Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

[Mechalich]

I'm curious: can anyone point to a discussion on the Internet between 2002-2004 or so with people saying this?

Because lots of people on this thread have been repeating over and over again that the clone army is an obvious trap, and that the Jedi are all drooling sub-80 IQ morons for not immediately seeing that and backing out of the war immediately. But the thing is, I don't actually remember anyone saying that back in 2002-2004. I remember lots of talk about Anakin, and Padme, and the war, but I don't remember a single person saying "well, obviously the clone army are going to be mind-controlled to massacre the Jedi". Maybe they were out there, but if so, they were lost in the crowd.

The Internet in 2002-2004 was nothing like what it became. That's pre-youtube, pre-social media, and before modern Google. It was impossible to hear most fan speculation. I do recall, in the fragmentary fandom at the time that I was exposed, that there was quite a lot of speculation that there was going to be some kind of big twist, because if you looked at the timeline and added up the years it was very clear there had to be one in order for the Empire to come into being from basically the moment the Clone Wars ended. I recall my reaction to 'Execute Order 66' in theaters being 'aha! so that's how he did it!' I also recall being very impressed, because Order 66 is pretty much the only good plot twist in the entirety of the PT and I, and most of the Star Wars fans I knew at the time didn't expect Lucas to manage pulling something like that off.

It was only well after the prequels came out, and all the Star Wars fans had the benefit of hindsight, that I started seeing people claiming that, well, obviously things were going to turn out that way, anyone could have seen that. So to be honest, this mostly feels to me like Monday morning quarterbacking.

It's not just hindsight, at lot of it is additional data. Until RotS came out, it was entirely possible that the Jedi would be destroyed by simply losing the Clone Wars. I mean yeah, that made no sense from a timeline perspective, but a number of things, like Obi-Wan having seemingly died of old age by ANH when the character would only have been in his fifties at that point didn't work with the timeline so that seemed like something Lucas would screw up. The audience doesn't even learn the Republic and Jedi are winning (have won, actually, in strategic terms its all over but the mop up) until the whole Battle of Coruscant set piece is over, something like thirty minutes into the film. Until that information comes out the framing of what's going on is extremely open.

After all, it's quite easily to rewrite Revenge of the Sith to accommodate the Jedi withdrawing from the war. Palpatine just uses their inaction to stir up public opinion against them, waits for them to gather in some convenient location, then orders the clones to massacre them. Everything ends out playing pretty similarly, just with fewer action scenes. And if that happens, I absolutely guarantee you that a whole bunch of people right now would be saying "man, the Jedi were so stupid to withdraw from the war like that, if they'd actually been willing to get their hands dirty and fight alongside the clones they would have been much closer to the action and would have seen what was going on in advance, giving them the opportunity to back out of the war was an obvious trap, they were complete idiots to fall into it".

And if the Jedi Order gathered together in some convenient location where they could all be massacred at once that would be a really huge error on their part now wouldn't it?

As I mentioned before, for Palpatine's plan to work he has to kill >90% of the Jedi Order in one stroke. Any scenario whatsoever that exposes the Jedi Order to that possibility requires the order to carry the idiot ball. And that's fine, it is acceptable that the Jedi Order made a bad decision to put all their eggs in one basket that resulted in what would have been partial destruction becoming total destruction. However, having done that, it is extremely valuable to supply an in-universe reason as to why the Jedi made such a catastrophic decision.

The monolith example I advanced above makes sense to me in this regard. Yoda gets to the clones first, the clones call him a General (which is in AotC) and he decides to roll with it. After all, he is personally unsuited to join special forces operations and he has hundreds of years of experience running a large organization, making him probably more qualified than any dozen other Jedi combined to lead a clone legion. The rest of the Order, being naturally deferential to Yoda, the beloved teacher of literally all of them, goes along with this. Dissenting views either simply don't exist or are pushed aside.

[Saph]

It's not just hindsight, at lot of it is additional data. Until RotS came out, it was entirely possible that the Jedi would be destroyed by simply losing the Clone Wars. I mean yeah, that made no sense from a timeline perspective, but a number of things, like Obi-Wan having seemingly died of old age by ANH when the character would only have been in his fifties at that point didn't work with the timeline so that seemed like something Lucas would screw up. The audience doesn't even learn the Republic and Jedi are winning (have won, actually, in strategic terms its all over but the mop up) until the whole Battle of Coruscant set piece is over, something like thirty minutes into the film. Until that information comes out the framing of what's going on is extremely open.

This is fair. The point I was getting at is in my experience, the same people who'll claim that something was obvious after the fact tend to have an absolutely terrible record with predicting things in advance. It's much, much easier to identify mistakes several years later, when you know the direction that things ended up taking, than it is to correctly call the best course of action when you're in the middle of things. So I'm much more inclined to cut the Jedi some slack.

As I mentioned before, for Palpatine's plan to work he has to kill >90% of the Jedi Order in one stroke. Any scenario whatsoever that exposes the Jedi Order to that possibility requires the order to carry the idiot ball.

This, though, I don't agree with. "The head of your government is an insanely powerful evil space wizard who's in the middle of executing an insanely complicated centuries-spanning plot to take over the galaxy and purge everyone in your order" is not the kind of threat that you can reasonably expect people to keep at the forefront of their minds. Admittedly, this is Star Wars, where you DO have insanely powerful evil space wizards who DO occasionally manage to pull off these kinds of gambits, so it's not impossible. But it's very, very out-there. Realistically, you'd expect that the only people within the Jedi Order taking that kind of threat seriously would be (a) survivalist nuts, (b) crazies/extreme eccentrics, and (c) the extremely wise and perceptive, with the (c) group being the smallest by a long way.

[Infernally Clay]

This, though, I don't agree with. "The head of your government is an insanely powerful evil space wizard who's in the middle of executing an insanely complicated centuries-spanning plot to take over the galaxy and purge everyone in your order" is not the kind of threat that you can reasonably expect people to keep at the forefront of their minds. Admittedly, this is Star Wars, where you DO have insanely powerful evil space wizards who DO occasionally manage to pull off these kinds of gambits, so it's not impossible. But it's very, very out-there. Realistically, you'd expect that the only people within the Jedi Order taking that kind of threat seriously would be (a) survivalist nuts, (b) crazies/extreme eccentrics, and (c) the extremely wise and perceptive, with the (c) group being the smallest by a long way.

What Palpatine did wasn’t an insanely complicated centuries-spanning plot, though.

Yeah the Sith had been working towards their revenge against the Jedi for a thousand years but it doesn’t appear as though there were any specific plans carried from master to apprentice. I would imagine, given the nature of the Sith, each Sith Lord figured their plan to take out the Jedi was better than whatever plan their predecessor had.

As far as we’re aware, Palpatine didn’t actually have a clue about the clone army Sifo-Dyas had commissioned until Dooku found out about it and told him, after which they co-opted it and made it serve them. The whole Order 66 thing was as close to improvisation as you can get. You’re talking less than fifteen years from conception to execution. It’s a recurring theme of Palpatine’s - he sees an opportunity and takes it. He’s not some great schemer, he’s an opportunist. Even the war was, really, just Palpatine co-opting an existing movement (that of Outer Rim worlds seeking self-governance because the Galactic Senate sucked) and making it serve him, using what was already there to his advantage.

You can certainly attribute some of the problems the galaxy was having at the time to a nebulous grand plan by the Sith to slowly undermine the Republic and weaken the Jedi over many centuries, but honestly I’d say entropy was the bigger culprit. The Republic had existed for twenty five thousand years at that point. It was inevitable it would break down eventually. The Sith just had to be patient and speed the decay along. Nothing that refuses to change can survive that long without falling apart. This is true of the Jedi Order as much as the Republic.

[GloatingSwine]

We return to the simple truth that the Emperor, as presented in the OT, was not an insanely powerful evil space wizard. Sure he was a powerful evil space wizard but not insanely so. All it took was an unexpected attack in a moment of distraction to do him in, and he was undone by his combination of hubris and sadism that meant he had to be present to witness the final victory.

We aren't shown an Emperor who could have swept away a galaxy full of Jedi by main force, or an incomparable schemer who could outplot them. We're shown someone who is quite good at both things.

That means that in order for that guy to win, the Emperor as he was in Return of the Jedi, the Jedi had to have been ready for their fall.

[ecarden]

Gotta run to work, so fast responses. To Mechalich:

I disagree that clone commanders are more effective--I don't think the clone wars shows the Jedi leadership as particularly effective as leaders, but it certainly doesn't show clone commanders as better (outside deliberate betrayals like Umbara).

But more broadly, it doesn't matter. There's no version of events where the Republic follows that model (even without Palpatine, I doubt they would). If the Jedi refuse, they're replaced, not with Captain Rex, but with the Tarkins of the universe.

To Lord Raziere:

Putting aside what that does to the Jedi's long-term position and focusing solely on the galaxy, that means ignoring the CIS invasion and the billions of people it is enslaving/killing. The invasion of the Republic by the CIS is not some bloodless political maneuver that has consequences only for who has power, it is a bloody-handed invasion focused on doing so much damage that the Republic has no choice except to surrender.

[Lord Raziere]

I make no assumptions about the Jedi's intelligence, nor their knowledge of Palpatine's existence specifically, nor whether the trap is obvious or not. But what they DO know that is the Sith are THERE as per Phantom Menace: a Master and an Apprentice, the apprentice is dead. they don't know WHO the master is but they do know they're trying to do something, or they wouldn't have sent Maul at all. They've known for ten years. They know their ability to see the future is clouded. these are not normal conditions. Furthermore they do know that these clones have been ordered by Syfo-Dyas ten years ago.....about the same time Anakin joined the Jedi Order, Maul was killed and Qui-Gonn died. Hm. already a strange coincidence. and Obi-wan implies that the Jedi Council has some say about authorizing the creation of such an army and the Jedi Council never authorized it but it was done at the request of the Senate. A clone Army that shows up to help with a potential threat from secessionists....when the Confederacy of Independent Systems was established.... 24 BBY and the Battle of Naboo was 32 BBY, so the threat that the clones were made for wouldn't materialize for 8 years, and these clones which about ten years to make, they just so happen to be ready during Episode II, how strange and convenient. Furthermore, there is assassins being sent after the Senator most against going to war against the Separatists. Almost as if someone wants a big galaxy-wide war.

this is the picture that the Jedi are working with during Episode II before it all goes down. Now one must ask oneself: what really benefits the Republic here? and who benefits from a big war? lets be honest: the Confederacy of Independent Systems don't benefit from war just as much as the Republic doesn't benefit. CIS is a new government, they got people to rule and even if they are all money grubbing jerk corporations war is still incredibly costly like "drive nations to bankruptcy" costly, a vast galaxy spanning war? thats a good way to end up in debt, reabsorbed or driven to ruin. and even PREPPING for war's expensive, especially if it never comes, produce all those battle droids and if you don't use them they'll just sit in a ship somewhere gathering dust, they got be pretty sure that it will be fought for it be worth the money or they will have wasted it. Thing is, Obi-Wan/Anakin finds out about the Droid army and acts as if its a surprise they're making it, so it'd have be pretty recent for them to start production on the scale needed, so the CIS haven't been producing droids on war time scale for two years, the Republic would catch onto them doing stuff to fortify themselves and whatnot. No operation on that large of a scale remains secret for that long, its simply impossible. So......clone army for the Republic gets ready around the same time the droid army starts going into production for CIS. awfully strange coincidence. the timing's too tight. almost as if someone wants the Jedi to learn these facts in rapid succession.

At this point, doing anything that accelerates or causes the war should be last thing anyone should do. there is clearly something strange going on, someone planning this even though they don't know who or why. it could be....
-some neutral corporation or wealthy person running wanting to profit off both sides, but such war profiteering tends to be opportunistic rather than planned.
-a CIS politician relying on their superior force of arms? No, even if there is no clone army, no centralized military force, attacking the Republic is freaking insane, while the Republic as a whole no longer has an army, individual planets has no end of local forces, the Republic if they're willing to resort to clones would be willing to resort to a draft to get their army, and/or hire mercenaries to fight, would they be fighting some toy-super-soldiers carved from marble and given the fighting skills of god? no, but that sort of thing doesn't really matter that much in war anyways- you'd be surprised what militias, guerilla forces and other such forces are capable of doing, and if your opposition's normal trooper is the B1-battle droid, having a normal dude with a blaster rifle as yours might still actually be an improvement. would it end up being more a conflict of quantity vs. quantity and a horrible meat grinder for both sides? yes, but I doubt it'd be a CIS sweep, if Naboo is any indication. that and democracies are great at turning their peaceful industrial capacity into military capacity when needed.
-the Hutts? nah, not their style or scale. they're mafia bosses not political masterminds
-The Sith? Probably! Sith love conflict and making people kill each other and what better way to weaken the galaxy so that their own Sith empire can come in and conquer things when everyone's exhausted from fighting the Separatists? sith empires appearing to invade from unknown space are a thing that has happened before in Star Wars, multiple times even. but we can't search all the unknown regions of space, and to manipulate all this, someone's got to be on the inside
-so, where would someone pull all the strings? the Senate. there has someone supporting the creation of the military after all. its vague but its on the right track. Palpatine wasn't part of the people supporting it, but investigating the Senate wouldn't be a bad place to search for an agent for some sith empire on the edge of space they'd assume is doing is. enough investigation would probably turn up something sooner or later.

(by the way I found this poster for the Republic's military creation act, its pretty telling:)

Spoiler

Show

If the Jedi Council weren't a military, then powerful parts of the Republic seemed to think otherwise.

[pendell]

There seems to be a notion that its morally superior not to command the clones? Not to fight with them? Isn't that exactly backwards? If you believe (and there's a strong argument for this) that they are engineered child slave soldiers and you know (which the Jedi absolutely do know) they are going to be engaged in combat, which you cannot stop, isn't fighting alongside them and doing your best to ensure they are not needlessly sacrificed, do not needlessly sacrifice themselves, and are protected to the best of your ability a far superior course of action than going 'well, this whole business is very shady, better for me not to be involved'? That strikes me as a massive abdication of moral responsibility, not an example of living up to the moral obligations you might expect of a Jedi.

I'm going to respond to this with a Terry Pratchett quote from Jingo:

“History was full of the bones of good men who'd followed bad orders in the hope that they could soften the blow. Oh, yes, there were worse things they could do, but most of them began right where they started following bad orders.”

For that matter, when we discuss what the Jedi should and should not have done, Pratchett's novel Jingo is at the forefront of my mind. In that novel, just as in the prequels, the city of Ankh-Morpork is preparing for war against the Empire of Klatch. Sam Vimes, the commander of the city watch, and his officers are part of the city machinery which, if they just follow orders and procedures, will cause the city to go to war and they will be caught up in it.

Well, for the nonspoilery bits, he and the officers neither follow the rush to war but neither do they simply check out and allow events to take their course from a safe distance. Instead, they solve the real problem.

Spoiler

Show

Specifically, they treat the starting of this war as a crime. While they do indeed constitute themselves as a regiment in the Ankh-Morpork army, they do not obey the orders of Lord Rust or of Vetinari himself, for that matter. Instead, they pursue a suspect who may have been part of the plot to assassinate the Klatchian ambassador. Eventually , with the aid of Vime's Klatchian opposite number and Vetinari himself , they avert the war by surrendering the island at issue.

An island which sinks back into the sea even before the fleet has returned to the city.

There are , in fact, two parallel stories tracked in multi-verse fashion, one in which Sam abandons duty for a higher calling, and pursues the perp, and the second where he Just Follows Orders and goes along with bad orders in the hope of softening the blow. The first is the main track of the story. The second alternate universe sees the death of Sam Vimes and everyone he knows as the Klatchian army invades and sacks Ankh-Morpork.

This, then, is my answer to what the Jedi should have done: To do what Sam Vimes did. To ignore the outer diplomatic shell game of Republic versus Confederacy and concentrate on the real problem which is the root cause of all their troubles: The Sith which they know are still active and functional. Yet they were distracted from investigating them by the clone wars.

Oh, sure, they should probably have some Jedi participating in the clone war, first to avert evil and secondly to throw off suspicion. But the war is symptom, not cause, and in allowing it to absorb almost all their attention they allowed the Sith to work almost unhindered, manipulating both sides from the shadows. That should have been their primary focus, not the window dressing.

The entire war, just as the novelization says, was one big Jedi trap. And by getting caught up on the side of the Republic, the Jedi were caught in it. They should have been hunting down and eliminating the Sith, not taking his orders.


Doing what Sam Vimes did would make them "traitors" to the Republic. And they don't have a Vetinari to help them. Worst case, they find themselves on the run from the forces of both the Confederacy and the Republic. However, even in the worst case, that's what happened anyway. At least this way they have a chance to run away and save something of the Order, as opposed to being isolated in ones and twos all across the galaxy, then shot in the back by soldiers specifically created and trained for that specific task.

It's like Haley tells us in OOTS -- the point of a shell game is not which cup the ball is under. That's just misdirection. By picking a shell at all, you're falling for a con artist's ruse because the basic premise of the game isn't true at all; the ball isn't under ANY of the three shells. And that's what the Clone War and the Clone Army are; a gigantic shell game to distract attention. No matter what option you pick, you're going to lose. The correct answer, as both Sam Vimes and Haley will tell us, is not to play at all.

ETA: As far as genocide and "blaming the victim" goes, the Jedi Council are not sheep waiting to be slaughtered. Of course there are plenty of bad people in the galaxy who would love to do all manner of terrible things, including wiping out the Jedi. It's their job to foresee these bad actors and forestall or stop them. It's a job they were trained and equipped for, yet it's a job they failed to do. So, yes, I have no problem assigning them a portion of blame for the failure. Sure, Palpatine's malice is the one who is truly to blame, but, as they said, "Sith Lords are their specialty". It's their job to stop the Sith, and it's a job they didn't do.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[warty goblin]

The Jedi are investigating the Sith. The only Sith they know about is Dooku, who also has a ginormous army and is attacking them. It isn't like they can just drop by and ask him some questions.

The only other data they have is Dooku's join with Sauron spiel to Obi- Wan, which is more or less true but also not exactly a credible source. And even if they do go all Sherlock Holmes on that clue, all Dooku says is that the dark lord controls hundreds of senators. That doesn't mean he's the chancellor, or even in the Senate. There's maybe a bad dude out there somewhere connected in a non-specific way to an undefined group of an indeterminate number of senators is not exactly a lead.

And the Clone army isn't as inherently suspicious as it might seem. Jedi have prophetic visions. A Jedi acting on those visions isn't weird, nor is the result of that action turning up in the nick of time. Once you have people acting on prophetic information things turning up just when you need them is probably kinda normal.

[Infernally Clay]

And the Clone army isn't as inherently suspicious as it might seem. Jedi have prophetic visions. A Jedi acting on those visions isn't weird, nor is the result of that action turning up in the nick of time. Once you have people acting on prophetic information things turning up just when you need them is probably kinda normal.

That’s a bit blasé, don’t you think? When asked whether or not Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas hired Jango to be the genetic template for the clone army, Jango’s exact words were “Never heard of him. I was recruited by a man called Darth Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden.”

Now I may be misremembering and perhaps the Jedi Council is as yet unaware Sith Lords go by the title of Darth (although I have no idea why this would be the case), but doesn’t this warrant some serious scrutiny? Jango’s story contradicts what the Kaminoans said and suggests the involvement of an unknown third party and if the Jedi Council isn’t daft they’d now at least assume Darth Tyranus is Darth Maul’s former master and that is a huge red flag.

edit ;; Actually I checked the script and, for whatever reason, the Jedi Council acts as though they don't know who Sifo-Dyas is and Mace Windu incorrectly assumes Darth Tyranus in fact Maul's apprentice. It's possible they just didn't want to admit that a second Jedi Master may have fallen to the dark side, but they were clearly aware of the strong possibility that a Sith Lord commissioned the clone army they were to use.

[Keltest]

That’s a bit blasé, don’t you think? When asked whether or not Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas hired Jango to be the genetic template for the clone army, Jango’s exact words were “Never heard of him. I was recruited by a man called Darth Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden.”

Now I may be misremembering and perhaps the Jedi Council is as yet unaware Sith Lords go by the title of Darth (although I have no idea why this would be the case), but doesn’t this warrant some serious scrutiny? Jango’s story contradicts what the Kaminoans said and suggests the involvement of an unknown third party and if the Jedi Council isn’t daft they’d now at least assume Darth Tyranus is Darth Maul’s former master and that is a huge red flag.

edit ;; Actually I checked the script and, for whatever reason, the Jedi Council acts as though they don't know who Sifo-Dyas is and Mace Windu incorrectly assumes Darth Tyranus in fact Maul's apprentice. It's possible they just didn't want to admit that a second Jedi Master may have fallen to the dark side, but they were clearly aware of the strong possibility that a Sith Lord commissioned the clone army they were to use.

Jango doesn't say Darth, just Tyranus. Very shortly after that they discover that Count Dooku is almost certainly one of the Sith, but don't make any progress identifying the second one until the end of the war 3 years later. Im not aware that they are able to make any connection between Dooku and Tyranus (or even that Tyranus is a Sith) until much later in the war, when they discover what happened to Sifo-Dyas.

ETA: Whatever version of the script you looked at does not seem to be what made it into production. Mace Windu simply says that the Jedi Council did not authorize the creation of the clone army, but Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi who was thought to be dead. Obi-wan also says that the Senate was the origin of the request for the Clone Army 10 years ago.

[warty goblin]

That’s a bit blasé, don’t you think? When asked whether or not Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas hired Jango to be the genetic template for the clone army, Jango’s exact words were “Never heard of him. I was recruited by a man called Darth Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden.”

The line in the movie is "a man called Tyranus," no Darth. Until Jango shows up palling around with Dooku, the Jedi have no link between the clone army and the Sith. And at that point they are already in command of said army, which Kamino is saying was commissioned by a Jedi Master. Also they're at war with the only Sith they actually know exists and Jango is no longer available for comment due to being dead. What leads are they supposed to follow up here?

Now I may be misremembering and perhaps the Jedi Council is as yet unaware Sith Lords go by the title of Darth (although I have no idea why this would be the case), but doesn’t this warrant some serious scrutiny? Jango’s story contradicts what the Kaminoans said and suggests the involvement of an unknown third party and if the Jedi Council isn’t daft they’d now at least assume Darth Tyranus is Darth Maul’s former master and that is a huge red flag.

They also don't know Darth Maul is named Darth Maul. They don't even know Dooku is Tyranus.

I'm pretty sure this isn't the canon version anymore, but I always thought the movies were implying that Dooku/Tyranus commissioned the army under the name Sifo-Dyas, an at that point conveniently dead Jedi master. But because Kamino is at the arse end of nowhere, the Kaminoens never figure out they're working for an imposter of a dead dude. Because Lucas SW seems to operate without paperwork and the entire universe has like two security cameras, there's no way to check this, and anyway they have a war to fight, the army is fantastically loyal, and there's no trail to follow except one name that links to nothing. Sure it's murky ad suspicious but at that point everything is murky and suspicious, and there's bigger, more immediate problems.

(Yes, the writing in AoTC is a mess if you look at it at all. I still find the movie a lot of pulpy fun because the plot details aren't the point.)

[Infernally Clay]

Jango doesn't say Darth, just Tyranus. Very shortly after that they discover that Count Dooku is almost certainly one of the Sith, but don't make any progress identifying the second one until the end of the war 3 years later. Im not aware that they are able to make any connection between Dooku and Tyranus (or even that Tyranus is a Sith) until much later in the war, when they discover what happened to Sifo-Dyas.

ETA: Whatever version of the script you looked at does not seem to be what made it into production. Mace Windu simply says that the Jedi Council did not authorize the creation of the clone army, but Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi who was thought to be dead. Obi-wan also says that the Senate was the origin of the request for the Clone Army 10 years ago.

I s’pose it makes sense to take out the Darth bit and we should be glad that they did, otherwise the Jedi Council would’ve looked pretty silly, but that doesn’t really change that the Council knew someone other than Sifo-Dyas hired Jango and we can’t really ignore that Jango was on Dooku’s pay roll until his death. The whole thing is just deeply suspicious. Given that Sifo-Dyas could not afford an army of clones, you would assume this Tyranus was footing the bill and you’d want to know why, surely?

I'm pretty sure this isn't the canon version anymore, but I always thought the movies were implying that Dooku/Tyranus commissioned the army under the name Sifo-Dyas, an at that point conveniently dead Jedi master.

As far as I recall, Sifo-Dyas sat on the Jedi Council and received visions of a terrible conflict the Jedi would need an army to survive. He asked the Council to agree to commission the army, but they basically called him crazy and kicked him from the Council so he did it by himself behind their backs. Sifo-Dyas confided as much to Dooku, unaware he was already in cahoots with Palpatine, and Dooku then arranged for his fellow Jedi to die so he could take over the army and use it against the Jedi.

[Keltest]

I s’pose it makes sense to take out the Darth bit and we should be glad that they did, otherwise the Jedi Council would’ve looked pretty silly, but that doesn’t really change that the Council knew someone other than Sifo-Dyas hired Jango and we can’t really ignore that Jango was on Dooku’s pay roll until his death. The whole thing is just deeply suspicious. Given that Sifo-Dyas could not afford an army of clones, you would assume this Tyranus was footing the bill and you’d want to know why, surely?

Sure, but it was 10 years ago and Jango is missing something fairly important for him to be confessing anything. There isn't exactly a lot of trail to be following. On top of that, 10 years ago Valorum was chancellor, not Palpatine, and Valorum wasnt afraid to go around the backs of people to get things done, like when he sent the Jedi to resolve the Naboo crisis while the Senate was deadlocked.

ETA: Obi-wan seemed to be saying the Senate footed the bill for the Clones.

[KorvinStarmast]

For escarden: no.
However, this is neither the time nor place to argue about the nuance and meaning of a term. That leads to mod red ink in the end.

I thank you for, in your reply to me, elaborating more on the thought you put behind that chosen usage.

Cheers.

About the Clones:
I vaguely remember an allusion to Boba Fett's father being one of the clone soldiers, or one of the templates that soldiers were formed from, but it's been so long that I am not sure I am remembering that correctly.

[Mordar]

The moral obligations I expect of a Jedi have nothing to do with starting or perpetuating a war for any government, no matter how good that government is. their moral obligations should be to question their authority figures, not to obey them unthinkingly. To make sure that the Senate isn't so corrupt that a Sith can pass as one of them without anyone batting an eye. To make sure that all the worlds on the Outer Rim have no reason to go to war in the first place, to help in need before it gets to the point that it got. To respect life, not to end it. To take the responsibility of standing against these clones being bought or used in combat at all, to protest and do everything in their power so it does not happen, to end slavery not half-heartedly perpetuate it by pretending that they're helping by being kinder owners. Not to fight on the frontlines but to help the refugees fleeing from it, to provide aid and care to those who suffer from the frontlines, to not think with their lightsabers but with their empathy, to be more than stoic protectors that slice down what gets in the Republics way.

Why would you place them as the unchecked moral judge on the actions of the sentient and duly elected representatives of the member worlds? Are you suggesting the should act outside the bounds of established law and order to root out and destroy corruption - as judged by them and only them, it appears - while also being apparently limited to asking the bad Senators nicely to not be bad anymore? And in the downtime administrate a system of no less than a hundred thousand worlds in such a fashion that they all feel equally blessed to be part of the Republic, right? And, again, to support law and order in the face of violent actors by suggesting they nicely stop blasting the innocent Rimworlders, because certainly using violence against them doesn't respect their lives, and using "Jedi mind tricks" is clearly the worst kind of enslavement (actually, that part isn't disingenuous...that's probably the scariest evil available to Jedi) - or I guess they could absorb the blaster fire themselves, though that isn't effective for too many repetitions. Minimize the suffering of the refugees of war once they are already refugees might not be the most efficacious way to limit the suffering brought by war, but I suppose it is the easiest to sleep with. The only way to be successful in that charge is to be omnipotent, omniscient outsiders above and separate from all the other beings in the Republic such that the series would need to be called Star Chamber Wars.

Their moral obligation as a group is to do their job the best they can, within the confines that are imposed on them by law and by their own individual compass, and to protect as many of their fellow members of the Republic as possible. The are in a nearly impossible bind and that is the price they pay as protectors in (not of) a democracy. Some seem to ascribe to a morality that says it is far better to limit the suffering, the damage, the pain of others rather than polish their halos. Violence is not their first, second or third choice...but when it comes it must be prosecuted to the extent necessary to end the violence as quickly as possible and with as little collateral damage as possible.

This is how democracies form and how they stand, and the shackles they place on their protectors by those that are actually responsible for maintaining the democracy. This is how this democracy fell - Amidala says the words herself- not because the Jedi failed but because the duly elected Senate voted for it with thunderous applause.

Because whether or not they make good warriors who protect people is irrelevant. Any person with a blaster and the training can do that. A Jedi, someone who is supposed to be in tune with a cosmic force that binds all living things together, that senses the disturbances in the Force that indicate life itself being snuffed out or abused, who can foresee events in advance and are supposed to deliberate on the best course of action- the standards for them are higher. Its not they don't do a good job of being a soldier or warrior or protector, but that these the wrong job for what they are supposed to believe and what they are connected to. The Jedi Council are beings who sense the end of lives, who feel it as disturbances in the Force and their decision is to jump head first into it? to cause it? to knowingly perpetuate and inflict the suffering they feel in every living being? That doesn't sound like any life-valuing religious person I've ever heard of. Wheres the Jedi leading peaceful protests? wheres the Jedi refusing to harm a single life for any reason? wheres the Jedi helping struggling communities and raising money for charities?

No, not any person...but I agree with the point that they didn't need to lead. They are not soldiers.

Don't forget that cosmic force that binds all living things together also seems to be just fine with those living things eating other living things, and independent of predation all seems to be just fine with the termination of corporeal life. Force also seems to be inclined to Balance, but I'm not sure if that is just a construct of the people most moved by the Force.

They did deliberate. They were outmaneuvered. I agree that there was a solution that would limit pain and suffering *from the war* - that is, of course, to help Sidious. Of course, that leaves no Republic, but there would be less loss of life. Peaceful protest? Issues with that in a melodrama aside...to what end? To fight a losing propaganda war? To make themselves feel better about not having power to impact the actual suffering that is occurring, or to prevent what even non-Force sensitives could potentially anticipate in the dissolution of democracy? Protest absent power (please do not read that as "power = military might") is an exercise to make the protestor feel involved and self-important. Bake sales to offset the cost of sheltering displaced persons. Better by far in my opinion to limit the persons displaced first.

Imagine if you will, the Jedi instead decided to protest against the clone army at all points, refused to lead them and advocated to do nothing but free them, to give them good lives despite the looming war. Palpatine would either be caught off guard or think the Jedi are being foolish and that they're leaving the Republic vulnerable and open to attack. He'd be thrown off his plan and if they push hard enough, he might have to push back to get the clone army to make sure his plan goes through, and the more he pushes for it, the more he exposes his special interest in the clones until it gets suspicious as to why he is pushing for this plan when you could just....not have a slave army and push harder for peace and having good relationships with the Separatists at all costs, because why should the Jedi care if the Republic is less powerful or has to give in to whatever demands the Separatists want in whatever treaty they work out? its not the Jedi's job to make the Republic powerful or the only polity in the galaxy, there is no indication that Force cares about the Republic specifically, its not special in the Force's eyes. Palpatine would eventually expose himself trying to get his plan to go through or lose power from harping on it so much, pair that with some news media to smear him for advocating for a slave army and his chance to start a war and make his power grow further through the emergency powers would be shot. Palpatine's plan relies on the Clone Wars happening, on the fear of it making people willing to give up more and more power to him over time during it for his propaganda about security so that when he announces his imperial ascension its to applause, stopping the war from happening, no matter what the cost is, stops him.

That, is the moral responsibility I expect of the Jedi.

A noble and laudable sentiment, and it would make it harder for Sidious to kill so many Jedi in a fell swoop, so it does present a tiny glimmer of greater hope [so long as the Force isn't deterministic, of course, and since it built all this for the chosen one to balance, hard to say...] that a core of Jedi will be available to help overthrow the Empire...if they're allowed to do that. But Palpatine doesn't have to hard sell the Clone army to the Senate or the vast majority of the members of the Republic. The blockade of Naboo, the violence of the droid army, those won the hearts and minds. He would no more need to harp on it then he would the need for people to eat. The stage was set, the Senate - not all corrupt, by a wide margin - played the only parts they could play. A media campaign about the slave soldiers...that are the only hope standing between the core worlds and the marauding droid hordes of the plutocrats. Yeah, I know which side of that messaging would be the easier sell. Particularly when one side has the will and means to simply snuff out anyone on the other side. Absent any other power, it does provide a chance. It makes it harder for the elected official to get re-elected (we hope, right?) and could lead to censure by the ruling body, but that window isn't even a window here. It is an equally strong portion of starship-grade bulkhead. And the chance to start a war has nothing to do with the Clones...they provide the chance to fight back against the army that already started the war (of course, also controlled by Sidious).

Before that point? Ceding systems to the CIS as a means of peaceful resolution feels a lot like a story we've seen before. Particularly when the CIS wasn't any more of a paragon of goodness than the late stage Republic. Impact would be negligible too, since the Trade Federation portion would never be satisfied with a few systems, and the success of those systems coming independent would simply fan the flames and increase expectations.

The Jedi were wildcards, but even they were mitigated. Their only sure solution was to break with everything they espoused and to slice what stood in the Republic's way...the duly elected Chancellor and the ardent backers of the same in the Senate. I can't imagine that would be well viewed by either you or I. I suppose they could also sequester themselves - if they are a religion of the Force, "get thee to the nunnery" and absent themselves from the political, the corporeal, and wait to be absorbed back into the Force. Sidious would probably come visit himself upon them at some point, but it would reduce the suffering area under the curve in the immediate term. Of course, the long term lower grade suffering of a repressive regime would well-exceed that of the actual war.

If this were a story where we didn't already know ends with the Empire, the best course of action to preserve the most life, limit the most suffering is pre-emptive assassination. That is the best math, and something I would never want to read/watch in my heroic fiction. The moral victory provided by fully detaching from the Republic (and humanity as a whole, really) is, IMO, grossly outweighed by the moral failure of being someone who could have done something to save lives and chose not to because it might involve conflict. Something much more interesting to read about, but not in a heroic fiction either.

- M

[dancrilis]

As you can tell by the fact that the Jedi fight him, almost to the last child, while the Senate cheers him and agrees to proclaim him emperor.

That is a good point - if the Jedi hadn't attacked Palpatine and been willing to work with/for him as they had been for the previous decade and just continued to take orders from the senate then not only would Palpatine have no justification to issue Order 66 he might not even have wanted to, if the Jedi were more loyal to the systems of the Republic they might have avoided a lot of hardship.

[Keltest]

That is a good point - if the Jedi hadn't attacked Palpatine and been willing to work with/for him as they had been for the previous decade and just continued to take orders from the senate then not only would Palpatine have no justification to issue Order 66 he might not even have wanted to, if the Jedi were more loyal to the systems of the Republic they might have avoided a lot of hardship.

I... can't tell if you're being facetious or not. There is no version where Palpatine obtains power and the Jedi get to just carry on. Palpatine is corrupt, and knows it. The Jedi are one of the groups who is invariably going to stand against that corruption, thats why he gets rid of them. And that's not counting the fact that he orchestrated a lot of the conflicts of the past decade plus.

[warty goblin]

I s’pose it makes sense to take out the Darth bit and we should be glad that they did, otherwise the Jedi Council would’ve looked pretty silly, but that doesn’t really change that the Council knew someone other than Sifo-Dyas hired Jango and we can’t really ignore that Jango was on Dooku’s pay roll until his death. The whole thing is just deeply suspicious. Given that Sifo-Dyas could not afford an army of clones, you would assume this Tyranus was footing the bill and you’d want to know why, surely?

Jango was on Dooku's payroll at time of death. He's also a gun for hire, so all that proves is that Dooku hired him at some point.

And money is one of those places where poking at Star Wars is a bad idea, because it's never really discussed or matters beyond a very small number of very specific but non-detailed problems. It basically seems to operate on a wealth level RPG system where you just have some level of money in an abstract sense, and unless there's an interesting character problem involving it (like say a Hutt crime lord putting a bounty on you during chargen) it never matters. Which is pretty typical for movies because except for accountants people generally find accounting boring. Like, you think people whinged about there being too much politics in the PT, just imagine if AotC stopped the action for a 3 minute discussion of how the clone army was funded through shell corporations or whatever.

As far as I recall, Sifo-Dyas sat on the Jedi Council and received visions of a terrible conflict the Jedi would need an army to survive. He asked the Council to agree to commission the army, but they basically called him crazy and kicked him from the Council so he did it by himself behind their backs. Sifo-Dyas confided as much to Dooku, unaware he was already in cahoots with Palpatine, and Dooku then arranged for his fellow Jedi to die so he could take over the army and use it against the Jedi.

That was roughly my understanding, thanks.

[Errorname]

That is a good point - if the Jedi hadn't attacked Palpatine and been willing to work with/for him as they had been for the previous decade and just continued to take orders from the senate then not only would Palpatine have no justification to issue Order 66 he might not even have wanted to, if the Jedi were more loyal to the systems of the Republic they might have avoided a lot of hardship.

Palpatine is a sith lord, an avowed enemy of the Jedi order and their complete annihilation as a force in the galaxy is one of his primary goals, so there's no real scenario where Palpatine wins and the Jedi don't get purged.

But if Palpatine doesn't have that ideological commitment to destroy the Jedi, he'd probably be willing to tolerate the Jedi's continued existence so long as they were useful to him. That's not a good thing though. Palpatine is evil, the Empire is evil. The Jedi remaining loyal to the state as it turns into a monstrous dictatorship would not be their survival, it would merely be a different sort of destruction. And for all my cynicism about the Jedi, I don't think they'd be willing to do that. Maybe the younger generation who have only known war might be willing to accept it, but the old masters wouldn't.

[pendell]

For escarden: no.
However, this is neither the time nor place to argue about the nuance and meaning of a term. That leads to mod red ink in the end.

I thank you for, in your reply to me, elaborating more on the thought you put behind that chosen usage.

Cheers.

About the Clones:
I vaguely remember an allusion to Boba Fett's father being one of the clone soldiers, or one of the templates that soldiers were formed from, but it's been so long that I am not sure I am remembering that correctly.

Boba is an unaltered clone of Jango -- no shortened lifespan, no modification for greater obedience. He is , for all intents and purpose, an exact genetic copy of Jango. All his skill, all his intelligence, all his surly inability to play well with others. This was Jango's fee for his work for the Kaminoans -- money, and also the son he could otherwise never have.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[gbaji]

Certainly there's a middle ground. But I'd distinguish between the 'consequences as a result of their own choices and actions' and 'events which occurred subsequent to their actions/choices.' (ETA: hey, we could call this but-for and proximate causation, if we wanted to) For it to be a consequence (in any interesting sense) it needs to be related to the nature of the choice and a, at least theoretically predictable result. Like, if I jaywalk and get hit by a car and die, I don't deserve to get hit by a car, but it is still a consequence of my action and I certainly knowingly put myself at risk by jaywalking.

If I jaywalk and get hit by a meteor and die...well, it's still a result of my decision to jaywalk that I'm dead. If I hadn't jaywalked, it would have missed me...but to say that's a consequence of my actions is...odd.

Sure. But let's adjust things a bit. You jaywalk, and as a result a driver swerves to avoid you, causing a crash with injuries and damage caused. Then, later while continuing to walk along (jaywalking even), you are hit by a meteor and die.

Does the fact that you were the victim of a meteor hit mean that we cannot criticize your jaywalking and point out that this put other people's lives at risk? My issue with much of the idea that we should not examine the actions or decisions of the Jedi because they were killed later on to fall into that category.

We can certainly talk about (and criticize even) their recruitment and training methods. Those have good or bad points that stand without having anything to do with their later deaths from Order 66.. Similarly, we can dicsuss the Orders increasing intermingling with the Republic and Senate. The implications of that change over time had other good/bad effects aside from the one connection to the eventual Order 66 outcome. My point is that suggesting that we should not examine, discuss, and even criticize things that the Jedi did because of what happened to them later is just kinda silly.

And the mistakes the Jedi make (and they do make them) are so massively disconnected from the results (Palpatine activated Order 66 and murders them all--almost) that I simply don't see the connection. The key action Palpatine has taken is to complete the corruption and downfall of the Republic. As you can tell by the fact that the Jedi fight him, almost to the last child, while the Senate cheers him and agrees to proclaim him emperor.

Right. They are disconnected. So we should have no problems discussing one without being accused of "victim blaming", right?

Like Krypton isn't about the Kryptonians, it's about what it means to Clark. And similarly, revealing some Kryptonian dirty laundry isn't about 'what did the Kryptonians actually think/feel/believe?' it's about 'what does this revelation mean to Clark?'

There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but it feels gross to me. The PT does better, because it is about the tragic fall of the Republic and the Jedi Order...which makes all the focus on 'what was really wrong with the Jedi Order' feel sort of beside the point? ETA: And, though I'm sure it is not the intent, feels like it is attempting to undermine the tragedy of that, which is what prompts a lot of the heat in these conversations, I think.

See... I don't. I think it would be absurd to assume that 100% of the members of Kryptonian society were fine upstanding people. We kinda have to assume that there were Kryptonian criminals, and corrupt politicians, and a whole host of everything else as well.

I guess I flip this around. I don't understand the need/desire to paint people as blameless for *anything* because something horrible happened to them later on. To me, those are not related things. Also, I think that it makes those people not "real", but caricatures that we're holding up for some really strange and unrealistic ideological concept.

I personally find storylines which examine such groups/people in a more realistic way to be much much more satisfing and enjoyable than treating them as some kind of monolithic "we're victims so we're perfect" society. And... not to be obvious, but where else does someone like Zod come from then?

The most important fact surrounding the Jedi Order's relationship with the Clone Army is that the clones don't need the Jedi to command them. They are perfectly capable of serving under non-clone officers or commanding themselves and in many (most?) cases this is actually a better option than having a Jedi General command them since the Jedi have no command experience or training and aren't better than a generic replacement. Further, a Jedi Knight who is not saddled with the responsibility of command is free to operate as a Force-wielding special operations beast, which will allow them to contribute to the war more effectively.

The SW universe is rife with things that don't work if you do the math. And this is one of them. While we're primarily shown Jedi characters leading whole armies of Clone troopers and holding general/commander ranks, the reality is that most of the Jedi would/should have operated exactly as you just mentioned. They would have been embedded in/with small special units of the Army, and used for special assaults/missions. In fact, we see them doing exactly this all the time in TCW. Well, except that we see the same general ranked Jedi then magically "demoted" to working small op missions when the story requires it. The reality is that there should have been some Jedi commanding, and a whole lot of other Jedi knights actively fighting with these troopers on the ground where they would do the most good. And honestly, I've always kinda assumed that was the case.

We've seen too many scenes of Jedi and Troopers working incrediblly well when used in this way to think that the Jedi mostly just sat around commanding whole battles. And we see this in the initial scenes in AoTC as well. The Jedi immediately attach themselves to what look to be squad level units and lead them directly into battle on Genosis. I would assume that this was the norm, and folks like Kenobi and Skywalker were the rare exception.

Not sure if that would have saved them at all though. We're still talking about the same total number of Jedi, spread out amongst the same number of Clones. But yeah... SW math is a thing.

Imagine if you will, the Jedi instead decided to protest against the clone army at all points, refused to lead them and advocated to do nothing but free them, to give them good lives despite the looming war. Palpatine would either be caught off guard or think the Jedi are being foolish and that they're leaving the Republic vulnerable and open to attack. He'd be thrown off his plan and if they push hard enough, he might have to push back to get the clone army to make sure his plan goes through, and the more he pushes for it, the more he exposes his special interest in the clones until it gets suspicious as to why he is pushing for this plan when you could just....not have a slave army and push harder for peace and having good relationships with the Separatists at all costs, because why should the Jedi care if the Republic is less powerful or has to give in to whatever demands the Separatists want in whatever treaty they work out? its not the Jedi's job to make the Republic powerful or the only polity in the galaxy, there is no indication that Force cares about the Republic specifically, its not special in the Force's eyes. Palpatine would eventually expose himself trying to get his plan to go through or lose power from harping on it so much, pair that with some news media to smear him for advocating for a slave army and his chance to start a war and make his power grow further through the emergency powers would be shot. Palpatine's plan relies on the Clone Wars happening, on the fear of it making people willing to give up more and more power to him over time during it for his propaganda about security so that when he announces his imperial ascension its to applause, stopping the war from happening, no matter what the cost is, stops him.

I think you are saying this with the 20/20 hindsight of having already seen how things worked out. If the Jedi had refused to fight with the Clones, Palpatine would have protested. But this would not have at all been suspicious. The Jedi serve the Senate and are "protectors of the Republic". The Chancellor of the Senate expecting them to help with a war is not at all unusual, nor an indicator of Sith activity on his part. It's an indicator of a leader wanting to keep his government intact and to win a war he's fighting and being pissed at a group who could help that war effort, but are choosing to sit it out instead.

So no. This would not be suspicious at all.

The other problem is that the Jedi believed that the Sith were behind the Separatists side of the conflict. Dooku fought against three Jedi (including Yoda) at Genosis. He's clearly a leader of the Separatists, and weilds a red blade. That means that he has embraced the Dark Side (whether full on Sith or not). So.... They know there are Sith around. They know Dooku is a Dark side user now. The only source they have for anything going on in the Senate is... wait for it... Dooku. So odds are they're not going to believe him. They may suspect there's more to what's going, on but they absolutely know that the Separatists are not "good guys" in this (or at least the folks leading things). The Jedi would have to oppose the Separatists and Dooku whether they did so beside the Clone Army or not. The fact that the Clone Army is *also* fighting the same Separatists and Dooku makes it really akward to do this and *not* coordinate with that army.

I mean, we could have two completely separate groups both working for the Republic and both fighting the Separatists, but that just seems like a really silly and inefficient way of doing things.

That, is the moral responsibility I expect of the Jedi.

I'm not sure I get where you are coming from. The moral responsibility I expect of the Jedi iis to defend the Republic and fight against the Separatists. Because the Separatists are being lead by a powerful Dark Side user. Seems pretty straightfoward to me.

Jango was on Dooku's payroll at time of death. He's also a gun for hire, so all that proves is that Dooku hired him at some point.

Correct. Jango is specifically mentioned to be a bounty hunter and mercenary, and Kenobi is told that while he lives there due to his work as template for the Clones, he's free to come and go as he wishes and does his own thing. He's been there for 10 years. It's reasonable to assume he's taken a lot of jobs over that time period that have absolutlely nothing to do with the Clone army.

I think a lot of people assume that the Jedi should have made certain connections and assumptions about the clone army because we, the audience, are clued in to things that the Jedi are not. We know all along that Siddious is Palpatine. We know all along that Dooku is working for Siddious. We know all along that the Dooku is Tyranus. That last bit is key because that tells us that the Clone army was either completely planned by Dooku or was taken over by Dooku. But the Jedi council do not know this fact at all. They have no clue who this "Tyranus" person is. It could be anyone.

The most logical assumption would be that Dyas worked behind the scenes with someone in the Senate to fund the Clone Army, and since then both of them have died. This fits everything that was known about him (including him being a bit of a rebel and willing to go behind the council's back *and* having strong visions of the future that he could not ignore). Leaping from the facts they know to "it must have been secretly funded by the Sith Lord behind everything!" is a leap that can't be justified without knowledge that the Jedi council simply do not have (and yeah, Dooku's Sith name is a big one).

This is also why that episode in TCW is so signficant (and why Palpatine has a near heart attack over it). The need to cover up Sifo Dyas' death is absolutely critical to concealing his and Dooku's connection to the creation of the Clone Army. And, just as with many other bits going on, the audeince is clued into what's going on, and why this is super significant, but the Jedi themselves fail to find anything conclusive which might warn them about the true purpose of the Clone army.

[Infernally Clay]

Jango was on Dooku's payroll at time of death. He's also a gun for hire, so all that proves is that Dooku hired him at some point.

And money is one of those places where poking at Star Wars is a bad idea, because it's never really discussed or matters beyond a very small number of very specific but non-detailed problems. It basically seems to operate on a wealth level RPG system where you just have some level of money in an abstract sense, and unless there's an interesting character problem involving it (like say a Hutt crime lord putting a bounty on you during chargen) it never matters. Which is pretty typical for movies because except for accountants people generally find accounting boring. Like, you think people whinged about there being too much politics in the PT, just imagine if AotC stopped the action for a 3 minute discussion of how the clone army was funded through shell corporations or whatever.

Honestly one of the funniest developments in the Star Wars fandom as a whole is that back in 1999-2005, when the prequel movies came out, there were endless complaints about trade negotiations and the emphasis on politics and corruption and all that, because really all anyone wanted to see was more lightsaber duels, and yet here we are in 2024 and it’s the exact opposite. Now the fans don’t want lightsaber duels and it is widely proclaimed by them that the best Star Wars material has no Jedi in it and folks want the prequels to have had a greater emphasis on the politics and the economics of the fall of the Republic.

I think we got enough information myself. The bureaucrats controlled the Senate and the wealthy corporations controlled the bureaucrats. Palpatine campaigned on getting rid of the corruption in the Senate, but all he really did was make the corruption work for him. The wealthy corporations no longer controlled the bureaucrats, he did, because he was the most powerful person in the galaxy and money could not buy that. By the time anyone realised what Palpatine had done it was too late, he had transferred basically all of the power the Senate had to himself, and the more power he accrued the more politicians sucked up to him. Democracy died with thunderous applause and the Republic with it.

That’s enough, or at least I tend to think so.

[Errorname]

The SW universe is rife with things that don't work if you do the math. And this is one of them. While we're primarily shown Jedi characters leading whole armies of Clone troopers and holding general/commander ranks, the reality is that most of the Jedi would/should have operated exactly as you just mentioned. They would have been embedded in/with small special units of the Army, and used for special assaults/missions. In fact, we see them doing exactly this all the time in TCW. Well, except that we see the same general ranked Jedi then magically "demoted" to working small op missions when the story requires it. The reality is that there should have been some Jedi commanding, and a whole lot of other Jedi knights actively fighting with these troopers on the ground where they would do the most good. And honestly, I've always kinda assumed that was the case.

For what it's worth, this problem of high level commanders doing menial grunt work is a pretty common one to Clone Wars and frankly kid's cartoons in general, it's hardly exclusive to the Jedi. Like the fifth episode of Clone Wars is rookies, and has Rex and Cody, who both command thousands of men, doing remote outpost inspections alone with no support staff, because that's what needs to happen for the episode to work.

I'm not sure I get where you are coming from. The moral responsibility I expect of the Jedi iis to defend the Republic and fight against the Separatists. Because the Separatists are being lead by a powerful Dark Side user. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

That the Jedi feel a duty to defend the Republic as a state rather than the Galaxy as a whole is what leads to them running in the vanguard while Sheev and his cronies reorganize it into a tyrannical empire.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sure. But let's adjust things a bit. You jaywalk, and as a result a driver swerves to avoid you, causing a crash with injuries and damage caused. Then, later while continuing to walk along (jaywalking even), you are hit by a meteor and die.

The term for that is karma. To badly misquote Clint Eastwood: blame's got nothing to do with it.

The bureaucrats controlled the Senate and the wealthy corporations controlled the bureaucrats. Palpatine campaigned on getting rid of the corruption in the Senate, but all he really did was make the corruption work for him. The wealthy corporations no longer controlled the bureaucrats, he did, because he was the most powerful person in the galaxy and money could not buy that. By the time anyone realised what Palpatine had done it was too late, he had transferred basically all of the power the Senate had to himself, and the more power he accrued the more politicians sucked up to him. Democracy died with thunderous applause and the Republic with it.

GL was not subtle in his messaging.

[Mechalich]

That the Jedi feel a duty to defend the Republic as a state rather than the Galaxy as a whole is what leads to them running in the vanguard while Sheev and his cronies reorganize it into a tyrannical empire.

This error by the Jedi Order is one that I feel is among the easier ones to justify. The Jedi clearly believe they should defend democracy - Obi-Wan says this outright in RotS. That's reasonable enough. They also believe the Republic is a democracy - Obi-Wan says that too. Now, importantly, the second part is fundamentally incorrect. By the time TPM's opening crawl rolls, and almost certainly decades earlier, the Republic has ceased to operate as a democracy as has become an oligarchy that maintains the trappings of democracy as a means of appeasing the public. This sort of government is quite common and while forum rules preclude listing examples from the real world, they are not hard to find.

However, there is an important difference between the Star Wars galaxy and our own. In Star Wars, the Republic is the only government even trying to be a democracy. Every other polity is an authoritarian, corporatist, or oligarchic system (or in the case of the Hutts, all three at once, the Hutts are complicated). These can be benevolent - Lando serves as 'Baron Administrator' of Cloud City and seems to be highly invested in doing right by its several million residents - but he's still a corporatist autocrat, he literally won control of the whole city gambling.

Framed in this context the Jedi clearly consider the Republic a singular light surrounded by shadows consuming the rest of the galaxy. There is no one else to fight for. Some Jedi, in their more self-aware moments, even recognize that the Republic has fallen, but they keep fighting as hard as they possibly can in the hope of generating conditions suitable for reform (this isn't completely ridiculous, it even works, briefly, in SWTOR).

The Jedi Order does, eventually, recognize that the Republic is too far gone to save through the mechanisms of democracy. That's why they plan, and then throw, a coup. And that almost works (even if you subscribe to the 'Palpatine is playing with Mace' school of thought, 'in the room with weapons in hand' is pretty close to success when it comes to assassination plots).

This, intriguingly, leads to the argument that the Jedi Order should have acted earlier. For example, Yoda/Mace could have used the outbreak of the Clone Wars to seize the Chancellorship for himself - during the previous round of Sith Wars the Chancellor was always a Jedi, something that holds in Disney and Legends. There's an interesting AU scenario there.

[Sapphire Guard]

The primary failure that the Jedi Order have is that they don't have meta knowledge.

Ahsoka is presented as the better alternative, but she seems to have no particular ideological difference from the Jedi in practice. Like, one of the great failures of the Jedi is supposedly that they voluntarily lead Clones into battle for the Republic against a known Sith Lord not knowing that it's a trap.

Spoiler: Siege of Mandalore

Show

Ahsoka leads a republic army of Clones into battle againsta known Sith Lord not knowing that it's a trap, and is very upset that the Jedi don't follow her. She's super eager to do it and gets upset that the Jedi are not on board.

It's not portrayed as a fault or a negative, though, despite being the same decison the Jedi made. What is the difference?

She doesn't have amu alternatives, ideas, or even a different ideology. She says 'I am no Jedi' for a while but looks and acts exactly like a Jedi, down to hanging around at the Jedi temple and using Huyang as her taxi driver. Her ideology such as it is, is 'complain about the Jedi, without any ideas of her own.

That's where a lot of this criticism falls.

Don't fight in the war runs into the eternal 'requires Dooku and Palpatine to co-operate ' problem. If they say no, that doesn't work. For so,me reason people seem to think the Jedi saying they won't join the war prevents' Dooku and Palpatine from sending people to attack them anyway?

The alternatives presented require Dooku and Palpatine to be completely passive. Which wouldn't happen, so they're built on...nothing.

Sure. But let's adjust things a bit. You jaywalk, and as a result a driver swerves to avoid you, causing a crash with injuries and damage caused. Then, later while continuing to walk along (jaywalking even), you are hit by a meteor and die.

Okay, but most of what people are saying talks about how the action (jaywalking) 'led to their fall' the meteor, which is drawing a direct link between things that aren't linked.

The primary driver of the Fall of the Jedi is that Palpatine wants them dead. No matter what action they take, thta is still true, so he will try his hardest to make sure the meteor hits them regardless of where they are or what they do or don't do.

[ecarden]

On the broader topic of Sifo-Diyas, Dooku and the clone army, I will point out that, from the perspective of the Jedi Council, it is really, really, really easy to view the clone army not as an obvious trap, but rather as providence and the will of the Force. A member of the Jedi Council predicted a coming war and insisted they prepare an army to fight it, he was disbelieved and left.

He went off to create exactly that army and his vision has now come to pass. The army he sought to create is perfectly positioned to accomplish his goal and the clear will of the Force in protecting the Republic from an invasion lead by a Sith. And they discover this because that very same Sith hires an assassin who Sifo-Diyas had previously hired to use as the base genetic model for that army!

It's easy with hindsight to say that this was planned, or should have raised red flags, but if I were a Jedi Master...that really looks like providence, not plot. We were wrong, but Sifo-Diyas's foresight has saved the Order and the Republic!

Sure. But let's adjust things a bit. You jaywalk, and as a result a driver swerves to avoid you, causing a crash with injuries and damage caused. Then, later while continuing to walk along (jaywalking even), you are hit by a meteor and die.

Does the fact that you were the victim of a meteor hit mean that we cannot criticize your jaywalking and point out that this put other people's lives at risk? My issue with much of the idea that we should not examine the actions or decisions of the Jedi because they were killed later on to fall into that category...[DELETED OTHER COMMENTARY TO ONLY FOCUS ON THE BIT I AM RESPONDING TO] They are disconnected. So we should have no problems discussing one without being accused of "victim blaming", right?

If you wish to discuss the flaws in the Jedi Order qua the Jedi Order, sure. If you wish to discuss the flaws in the Jedi Order qua it's role in it's own destruction...

Now, to be clear, victim blaming is not somehow beyond the pale of either debate or conversation, indeed it's a constant in human endeavor, and frequently healthy. The handful of times I have been a victim in my generally blessed life, spending some time thinking about how I got into that situation and how to avoid it in future has been quite a productive use of my time.

If people wish to criticize the Jedi Order, or for that matter claim that it was responsible for its own downfall or destruction, they are obviously free to do so. I think that's very silly and comes from an unwillingness to accept the fact that, as that great sage Captain Picard noted: "It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness; that is life.”

Now, obviously the Jedi Order was not perfect, nothing is.

Or, phrased differently, this:

Okay, but most of what people are saying talks about how the action (jaywalking) 'led to their fall' the meteor, which is drawing a direct link between things that aren't linked.

The primary driver of the Fall of the Jedi is that Palpatine wants them dead. No matter what action they take, thta is still true, so he will try his hardest to make sure the meteor hits them regardless of where they are or what they do or don't do.

Moving on.

See... I don't. I think it would be absurd to assume that 100% of the members of Kryptonian society were fine upstanding people. We kinda have to assume that there were Kryptonian criminals, and corrupt politicians, and a whole host of everything else as well.

I guess I flip this around. I don't understand the need/desire to paint people as blameless for *anything* because something horrible happened to them later on. To me, those are not related things. Also, I think that it makes those people not "real", but caricatures that we're holding up for some really strange and unrealistic ideological concept.

It's fine that it doesn't feel gross to you, I was writing about my reaction and I'll stand by it, especially as I expressly said there's nothing inherently wrong with it. De gustibus.

For that matter, when we discuss what the Jedi should and should not have done, Pratchett's novel Jingo is at the forefront of my mind. In that novel, just as in the prequels, the city of Ankh-Morpork is preparing for war against the Empire of Klatch. Sam Vimes, the commander of the city watch, and his officers are part of the city machinery which, if they just follow orders and procedures, will cause the city to go to war and they will be caught up in it.

[PLOT DESCRIPTION SNIPPED FOR SPACE]

This, then, is my answer to what the Jedi should have done: To do what Sam Vimes did. To ignore the outer diplomatic shell game of Republic versus Confederacy and concentrate on the real problem which is the root cause of all their troubles: The Sith which they know are still active and functional. Yet they were distracted from investigating them by the clone wars.

Oh, sure, they should probably have some Jedi participating in the clone war, first to avert evil and secondly to throw off suspicion. But the war is symptom, not cause, and in allowing it to absorb almost all their attention they allowed the Sith to work almost unhindered, manipulating both sides from the shadows. That should have been their primary focus, not the window dressing.

The entire war, just as the novelization says, was one big Jedi trap. And by getting caught up on the side of the Republic, the Jedi were caught in it. They should have been hunting down and eliminating the Sith, not taking his orders.

Doing what Sam Vimes did would make them "traitors" to the Republic. And they don't have a Vetinari to help them. Worst case, they find themselves on the run from the forces of both the Confederacy and the Republic. However, even in the worst case, that's what happened anyway. At least this way they have a chance to run away and save something of the Order, as opposed to being isolated in ones and twos all across the galaxy, then shot in the back by soldiers specifically created and trained for that specific task.

Yeah, Jingo's a great book...and totally reliant on Vimes's ability to get to the Prince and Rust and hold them at arrow-point. Power at a point, after all. But the Jedi believe they know where the Sith are, leading the CIS. They are trying, desperately, to get to them. The problem isn't that they have failed to realize that the Sith are the problem, it's that their only actual lead and target is surrounded by a giant army at all times and they cannot capture and interrogate him.

ETA: And Vimes's quote is certainly quite insightful, but I'll point out the reverse is true too. Nothing gets better if people of good conscience decide to just walk away.

ETA: As far as genocide and "blaming the victim" goes, the Jedi Council are not sheep waiting to be slaughtered. Of course there are plenty of bad people in the galaxy who would love to do all manner of terrible things, including wiping out the Jedi. It's their job to foresee these bad actors and forestall or stop them. It's a job they were trained and equipped for, yet it's a job they failed to do. So, yes, I have no problem assigning them a portion of blame for the failure. Sure, Palpatine's malice is the one who is truly to blame, but, as they said, "Sith Lords are their specialty". It's their job to stop the Sith, and it's a job they didn't do.

I'll point you back to the noted sage Captain Picard. It's a task they fail at. Whether that is blameworthy is a different question.

[runeghost]

I certainly see the parallel and it works rhetorically...but not logically. Vader doesn't turn on Palpatine in Episode 6 because Palpatine is killing someone who is helpless and not resisting. Palpatine has, by this point, killed billions of people who are helpless and not resisting. Vader turns on Palpatine because Palpatine is about to kill his son, which simply isn't true in the Episode 3.

Now, you could also interpret it as Luke showing Vader what a Jedi should be, while Mace fails--but I think that's a stretch. Vader's line after all isn't about how it's wrong to kill Palpatine, but that he, Vader, needs Palpatine. Which is also no longer true by Episode 6.

But it does work in Episode 3.

Mace looks down his lightsaber at Palpatine, turns to Anakin and says, "I've become as wrong as he is" and drops his lightsaber.

What now? If Palpatine kills the weaponless Mace just as Mace tells Anakin that murder is wrong, Palpatine is going to lose his hold on Anakin, and his plans will go downhill from there. But if he orders Mace arrested, what then? Even if he officially dissolves the Jedi order, Anakin is not going to go slaughter Kenobi and the younglings at this point. Sure, Palpatine isn't immediately removed from power, but the "Sith Lord" secret is out. And if he tries going behind his "trusted young friend"'s back, Anakin (aided by Obiwan and Padme) is going to figure it out, and then the cat is out of the bag.

Sure, maybe, Palpatine throws much of the Council in prison and officially dissolves the Jedi order. The war is over. There's no more need for an Emperor. There's no wholesale destruction of the Jedi. And there are dark rumors about him. At best, Palpatine now has a much shakier Empire, and much stronger foes.

[Errorname]

On the broader topic of Sifo-Diyas, Dooku and the clone army, I will point out that, from the perspective of the Jedi Council, it is really, really, really easy to view the clone army not as an obvious trap, but rather as providence and the will of the Force. A member of the Jedi Council predicted a coming war and insisted they prepare an army to fight it, he was disbelieved and left

True, as long as you ignore that Jango Fett was also employed by the separatists and the Sifo-Dyas was confirmed dead well before the order was placed. There is enough information to work with that at least some people on the Jedi should have been suspecting that the Sith were playing both sides of the war.

[Mechalich]

But it does work in Episode 3.

Mace looks down his lightsaber at Palpatine, turns to Anakin and says, "I've become as wrong as he is" and drops his lightsaber.

What now? If Palpatine kills the weaponless Mace just as Mace tells Anakin that murder is wrong, Palpatine is going to lose his hold on Anakin, and his plans will go downhill from there. But if he orders Mace arrested, what then? Even if he officially dissolves the Jedi order, Anakin is not going to go slaughter Kenobi and the younglings at this point. Sure, Palpatine isn't immediately removed from power, but the "Sith Lord" secret is out. And if he tries going behind his "trusted young friend"'s back, Anakin (aided by Obiwan and Padme) is going to figure it out, and then the cat is out of the bag.

Sure, maybe, Palpatine throws much of the Council in prison and officially dissolves the Jedi order. The war is over. There's no more need for an Emperor. There's no wholesale destruction of the Jedi. And there are dark rumors about him. At best, Palpatine now has a much shakier Empire, and much stronger foes.

This might work out better, but there are a lot of contingencies.

In this scenario Palpatine will immediately turn on Anakin following killing Mace Windu. Palpatine almost certainly wins that fight. Anakin is too emotionally conflicted to fight Palpatine with the resolve necessary to kill him in that moment. Order 66 still gets triggered, Operation: Knightfall still purges the Jedi Temple (the clones will take more casualties without Anakin's help, and more Jedi will escape, but neither of those things makes a difference). However, when Obi-Wan returns and meets Yoda there will be no footage of Anakin murdering fellow Jedi on the cameras, leading to Obi-Wan and Yoda attempting to assassinate Palpatine together. They probably win that two-on-one (assuming Palpatine's visions haven't cleared enough that he anticipates this and evades confrontation by leaving the planet or something). Obi-Wan and Yoda aren't enough to take control of the Senate on their own of course, so Palpatine's faction - which has an overwhelming majority, votes in a new Chancellor who gets to serve as a de facto dictator for a few decades (a Tarkin-esque character most likely), but that is still a lot better than the Empire.

Alternatively, perhaps Anakin survives the confrontation. He is skilled enough to escape (or potentially to Force Palpatine into a temporary retreat). Order 66 still gets triggered and Operation: Knightfall still unfolds. Anakin likely retreats to the temple - there's nowhere else safe to go once Order 66 has been activated. If nothing else happens, he simply fights in the temple's defense. Now, he almost certainly dies doing so, because Palpatine would (rightly) prioritize Anakin's death in this situation, but that would allow many Jedi to escape, including, potentially, several powerful ones since Anakin is personally responsible for the deaths of at least two Jedi Masters: Cin Drallig (the guy he's shown killing in the security footage) and Shaak Ti (killed offscreen). Assuming a Jedi Master is choose to lead the evacuating younglings - perhaps Minas Velti, who was shown attempting to do this in Obi-Wan before being gunned down - that Master would be available to join Obi-Wan and Yoda targeting Palpatine, who absolutely goes down three-on-one.

Of course, unforeseen events could occur. In this scenario Anakin almost certainly tries to warn Padme as he flies back to the temple. She would, most likely, attempt to return to Naboo. Does Palpatine order her killed? If he does, he certainly has the resources to succeed, and if Padme dies because at Palpatine's order, well...all bets are off. Maybe the galaxy splits into a civil war between rampaging Sith Lords. Maybe Anakin charges into a Red Guard ambush and is killed with trivial ease. Who knows?

True, as long as you ignore that Jango Fett was also employed by the separatists and the Sifo-Dyas was confirmed dead well before the order was placed. There is enough information to work with that at least some people on the Jedi should have been suspecting that the Sith were playing both sides of the war.

There's also the very simple fact that Sifo-Dyas had no way to pay for the creation of a gigantic army (and fleet, the fleet is much more important and expensive). Neither the Kaminoans or Rothana Heavy Engineering took that order on credit.

However, the influence of the Force is important. TCW is quite explicit that the Jedi Council is incredibly suspicious of the Clone Army and the circumstances surrounding its creation, but that they trust the clones themselves because of what they feel regarding the clones in the Force. The clones are good men who for the most part like and admire the Jedi and would never betray them, and from the Force-based paradigm in which long-active Jedi operate where the Force informs every decision they make, that's good enough. And the Jedi aren't even wrong. The clones don't betray the Jedi, they just recieve new orders and follow them, and their minds have been modified that such a thing is simply how they operate. The Jedi fail to conceive of this as possible, but they don't know squat about bioengineering so that's a blind spot that makes sense.

This setup is a genuine stroke of genius on Palpatine's part. He understands the Jedi mindset sufficiently well to recognize that they will trust the clones due to the Force and they will discount other lines of evidence as less important. Additionally, it is the allies of the Jedi Order, such as the members of the Senate who work with them, who really drop the ball in terms of questioning the origin of the clones. The Senate really is just terrible throughout the PT.