Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

[Errorname]

In this scenario Palpatine will immediately turn on Anakin following killing Mace Windu. Palpatine almost certainly wins that fight.

I am not convinced of this. Anakin in 19 BBY is at the height of his powers and Palpatine has just barely survived a fight with Mace. Palpatine's got a shot, but I wouldn't call it a sure thing.

The Jedi fail to conceive of this as possible, but they don't know squat about bioengineering so that's a blind spot that makes sense.

This makes sense if we ignore that in the arc immediately preceding the Jedi discovering Dooku's hand in the construction of the clone army, a clone went into a fugue state and executed a Jedi, and it was blamed on a "malfunction with his inhibitor chip".

I feel like Clone Wars probably needed to choose between the Sifo-Dyas episode and the Clone Conspiracy arc, because doing both literally back to back makes the Jedi look like complete fools.

[Infernally Clay]

This makes sense if we ignore that in the arc immediately preceding the Jedi discovering Dooku's hand in the construction of the clone army, a clone went into a fugue state and executed a Jedi, and it was blamed on a "malfunction with his inhibitor chip".

I feel like Clone Wars probably needed to choose between the Sifo-Dyas episode and the Clone Conspiracy arc, because doing both literally back to back makes the Jedi look like complete fools.

Not fools, but blind to their own vulnerabilities. Like I said, it's a monastic religion that hasn't needed to change or adapt in any way for a thousand years and this has made them complacent, because they believe the Jedi Order will persevere - as it always has done.

They knew the clone army was dodgy, they knew Dooku was setting them up for some big trap, but Yoda said quite matter-of-factly that they just needed to win the war before he could spring it, as if it was a simple thing to do. As he himself said, arrogance was a trait becoming more common among Jedi.

In their defence, however, I don't think anyone could have seen Order 66 coming. Sure, biomechanical control chips designed to make clones more compliant and less aggressive is pretty morally iffy but the Jedi had absolute faith in the clones they had fought beside for years at this point.

The idea that the clones would just turn on a dime, to use American parlance, and start shooting every Force-sensitive person within range is beggar's belief. It would never cross their minds that it was the explicit purpose of the clones to do just that and the clones themselves are in the same boat. They would die for the Jedi they serve. The idea that a chip can force them to kill those same Jedi is horrifying for the clones that learn about it, which is why there are whole arcs dedicated to some clones finding out about the chips and removing them.

In fact it kinda speaks volumes of the respect that the Jedi had for the clones that Anakin trained Ahsoka to survive an attack from them, because he believed if you could survive being surrounded by clone troopers trying to kill you then you could survive anything.

[GloatingSwine]

Not fools, but blind to their own vulnerabilities..

We see that in the movies, with the fact that Kamino was erased from the Jedi Archives and it was an inaccessible thought to the trained Jedi that this might be the case. Only a child who hadn't yet learned to think it was impossible would have thought it possible.

Which almost certainly extends to other areas of their life and doctrine. There have almost certainly been times where the Order could have taken in a child exactly like Anakin was, with his fears and attachments, and known how to help him rather than saying "just be more enlightened bro!" because they had only been dealing with the very young and their unformed minds for so long.

The Jedi fell because they were pushed, but they had walked to the edge of the cliff all by themselves without noticing it was there.

[Sapphire Guard]

Hang on, that's not what happened in Jingo.

Spoiler

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Sam didn't concentrate on the real problem, he ignored the war in favour of pursuing kidnapped Angua, and was completely duped by the Prince. He didn't see through the schemes, he fell for them completely, until 71 Hour Ahmed literally had to explain them to him. If Ahmed had not been completely co-operative, he would have just got the entire watch massacred by the D'regs in the desert.

He doesn't see through any schemes or get to the heart of the problem, he stumbles on a solution by pure luck because the person he was pursuing for murder and kidnapping is actually on his side. Ahmed helpfully explains the plot. There are no parallels with the Jedi situation at all.


As for quotes, ever heard 'All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing?'

Kamino was erased from the Jedi Archives and it was an inaccessible thought to the trained Jedi that this might be the case. Only a child who hadn't yet learned to think it was impossible would have thought it possible.

To one librarian that Obi Wan and Yoda do not believe but continue investigating and go on to find the planet.

Not fools, but blind to their own vulnerabilities. Like I said, it's a monastic religion that hasn't needed to change or adapt in any way for a thousand years and this has made them complacent, because they believe the Jedi Order will persevere - as it always has done.

Why do you think this?

[GloatingSwine]

To one librarian that Obi Wan and Yoda do not believe but continue investigating and go on to find the planet.

And also to at least Obi-Wan himself. He thinks something is afoot, but the obvious-to-a-child explanation "someone altered the archive" doesn't even occur to him. Yoda at least knew who to ask.

[Keltest]

And also to at least Obi-Wan himself. He thinks something is afoot, but the obvious-to-a-child explanation "someone altered the archive" doesn't even occur to him. Yoda at least knew who to ask.

It was clear to me at least that Yoda and Obi-wan were deliberately putting on their stupid hats in order to turn it into a teaching moment for the kids. If Yoda hadn't been in the middle of a lesson, the conversation would have looked very different.

[ecarden]

True, as long as you ignore that Jango Fett was also employed by the separatists and the Sifo-Dyas was confirmed dead well before the order was placed. There is enough information to work with that at least some people on the Jedi should have been suspecting that the Sith were playing both sides of the war.

Jango was a gun for hire. From the Jedi perspective he was hired to provide a genetic template and then hired for other things. He goes back to Kamino for his son and because he doesn't believe he can be traced, but his arrogance is his downfall and leads the Jedi to the clone army.

I'm really unsure your timing is correct. Sifo-Dyas did hire the Kaminoans by falsely claiming he had authority from the senate to do so. I don't think your timing on his death is correct though. Boba (Jango's payment) is born in 32 BBY, while Sifo-Dyas dies in 32 BBY.

But it does work in Episode 3.

Mace looks down his lightsaber at Palpatine, turns to Anakin and says, "I've become as wrong as he is" and drops his lightsaber.

What now? If Palpatine kills the weaponless Mace just as Mace tells Anakin that murder is wrong, Palpatine is going to lose his hold on Anakin, and his plans will go downhill from there. But if he orders Mace arrested, what then? Even if he officially dissolves the Jedi order, Anakin is not going to go slaughter Kenobi and the younglings at this point. Sure, Palpatine isn't immediately removed from power, but the "Sith Lord" secret is out. And if he tries going behind his "trusted young friend"'s back, Anakin (aided by Obiwan and Padme) is going to figure it out, and then the cat is out of the bag.

Sure, maybe, Palpatine throws much of the Council in prison and officially dissolves the Jedi order. The war is over. There's no more need for an Emperor. There's no wholesale destruction of the Jedi. And there are dark rumors about him. At best, Palpatine now has a much shakier Empire, and much stronger foes.

Or, Palpatine says 'great, now kill him just like you killed Dooku and we can get on with the business of saving your wife, buddy!' And Anakin goes 'Yes, my master.' And we end up right where we started.

There's also the very simple fact that Sifo-Dyas had no way to pay for the creation of a gigantic army (and fleet, the fleet is much more important and expensive). Neither the Kaminoans or Rothana Heavy Engineering took that order on credit.

I'll say, if you try to apply any sort of actual economic model/understanding to the Star Wars universe it simply won't work. The universe does not make any economic sense and isn't really trying to.

[GloatingSwine]

It was clear to me at least that Yoda and Obi-wan were deliberately putting on their stupid hats in order to turn it into a teaching moment for the kids. If Yoda hadn't been in the middle of a lesson, the conversation would have looked very different.

No, that doesn't track, not exactly. Obi-Wan has no other reason to be in that room because he goes specifically to ask Yoda about the case of the missing planet.

Yoda could well be and probably is playing dumb to make a point, but he's making the point to Obi-Wan. The child is able to think the unthinkable because he isn't a trained Jedi and Obi-Wan couldn't have thought of it, because he is.

Yoda being an exception in some cases* doesn't counter my point, it merely shows that Yoda is aware of the rigidity of thought in the Order and the consequences it might be having.

*He still mishandles Anakin though, because he's not perfectly wise in all things.

[Keltest]

No, that doesn't track, not exactly. Obi-Wan has no other reason to be in that room because he goes specifically to ask Yoda about the case of the missing planet.

Yoda could well be and probably is playing dumb to make a point, but he's making the point to Obi-Wan. The child is able to think the unthinkable because he isn't a trained Jedi and Obi-Wan couldn't have thought of it, because he is.

Yoda being an exception in some cases* doesn't counter my point, it merely shows that Yoda is aware of the rigidity of thought in the Order and the consequences it might be having.

*He still mishandles Anakin though, because he's not perfectly wise in all things.

Yes? Presumably he felt it important to bring up to Yoda that there was a big hole in their archives. That seems like the kind of thing that he should know about.

[GloatingSwine]

Yes? Presumably he felt it important to bring up to Yoda that there was a big hole in their archives. That seems like the kind of thing that he should know about.

That doesn't mean he knows why the hole is there and is collaborating in a bit. He's going to ask Yoda because he can't think of a reason for it to be true, even in the face of the fact. Even a reason obvious to an actual child.

Because the Jedi take as axiomatic things like the integrity of their archive for so long they become immutable truths, the idea that it might have been edited to conceal knowledge is outside the bounds of the thinkable for a trained Jedi.

[Keltest]

That doesn't mean he knows why the hole is there and is collaborating in a bit. He's going to ask Yoda because he can't think of a reason for it to be true, even in the face of the fact. Even a reason obvious to an actual child.

Because the Jedi take as axiomatic things like the integrity of their archive for so long they become immutable truths, the idea that it might have been edited to conceal knowledge is outside the bounds of the thinkable for a trained Jedi.

As a general rule, "lets assume that the characters are being completely stupid" is not an argument that will get much traction from me unless the characters are actually genuinely stupid all the time.

[GloatingSwine]

As a general rule, "lets assume that the characters are being completely stupid" is not an argument that will get much traction from me unless the characters are actually genuinely stupid all the time.

Right, but I'm not saying the characters are "being completely stupid". I'm saying that their training causes them to be unable to think certain things. There's no reading of the movie where Obi-Wan knows why Kamino is missing from the archives before he has visited Yoda and heard the truth from the mouth of a child (a concept so old it is literally biblical).

There's a point to putting that scene in the movie, to having Yoda ask the class and having a child respond instead of Yoda telling Obi-Wan directly, it's to show that there is a meaningful difference between the mode of thought of a child and a trained Jedi and sometimes the trained Jedi has lost something along the way. (I don't think the prequels are particularly good, but I also don't think George Lucas was being completely stupid).

[Sapphire Guard]

I mean, he searched for something in the archives and didn't find it. Jocasta says 'If it's not in our archives, it doesn't exist, and Obi Wan doesn't believe her and continues investigating. He takes Dex's word ove a Jedi librarian, but doesn't immediately jump to the conclusion of sabotage, because when he can't find something he knows is there, the natural conclusion is 'I've made some kind of mistake' rather than 'Someone is sabotaging the archives.'

I'll say, if you try to apply any sort of actual economic model/understanding to the Star Wars universe it simply won't work. The universe does not make any economic sense and isn't really trying to.

Nor should it. The galactic economy is vast beyong comprehension, planets are bought and sold, the economics are on a scale beyond anything we've got. You could spend years trawling through the records of , say, the Trade Federation and the Senate and not find anything.

[dancrilis]

I... can't tell if you're being facetious or not.

Kindof - there seem to occassionally be discussions on what the Jedi could have done to save themselves and accepting Palpatine as Emperor of the galaxy might well have saved them, a whole if you can't beat them join them kindof thing.

Now the Jedi were never going to do that - but they were never going to pack up and run as soon as one of their former members (Dooku) started attacking the Republic but that option gets brought up more frequently.

Palpatine is evil, the Empire is evil.
...
Maybe the younger generation who have only known war might be willing to accept it, but the old masters wouldn't.

As apparently only the Sith deal in absolutes, many senior Jedi may have already started down that path.

There's no reading of the movie where Obi-Wan knows why Kamino is missing from the archives before he has visited Yoda and heard the truth from the mouth of a child (a concept so old it is literally biblical).

I disagree, here are the two scenes first, second.

The first I read as the librarian merely shrugging off the issue as Obi-Wan having the wrong coordinates.
The second Obi-Wan has already done all the work, and the answer he gets is 'just go and look' - but this scene allows him to highlight a potentially very serious issue to the grand master of the order, it isn't that he needs to be told it was deleted it is that it being deleted is such a shocking thing that Yoda needs to be aware of it - if Yoda hadn't been teaching a class at the time then the same conclusions would have been reached.

[GloatingSwine]

I disagree, here are the two scenes first, second.

The first I read as the librarian merely shrugging off the issue as Obi-Wan having the wrong coordinates.
The second Obi-Wan has already done all the work, and the answer he gets is 'just go and look' - but this scene allows him to highlight a potentially very serious issue to the grand master of the order, it isn't that he needs to be told it was deleted it is that it being deleted is such a shocking thing that Yoda needs to be aware of it - if Yoda hadn't been teaching a class at the time then the same conclusions would have been reached.

You've missed the second part of the quote, I see. When you're assessing movies you need to proceed from the position that everything is there for a reason. At least until they start using ChatGPT to write the scripts.

There is a reason why George Lucas chose to show that scene in the way that he did. There is a reason he chose to have the truth spoken by a child and not by Yoda himself. It is because Yoda was making an additional point to Obi-Wan, and by doing so showing something about the state of the Jedi, even highly capable ones, in the time of the late Republic. If we were not intended to take that message away, that scene would not be in the movie, because there would have been no point in the audience seeing it.

Obi-Wan is there to learn something he could not conceive of on his own. Not because he's stupid, but because his training has closed certain doors in his mind.

[Keltest]

You've missed the second part of the quote, I see. When you're assessing movies you need to proceed from the position that everything is there for a reason. At least until they start using ChatGPT to write the scripts.

There is a reason why George Lucas chose to show that scene in the way that he did. There is a reason he chose to have the truth spoken by a child and not by Yoda himself. It is because Yoda was making an additional point to Obi-Wan, and by doing so showing something about the state of the Jedi, even highly capable ones, in the time of the late Republic. If we were not intended to take that message away, that scene would not be in the movie, because there would have been no point in the audience seeing it.

Obi-Wan is there to learn something he could not conceive of on his own. Not because he's stupid, but because his training has closed certain doors in his mind.

Or maybe Lucas just wanted to show Yoda in his position as teacher? Or maybe that scene wasnt there for a reason, and just didnt get cut?

[dancrilis]

If we were not intended to take that message away, that scene would not be in the movie, because there would have been no point in the audience seeing it.

The scene shows Yoda as a teacher, something we know he was from the original series, it also clarifies why Obi-Wan would tell Luke that Yoda trained him - because Yoda trained everyone.

If you think it is a statement on the experienced Jedi not being able to see past their training I doubt there is anything I can do to convince you otherwise - but you and I see the scene(s) differently.

[GloatingSwine]

Or maybe Lucas just wanted to show Yoda in his position as teacher? Or maybe that scene wasnt there for a reason, and just didnt get cut?

Which is simply an assertion that George Lucas is incompetent. Why is any scene in the movie? Surely because silly old George just forgot not to shoot it! Star Wars wasn't saved that much in the edit. Lucas knew what he wanted to show the audience and what he wanted them to feel.

The scene shows Yoda as a teacher, something we know he was from the original series, it also clarifies why Obi-Wan would tell Luke that Yoda trained him - because Yoda trained everyone.

The scene does show Yoda as a teacher. The scene having Yoda throw Obi-Wan's question to the class and get an answer Obi-Wan couldn't shows he was still teaching Obi-Wan.

[warty goblin]

I think the whole archive sequence does a few things.

1: it shows some mystery solving, which builds some expectation for what exactly is going on at Kamino. At this point the audience knows the movie involves clones, and Kamino does cloning, but making it hidden builds suspense.

2: it gets us a shut in librarian joke. I realize humor is sort of a foreign concept in these Thermian discussions, but I think it's a low key joke used to create a very minor obstacle.

3: it gets the younglings on screen. This is planting for Revenge of the Sith, so the audience will at least vaguely remember there are kids at the temple, so it doesn't seem totally random that they're present during Anakin's massacre. IIRC it's even the same kid doing the talking in both scenes.

4: it shows us Yoda in teacher mode, with kids, which is a very different view of the character than the movie otherwise offers. And I'd point out that contrary to how people keep saying the Jedi are emotionless weirdos who don't understand how people work, Yoda is warm and funny and good with kids. Lightsaber daycare looks awesome.

5: it also dovetails with Kamino being so out of the way that they don't know Sifo-Dyas is dead, and that nobody has noticed the giant army they've been making. It's not just off the beaten path, it's been erased from the map.

Or at least that very much seems how it's framed and set up to function in the narrative to me. Now there's definitely movies that are subtle enough that the obvious framing isn't the correct reading, cinematic irony is a thing. I don't think Lucas is doing that here, or anywhere else in Star Wars, because the whole saga is so completely 100% sincere and transparent in its motives that actual irony, telling you one thing and meaning another, would crash the whole enterprise. If you do that in a heightened, mythologized setting you get at best loving parody, and at worst the gutless smarm of Marvel. SW is definitely not parody, and it thankfully isn't smarm.

[Dargaron]

Nor should it. The galactic economy is vast beyong comprehension, planets are bought and sold, the economics are on a scale beyond anything we've got. You could spend years trawling through the records of , say, the Trade Federation and the Senate and not find anything.

I wouldn't go that far.

The big difference between the Clone Army and the various private forces that make up the CIS is that while both are (presumably) expensive, the CIS droids were actively being used for a purpose aside from separatism. The people spending money on them were seeing a profit, even if that profit was just "making sure the Banking Clan collects interest from defaulting miners."

Unless an army capable of outfighting multiple private security forces was somehow remarkably cheap, the effects of moving that much money around should have been felt. Especially since the people who have lots of money are all incentivized to have a good idea of how it's moving around, whether its theirs or not. Like the gravitational effects that Obi-wan points out to Yoda in the linked scene above.

[pendell]

[QUOTE=Sapphire Guard;26000970]Hang on, that's not what happened in Jingo.

Spoiler

Show

Sam didn't concentrate on the real problem, he ignored the war in favour of pursuing kidnapped Angua, and was completely duped by the Prince. He didn't see through the schemes, he fell for them completely, until 71 Hour Ahmed literally had to explain them to him. If Ahmed had not been completely co-operative, he would have just got the entire watch massacred by the D'regs in the desert.

He doesn't see through any schemes or get to the heart of the problem, he stumbles on a solution by pure luck because the person he was pursuing for murder and kidnapping is actually on his side. Ahmed helpfully explains the plot. There are no parallels with the Jedi situation at all.


As for quotes, ever heard 'All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing?'

The key point is that he had the absolute choice to go along with his training and the machinery of society, which would have resulted in war, and to "not play the game at all". He took some mis-steps, yes, but the crucial point is that he didn't make the Jedi choice of simply accepting the options presented to him as the only possible outcomes. This saved his life; we see in the alternate history version in the story what happens when he went along. In a shell game, there is no winning move, so the correct answer is not to play at all. Vimes made this choice. The Jedi didn't.

As for the quote "the only thing that requires evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" -- it goes without saying the implication is that good men should be doing something constructive as opposed to doing something that makes things even worse. Taking a choice that leads to 90%+ of your organization being shot in the back by your own troops is a choice worse than nothing. Although, I should point out I'm not advocating for "nothing", I'm advocating for the Jedi to put a lot more of their efforts into chasing down the Sith rather than getting sucked into a lose-lose war. This may, indeed, mean being outlawed by both Republic and Confederacy, becoming an underground group. But, as stated, this happened anyway, and this way a great deal more of the order may be preserved.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[KorvinStarmast]

But it does work in Episode 3.

Mace looks down his lightsaber at Palpatine, turns to Anakin and says, "I've become as wrong as he is" and drops his lightsaber.

This is one of those "bad writing" moments, or, it's a case of this:

As a general rule, "lets assume that the characters are being completely stupid" is not an argument that will get much traction from me unless the characters are actually genuinely stupid all the time.

Unfortunately, there seems to be quite a bit of that in Star Wars as a general case.

[GloatingSwine]

Unfortunately, there seems to be quite a bit of that in Star Wars as a general case.

That's no moon, it's an idiot ball!

[warty goblin]

As for the quote "the only thing that requires evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" -- it goes without saying the implication is that good men should be doing something constructive as opposed to doing something that makes things even worse. Taking a choice that leads to 90%+ of your organization being shot in the back by your own troops is a choice worse than nothing. Although, I should point out I'm not advocating for "nothing", I'm advocating for the Jedi to put a lot more of their efforts into chasing down the Sith rather than getting sucked into a lose-lose war. This may, indeed, mean being outlawed by both Republic and Confederacy, becoming an underground group. But, as stated, this happened anyway, and this way a great deal more of the order may be preserved.

So I have two points to make. First, this plan of action is completely insane based on what the Jedi know, and second, I think this whole search for the mistake line of argument is really rather missing the value of the kind of story the PT is telling.

The Jedi know the following as of the end of Attack of the Clones.

1. Dooku says there is some dude named Sidious somewhere controlling some number of unknown senators through unknown means. This is functionally worthless, and also an intelligence tip coming from a dude trying to kill them.

2. Jango said he was hired by another guy than the guy they thought hired him, which could mean anything from Sifo-dyas using an assumed name to hiring an agent to recruit the genetic template to Jango lying to Obi Wan to any number of other things.

3: Maul was (probably) the apprentice Sith, so there's another one out there. The most reasonable candidate is probably Dooku.

Based on this information, going "nope, we're going to abandon our duty to protect the Republic, go chase after a person we have very little reason to think actually exists and on whom we have no actual intelligence, while one of the most powerful militaries in the galaxy tries to kill us and the other at best won't care if they do and at worst will line us up and shoot us for treason" is completely insane. Not even pants on head insane, this level of madness has left pants far, far behind.


One of the oddities of (particularly modern) narrative fiction is that it is extremely success biased, to the point where the heroes failing is a downright rarity. I think this creates an odd sort of audience bias where the heroes must succeed simply because they are the heroes and success is what heroes do.

But the Jedi fail. Since heroes succeed, this must mean either they aren't actually the heroes (a line of thought that requires ignoring like 95% of the explicit text and framing of the movies) or they must have made some big huge obvious mistake. That makes them stupid, and so again not actually the heroes, even though plenty of heroes do much, much stupider stuff and get away with it because the author is on their side. The Jedi lose because they're in a tragedy. That's it. They don't behave flawlessly, but they generally act rationally based on the available information. In a lot of ways they act far more reasonably than plenty of successful heroes in other stories who get away with some next leve moronic stuff just because the heroes always succeed.

So what's the point of a story about failure like this? It isn't to outfox the screenwriter and find the One Weird Trick that can save the day. Instead i think it's to vicariously experience loss. But to do that one had to accept that loss is possible and inevitable, which implies success is not always possible. That's not a comfortable notion, but it's the core of the story.

What I think makes Revenge of the Sith to be a powerful and effective story is that it is precisely about both the inevitably of loss and the redoubled pain of trying to escape it by any and all means, of thinking success is always possible. Whatever its flaws of pacing and writing, it is laser focused on this, and the entire story is structured around it. Because that's Anakin's great flaw, he cannot accept loss and thinks he can always prevent it, and whatever he does to prevent it is necessarily justified by its inevitable success. Which is of course untrue, because Anakin fails in everu possible way. That's the lesson of the PT. Don't be so afraid of loss that you would do any mad thing to avoid it.

Don't be Anakin.

[GloatingSwine]

The Jedi lose because they're in a tragedy. That's it. They don't behave flawlessly, but they generally act rationally based on the available information. In a lot of ways they act far more reasonably than plenty of successful heroes in other stories who get away with some next leve moronic stuff just because the heroes always succeed.

A tragedy isn't just when the hero loses. A tragedy is when the hero inadvertently brings about his own downfall, usually by the very effort he makes to avoid it. Oedipus flees Corinth to Thebes in order to avert the prophecy that he would kill his father and marry his mother, not knowing that he was brought from Thebes as an infant.

Without the sting of irony it's not a tragedy it's just unfortunate.

[Saph]

But the Jedi fail. Since heroes succeed, this must mean either they aren't actually the heroes (a line of thought that requires ignoring like 95% of the explicit text and framing of the movies) or they must have made some big huge obvious mistake. That makes them stupid, and so again not actually the heroes, even though plenty of heroes do much, much stupider stuff and get away with it because the author is on their side.

Case in point: the protagonists of the Sequel Trilogy.

What I think makes Revenge of the Sith to be a powerful and effective story is that it is precisely about both the inevitably of loss and the redoubled pain of trying to escape it by any and all means, of thinking success is always possible. Whatever its flaws of pacing and writing, it is laser focused on this, and the entire story is structured around it.

I think this is a very good point, and it's the reason that people still find the prequels sufficiently interesting that we're having a long debate about them a full 20 years after their release. It's hard to imagine that 20 years from now, the Star Wars fandom (or whatever's left of it by then) is going to care even a quarter as much about the decisions made by Rey or Ahsoka or whoever the next designated Star Wars protagonist ends up being.

[ecarden]

A tragedy isn't just when the hero loses. A tragedy is when the hero inadvertently brings about his own downfall, usually by the very effort he makes to avoid it. Oedipus flees Corinth to Thebes in order to avert the prophecy that he would kill his father and marry his mother, not knowing that he was brought from Thebes as an infant.

Without the sting of irony it's not a tragedy it's just unfortunate.

It certainly can be, but even under that definition, it still works, because it's the tragedy of Anakin's pride, hubris and inability to accept loss/limits which destroy him and everything he held dear.

[GloatingSwine]

It certainly can be, but even under that definition, it still works, because it's the tragedy of Anakin's pride, hubris and inability to accept loss/limits which destroy him and everything he held dear.

I didn't say it didn't work as a description of the films. I mean that it also necessitates the flaws in the Jedi Order of the time (and most particularly their inability to handle even a nine year old with attachments and help him find enlightenment*) be part of the reason that they fall.

Anakin it's obvious how his fall is tragic, the actions he takes to cling to what he loves destroys those things and nearly destroys him.

But the fall of the Jedi is not just his tragedy, it's their own.

*Imagine how scuppered the Emperor's plan would be if Anakin had Uncle Iroh instead of Yoda and Obi-Wan. Most well adjusted jedi ever.

[Errorname]

The idea that the clones would just turn on a dime, to use American parlance, and start shooting every Force-sensitive person within range is beggar's belief. It would never cross their minds that it was the explicit purpose of the clones to do just that and the clones themselves are in the same boat. They would die for the Jedi they serve. The idea that a chip can force them to kill those same Jedi is horrifying for the clones that learn about it, which is why there are whole arcs dedicated to some clones finding out about the chips and removing them.

Again, the first one of those arcs has a Jedi get fragged by a clone who enters into a fugue state because his chip malfunctioned

Jango was a gun for hire. From the Jedi perspective he was hired to provide a genetic template and then hired for other things. He goes back to Kamino for his son and because he doesn't believe he can be traced, but his arrogance is his downfall and leads the Jedi to the clone army.

That he was hired by both sides of the conflict is noteworthy. That the same dude who fathered and trained the entire Republic army was also a hired gun for the Separatists is unusual, not inexplicable for a merc to be double dealing but still strange, to the point where I don't know why Dooku and Palpatine did it.

[Infernally Clay]

It certainly can be, but even under that definition, it still works, because it's the tragedy of Anakin's pride, hubris and inability to accept loss/limits which destroy him and everything he held dear.

It's actually simpler than that. Anakin's greatest flaw is he puts himself first. It's the reason he loses everything. Even when his own mother dies, he just leaves her body there while he proceeds to kill everyone in the camp so that he feels better. It's always about him. He never really thinks about putting others first, sacrificing what he wants for the benefit of others or because it's the right thing to do.

In fact it's only when Anakin puts Luke before himself, that selfless act of protecting his son despite the cost to himself, that I think he understands where he went wrong near enough his entire life.

Of course we must remember that it isn't Anakin's fault he turned out that way. When he was a kid, before he joined the Jedi Order, he was very selfless and compassionate about others. It may have been a little on the nose but he really was a sweet and innocent kid. We can only assume that Palpatine twisted the boy over the course of the ten years between The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, raising him to believe he was better than the other Jedi and they were just holding him back out of fear they could not control him if he ever realised his true potential.