an objectively superior name). There are some places which call them "country-fried" instead of "chicken-fried". Those places are wrong. Could be something different, but those are the most common food to have sausage gravy standard except for biscuits and gravy, and, well, I don't think he would have needed to ask for that one.

So yeah. I give credit to some of the northern and midwestern areas for various (and often quite inventive!) salads and baked stuff, but the south just has the right attitude when it comes to unappologetically "yummy" food.

Truly we are a wondrous people.

Sir!

A gentleman never offers to conjugate without the option to decline!

Spoiler

Show

The question posed was (intended to be) "Where do egg salad and tuna salad fall in the Worldwide Culinary Identity battle?"

- M

American. If a component being from somewhere else made it that nationality's, all chicken dishes would be Chinese, all tomato dishes would be Peruvian, etc etc.

[Doug Lampert]

Minor quibble: it is straight up a mother sauce, not a sub-sauce under another. An English translation of a French book replaced it with hollandaise, which is very similar regardless (temperature and butter being the biggest differences, as both are egg emulsion-based), but yeah, I take all six as mother sauces.

Five bucks that it was chicken-fried steak or chicken-fried chicken (the lesser dish of the two, but with an objectively superior name). There are some places which call them "country-fried" instead of "chicken-fried". Those places are wrong. Could be something different, but those are the most common food to have sausage gravy standard except for biscuits and gravy, and, well, I don't think he would have needed to ask for that one.

Truly we are a wondrous people.

Spoiler

Show

American. If a component being from somewhere else made it that nationality's, all chicken dishes would be Chinese, all tomato dishes would be Peruvian, etc etc.

https://www.science.org/content/arti...became-chicken
Chicken appears to be Thai, as are many good foods.

[Tzardok]

Five bucks that it was chicken-fried steak or chicken-fried chicken (the lesser dish of the two, but with an objectively superior name). There are some places which call them "country-fried" instead of "chicken-fried". Those places are wrong.

You mean to tell me a chicken fried this steak?

Ah, I understand - look again below, my underline and bolding added:



The question posed was (intended to be) "Where do egg salad and tuna salad fall in the Worldwide Culinary Identity battle?"

- M

Ah, I see. Well, potato salad at least is quintessentially German in my mind, and though I never really thought about it, I did put egg salad and noodle salad and stuff into the same general category.

[Mordar]

Five bucks that it was chicken-fried steak or chicken-fried chicken (the lesser dish of the two, but with an objectively superior name). There are some places which call them "country-fried" instead of "chicken-fried". Those places are wrong. Could be something different, but those are the most common food to have sausage gravy standard except for biscuits and gravy, and, well, I don't think he would have needed to ask for that one.

Pork cutlet, maybe? 'Cause CFS always has gravy, doesn't it, and everyone should know that.

American. If a component being from somewhere else made it that nationality's, all chicken dishes would be Chinese, all tomato dishes would be Peruvian, etc etc.

Granted, but with it being such a defining ingredient...you know, half or 1/3 the list at the base...I thought it merited special consideration.

But if we're all in agreement that salad as meal, and salads that mostly go on sandwiches are American, I am sated.

- M

[Doug Lampert]

Pork cutlet, maybe? 'Cause CFS always has gravy, doesn't it, and everyone should know that.

I've seen someone order CFS without gravy because the resteraunt was white gravy and they thought anything but brown was incorrect (or maybe it was vice versa, order was without because he thought one gravy was wrong and worse then none).

Point being that you CAN get CFS without gravy.

Similarly, on the buffet they may have it without gravy so you can choose which kind to add.

[Wintermoot]

.... McDonald's "fully loaded" Coke...

- M

What is this? I have never heard of this and the intarwebs fail me.

[Mordar]

Point being that you CAN get CFS without gravy.

Similarly, on the buffet they may have it without gravy so you can choose which kind to add.

Well, sure...and you can get a Chicago Dog with ketchup too. If you're willing to receive deserved lashings.

The buffet thing makes good sense though...don't want the CFS to get soggy before you get to eat it!

What is this? I have never heard of this and the intarwebs fail me.

Sorry, use that to refer to regular (not diet or "Zero", and otherwise unflavored) Coke.

McDonald's is known as being perhaps the pinnacle of fountain drink soda sources - the water filtration system, the specially selected syrup to water ratio, the amount of ice dispensed (if you get drive-through service), the bore of the straws...all of them calibrated and specifically intended to give you the best, most perfectly replicated soda experience. Even the mix water temperature is controlled. In short, they set the standard for restaurant soda, and as a Coke-affiliated vendor, the standard for Coke that isn't in a bottle or aluminum can.

Now if only they could keep the #$%^ ice cream machines in service the whole time they are open...

- M

[Doug Lampert]

Well, sure...and you can get a Chicago Dog with ketchup too. If you're willing to receive deserved lashings.

No need for lashing. Ketchup on a hotdog or sausage carries its own punishment, you have ketchup on your hotdog after all....

[Peelee]

https://www.science.org/content/arti...became-chicken
Chicken appears to be Thai, as are many good foods.

Southeast Asia generally, including southern China. But yeah, I was ballparking.

Pork cutlet, maybe? 'Cause CFS always has gravy, doesn't it, and everyone should know that.

Everyone in the South does, sure, but your co-worker may not have.

Granted, but with it being such a defining ingredient...you know, half or 1/3 the list at the base...I thought it merited special consideration.

Chicken is arguably the most defining ingredient in fried chicken.

Well, sure...and you can get a Chicago Dog with ketchup too. If you're willing to receive deserved lashings.

Well, I figured that lashings go hand-in-hand for anyone who orders a Chicago Dog.
Also, capital punishment for any who think the Francheezie deserves anything other than destruction.

[Mordar]

Chicken is arguably the most defining ingredient in fried chicken.

This was about tuna salad and egg salad, silly. Not chicken. *That* was the gravy conversation.

Well, I figured that lashings go hand-in-hand for anyone who orders a Chicago Dog.
Also, capital punishment for any who think the Francheezie deserves anything other than destruction.

(a) No, Chicago dogs are 3rd best hot dog styles going...and excellent at Wrigley, and many other places in Chicago;
(a2) ...even if neon green sweet pickle relish is kind of ooky;
(b) Cheese, however, does not belong in a hot dog;
(b2) No, not even on chili dogs because despite those being three things I like, I do not like them together.

- M

[Peelee]

This was about tuna salad and egg salad, silly. Not chicken. *That* was the gravy conversation.

I know, I was using a different dish to make a point. I think I'm samrt.

(a) No, Chicago dogs are 3rd best hot dog styles going

I can agree to that. The first being Hebrew National hot dogs, and the second being "literally every other hot dog style that exists except Chicago".

[Mordar]

I know, I was using a different dish to make a point. I think I'm samrt.

I can agree to that. The first being Hebrew National hot dogs, and the second being "literally every other hot dog style that exists except Chicago".

Well, your second line confirms your first. You are clearly, as Homer J. likes to say, SMRT.

Sonoran Dog #1.
California Dog #2 (the bacon/peppers/onions version, not the stupid one with avocado)
Chicago Dog #3

A good natural casing dog on a soft bun with brown, onions and kraut is always good in my book too, and can replace any level of regional dog in a pinch.

Sadly my last NYC trip featured like 4 substandard dogs, so they are on temporary double-secret probation. So disappointing.

- M

[Ruck]

Yeah, but I think it's a bit different with the US. Germany has a wide range of national foods that are quite unique, and it seems natural to me for Germans to prefer those things to those uniquely English foods. USA, being a young country, doesn't really have that in the same way.

Barbecue, Cajun and Creole, Tex-Mex, soul food...

(Let alone the different styles of barbecue. Texas? Carolina? Kansas City? Memphis? Alabama?)

They're not really national cuisines-- America is such a cultural stew that I don't even know what would count as a national cuisine. Hamburgers and hot dogs?-- but they are American originals.

Speaking of hot dogs, what's on a Chicago dog again? Mustard and sauerkraut? Or am I thinking of something else?

[Peelee]

Well, your second line confirms your first. You are clearly, as Homer J. likes to say, SMRT.

Sonoran Dog #1.
California Dog #2 (the bacon/peppers/onions version, not the stupid one with avocado)
Chicago Dog #3

A good natural casing dog on a soft bun with brown, onions and kraut is always good in my book too, and can replace any level of regional dog in a pinch.

Sadly my last NYC trip featured like 4 substandard dogs, so they are on temporary double-secret probation. So disappointing.

- M

As a wise man once said, there are only three acceptable condiments for a hot dog - mustard, onion, and stagnant cart water.

Speaking of hot dogs, what's on a Chicago dog again? Mustard and sauerkraut? Or am I thinking of something else?

Yellow mustard (Chicago seems allergic to good mustards), a full pickle wedge, tomato, it's just a mess of being different just to be different.

[Mordar]

Barbecue, Cajun and Creole, Tex-Mex, soul food...

(Let alone the different styles of barbecue. Texas? Carolina? Kansas City? Memphis? Alabama?)

They're not really national cuisines-- America is such a cultural stew that I don't even know what would count as a national cuisine. Hamburgers and hot dogs?-- but they are American originals.

Speaking of hot dogs, what's on a Chicago dog again? Mustard and sauerkraut? Or am I thinking of something else?

Chicago = Poppyseed bun, yellow, sweet relish, raw onion, pickle (dill), pepper, tomato slices, celery salt.

Mustard (yellow or brown) and kraut is a pretty common baseline.

I think maybe "cookout" = national cuisine?

As a wise man once said, there are only three acceptable condiments for a hot dog - mustard, onion, and stagnant cart water.


Yellow mustard (Chicago seems allergic to good mustards), a full pickle wedge, tomato, it's just a mess of being different just to be different.

See, maybe this is the problem. You subscribe to Jon Stewart, a total homer, and you forgot half of the ingredients and the bun.

He's wrong about pizza, too. Because there are only 2 kinds of pizza - the good kind, and the kind with fish.

- M

[Ruck]

As a wise man once said, there are only three acceptable condiments for a hot dog - mustard, onion, and stagnant cart water.


Yellow mustard (Chicago seems allergic to good mustards), a full pickle wedge, tomato, it's just a mess of being different just to be different.

Chicago = Poppyseed bun, yellow, sweet relish, raw onion, pickle (dill), pepper, tomato slices, celery salt.

Mustard (yellow or brown) and kraut is a pretty common baseline.

I think maybe "cookout" = national cuisine?

Oh, okay. That's too much stuff. Mustard and onions is good. I like sauerkraut, too, but it's better on a bratwurst or other sausage.

(in any case, keep that tomato simple syrup that people call "ketchup" away from me.)

[gerryq]

That's not a good name, though. Calling someone a freak of nature "because that's their creature type" really sounds like a slur. That sounds like calling someone different a Primate, which is technically correct (we all are members of the Primate family), but has unfortunate undertones.

I guess it depends on your sensitivity, but I think "you minion" would actually be less demeaning.

I agree with this. I think if Rich were writing for WotC and could use the B-word if he wanted, he would likely still have Calder say "aberration" here. [If he thought of it, obviously - it wouldn't have sprung so quickly to mind in those circumstances.]

[Kish]

Mustard is ungood. Onions are ungood. Ketchup is also ungood.

Cheese is good.

[brian 333]

Full disclosure: I have been poor enough to have hot-dog spaghetti with poke salad, and I was thankful there was enough for everyone.

That said, I cannot understand why anyone can claim to 'like' them as other than convenience food or as hardship rations. Random animal bits processed into a paste then squirted into a tube, soaked in warm brine untill the gelatin activated then suspended in a vape chamber. These flavorless constructs are then stripped from their tubes and packed into shrink wrap and chilled, in quantities which invariably outnumber the nearest package size of buns which are expressly made for them.

Get yourself some country smoked sausage, or some brats, or even that store-made onion sausage. Eat something with flavor. Hot dogs are just bland, greasy boiled meat product useful only for holding condiments. You'd be better off just squirting mustard into your mouth and eating onions.