OOTS #1299 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

You subscribe to Jon Stewart, a total homer

Yes, i agree, he is indeed comparable to a legendary orator!

And to paraphrase something from him, you know why Chicago style hot dogs aren't hot dogs? You know what they call New York style hot dogs? "Hot dogs".

My dad may have been from Brooklyn but cmon, even without that, Chicago style anything only exists in Chicago. And frankly i have no problem with that. Keep it quarantined. Sound strategy!

[Mordar]

Full disclosure: I have been poor enough to have hot-dog spaghetti with poke salad, and I was thankful there was enough for everyone.

That said, I cannot understand why anyone can claim to 'like' them as other than convenience food or as hardship rations. Random animal bits processed into a paste then squirted into a tube, soaked in warm brine untill the gelatin activated then suspended in a vape chamber. These flavorless constructs are then stripped from their tubes and packed into shrink wrap and chilled, in quantities which invariably outnumber the nearest package size of buns which are expressly made for them.

Get yourself some country smoked sausage, or some brats, or even that store-made onion sausage. Eat something with flavor. Hot dogs are just bland, greasy boiled meat product useful only for holding condiments. You'd be better off just squirting mustard into your mouth and eating onions.

There really are several varieties of hot dogs, with notably different flavors. Sure, the most economical of hot dogs are flavorless paste...but there are so many better options. Of course brats are wonderful too, as are a huge array of other Polish and German meat-casing treats that are things I will eat all day long. But that doesn't mean that Nathan's, Hebrew National and several local butcher shop hotdogs are as good as many off-the-shelf brats.

Plus the good varieties that are prepackaged generally have *fewer* dogs than the standard 8-pack of buns.

Should we do Spam next?

- M

[Peelee]

Full disclosure: I have been poor enough to have hot-dog spaghetti with poke salad, and I was thankful there was enough for everyone.

That said, I cannot understand why anyone can claim to 'like' them as other than convenience food or as hardship rations. Random animal bits processed into a paste then squirted into a tube, soaked in warm brine untill the gelatin activated then suspended in a vape chamber. These flavorless constructs are then stripped from their tubes and packed into shrink wrap and chilled, in quantities which invariably outnumber the nearest package size of buns which are expressly made for them.

Get yourself some country smoked sausage, or some brats, or even that store-made onion sausage. Eat something with flavor. Hot dogs are just bland, greasy boiled meat product useful only for holding condiments. You'd be better off just squirting mustard into your mouth and eating onions.

My friend, let me tell you this: Jim Sinegal did not tell the CEO of Costco "If you raise the [price of the] ****ing hot dog, I will kill you. Figure it out." for me to not eat them. I will honor that man with my buck fifty every chance i get. And it will be delicious.

Should we do Spam next?

- M

Spam is perfectly good meat and deserves more honor than people give it.

[Liquor Box]

Brisket called, and reminds you that you need to learn a bit more about American cuisine.
(Maize/Corn and Hominy being two native agricultural products).

Brisket is a traditional English dish, in addition to American.

Corn is American (as in the continent, not the state). I suppose you could claim it as a US food, in the same way England could claim any plants that are native to it as well as the rest of continental Europe.

Of course, Liquor Box continued to express confusing as to why the US jokes about British food even after they were informed at least twice that such jokes are not unique to the US, so I'm not sure what they expect.

I'm not confused. I thought Gbaji's thoughts were on point and a good explanation. He said people from the US don't associate British adaptions of other country's cuisines (like curries) as being British (even though people from the US do think of their own adaptions as being from the US). It seems that Americans also don't associate foods like apple pie or bacon and eggs for breakfast as being English (but will claim things like fried chicken, burgers, hot dogs or bbq for itself, despite those being eaten almost everywhere).

That's a good enough explanation for me.

[Peelee]

I'm not confused. I thought Gbaji's thoughts were on point and a good explanation. He said people from the US don't associate British adaptions of other country's cuisines (like curries) as being British (even though people from the US do think of their own adaptions as being from the US). It seems that Americans also don't associate foods like apple pie or bacon and eggs for breakfast as being English (but will claim things like fried chicken, burgers, hot dogs or bbq for itself, despite those being eaten almost everywhere).

That's a good enough explanation for me.

A.) I said you seem confused as to why Americans joke that British food is subpar, despite being told twice that it is not a uniquely American joke. This has nothing to do with American associations of British adaptations on cuisine. This has to do with "this joke is not uniquely American despite your continued belief that it is". You still seem uncertain on this point.

2.) Fried chicken is an American dish. American bbq, unsurprisingly, originated in America. Every example i gave is an American dish. Claiming that fried chicken exists in many cultures is technically true, in much the same sense that cooking meat in general occurs in many cultures. You're ignoring how the food is prepared and cooked and then conflating it all as the same thing. This is, quite simply, not how regional culinary tradition works. By such reasoning, American pulled pork and korean bulgogi is the same dish.

You quoted me but did not seem to reply to anything i said. If that quote was in error, and my re-explaining my prior points in more detail was unneeded due to that mistake, i apologize in advance.

[Doug Lampert]

Full disclosure: I have been poor enough to have hot-dog spaghetti with poke salad, and I was thankful there was enough for everyone.

That said, I cannot understand why anyone can claim to 'like' them as other than convenience food or as hardship rations. Random animal bits processed into a paste then squirted into a tube, soaked in warm brine untill the gelatin activated then suspended in a vape chamber. These flavorless constructs are then stripped from their tubes and packed into shrink wrap and chilled, in quantities which invariably outnumber the nearest package size of buns which are expressly made for them.

Get yourself some country smoked sausage, or some brats, or even that store-made onion sausage. Eat something with flavor. Hot dogs are just bland, greasy boiled meat product useful only for holding condiments. You'd be better off just squirting mustard into your mouth and eating onions.

Depends somewhat on the hotdog, Hebrew National or Nathans can be quite good, they're basically 100% beef sausage, you can put on mustard and onions for flavor and it goes well with the seared dog after you grill it (you did grill it rather than boiling I trust). You can also use sweet relish or other ingredients if you feel like it.

The bun thing is annoying, but it applies to almost any sausage in a bun type food, and I've gotten Nathans at the same number per package as the buns on occassion.

[Ruck]

100% beef dogs are fine. Sausages are better. Fortunately for me, I live close to an excellent meat market.

[Peelee]

Fortunately for me, I live close to an excellent meat market.

Please stop calling my house that.

[Ruck]

Please stop calling my house that.

I feel like all the jokes I can come up with in response to this would get auto-deleted.

[Peelee]

I feel like all the jokes I can come up with in response to this would get auto-deleted.

Spoiler: The trick is to make yourself the butt of the joke

Show

[Liquor Box]

A.) I said you seem confused as to why Americans joke that British food is subpar, despite being told twice that it is not a uniquely American joke. This has nothing to do with American associations of British adaptations on cuisine. This has to do with "this joke is not uniquely American despite your continued belief that it is". You still seem uncertain on this point.

Nope I'm pretty clear on it, it's as a i said above.

Where did I say the 'joke' is uniquely american? I just find it a bit more strange coming from US people than Europeans, given how similar American and English diets are.

2.) Fried chicken is an American dish. American bbq, unsurprisingly, originated in America. Every example i gave is an American dish. Claiming that fried chicken exists in many cultures is technically true, in much the same sense that cooking meat in general occurs in many cultures. You're ignoring how the food is prepared and cooked and then conflating it all as the same thing. This is, quite simply, not how regional culinary tradition works. By such reasoning, American pulled pork and korean bulgogi is the same dish.

You quoted me but did not seem to reply to anything i said. If that quote was in error, and my re-explaining my prior points in more detail was unneeded due to that mistake, i apologize in advance.

Yes, that's what I said. Fried chickrn and american bbq are american dishes in the same way as apple pie and British bbq (amongst various other things) are British dishes. Do we agree about that?

[brian 333]

My friend, let me tell you this: Jim Sinegal did not tell the CEO of Costco "If you raise the [price of the] ****ing hot dog, I will kill you. Figure it out." for me to not eat them. I will honor that man with my buck fifty every chance i get. And it will be delicious.

Spam is perfectly good meat and deserves more honor than people give it.

You are free to eat them all you like. I will never understand why people 'like' them. Sure, food that is available, cheap, easy to fix, and portable. If you are hungry and don't have a table, they are darned convenient.

I even have a fond memory of working on a house by City Park in New Orleans with two friends. While two of us stayed and kept working, one went to the store with all the money we could pool up. He bought a loaf of white bread, a pack of hot dogs, a bag of plain potato chips, and a pack of cigarettes. (I don't smoke.)
We climbed into an ancient oak tree and ate potato chip and hot dog sandwiches. Afterward, they had a smoke. Good times, waiting on payday.

But 'like' them? Okay, if you say so.

Spam, on the other hand, is a very versatile meat product once you realize it can be so much more than pan-fried. And it's historic.

I heard they asked Winston Churchill what was the most important thing in WW2, and he said, "Landing craft that opened up the beaches for invasion." They asked Eisenhower and he said, "Jeeps that gave our troops the mobility to avoid trench warfare." They asked Stalin and he said, "Spam so the troops didn't die from eating rotten and wormy meat."

Also, I grew up believing SPAM meant SPiced hAM. Later I was informed this is not true. Anyone know the truth?

[Ruck]

Also, I grew up believing SPAM meant SPiced hAM. Later I was informed this is not true. Anyone know the truth?

Not beyond what's on the Wikipedia page.

Your story did remind me that some time ago a chef in Houston put together a menu of some MRE-inspired dishes. I know Spam was in one of them; I'm trying to remember if the dish I'm thinking of was Spam and ramen or hot dogs and ramen.

[KorvinStarmast]

And wings, ribs, pretty much all American barbecue really, fried chicken, gumbo, jumbalaya, eggs benedict, etc. etc.

Yes.

And cornbread! Seriously. How can something so simple, be so good?

Either plain or as I fix it, with added jalapeños and cheese.

I count mayonnaise as French. Something this impossible to spell can't come elsewhere.

Fair enough. But I consider the Belgian iteration the best as they serve it with Frites.

https://www.science.org/content/arti...became-chicken
Chicken appears to be Thai, as are many good foods.

Thai = Good Foods. yes.

You mean to tell me a chicken fried this steak?

Yes. Yes it did.

Ah, I see. Well, potato salad at least is quintessentially German in my mind

Oh yes, and it needs to be served warm.

Point being that you CAN get CFS without gravy.

If one is a masochist, yes.

Oh, okay. That's too much stuff. Mustard and onions is good. I like sauerkraut, too, but it's better on a bratwurst or other sausage.

Hot dog with, mustard, kraut, onions. (Maybe add relish, maybe not). With a beer. That's food.

My friend, let me tell you this: Jim Sinegal did not tell the CEO of Costco "If you raise the [price of the] ****ing hot dog, I will kill you. Figure it out." for me to not eat them. I will honor that man with my buck fifty every chance i get. And it will be delicious.

Yep.

As for brisket being English: you don't know how to cook it. If you want brisket, you come on down to Texas and learn what brisket is. (Heck, Franklin's has classes teaching people how to do it ...)
As an aside: the abomination you all created with corned beef needs to be brought before the Hague on serious criminal charges.
At least the Jewish/Yiddish deli folk know what to do with that: pastrami.
(Pastrami appears to be Romanian in origin, though beef based pastrami may be New Yorker in origin).

Spoiler: from goose to beef

Show

Pastrami was introduced to the United States in a wave of Jewish immigration from Bessarabia and Romania in the second half of the 19th century. The modified "pastrami" spelling was probably introduced in imitation of the American English salami. Romanian Jews emigrated to New York as early as 1872. Among Jewish Romanians, goose breasts were commonly made into pastrami because they were available. Beef navel was cheaper than goose meat in America, so the Romanian Jews in America adapted their recipe and began to make the cheaper-alternative beef pastrami.

New York's Sussman Volk is generally credited with producing the first pastrami sandwich in the United States in 1887. Volk was a kosher butcher and New York immigrant from Lithuania. According to his descendant Patricia Volk, he prepared pastrami according to the recipe of a Romanian friend and served it on sandwiches out of his butcher shop. The sandwich was so popular that Volk converted the butcher shop into a restaurant to sell pastrami sandwiches.

[Provengreil]

Spam, on the other hand, is a very versatile meat product once you realize it can be so much more than pan-fried. And it's historic.

I'm partial to Musubi, myself.

For those not in the know, picture a large nigiri sushi but with spam instead of fish. It's better than you'd expect.

[danielxcutter]

Never had that specifically, but can confirm, spam + rice = good

[bunsen_h]

That said, I cannot understand why anyone can claim to 'like' them as other than convenience food or as hardship rations. Random animal bits processed into a paste then squirted into a tube, soaked in warm brine untill the gelatin activated then suspended in a vape chamber. These flavorless constructs are then stripped from their tubes and packed into shrink wrap and chilled, in quantities which invariably outnumber the nearest package size of buns which are expressly made for them.

I recently read Charles Stross's novel Quantum of Nightmares. It significantly involves a device referred to as a "meat printer", whose input is a variety of byproduct slurries. The situation is actually rather worse than might be inferred from just that description.

[Peelee]

Where did I say the 'joke' is uniquely american?

As someone from neither USA or UK, I always find this US idea that food in the UK is bad, bland or boring a bit strange.

You specifically call it a "US idea".

Yes, that's what I said.

That is not what you said. This is what you said:

It seems that Americans.... claim things like fried chicken, burgers, hot dogs or bbq for itself, despite those being eaten almost everywhere

That is not saying "These things are American." That is saying "These things are not American because they are eaten almost everywhere".

Nope I'm pretty clear on it

I do agree that you have been very clear, but not in the way you seem to think.

Fried chickrn and american bbq are american dishes in the same way as apple pie and British bbq (amongst various other things) are British dishes. Do we agree about that?

Again, did you mean to reply to someone else here? I have never claimed that British foods aren't British. And, conveniently, I do not have other posts in this very thread which directly contradict that statement. Who are you talking to here? What are you trying to argue? Because if you are intending this for me, then it's a pretty big non-sequitor, since I've never opposed it.

[Mordar]

Yes, i agree, he is indeed comparable to a legendary orator!

And to paraphrase something from him, you know why Chicago style hot dogs aren't hot dogs? You know what they call New York style hot dogs? "Hot dogs".

My dad may have been from Brooklyn but cmon, even without that, Chicago style anything only exists in Chicago. And frankly i have no problem with that. Keep it quarantined. Sound strategy!

You mean insofar as he was a male human? Yes, that is true. Also that there is reasonable evidence he misled/misleads the youth for his own gain? Yes, that is also true.

There isn't a New York style hot dog because hot dogs there have no style. Like far too much about New York, all rep, no substance.

My friend, let me tell you this: Jim Sinegal did not tell the CEO of Costco "If you raise the [price of the] ****ing hot dog, I will kill you. Figure it out." for me to not eat them. I will honor that man with my buck fifty every chance i get. And it will be delicious.

Spam is perfectly good meat and deserves more honor than people give it.

I come from extremely close to the one and only home of Spam. I have eaten it most of my life and will continue to find it an enjoyable treat. No surprise to me that despite not liking fish much, I am extremely fond of Hawaiian food. Because they know!

But 'like' them? Okay, if you say so.

Spam, on the other hand, is a very versatile meat product once you realize it can be so much more than pan-fried. And it's historic.

I heard they asked Winston Churchill what was the most important thing in WW2, and he said, "Landing craft that opened up the beaches for invasion." They asked Eisenhower and he said, "Jeeps that gave our troops the mobility to avoid trench warfare." They asked Stalin and he said, "Spam so the troops didn't die from eating rotten and wormy meat."

Also, I grew up believing SPAM meant SPiced hAM. Later I was informed this is not true. Anyone know the truth?

That's pretty much the line the Spam Museum goes with too. Talk about an insider advantage...brother of a Hormel VP "wins" the "contest" to name the product and gets $100. And he was from New York. See, more underserved accolades.

Wonderful dishes with eggs, with rice, with pasta, with macaroni and cheese and green chiles (and even with just the Kraft box, but keep your stupid Velveeta away).

- M

[gbaji]

Ah, I see. Well, potato salad at least is quintessentially German in my mind

Oh yes, and it needs to be served warm.

Does "left out on a picnic table on a hot summer day" count?

Hot dog with, mustard, kraut, onions. (Maybe add relish, maybe not). With a beer. That's food.

When it comes to hot dogs, it's kinda about what mood I'm in. As a general rule though, simple is better. It's kinda the point of the thing. If I'm just really lazy at home, I've been known to just toss a couple hotdogs on a grillplate, place on buns and add mustard, relish, and onions. Perfectly acceptable lunch IMO.

If I'm bothering with anything more (especially if I'm going kraut), I'm going to buy actual brats/sausages of some kind, and nicer rolls, and really commit to it. But that's pretty rare. If I'm going to that effort, I'm probably grilling/bbqing, and there will be steak (and other meats), and sides, and whatnot. So hotdogs are in this odd in-between area where I'm just not likely to go beyond "a basic hotdog" if I'm making them myself. Honestly? On grill days, hot dogs are pretty much what we make for the kids to eat (kids are weird, and will eat hot dogs despite there being ribeye... like... right there). Which works out fine, as far as I'm cocerned.

Now, if I find myself wandering about during some festival in say October (or early September maybe), and there's a vendor selling fancy kraut laden dogs? Yeah... I'll go for that. And a beer.

[Mordar]

Ah, I see. Well, potato salad at least is quintessentially German in my mind, and though I never really thought about it, I did put egg salad and noodle salad and stuff into the same general category.

I like that vegetable side dish too - but it seems much less a salad and more a potato side dish, and noticeably lacks the mayo component. Ask a hundred people where I live what potato salad looks like and how it is served, guessing at least 99 go the picnic/mayo/cold variation. Ask the same question at my favorite restaurant (or in Germany) and it flips the other way. Seems that kind of supports the idea of it as American.

What kind of noodle salad do you mean? Like pasta (rotini is best) in a vinegar base with olives and such, or maybe the mayo and tuna kind? Or something with long noodles?

- M

[Tzardok]

I have never said that I liked potato salad. As I mentioned, I dislike stuff with mayo in it.

But I have never heard of warm potato salad. My family always insisted on cooled or at least room temperature.

[gbaji]

Meant to reply to this yesterday, before we went off on a hotdog tangent, so...

Minor quibble: it is straight up a mother sauce, not a sub-sauce under another. An English translation of a French book replaced it with hollandaise, which is very similar regardless (temperature and butter being the biggest differences, as both are egg emulsion-based), but yeah, I take all six as mother sauces.

Yeah. I tend to agree. But every single culinary site on the interwebs labels it differently. Which is why I tend to go with the broader "-aise sauces", and not worry about which particular one is the "mother sauce". At the end of the day, they're all identifiable in that category anyway. I mean, eggs and fat, with acid to make an emulsion. Simple enough (well, on paper anyway).

Five bucks that it was chicken-fried steak or chicken-fried chicken (the lesser dish of the two, but with an objectively superior name). There are some places which call them "country-fried" instead of "chicken-fried". Those places are wrong. Could be something different, but those are the most common food to have sausage gravy standard except for biscuits and gravy, and, well, I don't think he would have needed to ask for that one.

Probably what it was. Does make the most sense. I just always found the story amusing, in a regionally relevant "why on earth would you not put gravy on it?" kind of way.

I have never said that I liked potato salad. As I mentioned, I dislike stuff with mayo in it.

But I have heard of warm potato salad. My family always insisted on cooled or at least room temperature.

There are variations of potato salad that use mustard instead of mayo (or are quite light on it). And yeah... Warm variations of such.

Heck. I was watching Ina Garten's show some time ago. Now, normally I don't bother trying most things she does. She apparently has the spare time/money to do somewhat aburd and over the top things. But, every once in a while she'll showcase a dish that is super simple, using "normal" ingredients, and "normal" cooking vessels/tools, but that are really good. One of them was a simple potato dish that was basically just petite potatoes, sliced onions, country dijon mustard (with seeds), oil/salt/pepper, roasted on a sheet, and then some herbs added at the end.

It can absolutely be served hot or cold. And I use it as an alternative to a potato salad when I know there are people who are not fans of mayo. It's a very different flavor, but OMG is it good.

[Elkad]

Hotdogs are good with almost any condiment, the exceptions being mayo or ketchup.

mustard, onions, relish, chili, chili w/beans, cheese, banana peppers, jalepenos, etc.. Somewhere in the south I once got a dog that had crushed up saltine crackers on top.
Any of those in any combination is good.

However, EVERY dog should be on a English-style bun, properly grilled.

I have never said that I liked potato salad. As I mentioned, I dislike stuff with mayo in it.

But I have heard of warm potato salad. My family always insisted on cooled or at least room temperature.

The trick to potato salad. In goes the egg, mustard, celery seed, sweet relish, dill pickle juice, horseradish, pepper, etc. Stir. Only after that, if it doesn't stick together, do you add the smallest amount of mayo.
All the meat "salads" (tuna, egg, chicken, etc) work the same way.
I won't eat any store-bought potato salad, WAY too much mayo (and missing most of the stuff I listed above)

As to eating it warm? I prefer it chilled, but it's good warm too.

[Mordar]

I have never said that I liked potato salad. As I mentioned, I dislike stuff with mayo in it.

But I have never heard of warm potato salad. My family always insisted on cooled or at least room temperature.

The trick to potato salad. In goes the egg, mustard, celery seed, sweet relish, dill pickle juice, horseradish, pepper, etc. Stir. Only after that, if it doesn't stick together, do you add the smallest amount of mayo.
All the meat "salads" (tuna, egg, chicken, etc) work the same way.
I won't eat any store-bought potato salad, WAY too much mayo (and missing most of the stuff I listed above)

As to eating it warm? I prefer it chilled, but it's good warm too.

The traditional warm potato salad doesn't use mayo...and by warm I mean "well above room temperature". It is nice and tangy like the sauerkraut I always want with it!

- M

[KorvinStarmast]

Does "left out on a picnic table on a hot summer day" count?

No. If you want to, I'll post my fave German Potato Salad recipe that an Irish lady taught to me 40 years ago. It's the standard against which all others are measured. The German lady I was dating at the time liked it better than her mom's recipe. (She was from Freiburg).

When it comes to hot dogs, it's kinda about what mood I'm in.

I no longer boil hot dogs or sausages. Grill, or, broiler, or iron skillet.

[bunsen_h]

I no longer boil hot dogs or sausages. Grill, or, broiler, or iron skillet.

There's also the high-voltage method, whereby the ends are impaled on spikes that are then connected to a wall outlet. (Order of operations is important here. I've seen commercial devices that had safety features, e.g. a switch that cuts in only when the cover is closed.) Quick and easy. I gather that it's especially interesting in locations where the electrical supply is 240VAC rather than just 120VAC.

[Liquor Box]

You specifically call it a "US idea".

Yes, I find the US idea that British food is bad strange given the similarities in diet. I find the idea less strange from Europeans because my impression is their usual diet is less similar. I think I clarified this very specifically several pages back in response to Tzardok.

That is not saying "These things are American." That is saying "These things are not American because they are eaten almost everywhere".

No. Saying that the US claims fried chicken as a US food, but doesn't acknowledge apply pie is british is not saying that fried chicken is not US. It's pointing out the inconsistency in disclaiming certain foods as British (curries, apple pie) and claiming foods that have a similar type of connection to american cuisine (NY Pizza, fried chicken). Whether you consider them to be part of the national cuisine or not, my only point is that they be treated consistently. Having said that, I do think fried chicken is American, and apply pie is English etc.

Again, did you mean to reply to someone else here? I have never claimed that British foods aren't British. And, conveniently, I do not have other posts in this very thread which directly contradict that statement. Who are you talking to here? What are you trying to argue? Because if you are intending this for me, then it's a pretty big non-sequitor, since I've never opposed it.

Yes. As noted above my point was that its strange that US looks down on British foods because their diets are similar, and the nature of their national foods are similar. So when someone responds saying "ah but USA has xxx", I will respond by saying, "yes, that's analogous to Britian having yyy".

Do you have anything you actually want to discuss? Because if you just want me to keep clarifying what I have already said (pretty clearly IMO), then I'm not too interested.

[Mordar]

Yes, I find the US idea that British food is bad strange given the similarities in diet. I find the idea less strange from Europeans because my impression is their usual diet is less similar. I think I clarified this very specifically several pages back in response to Tzardok.

Yes. As noted above my point was that its strange that US looks down on British foods because their diets are similar, and the nature of their national foods are similar. So when someone responds saying "ah but USA has xxx", I will respond by saying, "yes, that's analogous to Britian having yyy".

Two topics.

1) I'm curious about your US and UK diets are similar line. The US has drastically higher levels of fruit and vegetable consumption, UK is much higher in starch roots and fish. I can't source it at the moment, but I believe US beef consumption per capita is far higher than UK. Have to believe lamb/mutton much higher in the UK. Regionality probably plays a much more drastic role in diet in the US just as a byproduct of size, and I suspect you'd be right about similarity in some US regions to UK, but probably concentrated in the Atlantic states.

2) What stands as sufficient for difference? There is massive difference in the BBQ between say Texas and Korea. Both are sauced meets, generally pork or beef. What about open pit mesquite steak vs Argentine charcoal-grilled strips? What about salsa fresca vs arrabbiata? Both are tomatoes, garlic and peppers. Lefse vs tortilla vs any other kind of flatbread suitable for wrapping?

Kind of like how there are only 7 (or 16, or 36) kinds of stories to be told, there are only so many basic preparations for food. What pushes the needle?

- M

[Liquor Box]

Two topics.

1) I'm curious about your US and UK diets are similar line. The US has drastically higher levels of fruit and vegetable consumption, UK is much higher in starch roots and fish. I can't source it at the moment, but I believe US beef consumption per capita is far higher than UK. Have to believe lamb/mutton much higher in the UK. Regionality probably plays a much more drastic role in diet in the US just as a byproduct of size, and I suspect you'd be right about similarity in some US regions to UK, but probably concentrated in the Atlantic states.

I am not an expert but I may be wrong. But I suppose my impression is that if an Englishperson or American were to experience the typical diet of the other for a week or so, they would be familiar with most dishes. The majority of foods would be things they eat at home (including things like apple pie and fried chicken, which have migrated in each direction). It may well be that they eat foods in different proprtions from one another, but Americans do eat significant amounts root veges like potatos (especially as chips/fried, like English) and fish, and that Brits do eat significant amounts of beef, fruits and veges. I expect there would be a few things that are unique to each, but those would be the overwhelming minority.

My perspective on this is being from an anglo country whose culture is significantly influenced by both US and UK (I'm from NZ). While I see some drastic differences from each country (for example in terms of humour), I haven't perceived their food influence to be very different. All anecdotal and based on my own experience only (supplemented by a bit of googling as part of this conversation), but I think that is also where most people who have contributed are coming from.

2) What stands as sufficient for difference? There is massive difference in the BBQ between say Texas and Korea. Both are sauced meets, generally pork or beef. What about open pit mesquite steak vs Argentine charcoal-grilled strips? What about salsa fresca vs arrabbiata? Both are tomatoes, garlic and peppers. Lefse vs tortilla vs any other kind of flatbread suitable for wrapping?

Kind of like how there are only 7 (or 16, or 36) kinds of stories to be told, there are only so many basic preparations for food. What pushes the needle?

- M

I don;t know where the lines should be drawn between different types of foods, so long as (for the purpose of this comparison) we draw them consistently when considering American and British foods. So to use your example, if Texan bbq is distinct enough to be seen as different from other worldwide bbq styles, then surely British bbq (which does also have its own style) is also distinct.


Again, to bring it back to what Gbaji (correctly IMO) said a few pages back "[Americans] tend to associate the concept of "food from the UK" as all the boring staple kind of stuff that we don't associate with the broader cultural cuisine that both countries actually eat.". I'm pushing back against that view that things like fried chicken, NY pizza, american BBQ etc are from the US. But things that relate similarly to British cuisine like curries, British bbq, apply pie are not British. If Americans accepted curries as part of British cuisine (as they think of NY pizza as part of theirs) then I think they'd have to concede that British food is not bland. If they accept foods like apply pie that have originated in UK but have become international are Britsh (as they maintain that fried chicken is American) then I think they'd have to concede that some British foods are delicious. That is evidenced by Americans adopting those foods (apple pie, bacon and egg breakfast, roasts etc) into their own diet to a large extent, which I am not sure is something so true of continental Europeans.