Random questions

[Belsirk]

Random questions of the lifre (at OoTS)

As my beer is good and is still cold I was wondering stupid things

1. Could Xykon or Redcloak replicate the soul splicing ? And if yes, in a given scenario where one of them slays and forces the soul splicing over the other, could the winner achieve the ritual spell by itself? (XyRed? Redkon?)
2. Can the Arch-demons take control of V’s body if its remains in an anti-magic zone? And what would happen if said body remains in anti-magic zone when the demons must return V’s soul ?
3. In a normal 3.5ed setting, could an Epic/ancestral piercing an ancient/epic red dragon’s natural armor? (too drunk to remember and books in another continent) I'm with the idea that will be masterwork weapons vs very high natural armor but not sure.
4. If the purple color is added with success, and thus the snarl is forever captured (or undone). If a fifth color emerges, would the gods not dissolve the current world to create something superior to everything that had been done in the past?
5. If the gods knew of what they were done and how, why were they unable to figure how to create a new color?
6. Is the beer of annihilation cannon? And if yes, it was created by Hel?

Bonus question as the second beer is opened:

If Durkon had been smart and spilled the beans about the Dark One risking to not survive for the next world, Would had Red Cloak passed the message to his deity? Or it would had saved that for himself due his pride?

[Tzardok]

Random questions of the lifre (at OoTS)

As my beer is good and is still cold I was wondering stupid things

1. Could Xykon or Redcloak replicate the soul splicing ? And if yes, in a given scenario where one of them slays and forces the soul splicing over the other, could the winner achieve the ritual spell by itself? (XyRed? Redkon?)

How would they? Neither of them actually own any souls to splice, and even if they killed each other, they wouldn't own each others souls?

2. Can the Arch-demons take control of V’s body if its remains in an anti-magic zone? And what would happen if said body remains in anti-magic zone when the demons must return V’s soul ?

My assumption is that the fiends abuse whatever mechanism moves souls to their respective afterlifes. And as people who die in anti-magic fields still can go to heaven...

3. In a normal 3.5ed setting, could an Epic/ancestral piercing an ancient/epic red dragon’s natural armor? (too drunk to remember and books in another continent) I'm with the idea that will be masterwork weapons vs very high natural armor but not sure.

I am not sure what you mean. Like, a weapon that ignores natural armor? That would need to be one that deals damage with touch attacks. Don't know any, but that doesn't mean any.

4. If the purple color is added with success, and thus the snarl is forever captured (or undone). If a fifth color emerges, would the gods not dissolve the current world to create something superior to everything that had been done in the past?

That would give the Snarl another chance at escaping. Why would they risk it?

5. If the gods knew of what they were done and how, why were they unable to figure how to create a new color?

What is that supposed to mean? What is it that the gods are supposed to know? How they came to be or what? Do the gods know how they came to be?

6. Is the beer of annihilation cannon? And if yes, it was created by Hel?

[Somniloquist]

I can answer 5: If the gods got involved in helping a mortal become a god, then that by definition would mean the new god shares a quiddity with the gods that helped. A new quiddity requires a mortal to ascend to godhood without any other gods helping.

[Provengreil]

Random questions of the lifre (at OoTS)

As my beer is good and is still cold I was wondering stupid things

1. Could Xykon or Redcloak replicate the soul splicing ? And if yes, in a given scenario where one of them slays and forces the soul splicing over the other, could the winner achieve the ritual spell by itself? (XyRed? Redkon?)

They could get a splice if the demons controlling the souls of the splicees would give it to them, yes. The hard part is getting someone to offer it to them. I also don't know it they could be forced to work that way, but even if they could, I doubt one person could do both parts of the ritual even with asplice.

2. Can the Arch-demons take control of V’s body if its remains in an anti-magic zone? And what would happen if said body remains in anti-magic zone when the demons must return V’s soul ?

I'm gonna go with probably. I doubt anything prevents one from teleporting into an AMF and as DM, I'd rule the same for that kind of soul movement.

3. In a normal 3.5ed setting, could an Epic/ancestral piercing an ancient/epic red dragon’s natural armor? (too drunk to remember and books in another continent) I'm with the idea that will be masterwork weapons vs very high natural armor but not sure.

In the AMF, it's literally just a masterwork sword. Roy can probably get through it on strength but if it requires magic of any kind to pierce, it should apply.

4. If the purple color is added with success, and thus the snarl is forever captured (or undone). If a fifth color emerges, would the gods not dissolve the current world to create something superior to everything that had been done in the past?

Plausible. They'd want to nurse him and TDO until they can survive a world gap.

5. If the gods knew of what they were done and how, why were they unable to figure how to create a new color?

I'm honestly not sure what you're asking here. Per what I THINK you're asking, they probably never imagined that it could be possible.

6. Is the beer of annihilation cannon? And if yes, it was created by Hel?

IDK if it's canon, but it sounds more like something Thor would make to cheat the system of dishonor. Remember, if the livers die fighting the dwarf gets into Valhalla.


Bonus question as the second beer is opened:

If Durkon had been smart and spilled the beans about the Dark One risking to not survive for the next world, Would had Red Cloak passed the message to his deity? Or it would had saved that for himself due his pride?

I don't think Durkon did the best job of explaining things, but even if he did Redcloak is going to have a hard time leaving his commitment to the plan. Explaining the gods' cycle of world creation and reaping is just that same scenario with one more fact in the air.

[Space Sorceress]

5. If the gods knew of what they were done and how, why were they unable to figure how to create a new color?

I'm honestly not sure what you're asking here. Per what I THINK you're asking, they probably never imagined that it could be possible.

The gods cannot create new colors themselves - individually, they can only create things of their own colors, and collaborations such as the mortal plane/inhabitants/etc are explicitly made of all three colors combined, rather than Arbitrary New Color.

As is so often the case when independent creations exist in a setting, mortalkind themselves ended up creating purple quiddity - to do so was outside the scope of the gods.

[Aidan]

Random questions of the lifre (at OoTS)


4. If the purple color is added with success, and thus the snarl is forever captured (or undone). If a fifth color emerges, would the gods not dissolve the current world to create something superior to everything that had been done in the past?
5. If the gods knew of what they were done and how, why were they unable to figure how to create a new color?

Regarding #4 first I kinda doubt the gods would do that, firstly because if a fifth quiddity emerges after sealing the snarl with 4 color seals if they're really feeling cautious they can probably just try some extra reinforcement on those spots using the fifth quiddity. They would probably make sure both the Dark One and this hypothetical 5th quiddity are kept in the loop about the snarl, why not to poke it, and how to survive if the snarl destroys this world.

They just don't have much of a reason to risk destroying the world if the snarl is not an eminent threat.

Regarding #5, I would be surprised if none of the gods thought about this at some point or tried at some point to create a new color, but if I may present a theory. The gods emerged from beyond chaos and whatever at the beginning of the universe. They knew about four colors, Red, Blue, Yellow, and Green. When the Snarl destroyed the Eastern gods and the green quiddity faded the gods surely realized pretty quickly their inability to stop the snarl related to the loss of the green quiddity. If I was in their shoes I think I would try to respark the green quiddity, after all, to their knowledge no other quiddities can exist, so why waste time trying to do make something that may not exist when you can try making something that you know used to exist?

So my guess is they did try to revive the green quiddity at some point or another, and when that didn't bear fruit they just came to believe it was impossible to raise any new quiddity.

[Metastachydium]

the beer of annihilation

This one, available here. (Also, while I see a clear potential for weaponizing it, it's certainly not an artillery piece.)

[brian 333]

This one, available here. (Also, while I see a clear potential for weaponizing it, it's certainly not an artillery piece.)

Get some boards and empty barrels and set up a bar, then line it with one beer-stein per two dwarves in the attcking infantry.

Use heavy crossbows to finish off the ones who pick up a mug.

[Belsirk]

1. Could Xykon or Redcloak replicate the soul splicing ? And if yes, in a given scenario where one of them slays and forces the soul splicing over the other, could the winner achieve the ritual spell by itself? (XyRed? Redkon?)

How would they? Neither of them actually own any souls to splice, and even if they killed each other, they wouldn't own each others souls?

Sorry, I should have been clearer here. I mean that either Xykon or Red Cloak captures the soul from the other one. We know that Xykon already can do it (

Spoiler

Show

and it is a good thing he actually can't do the soul splicing due to the couple of souls he has already captured

And Red cloak has easy access to Xykon's soul if his body is destroyed (again)

They could get a splice if the demons controlling the souls of the splicees would give it to them, yes. The hard part is getting someone to offer it to them. I also don't know it they could be forced to work that way, but even if they could, I doubt one person could do both parts of the ritual even with asplice.

Oh, I didn't remember this part. I was with the idea that the special offer from the arch-demons was the 3 souls at the same time, not the technique (Spell?) itself. Particularly because Red Cloak identifies it properly.

2. Can the Arch-demons take control of V’s body if its remains in an anti-magic zone? And what would happen if said body remains in anti-magic zone when the demons must return V’s soul ?

My assumption is that the fiends abuse whatever mechanism moves souls to their respective afterlifes. And as people who die in anti-magic fields still can go to heaven...

Pretty good logic here!

I'm gonna go with probably. I doubt anything prevents one from teleporting into an AMF and as DM, I'd rule the same for that kind of soul movement.

Plus they are on the higher leagues.

3. In a normal 3.5ed setting, could an Epic/ancestral piercing an ancient/epic red dragon’s natural armor? (too drunk to remember and books in another continent) I'm with the idea that will be masterwork weapons vs very high natural armor but not sure.

I am not sure what you mean. Like, a weapon that ignores natural armor? That would need to be one that deals damage with touch attacks. Don't know any, but that doesn't mean any.

Ah sorry, I was speaking from memory. The dragon will still have all its natural armor class, and the weapons from the party would be at much masterworks, so not extra damage. I don't even remember if dragons have some kind of damage reduction, and much less if this persists in ATF (I think so due being a supernatural effect)

4. If the purple color is added with success, and thus the snarl is forever captured (or undone). If a fifth color emerges, would the gods not dissolve the current world to create something superior to everything that had been done in the past?

That would give the Snarl another chance at escaping. Why would they risk it?

Mmm, pretty solid point. Even the discussion of doing it or not, may bring more chaos to the creation and make stronger the Snarl.

Plausible. They'd want to nurse him and TDO until they can survive a world gap.

Yeah, very important point!

Regarding #4 first I kinda doubt the gods would do that, firstly because if a fifth quiddity emerges after sealing the snarl with 4 color seals if they're really feeling cautious they can probably just try some extra reinforcement on those spots using the fifth quiddity. They would probably make sure both the Dark One and this hypothetical 5th quiddity are kept in the loop about the snarl, why not to poke it, and how to survive if the snarl destroys this world.
>
> They just don't have much of a reason to risk destroying the world if the snarl is not an eminent threat.

Plus, probably they are already without ideas for a new world

5. If the gods knew of what they were done and how, why were they unable to figure how to create a new color?

What is that supposed to mean? What is it that the gods are supposed to know? How they came to be or what? Do the gods know how they came to be?

Ah, when Thor spoken with Durkon on the last book there were two important facts:

1. Gods understand from where they came, and how to persist.
2. Probably, all the gods were unware that new colors were possible

I can answer 5: If the gods got involved in helping a mortal become a god, then that by definition would mean the new god shares a quiddity with the gods that helped. A new quiddity requires a mortal to ascend to godhood without any other gods helping.

Ouch, this has logic but also reinforce the bad joke about the reason behind the goblinoids races existence in this world.

I'm honestly not sure what you're asking here. Per what I THINK you're asking, they probably never imagined that it could be possible.

Stubborns and imaginatives with the mortal worlds. BUT, blindfold from their own nature? Sounds more than plausible :)

As is so often the case when independent creations exist in a setting, mortalkind themselves ended up creating purple quiddity - to do so was outside the scope of the gods.

Yep, pretty good conclusion here.

If I was in their shoes I think I would try to respark the green quiddity, after all, to their knowledge no other quiddities can exist, so why waste time trying to do make something that may not exist when you can try making something that you know used to exist?

So my guess is they did try to revive the green quiddity at some point or another, and when that didn't bear fruit they just came to believe it was impossible to raise any new quiddity.

Pretty good logic here. After all, the gods tried a lot of things since the first world.

6. Is the beer of annihilation cannon? And if yes, it was created by Hel?

IDK if it's canon, but it sounds more like something Thor would make to cheat the system of dishonor. Remember, if the livers die fighting the dwarf gets into Valhalla.

Actually, this is why I think it would had been created by Hel. Instant death from the second most loved thing by the dwarvens, said dead would come from a non-combat scenario. This smells to Hel.

Of course, Thor could also had created it to justify honorable deaths from fighting the impossible saving throw :P

[Tzardok]

Sorry, I should have been clearer here. I mean that either Xykon or Red Cloak captures the soul from the other one. We know that Xykon already can do it (

Spoiler

Show

and it is a good thing he actually can't do the soul splicing due to the couple of souls he has already captured

And Red cloak has easy access to Xykon's soul if his body is destroyed (again)

That's kinda my point. Xykon has those souls, but he doesn't own them. They are the property of whatever afterlife they are supposed to go to. Xykon doesn't have any more claim to them than a thief on that nice chandelier he took. Neither does Redcloak have claim over Xykon's soul in its phylactery. I hold the position that you need to own a soul before you can even begin to think how to splice them.

Ah sorry, I was speaking from memory. The dragon will still have all its natural armor class, and the weapons from the party would be at much masterworks, so not extra damage. I don't even remember if dragons have some kind of damage reduction, and much less if this persists in ATF (I think so due being a supernatural effect)

Dragons from a certain age on have Damage Reduction/Magic. It turns off in Antimagic, because its a supernatural effect.

Ah, when Thor spoken with Durkon on the last book there were two important facts:

1. Gods understand from where they came,

That page doesn't seem to talk about how gods come into being.

[Precure]

All alcoholic drinks are deadly on some way, and annihilate some part of us. Hence, the Beer of Annihilation is just regular beer.

[Peelee]

That's kinda my point. Xykon has those souls, but he doesn't own them.

Possession is 9/10ths of the haunting law.

[InvisibleBison]

Possession is 9/10ths of the haunting law.

Even if this was how it actually worked, I'm not convinced 9/10ths of a soul splice would be much good.

[Lord Torath]

All alcoholic drinks are deadly on some way, and annihilate some part of us. Hence, the Beer of Annihilation is just regular beer.

[gbaji]

Lots of other good answers. But this one stuck out at me:

I'm gonna go with probably. I doubt anything prevents one from teleporting into an AMF and as DM, I'd rule the same for that kind of soul movement.

I would assume that the AMF itself would prevent someone from teleporting into it. Teleport is a spell. Therefore... magic. Teleporting into a space would be just as magical as teleporting out of a space, and I'm assuming you can't do that, so it follows that you should not be able to teleport into one either.

At least, that's how I'd run it.

As a side point, I do agree with the bit about souls moving on if one dies in an AMF, but what the Fiends are doing is more than that. They also protect the body in some way, while holding on to the soul. And that would absolutely require some actual magical effect, and not just a clever use of otherwise natural processes. The question in that case is whether or not the magic they are using is powerful enough to work in an AMF. If it's equivalent to an artifact effect, then yes. If not, I'd say no. Which, I suppose, also applies to the teleport question as well.

As an additional aside, I fully support the use of beer as fuel for speculation, both wild and otherwise.

[whitehelm]

As a side point, I do agree with the bit about souls moving on if one dies in an AMF, but what the Fiends are doing is more than that. They also protect the body in some way, while holding on to the soul. And that would absolutely require some actual magical effect, and not just a clever use of otherwise natural processes. The question in that case is whether or not the magic they are using is powerful enough to work in an AMF. If it's equivalent to an artifact effect, then yes. If not, I'd say no. Which, I suppose, also applies to the teleport question as well.

Protecting V's body was just "good customer service", it's not required by the contract. I think they'd just take V's soul and apologize for not being able to provide protection.

[Xapi]

Re. question number 5:

I think of quiddity colors as dimensions in a space.

Let's assume that four dimensional beings look down (and inside, probably) on us. They would see some of the problems we face and think to themselves, "why can't they solve this problem by going into the fourth dimension? It's just there". Meanwhile we live in a three dimensional reality. By analogy, thinking about the theoretical existance of a 2 dimensional space and how that space would perceive a third dimension, we can make some guesses about how the four dimension space would feel to us, but we can't see it, we can't create it, we are made of this and can't create that extra dimension we need.

Even knowing the existance of a fourth and fifth color (the lost green and the new purple), the old gods can't recreate it themselves, they need the Dark One's help in creating the barriers for the Snarl with purple quiddity, they can't produce it themselves because they are made of something else.

[Gay Poro]

Hi friend, I hope you enjoyed your beer :)

1. Could Xykon or Redcloak replicate the soul splicing ? And if yes, in a given scenario where one of them slays and forces the soul splicing over the other, could the winner achieve the ritual spell by itself? (XyRed? Redkon?)

I'd say no, feels like soul splicing is a deity level feat. I also feel like it wouldn't be Xykon's thing. Regardless, I guess what you're asking is "if one could control the other, could they cast the ritual?" then yeah I'd say so.

2. Can the Arch-demons take control of V’s body if its remains in an anti-magic zone? And what would happen if said body remains in anti-magic zone when the demons must return V’s soul ?

Without being a big rules lawyer, or even rules literate, I'd say the demons must have some way to overcome antimagic. They're super strong! If V's body is in the field when V gets back, sucks to be V I guess, but they'd still "revive".

4. If the purple color is added with success, and thus the snarl is forever captured (or undone). If a fifth color emerges, would the gods not dissolve the current world to create something superior to everything that had been done in the past?

Seems like a **** move. And if they finally have a system where they can grift souls safely forever, seems like it'd be dumb to risk another snarl by creating a new universe.

5. If the gods knew of what they were done and how, why were they unable to figure how to create a new color?

Why didn't they simply create a new colour? Are they stupid?

I think they probably had a crack at creating a new colour and found they couldn't. I guess even Gods have their limits.

If Durkon had been smart and spilled the beans about the Dark One risking to not survive for the next world, Would had Red Cloak passed the message to his deity? Or it would had saved that for himself due his pride?

I doubt Redcloak would have trusted that information as too convenient, and it seems like he can't (?) commune with the Dark One so wouldn't be able to check. If he was able to parley with Durkon a bit more maybe they could figure out how to get him to be able to talk to the Dark One, but Reddy was too aggy >:(

[gbaji]

Why didn't they simply create a new colour? Are they stupid?

I think they probably had a crack at creating a new colour and found they couldn't. I guess even Gods have their limits.(

Yeah. Some variation of that, I would assume.

The gods are literally made up of a single color. They can't actually make anything other than their own color. That's why they are particularly vulnerable to the snarl. It is a creation of 4 colors. Even mortal beings and other things "made up of the threads of reality" are more "real" than the gods are. They have 3 colors, since they are creations made by the combined efforts of all three existing pantheons.

This is also why the creation of a new world requires the cooperation off all of the gods (at least representatives of each pantheon). One god, or even one pantheon, can only create things with just one color. It's also why rifts form in every world they have made. The worlds they make only have three colors, while the snarl is made up of four.

It's been mentioned in the comic that the reason The Dark One has a different quiddity is because he raised himself to godhood without any assistance from any of the other gods. Presumably, someone raised by any of the other gods, would simply have that same god's pantheon's color, so that would not help them. We have evidence of this with the elven gods, who all share a color with the western pantheon, and with the various demi-gods of the northern pantheon. Achieving godhood without active assistance or being some sort of spin off belief from an already existing one, seems to be extremely difficult and rare (and that's saying something, given that doing it with that stuff is already super rare). It's so rare that, in millions of worlds they have created, this is the first time it's happened.

So yeah. Probably not something the gods could even conceive of doing on their own, much less actually be able to do. It seems to be something that can only happen if the gods quite intentionally do *not* involve themselves in the process. The Goblins were created by Fenris, but then he just abandoned and ignored them. No gods claimed them, nor cared about them, nor sought their worship. So... the opposite of "gods trying to create a new color" is what made it happen.