Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

[KorvinStarmast]

For those arguing about Anakin as a general and being young ... this has an interesting parallel in history ...

Spoiler: similar but different

Show

...George Armstrong Custer was promoted to Brigadier General at the age of 23 due to his being very good at leading cavalry

... that also had an unhappy ending when all was said and done.

(IIRC, Alexander the Great was in charge of armies in either his late teens or early 20's ... so maybe this is a case of "age is a number" or something like that).

[Errorname]

Well, no, you can't really arrest the head of the Galactic Republic when nothing he has done is actually illegal. Remember that Palpatine is a very careful and shrewd man and if he's good at anything it's manipulating the legal and political systems to his advantage. If it wasn't legal, he'd make it legal.

The thing about a coup is that you make it legal after the fact, and what the Jedi are talking about is a coup. They're gambling their strength against Palpatine's, and they nearly pull it off in the canon.

I think it's pretty likely Palpatine has a dead man's switch that screws them, but taking him out is in the cards.

[Peelee]

The thing about a coup is that you make it legal after the fact, and what the Jedi are talking about is a coup. They're gambling their strength against Palpatine's, and they nearly pull it off in the canon.

I think it's pretty likely Palpatine has a dead man's switch that screws them, but taking him out is in the cards.

Imean, given that canonically Palpatine had a deadman's switch that screwed himself, yeah, i can easily believe he had some sort of "enact Order 66 regardless" contingency in place.

[LibraryOgre]

The thing about a coup is that you make it legal after the fact, and what the Jedi are talking about is a coup. They're gambling their strength against Palpatine's, and they nearly pull it off in the canon.

"Treason never prospers, for if it prospers, none dare call it treason."

[Infernally Clay]

The thing about a coup is that you make it legal after the fact, and what the Jedi are talking about is a coup. They're gambling their strength against Palpatine's, and they nearly pull it off in the canon.

I think it's pretty likely Palpatine has a dead man's switch that screws them, but taking him out is in the cards.

I do wonder. Did Palpatine bust out his lightsaber because he knew they knew he was the Sith Lord and he didn't need to pretend otherwise any more, or was his natural inclination to simply kill the Jedi for attempting to arrest him and say his guards or Anakin protected him or something along those lines? 'cause if Palpatine was going to kill the Jedi regardless of whether they knew he was Darth Sidious or not, then yeah I'd imagine they'd fight like they did in the movie and it's a toss up whether or not Palpatine would die against, surrender to or kill the Jedi.

There is, however, another possibility - that Palpatine does not, in fact, fight back and the Jedi have no cause to kill him because they don't know he's Darth Sidious. The Jedi take the Chancellor to the Senate, which refuses to impeach him because he technically hasn't done anything illegal, so the Jedi begin to physically remove politicians they believe are corrupt but then Palpatine accuses the Jedi of trying to overthrow the Republic and activates Order 66.

[warty goblin]

If you do a coup, you don't hand over the ex head of state to any existing body, certainly not one he's been influencing for years. You make up a new one for the express purpose of trying him, and a healthily sized list of other people close to him. This way you can ensure they are found guilty of whatever it is, and safely disposed of. And they probably are guilty of some crap, generally the sort a head of state is shielded from actual prosecution for by being head of state. But, since they aren't head of state anymore, they doesn't matter.

Is this legal? Who cares. Legal is just magic social contract juice sprinkled over some stuff and blessed by the people who tell the people with guns what to do. The point of a coup is that your group decides what the legal magic is. At this level, and in these circumstances, legal is just what the people with power decide it is. If the Jedi seize Palpatine, that's them.

[Mordar]

Kinda makes you wonder how much of Palpatine’s success boiled down to right place, right time.

...and seizing the moment. Who's success doesn't?

For those arguing about Anakin as a general and being young ... this has an interesting parallel in history ...

Spoiler: similar but different

Show

...George Armstrong Custer was promoted to Brigadier General at the age of 23 due to his being very good at leading cavalry

... that also had an unhappy ending when all was said and done.

(IIRC, Alexander the Great was in charge of armies in either his late teens or early 20's ... so maybe this is a case of "age is a number" or something like that).

As I recall that was a temporary battlefield promotion...didn't he die as a Colonel? Confirmed he was only an Lt. Colonel. Dropped from Major General back down to Captain in the regulars, then built up to Lt Col.

- M

[Doug Lampert]

As I recall that was a temporary battlefield promotion...didn't he die as a Colonel? Confirmed he was only an Lt. Colonel. Dropped from Major General back down to Captain in the regulars, then built up to Lt Col.

Battlefield ranks are usually brevets, and Custer was a brevet Major General, but he was also a commissioned Volunteer Army Brigadier General, and almost all the ACW union officers had volunteer ranks. But the regular army rank was captain, and he did in fact revert to that after the end of the war.

Link discussing rank (with Custer as the example) in the ACW.

[Infernally Clay]

If you do a coup, you don't hand over the ex head of state to any existing body, certainly not one he's been influencing for years. You make up a new one for the express purpose of trying him, and a healthily sized list of other people close to him. This way you can ensure they are found guilty of whatever it is, and safely disposed of. And they probably are guilty of some crap, generally the sort a head of state is shielded from actual prosecution for by being head of state. But, since they aren't head of state anymore, they doesn't matter.

Is this legal? Who cares. Legal is just magic social contract juice sprinkled over some stuff and blessed by the people who tell the people with guns what to do. The point of a coup is that your group decides what the legal magic is. At this level, and in these circumstances, legal is just what the people with power decide it is. If the Jedi seize Palpatine, that's them.

That's a pretty dark road you're suggesting the Jedi go down and the galaxy already fears they've lost their way.

It won't matter how good their intentions are or even how right they are to depose Palpatine and the corrupt politicians of the Senate. The Jedi weren't exactly popular as the war neared its end and perceptions of the Jedi were warped by their actions during it. They were no longer seen as peacekeepers but an army, in much the same way it happened with the Doctor as he became more militant. The very meaning of the word doctor itself - which in-universe every civilisation in the universe gets from him - changed from "healer" to "great warrior", and the Jedi had a similar image problem.

This is made worse, of course, by the Ruusan Reformation. The law passed a thousand years ago explicitly out of fear of the Jedi trying to overthrow the Galactic Republic and install their own puppet government. The Jedi would just be proving them right.

The last thing the Jedi surely want to do is prove them right.

[Zevox]

That's a pretty dark road you're suggesting the Jedi go down and the galaxy already fears they've lost their way.

He's not suggesting anything, he's pointing out that's what they were doing. Going after Palpatine is engaging in a coup. What they were doing was already well outside any law the Republic could possibly have, and all they could do to justify it would basically be PR after the fact to try and make their actions as acceptable to the public as possible. That's why they were so hesitant to do it until learning of Palpatine being a Sith Lord - it's an emergency, last-resort action that comes with a ton of problems, and they know that full well.

[Errorname]

That's a pretty dark road you're suggesting the Jedi go down and the galaxy already fears they've lost their way.

Well, it's kind of the only road left to the Jedi at this point where they actually have a chance of winning. They're out of good options and they've let Palpatine get so far ahead of them that they don't really have a path to victory that doesn't involve getting their hands dirty.

[LibraryOgre]

To paraphrase Yoda, "Once you start down the [arrest the head of state] path, forever will it dominate your [next 10-15 years]".

[Mechalich]

By the end of the Clone Wars Palpatine had been in office for years beyond legally mandated term limits under the guise of a 'galactic emergency.' He was, in fact, a de facto dictator already. The Jedi plan was basically to show up after the emergency had ended - which they arbitrarily but not unreasonably attached to Grievous' death - and demand he leave office, effective immediately, as the law required. It is possible that the Jedi Order has and/or Mace Windu acquired the legal authority to make this move, though it is unlikely. Ultimately, we don't know, because while courts exist in the Republic, our knowledge of their function and how they relate to the Senate and Chancellor is virtually nil. In any case, Mace clearly expected Palpatine would never step down and he'd have to use force. I assume that, prior to the Sith Lord reveal, he expected to have to fight through the entire Red Guard while Palpatine tried to flee.

[Infernally Clay]

Well, it's kind of the only road left to the Jedi at this point where they actually have a chance of winning. They're out of good options and they've let Palpatine get so far ahead of them that they don't really have a path to victory that doesn't involve getting their hands dirty.

As I said, I think the only way to beat Palpatine is to not play his game. If he wants to take over the Republic and reform it into an Empire, let him. The Rebellion wasn't born because the Jedi were wiped out by Order 66, but because Palpatine's Empire was a fascist state and, as Karis Nemik put it, tyranny requires constant effort because it is so unnatural. Once the Rebellion rose against the Empire then the Jedi could act, because all they're doing is helping the innocent fight oppression.

I think Luke proved this was the right way to handle Palpatine most succinctly in Return of the Jedi when Palpatine pitted father against son and Luke just refused to participate, ruining Palpatine's entire scheme. Palpatine's whole thing is creating situations wherein it feels like whatever you do, he comes out on top. So the most obvious solution is to make him play by your rules instead.

[Peelee]

To paraphrase Yoda, "Once you start down the [arrest the head of state] path, forever will it dominate your [next 10-15 years]".

Only a Jedi deals in absolutes.

[Errorname]

As I said, I think the only way to beat Palpatine is to not play his game. If he wants to take over the Republic and reform it into an Empire, let him.

This is not the sort of the thing that the Generals of the Grand Republic Army are likely to do. They have already played his game to the point where they have no way out but through.

[gbaji]

On the question of what would have happened if Anakin had been off dealing with Grievious or Maul, wasn't that the whole point of Palpatine's "request" that Anakin be on the council? I don't recall if it's specifically mentioned, but I always assumed that the reason the Kenobi goes off to deal with Grievioius alone and without Anakin (and same deal with Maul, in TCW) is that this would be seen as a direct violation of Palpatine's request. Anakin can't be attending Council meetings as the Chancellors representative if he's on the other side of the galaxy hunting down Greivious (or on Mandalore dealing with that crisis).

I always got that this was done intentionally by Palpatine to ensure that Anakin was on Coruscant at the same time that Grievious was killed, specifically so he could feed the whole "I'm Sith Lord" to the council precisely when he wanted, so as to force their reaction, and give him the exact justification he needed to declare the Jedi enemies of the state, execute Order 66, and take full control as Emperor.

And yeah. We could say "that's dumb, because he could not have possibly known that Anakin would show up to save him from Windu!". And if we take that fight at face value, we'd be right in saying that. Honestly? I always assumed that Palpatine could have defeated Windu at any time, but was holding back and pretending to be weak and on the verge of death, to force Anakin to have to take the step of siding with him and against the Jedi. He was willing to suffer personal injury to complete Anakins change to Vader (also not sure how much of that transformation was actual injury and how much was him using so much dark side power, but whatever).

Point being, if Anakin hadn't showed up when he did, Palpatine would have just killed Windu himself and moved on with the whole "proclaim the Jedi enemies, kill them all, etc". He may have had to find another way to get Anakin to join him (or have to kill him). But the fate of the Jedi as an order would have been the same IMO. I suppose we could also imagine a similar sequence even if the Jedi did send Anakin off on a mission at the same time. As several posters have pointed out, the Jedi were already planning on taking action if Palpatine didn't give up power after Grievious' defeat. That confrontation would have happened anyway. Just the details would have been slightly different (and no chance of Palpatine turning Anakin right then and there).

[Mordar]

Only a Jedi deals in absolutes.

Are you trying to make us believe you are a Jedi Dragon?

Re: Not playing Sidious' game...I think Joshua addressed that about 20 years beforehand. Too bad the Jedi didn't listen.

- M

[Errorname]

On the question of what would have happened if Anakin had been off dealing with Grievious or Maul, wasn't that the whole point of Palpatine's "request" that Anakin be on the council? I don't recall if it's specifically mentioned, but I always assumed that the reason the Kenobi goes off to deal with Grievioius alone and without Anakin (and same deal with Maul, in TCW) is that this would be seen as a direct violation of Palpatine's request. Anakin can't be attending Council meetings as the Chancellors representative if he's on the other side of the galaxy hunting down Greivious (or on Mandalore dealing with that crisis).

Eh, Jedi Councilmembers go off on assignment all the time and still fulfill their duties. Several councilmembers at that meeting are attending virtually, and the guys they send to Wookie Planet and after Grievous are both councilmembers.

The reason they keep Anakin around is that they think deploying the person with divided loyalties as a spy against his surrogate father figure is a good idea.

[Peelee]

Are you trying to make us believe you are a Jedi Dragon?

- M

Not at all! I am simply a |dragon|.

[Mordar]

Not at all! I am simply a |dragon|.

But you issued an absolute that says only Jedi deal in absolutes so I don't know what else to think, unless you are a Dragon Sith because only Sith deal in Deception?

- M

[Peelee]

But you issued an absolute that says only Jedi deal in absolutes so I don't know what else to think, unless you are a Dragon Sith because only Sith deal in Deception?

- M

Note to self, fewer jokes using algebraic notation.

[Infernally Clay]

This is not the sort of the thing that the Generals of the Grand Republic Army are likely to do. They have already played his game to the point where they have no way out but through.

The appointment of the Jedi as generals of the Grand Republic Army was just another one of Palpatine's games. The Jedi should have done what Mandalore and thousands of other systems did and remained neutral. What are they doing becoming generals in an army anyway? They're the Jedi, they're meant to prevent wars not fight in them.

The only way to beat Palpatine at his own game is to not play it. Let his clones and his droids fight each other, let him turn a corrupt Republic into an Empire. The people will rise in rebellion against his tyranny and that's when the Jedi act, not as agents of the Republic but keepers of the peace. The Rebellion would have enjoyed greater legitimacy and support if they were backed by the Jedi Order and chances are Palpatine's Empire wouldn't have lasted twenty years.

[Keltest]

The appointment of the Jedi as generals of the Grand Republic Army was just another one of Palpatine's games. The Jedi should have done what Mandalore and thousands of other systems did and remained neutral. What are they doing becoming generals in an army anyway? They're the Jedi, they're meant to prevent wars not fight in them.

The only way to beat Palpatine at his own game is to not play it. Let his clones and his droids fight each other, let him turn a corrupt Republic into an Empire. The people will rise in rebellion against his tyranny and that's when the Jedi act, not as agents of the Republic but keepers of the peace. The Rebellion would have enjoyed greater legitimacy and support if they were backed by the Jedi Order and chances are Palpatine's Empire wouldn't have lasted twenty years.

Why would they do that? They don't know that Palpatine is a Sith Lord or even antagonistic towards them. That only makes sense if theyve seen the movies and are trying to do something different.

[Errorname]

The only way to beat Palpatine at his own game is to not play it. Let his clones and his droids fight each other, let him turn a corrupt Republic into an Empire. The people will rise in rebellion against his tyranny and that's when the Jedi act, not as agents of the Republic but keepers of the peace. The Rebellion would have enjoyed greater legitimacy and support if they were backed by the Jedi Order and chances are Palpatine's Empire wouldn't have lasted twenty years.

With hindsight, yeah this is the play. The Jedi do not have that hindsight, and they are deeply enmeshed in the Republic in a way that makes them hesitant to abandon it.

[Infernally Clay]

Why would they do that? They don't know that Palpatine is a Sith Lord or even antagonistic towards them. That only makes sense if theyve seen the movies and are trying to do something different.

Palpatine doesn't need to be a Sith Lord or antagonistic towards the Jedi for them to know that if half the galaxy wants to leave the Republic because "no taxation without representation", then maybe siding with the government that won't let them secede is a bad idea to begin with.

[Keltest]

Palpatine doesn't need to be a Sith Lord or antagonistic towards the Jedi for them to know that if half the galaxy wants to leave the Republic because "no taxation without representation", then maybe siding with the government that won't let them secede is a bad idea to begin with.

A: The Separatists aren't "half the galaxy" by any means, theyre a relative minority of planets, mostly along the outer rim, being used by banking and mercantile groups
2: Regardless of whether or not the claims of the Separatists are legitimate (which, to be fair, they mostly are on paper), invading the republic and assassinating senators is not a good reaction. Remember that the Republic didn't even have an army while they were building theirs, so their intent was violence the whole time.
iii: So suddenly they aren't "not playing Palpatine's game" its just a moral decision they should have reached on their own?

[Infernally Clay]

A: The Separatists aren't "half the galaxy" by any means, theyre a relative minority of planets, mostly along the outer rim, being used by banking and mercantile groups
2: Regardless of whether or not the claims of the Separatists are legitimate (which, to be fair, they mostly are on paper), invading the republic and assassinating senators is not a good reaction. Remember that the Republic didn't even have an army while they were building theirs, so their intent was violence the whole time.
iii: So suddenly they aren't "not playing Palpatine's game" its just a moral decision they should have reached on their own?

I think you're downplaying just how many systems wanted to leave the Republic. As far as we're aware there are about twenty four thousand systems total in the Republic and even before the war broke out the Separatist Council represented several thousand of them - with Dooku confident that up to ten thousand systems would join them after the Battle of Geonosis, which they apparently or at least mostly did. Once you account for the fifteen hundred systems that chose to remain neutral it would appear that the Republic and Separatist split wasn't especially lopsided. You're talking 55/45 split or maybe 60/40 at a push.

It wasn't a relative minority, but it is true that Dooku and his Separatist Council effectively co-opted the movement so they could profit from it and we must be mindful not to conflate what Dooku did with what the Outer Rim worlds wanted. As I pointed out earlier there's a whole arc in The Clone Wars about Outer Rim politicians who never wanted this war and were desperate to negotiate a peaceful end to it, but neither Dooku nor Palpatine were ever going to let that happen. Dooku attempted to assassinate politicians, yeah, but I somewhat doubt he asked the Outer Rim systems for permission. His role in the war was to keep it going on for as long as he could.

But yes, staying neutral is a moral conclusion the Jedi should have arrived at regardless of the circumstances. If systems want to leave the Republic and govern themselves because they're getting taxed too much by the Republic and do not feel as though their interests are being properly represented by a corrupt and broken Senate, they should be free to do so. It is not the duty of the Jedi Order to enforce the Republic's decision that they aren't allowed to. By siding with the Republic against the systems that wanted to leave it, the Jedi irreparably damaged the ability of Outer Rim systems to trust them.

[Keltest]

Irrespective of anything else, neutrality stopped being an option once they learned that Count Dooku was in charge and specifically intending to act with hostility to the Jedi. You can't be neutral in a war declared against you.

[warty goblin]

Why would they do that? They don't know that Palpatine is a Sith Lord or even antagonistic towards them. That only makes sense if theyve seen the movies and are trying to do something different.

I don't think it even makes sense then. The Jedi are agents of the Republic, they go around lightsabering people on the government's behalf. It seems highly unlikely that the Republic is going to allow one of its strongest assets to just not show up to the war because, like, bad vibes. Also, Palpatine's end goal is to destroy the Jedi, this is handing him a letter with "please execute us for desertion" tastefully embossed on it in gold foil. Do the Jedi know this? No, because they don't know Palpatine is a Sith lord, i.e. that the whole is a trap. But they can reasonably know that the entire Republic will be out for their blood of they do that. You can't call yourselves the protectors of the Republic and then scamper off when the Republic needs protecting and expect this to work well for you.

And even if they somehow up camp and vanish into the galactic aether for a couple decades, you think they're going to come back and be popular? They're the losers who peaced out in a war, let planets burn, let the Republic fall, and you think people are going to be on their side?

No, by the time of the movies, the Jedi are conjoined to the Republic, and will survive or fall with it.