Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

[Errorname]

It's still about getting things to happen without telling us why, or decisions being made which are objectively bad.

That's just Star Wars, the actual "war" bit has never been super cohesive. You could maybe bodge together a strategic overview of the Clone Wars that makes a degree of sense based on repeating locations to get a sense of the fronts and troop movements, maybe, and I'm sure someone has tried, but it's just not something that the franchise has ever cared about. It's all very loose and vibes based.

[Infernally Clay]

So here's the bedrock of my problem with the prequels - they never try to tell us that. At this point, the separatists haven't tried to separate, there is no war, presumably nothing illegal has been done. Everyone operates more on audience knowledge than character knowledge. We see the leaders of the bad guys there, we see the main characters there, so the Jedi and clones go there. There's no in-universe reason give in story for everyone ro show up there all of a sudden, having seemingly all sort of knowledge they should not have.

This might have been a valid argument in 2002 but it's now 2024 and they've since told us everything we need to know.

The Outer Rim was settled by people who wanted to leave the Core and Mid Rim systems behind, to strike out on their own and find wealth and opportunity on planets yet untouched by the Republic. Of course the Republic basically helped these people move to those systems and provided incentives to get people moving out there, because the Trade Federation successfully lobbied for it - and why wouldn't they? They owned the hyperspace routes these colonists would use and thus would make a hefty profit from all the natural resources being moved from the Outer Rim and sold in the Core Systems. It's a win win for both the Republic and the Trade Federation as long as the colonists in the Outer Rim keep the resources flowing.

Eventually systems in the Outer Rim wanted to leave the Republic because they didn't feel as though the Galactic Senate properly represented their interests. They felt the Republic was more interested in the wealth of natural resources as yet untapped out there, resources these sovereign Outer Rim systems asserted belonged to them and not the Republic. With rampant crime the Republic did little if anything to curb or address, the corruption of politicians who could easily cover their tracks because it's not like the Republic ever checked up on these things and the Jedi having long abandoned the Outer Rim, thousands of Outer Rim systems decided they had had enough and got together to leave the Republic. They wanted to govern themselves.

There's a whole arc in The Clone Wars about Outer Rim politicians who do not like that Dooku is in charge of the Separatist movement because they only ever wanted to secede peacefully and yet Dooku insists on this war and he basically elected his own Council with the banks and the arms manufacturers on it, special interest groups who obviously want the war to continue because of how profitable it is for them, while basically ignoring the elected politicians of the Outer Rim and making it impossible for them to contact the Republic Senate. A shrewd tactic to keep the war going since Palpatine was doing the same thing with the Galactic Republic, preventing the likes of Padmé Amidala from entering into peace talks.

That's really all you need to know. The Outer Rim colonies were extremely unhappy with the Republic long before Palpatine showed up and he took advantage of that. The Republic Senate was deeply corrupt and would never have allowed the Outer Rim colonies to secede without a fight, which Palpatine had Dooku use as a pretext for war as they played both sides against each other.

[InvisibleBison]

Like I said, as well, if the Jedi are worth 100~1000 battle droids, just mobilise 1000 more clones for each Jedi that's hanging back. If the Republic can't beat the Separatists without Jedi on the front lines that's a problem for the Republic. It was never the responsibility of the Jedi to win the war the Republic started when it refused the Outer Rim worlds the right to secede.

How would this work? There aren't huge numbers of clones sitting around not doing anything; all of the battle-ready clones are already fighting. And since it takes ten years to produce a clone trooper, you can't just make more to replace the Jedi.

No, I meant in the arena on Geonosis, not Order 66. Thats when the Jedi took command of the clones, to go rescue, well, themselves.

There are two problems with this argument. Firstly, there were only a small portion of the Jedi's strength at Geonosis in the first place. If they all were to die it would be a tragedy but hardly a death blow to the Order. Secondly, by the time the clones showed up almost all of the Jedi in the arena had already been killed anyway, so if losing those Jedi was a serious problem to the Order that problem mostly existed even though the Jedi took command of the clones.

[Infernally Clay]

How would this work? There aren't huge numbers of clones sitting around not doing anything; all of the battle-ready clones are already fighting. And since it takes ten years to produce a clone trooper, you can't just make more to replace the Jedi.

There were already millions of clones in active circulation and Kamino was apparently able to produce new clones in a matter of weeks, although they apparently preferred to take a little longer - up to a year - for the sake of the clone's mental stability. I don't really buy that every Jedi is worth a thousand clones, though, given that you usually only needed a dozen or so clones to kill a Jedi and it's not like every Jedi in the Order was out there fighting every day.

So let's say go down the middle and say Kamino needed one hundred clones for each Jedi that would no longer be fighting in the war and that, to cover about half the Jedi Order, they need an additional half a million clones. How many months would that take them, really? I think they'd manage.

[Tyndmyr]

The Outer Rim colonies were extremely unhappy with the Republic long before Palpatine showed up and he took advantage of that. The Republic Senate was deeply corrupt and would never have allowed the Outer Rim colonies to secede without a fight, which Palpatine had Dooku use as a pretext for war as they played both sides against each other.

Essentially, this is just making the Republic the bad guys, though.

Any relationship where one party is willing to engage in violence rather than let the other side walk away peacefully, they ain't the good folks.

In a setting where the Republic/Jedi are largely presented as good, that sets up a problem. They're unpopular, incompetent, and willing to do violence rather than let people be free. That's....the Empire. It's the same thing with a different color scheme.

Now, I'm not against that, both sides being evil is a perfectly valid setting choice(see also, Hunger Games), but I genuinely think that we are supposed to see the Jedi and Republic as good in the original trilogy, so that change is kinda rough. There's some whiplash there.

[Infernally Clay]

Essentially, this is just making the Republic the bad guys, though.

Any relationship where one party is willing to engage in violence rather than let the other side walk away peacefully, they ain't the good folks.

In a setting where the Republic/Jedi are largely presented as good, that sets up a problem. They're unpopular, incompetent, and willing to do violence rather than let people be free. That's....the Empire. It's the same thing with a different color scheme.

Now, I'm not against that, both sides being evil is a perfectly valid setting choice(see also, Hunger Games), but I genuinely think that we are supposed to see the Jedi and Republic as good in the original trilogy, so that change is kinda rough. There's some whiplash there.

The Senate was never portrayed as the good guys, though. In The Phantom Menace, there is blatant collusion between politicians and the Trade Federation and Naboo is left to fend for itself because of red tape and bureaucracy. In Tales of the Jedi, Dooku deals with multiple examples of corrupt politicians whose crimes go unpunished until he deals with them himself and it's apparently a bad thing when he does. One of Padmé's most famous lines is "so this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause" and she even asks Anakin if they've been fighting on the right side of this war.

I could mention more examples but, yes, the Senate in its final years was really no different to the Empire and this is an established problem the galaxy has - even after the Empire fell, the politicians that had served during the Imperial era were no better than the ones that ushered it in and that severely hampered Mon Mothma's attempts to establish the New Republic. All Palpatine really did was allow the politicians of the Senate to stop pretending otherwise.

It's not that the Republic were the bad guys, but the Senate absolutely was. Kinda like how the Jedi Order was largely fine but the Jedi Council itself had a lot of problems. Maybe Lucas just really didn't like the idea of a small group of people having a lot of power over many others and misusing it, either willingly or because of the misguided belief they're above reproach.

[ecarden]

I mean, the timeline from the perspective of almost everyone is:

Lots of negotiation, no actual war
Attempted assassination of a prominent proponent of peaceful negotiation (Senator Amidala)
Investigation reveals the CIS is creating/hiring a massive army, literally the largest in the galaxy
The Republic discovers the existence of another army which has allegedly been created for the Republic
The CIS captures and prepares to execute Republic investigator into the attempted assassination of a senator.
Jedi attempt a rescue which fails.
Jedi + Clones attempt a rescue which succeeds.

The notion that there would have been a war absent Dooku and Sidious's actions seems entirely unproven to me. Amongst other things, neither of the actual nominal parties attempts to arm themselves and basically has to have an army and war forced upon them.

[InvisibleBison]

There were already millions of clones in active circulation

Yeah, and they were all busy doing other important things. There were no available clones in reserve to take over for a hypothetical mass Jedi withdrawal from combat.

and Kamino was apparently able to produce new clones in a matter of weeks, although they apparently preferred to take a little longer - up to a year - for the sake of the clone's mental stability.

I'd like to ask what your sources are for this information. I checked the Wookiepedia page on clone troopers, and it doesn't say anything about being able to produce them in a matter of weeks; it pretty clearly says that it took ten years to make a clone trooper.

[Peelee]

This might have been a valid argument in 2002 but it's now 2024 and they've since told us everything we need to know.

Did they release special editions I'm unaware of? Because i specifically said "with the prequels".

It's me, buddy. I am all about Star Wars. I have over 150 of the novels, encompassing Legends and canon. I'm in the 501st, with multiple costumes. I promise you, I'm aware of all the post hoc explanations. That does nothing to address that i feel that the trilogy was horribly done and the fact that it needed post hoc explanations to start with online bolsters that.

Nothing that comes out after the prequel trilogy means that it wasnt a problem in that trilogy. If i write a book and you say "this part doesn't really make sense", sure, i can say that the canon webcomic that has 50 readers explains it, but the webcomic existing doesn't negate that it doesn't make sense in the book.

[Saph]

Also it's a tragedy and they lost. We don't really have a lot of big budget tragedies anymore. This means that the only frame anybody has for tragedy is remembering something about tragic flaws from not paying attention in high school. And it's already really attractive to pick at the Jedi, and the notion that you can do everything right and still get obliterated is deeply uncomfortable so the Jedi have to be flawed. Nevermind that not all tragedy is built around tragic flaws, and if anybody has a tragic flaw it's Anakin. The movies repeatedly show this, he wants control over everything because he has no ability to process loss. Which is also an uncomfortable sort of flaw, because it suggests there are moral limits on what one should do for loved ones.

That's a pretty good explanation, actually. Might explain why I've always found the PT interesting in a way that most action movies aren't. "Heroes do the right thing and still lose" isn't a very common storyline in modern cinema.

Did you not see how the Jedi Council was explicitly antagonistic towards Anakin, the Byronic hero the first six movies were ultimately about?

Uh, no, I mostly saw the Jedi bending over backwards to accommodate him. They break their own rules to let him into the Order, give him training and opportunity beyond what 99% of the galaxy can ever dream of, and generally make a good-faith attempt to treat him as one of their own. Anakin repays them by trying to murder every single one of them, up to and including the kids. It's not Anakin who comes across as the sympathetic one in this story.

[Errorname]

Essentially, this is just making the Republic the bad guys, though.

Yeah, that's sort of the Clone Wars in a nutshell. They don't fully commit to having the Separatists be direct precursors to the Rebels and they're mostly portrayed as bad guys in the Lucas run stuff, but the line between the Republic and the Empire is very thin, and the fact that the Jedi were actively involved in this with only minor grumbling speaks poorly of their character.

[Mordar]

People with higher Knowledge (Star Wars) please help...

Re: Using the clones

Wasn't this a classic fork? Maybe a double fork? Sidious set this up well, especially if we allow for writers-less-brilliant-than-their-villain. It doesn't even reach Xanatos Gambit level.

Sidious maneuvers the Trade Federation and creates a legitimate threat to the Republic. This pressures the Republic to move to wartime footing and (as is always the case) consolidate more authority in an executive. Also pushes and nudges the Jedi into an active role in an area they say (and believe) they do not want to be...soldiers, and the only line of defense.

Giant droid army now in play...meager (How/why? Because they've been throttled?) Republic forces not up to the task. Desperate times.

Discovery of a clone army, prepared by someone maybe bad, maybe less bad...certainly not an optimal source, but...without this army, Republic loses.

With this army, the obvious/overt threat can be beaten. Without it, overt threat wins (particularly since the consolidated power wants that to be the case).

Jedi assume leadership of the army, they may be able to win out. But the army was corrupted with something no one could have reasonably conceived of - hardwired programming. That works because it bypasses the extremely limited Jedi prescience because the actors do not know they are about to act.

So...

Fork #1 (Dispose of Republic/Jedi): Jedi take the army or Republic loses. If Jedi/Clones win, Order 66 cripples Jedi. If Jedi/Clones lose, Sidious still controls Trade Federation and Jedi still dead.

Fork #2 (Manage Trade Federation): Jedi don't take the Clones, TF wins. Jedi continue to wither/suffer attrition, Republic on brink of collapse...Sidious decapitates Trade Federation/separatists, activates clones. With perfect knowledge of opposition, Federation/Separatists beat, Clone cross Rubicon, Caesar Palpatine named Emperor. Jedi don't take Clones and somehow stall out Federation/Separatists, then Sidious relies on the Anakin Initiative, plays a longer game, crumbles Jedi while decapitating Federation and then has both a Droid and a Clone army at his command.

So if the Jedi do or do not take the Clones, and if the Federation wins or does not win, Sidious has a winning play. The only way out is Anakin being delayed 15 seconds longer...or a lucky shot destroying his fighter in one of the big space battles.

Sidious isn't perfect, but the plan is elegant in its simplicity. Jedi take the Clones or don't, they still lose. Federation beat by Clones or not, they still lose. There are other points of failure - getting the Senate to give the thunderous applause was also not a sure thing - but the plan is reasonable and makes sense in universe for its audience. The fight is 100% determined on Coruscant, not in space or Naboo or Kamino or Mustafar. The true battle is long over by the time we get to start watching the movies, because Sidious escaping notice and rising to the point he can execute his plan is the victory, not the finals moves around the chessboard. Only Windu almost upsets the pieces.

- M

[Infernally Clay]

Did they release special editions I'm unaware of? Because i specifically said "with the prequels".

It's me, buddy. I am all about Star Wars. I have over 150 of the novels, encompassing Legends and canon. I'm in the 501st, with multiple costumes. I promise you, I'm aware of all the post hoc explanations. That does nothing to address that i feel that the trilogy was horribly done and the fact that it needed post hoc explanations to start with online bolsters that.

Nothing that comes out after the prequel trilogy means that it wasnt a problem in that trilogy. If i write a book and you say "this part doesn't really make sense", sure, i can say that the canon webcomic that has 50 readers explains it, but the webcomic existing doesn't negate that it doesn't make sense in the book.

This isn't an e-peen contest and your derision towards the prequels really has no bearing on this particular topic either. If you're projecting your disdain for those movies onto what I'm saying because I'm pointing out that a lot of effort was put into fixing the prequels and they did a pretty fantastic job of it, then what's the point of any of this interaction? There's no honesty there at all. You just want to take out your frustrations on me and I'm not into that, sorry.

It's not Anakin who comes across as the sympathetic one in this story.

Which is a weird thing to say considering Anakin is sympathetic. The prequel movies might not have done a particularly great job of getting it across but Lucasfilm has been rehabilitating his character for the last nineteen years and Anakin has been the archetypal Byronic hero ever since the first season of The Clone Wars way back in 2007. It isn't really until Ahsoka that we see Anakin has overcome that inner conflict and found some semblance of peace by accepting both the good and the bad that he did.

Yeah, that's sort of the Clone Wars in a nutshell. They don't fully commit to having the Separatists be direct precursors to the Rebels and they're mostly portrayed as bad guys in the Lucas run stuff, but the line between the Republic and the Empire is very thin, and the fact that the Jedi were actively involved in this with only minor grumbling speaks poorly of their character.

I believe the Rebellion even uses Separatist tech, further supporting the fact that the Rebellion grew out of the remnants of the Separatists. It makes sense, of course. Those worlds would have resisted the Empire just as much as they resisted the Republic, but without the banking clans and the arms dealers their equipment would have been pretty lacking.

[Peelee]

your derision towards the prequels really has no bearing on this particular topic either.

When the topic is the prequels, as my post clearly indicated it was, then it is directly relevant. I said i don't like the prequels because X. You said that my complaint was not relevant. Your assertion was wrong. Now you're trying to say "well that doesn't matter". If it didn't matter, then why did you try to engage with it like it did?

At this point it seems like you're trying to negate whatever i say just because. Which, I'll admit, is at least engaging, unlike when i asked "how did the Jedi antagonize Anakin" twice only to receive no answer. But if i say "X didn't explain this well" and you say "Y explained it so your complaint is bad", and I say "yeah dude i kmow about Y, and Z, and A and B and..." and you say "this isn't about how much extra knowledge we have", it really seems like you're just not addressing my points and just trying to take potshots. Poorly, at that.

I'm done trying to talk to you about this. Which is probably a good thing, one less person to question how you see a fascistic, genocidal character as sympathetoc.

[Mechalich]

Giant droid army now in play...meager (How/why? Because they've been throttled?) Republic forces not up to the task. Desperate times.

The Republic has no army. More than that, it specifically has a law forbidding it from having an army. The opening scene in AotC is of Padme arriving on Coruscant in preparation for a vote on the Military Creation Act, a proposed law that would allow the Republic to have an army again. Later in the film, when Jar-Jar gives his big speech to give Palpatine 'emergency powers' one of the provisions of said emergency powers is basically the military creation act, only with the ability to raise an army given to the Chancellor rather than the Senate.

Discovery of a clone army, prepared by someone maybe bad, maybe less bad...certainly not an optimal source, but...without this army, Republic loses.

With this army, the obvious/overt threat can be beaten. Without it, overt threat wins (particularly since the consolidated power wants that to be the case).

It's rather more complicated than this. The CIS (Separatists) controls ~20% of the known galaxy's territory, population, and economic output (which are not all in the same place). The systems loyal to the Republic control ~60%, and another ~20% remains nominally neutral (though the Hutts, by far the largest 'neutral' block will side with the Republic fairly early in the war, committing critical intelligence, though not any troops).

The Republic does have various planetary defense forces - we see these in TPM, in the form of Naboo's starfighter squadrons - and it could (and does, mostly offscreen) form them into an army and fight the CIS. They would, however, begin the war massively outgunned and be forced into crash military production and conscription to scramble to defend their core territories. Even without the clones (and, more importantly, the ships that come with the clones, since naval power is massively more important than ground troops in Star Wars) the Republic would still almost certainly win, because their economic potential dwarfs that of the CIS, but the cost in lives, economic damage, and planetary devastation would be many times greater.

Additionally, this strategic reality means the CIS has to attack. While the Separatists don't actually want to conquer the galaxy - their goal is a treaty acknowledging the sovereignty of the seceded territories - their only path to securing legitimate negotiations is to crush the Republic, and because of the massive economic disadvantage they face the only way they can win is to devastate the Republic enough such that the Republic either sues for peace through morale failure or the Republic's economy is so shattered by bombardment that they can't build the CIS under.

Even further, once the Clone Army is revealed, the Jedi need not accept leadership of it. The clones are perfectly capable of fighting on their own on behalf of the Republic (which they mostly do anyway, since Jedi leadership is exceedingly thin on the ground). Even without the clones, all the ships built by Rothana Heavy Engineering are available to the Republic regardless, even if they had to crash train sailors to crew them.

The true battle is long over by the time we get to start watching the movies, because Sidious escaping notice and rising to the point he can execute his plan is the victory, not the finals moves around the chessboard. Only Windu almost upsets the pieces.

This is not quite correct. It's much more accurate to say that the battle has begun long before the movies, and the Jedi are losing. While Sidious' meddling is directly responsible for inciting the Clone Wars, the greater trigger is a deteriorating situation all across galactic society due to a combination of economic and demographic change, government dysfunction, and the failure of the Jedi Order to fulfill its responsibilities is sustaining the Republic. All of this ties to the actual topic of this thread: a series that takes place in ~100 BBY (70 years before TPM), which is when all of this is set in motion. Some of this is structural, and some of it is the work of Sidious' predecessors: Darth Plagueis and Darth Tenebrous.

However, a reversal is always possible. The Star Wars galaxy doesn't function in the way real life does, because the Force exists and the Force violates probability. This goes back to ANH - by any reasonable calculation, the Empire should win at Yavin. When Tarkin says 'I think you overestimate their chances' he is completely correct, and when Han says 'that shot was one in a million' he's not being hyperbolic at all. The odds really were that bad. At the same time, the odds were also 100% that Luke's shot was going in, because the Force grabbed the scale and yanked, which it can do at any time.

And that's why Anakin's choices are so important. He can save the galaxy, because the Force is with him. He just does not.

[gbaji]

Not picking on you specifically Peelee. You just happened to raise the relevant issues in the most clear ways.

That's bad logic, though. Which, no surprise because I've never accused the prequel trilogy of having good writing, but even if we accept that, they don't need to command the clones. They could work as a separate unit themselves without any clone involvement.

Honestly, while this doesn't resolve the specific issues vis-a-vis consistentcy within the PT itself, this is actually one of the pre-ordained "things that must happen":

Leia in her holographic message to Kenobi:
General Kenobi. Years ago, you served my father in the Clone Wars. Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire. I regret that I am unable to present my father's request to you in person, but my ship has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed. I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope.

Having decided to use the clones and the Clone Wars as the motive force behind the fall of the Republic and rise of the Empire (which was not a bad decision at all IMO), Lucas is kinda stuck having at least one Jedi be a "general" who is presumably therefore fighting and leading troops in the "Clone Wars".

Now sure, Lucas could have swapped things around (well, actually kept them as most people thought it was), and had the clones be the evil army the Jedi and Republic were fighting against. But having reversed that expectation (which was, again, a really good idea), we're once again left with "Jedi hold military ranks and lead the army". Whether that was a clone army fighting for the Republic, or some other army fighting for the Republic against said clone army, we're still left with the same issue.

I'll point out that what you're saying here is the exact same argument I've made in the past that this was, in fact, a terrible mistake for the Jedi to so directly be involved in leading the military efforts. But... we kinda already knew that, in the Clone Wars, at least one Jedi *was* a military general, so...

Again, not really seeing the Jedi being mean to Anakin.

Yeah. Don't see it either. The Jedi treated Anakin just like they treated all the Jedi (and how they expected them to behave). Anakin was just a really really poor candidate for being a Jedi in the first place, and was never actually able to embrace the core teachings and philosophy of the Jedi. I just don't find much value in saying that Anakin was poorly treated by the Jedi because they discouraged him behaving in ways that were in opposition to their own teachings. That's like saying the coach of a sports team is being mean to you because he's trying to teach you not to be a ball hog, and not to commit costly fouls, and forcing you to actually attend practice, and do the same drills as everyone else, and otherwise focus on the team and not just yourself.

Ah! The horrors!

That's fair for the army. But even then, prioritizing a Jedi prisoner over crippling the actual army they had is a horrible tactical decision, if the Jedi are going to commingle with the army. Doubly so by having the Jedi and the army be almost entirely separated. And even further exacerbated when they know there is already another Jedi actively working on freeing the captive.

Except that the council specifically and directly tells Anakin and Padme to stay where they are and not mount a rescue. It's discussed in the councili chambers right there. Mace is to send a team to investigate Genosis, free Kenobi, and perhaps capture the folks involved in this plot, while Yoda goes to check out the clone army Kenobi told them about, and which the Chancellor has asked them to mobilize in response to the Genosis crisis.

Mace does not know what exactly Yoda will find. He has no way to knowing when he sets out for Genosis that Yoda will find a fully functional army and will be able to mobilize it and reach Genosis in time to help out. He knows only that there is a large group of people who are building an army to attack and/or separate from the Republic, and that Doku (and others) are involved. Sure. We could suggest that the 30 or so Jedi he brings with him was maybe overkill, but then again... we know that it actually wasn't. He needed a lot more to deal with the situation. I tend to view that bit as "Mace brought as many Jedi as he could get his hands on in a short time span and went to Genosis". And the reason is because he knew that this was going to be a big deal and needed as much power as he could get.

It's kinda strange because lots of folks criticize the Jedi for not being aware enough of threats around them (via the force or maybe even just noodling stuff out), but here's a case where they correctly realized "this is a big freaking threat and we need all hands on deck, and that may still not be enough", and it turns out that they are exactly correct in that assessment, yet now that's also seen as a negative.

Same deal with Yoda. He shows up with the Clone Army, right when it's most needed. We can assume "how could he know to do this" and criticize it. Or we can assume "Yoda and Mace are powerful force users, and they could sense the ripples in the force from such an large nexus event in history" (or whatever handwavey thing we need).

Or.... Yeah. We can also be cynical and just assume that Lucas wanted a dramatic back and forth of fortunes in the sequence, so wrote it that way. Heck. I'm perfectly happen to assume that's exactly what happened from a storyboarding point of view.

I just don't tend to criticise such things as long as there does exist a reasonable explanation for why things worked out that way, even if we're not beaten over the head with it. And to me "Mace realizes this is a huge threat so he brings as many Jedi as he can", followed by "Yoda also realizes this is a huge threat, so he also takes the Clone Army that he's handed and brings them to the same location as quickly as he can", is plenty sufficient to explain that sequence of events. Is it extremely conveniently timed? Sure. The army arrives literally in the nick of time, right? Or... one could argue that "gee. would have been convenient if you'd arrived like 30 minutes earlier", right?

So there's certainly some dramatic license going on in the story. But.... I'm ok with that.

It's still about getting things to happen without telling us why, or decisions being made which are objectively bad.

I think there was sufficent information presented to the audience in the film to rationalize the actions of the characters in the film. There's an entire sequence of Kenobi investigating what's going on on Genosis, overhearing the bad guys talk (specifically about being able to draw in 10,000 systems to their side and have such a large army that the "Jedi will be overwhelmed" and the "Republic will have no choice but to give in to our demands", and also the whole "kill Amidala while we're at it" bits), then reporting that to the Council (well recording it, which gets picked up by Anakin and Padme, and then relayed to the council). And then also the bits where Yoda and Mace talk about what to do about this. It's litearlly all right there in the film itself. After the scene were Palapatine declares the creation of a Grand Army of the Republic, Mace says he will take "what Jedi we have left" to Genosis (kinda suggest he's taking "everyone out of youngling robes" with him), while Yoda will go to check out the clone army.


Is this all remarkably well timed as it happens? Sure. Anakin and Padme arrive to try to rescue Kenobi, then they're all put in the arena to get killed, fight their way out, then the droids show up to finish them off, only for Mace and his Jedi to reveal themselves in the crowd and save them, only for more and tougher driods to show up and start whittling the Jedi numbers down, only for Yoda and the clone army to show up at the last second to save the day. Yeah. It's dramatically paced. But again, I'm fine with that. Every single element in that sequence was already prepped for the audience ahead of time. So I see nothing in there which happened which was not previously known and discussed.

[Mechalich]

Yeah. Don't see it either. The Jedi treated Anakin just like they treated all the Jedi (and how they expected them to behave). Anakin was just a really really poor candidate for being a Jedi in the first place, and was never actually able to embrace the core teachings and philosophy of the Jedi. I just don't find much value in saying that Anakin was poorly treated by the Jedi because they discouraged him behaving in ways that were in opposition to their own teachings. That's like saying the coach of a sports team is being mean to you because he's trying to teach you not to be a ball hog, and not to commit costly fouls, and forcing you to actually attend practice, and do the same drills as everyone else, and otherwise focus on the team and not just yourself.

The Jedi Order created an exception to the rules in choosing to train Anakin. Their failure, following this, was not recognizing that he would need exceptional treatment going forward thereafter. To extend the sports team analogy a little, bringing in Anakin was like a team producing a new process to acquire a foreign player in a manner never previously used and at the same time trying to treat that player exactly the same as one recruited through traditional methods. There's quite a long list of sports teams doing stuff like this and it ending badly. If the Jedi were going to train Anakin they needed to follow through, and they don't. They also don't recognize how, as the Clone Wars proceed, Anakin has become the first Jedi Superstar in at least 1000 years and he has, just as a sports superstar does, acquired a certain degree of leverage he can deploy against the team. He ultimately uses this by demanding to be made a Jedi Master. Is this childish, entitled, and petulant? Oh yeah, it certainly is, but the Council handles it very badly because they don't understand what they have created.

Either Anakin is the Chosen One and gets to be special, or he isn't, and should be treated like any other Jedi. The Jedi Council seems unable to make up its mind, and while that is very much a secondary issue to Anakin's own problems, it is an issue.

It's kinda strange because lots of folks criticize the Jedi for not being aware enough of threats around them (via the force or maybe even just noodling stuff out), but here's a case where they correctly realized "this is a big freaking threat and we need all hands on deck, and that may still not be enough", and it turns out that they are exactly correct in that assessment, yet now that's also seen as a negative.

I think it's seen as a negative because of how woefully inadequate the response turns out to be. Mace Windu brings ~210 Jedi to Geonosis, which is ~2% of the Order as a whole (some of them are Padawans, so it's not exactly 200/1000). The CIS brings, at an absolute maximum, 10,000 battledroids to the arena (probably substantially less), which is a whole lot less than 2% of CIS forces, truthfully it's not even 0.002%. Battle breaks out and the droids brutally slaughter the Jedi - the shot of the strike team surrounded before the clones appear contains exactly 14 people, and three of them are Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme, strongly suggesting that Mace lost >200 of the ~215 Jedi he brought, well over 90% casualties.

We have a situation in which the Jedi diagnose the threat correctly, they react with all available force, and yet their response is utterly pathetic in its ability to handle the threat. The First Battle of Geonosis in AotC makes the Jedi Order look worthless. And if you scale up it gets worse. 10,000 droids are nothing, even on the scale of a single planet (that's a smaller force than the active military of Denmark). If 2% of the Jedi Order can't deal with that kind of threat, how can they possibly defend the Republic? Any attempt to evaluate the incident just makes the Order look almost ludicrously weak.

[Mordar]

The Republic has no army. More than that, it specifically has a law forbidding it from having an army. The opening scene in AotC is of Padme arriving on Coruscant in preparation for a vote on the Military Creation Act, a proposed law that would allow the Republic to have an army again. Later in the film, when Jar-Jar gives his big speech to give Palpatine 'emergency powers' one of the provisions of said emergency powers is basically the military creation act, only with the ability to raise an army given to the Chancellor rather than the Senate.

I counted the defense forces, but this still lays right in line.

It's rather more complicated than this. The CIS (Separatists) controls ~20% of the known galaxy's territory, population, and economic output (which are not all in the same place). The systems loyal to the Republic control ~60%, and another ~20% remains nominally neutral (though the Hutts, by far the largest 'neutral' block will side with the Republic fairly early in the war, committing critical intelligence, though not any troops).

Additionally, this strategic reality means the CIS has to attack. While the Separatists don't actually want to conquer the galaxy - their goal is a treaty acknowledging the sovereignty of the seceded territories - their only path to securing legitimate negotiations is to crush the Republic, and because of the massive economic disadvantage they face the only way they can win is to devastate the Republic enough such that the Republic either sues for peace through morale failure or the Republic's economy is so shattered by bombardment that they can't build the CIS under.

Even further, once the Clone Army is revealed, the Jedi need not accept leadership of it. The clones are perfectly capable of fighting on their own on behalf of the Republic (which they mostly do anyway, since Jedi leadership is exceedingly thin on the ground). Even without the clones, all the ships built by Rothana Heavy Engineering are available to the Republic regardless, even if they had to crash train sailors to crew them.

But at its root, does it matter? Sidious makes both sides dance. If the Jedi take the Clones, win or lose against the CIS, they lose in the long run. If they don't take the clones, short of ordering them destroyed, Sidious has the Clone army if he needs it later. This is a Ferengi rules kind of deal...either option is good for Sidious' business. Particularly in a melodrama.

This is not quite correct. It's much more accurate to say that the battle has begun long before the movies, and the Jedi are losing. While Sidious' meddling is directly responsible for inciting the Clone Wars, the greater trigger is a deteriorating situation all across galactic society due to a combination of economic and demographic change, government dysfunction, and the failure of the Jedi Order to fulfill its responsibilities is sustaining the Republic. All of this ties to the actual topic of this thread: a series that takes place in ~100 BBY (70 years before TPM), which is when all of this is set in motion. Some of this is structural, and some of it is the work of Sidious' predecessors: Darth Plagueis and Darth Tenebrous.

However, a reversal is always possible. The Star Wars galaxy doesn't function in the way real life does, because the Force exists and the Force violates probability. This goes back to ANH - by any reasonable calculation, the Empire should win at Yavin. When Tarkin says 'I think you overestimate their chances' he is completely correct, and when Han says 'that shot was one in a million' he's not being hyperbolic at all. The odds really were that bad. At the same time, the odds were also 100% that Luke's shot was going in, because the Force grabbed the scale and yanked, which it can do at any time.

And that's why Anakin's choices are so important. He can save the galaxy, because the Force is with him. He just does not.

The conditions set the stage for Sidious' actions, but without it perhaps the Jedi talk the CIS down (or they don't even get beyond rabble-rousing?). However, I still don't hang all of that on a group of Marshals and "special envoy" diplomats...because there is a limit to what LEOs can accomplish. The Jedi are not those who control the Republic, rather they are the lawmen riding the frontier, bringing stability where they can. I'll take your point and modify...we're in the Endgame when we start the films, and Black is *way* up on White.

Reversal is apparently possible (like I said, Sidious' excellent plan still needed Anakin to not be 15 seconds later, etc.), but this is also a tragedy/redemption story, so Sidious needs to temporarily win so Anakin can toss him into a reactor core. Something about probability servicing drama in Anakin being alive to do the tossing, the Death Star to have been successfully blown up by a vapor farmer who then "water lands" next to the tiniest sentient in a giant swamp...after having been saved from an icy death by a one-in-a-million chance location by a guy who was voted "Most likely to cut and run".

One of the things I most liked about the PT (besides Amidala's costumes in Phantom Menace) was the quality of the Saturday matinee intrigue plotline...strong enough at its core to be a Clancy story while still accessible enough to the target audience...even if it didn't get the attention it deserved.

I think it's seen as a negative because of how woefully inadequate the response turns out to be. Mace Windu brings ~210 Jedi to Geonosis, which is ~2% of the Order as a whole (some of them are Padawans, so it's not exactly 200/1000). The CIS brings, at an absolute maximum, 10,000 battledroids to the arena (probably substantially less), which is a whole lot less than 2% of CIS forces, truthfully it's not even 0.002%. Battle breaks out and the droids brutally slaughter the Jedi - the shot of the strike team surrounded before the clones appear contains exactly 14 people, and three of them are Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme, strongly suggesting that Mace lost >200 of the ~215 Jedi he brought, well over 90% casualties.

We have a situation in which the Jedi diagnose the threat correctly, they react with all available force, and yet their response is utterly pathetic in its ability to handle the threat. The First Battle of Geonosis in AotC makes the Jedi Order look worthless. And if you scale up it gets worse. 10,000 droids are nothing, even on the scale of a single planet (that's a smaller force than the active military of Denmark). If 2% of the Jedi Order can't deal with that kind of threat, how can they possibly defend the Republic? Any attempt to evaluate the incident just makes the Order look almost ludicrously weak.

The [insert most capable and scary and dangerous letter-acronym real agencies here] look ludicrously weak as a military force too. Because neither the Jedi Order nor [those letters] are a military force. Hence the need for Clones, and Sidious' first fork!

- M

[Errorname]

They also don't recognize how, as the Clone Wars proceed, Anakin has become the first Jedi Superstar in at least 1000 years and he has, just as a sports superstar does, acquired a certain degree of leverage he can deploy against the team. He ultimately uses this by demanding to be made a Jedi Master. Is this childish, entitled, and petulant? Oh yeah, it certainly is, but the Council handles it very badly because they don't understand what they have created.

This is true, although I would note that Clone Wars implies that a lot of younger Jedi are turning out like Anakin because of the stresses the war is putting on the order and their ability to actually train their students.

We have a situation in which the Jedi diagnose the threat correctly, they react with all available force, and yet their response is utterly pathetic in its ability to handle the threat. The First Battle of Geonosis in AotC makes the Jedi Order look worthless. And if you scale up it gets worse. 10,000 droids are nothing, even on the scale of a single planet (that's a smaller force than the active military of Denmark). If 2% of the Jedi Order can't deal with that kind of threat, how can they possibly defend the Republic? Any attempt to evaluate the incident just makes the Order look almost ludicrously weak.

The Jedi on their own are not an army. They're diplomats, commanders and elite fighters that are best deployed embedded within a conventional army. In the past, they probably would have had Yoda mobilize levies from nearby republic planets (This happens in Clone Wars in the Water Wars arc when they need to call on the Gungans to reinforce a key front because they just don't have enough clone divisions outfitted for underwater combat) instead of running down to the shop to pick up the anonymously gifted slave army, but they were probably always going to bring an army in.

[gbaji]

The Jedi Order created an exception to the rules in choosing to train Anakin. Their failure, following this, was not recognizing that he would need exceptional treatment going forward thereafter. To extend the sports team analogy a little, bringing in Anakin was like a team producing a new process to acquire a foreign player in a manner never previously used and at the same time trying to treat that player exactly the same as one recruited through traditional methods. There's quite a long list of sports teams doing stuff like this and it ending badly. If the Jedi were going to train Anakin they needed to follow through, and they don't. They also don't recognize how, as the Clone Wars proceed, Anakin has become the first Jedi Superstar in at least 1000 years and he has, just as a sports superstar does, acquired a certain degree of leverage he can deploy against the team. He ultimately uses this by demanding to be made a Jedi Master. Is this childish, entitled, and petulant? Oh yeah, it certainly is, but the Council handles it very badly because they don't understand what they have created.

Either Anakin is the Chosen One and gets to be special, or he isn't, and should be treated like any other Jedi. The Jedi Council seems unable to make up its mind, and while that is very much a secondary issue to Anakin's own problems, it is an issue.

I'm not arguing that what they did with Anakin wasn't a mistake. I'm simply agreeing that it wasn't them "being mean to Anakin". Failing to provide Anakin special treatment and special training, or making exceptions for him because he's a "very special person" is not the same as treating him poorly. Absence of a positive is not the same as the presence of a negative.

Your sports analogy is accurate, but still supports my point. If a team brings in some untrained super star, who acts like a prima donna, and doesn't work well with the rest of the team, and the result is a disaster, was the mistake hiring the guy and trying to make him part of the team? I don't think so. They trained Anakin as "the chosen one" because they wanted a "chosen one" who would abide by and follow the Jedi order rules. In exactly the same way a sport team might hire a natural phenom, but absolutely expect that player to act the same as the rest of the players in terms of discipline, working well with others, etc.

I guess my issue here is the presumed counter: That the Jedi should have.... what? Taken Anakin in, taught him to use his force powers, but not taught him any of the discipline or "rules" that the Order followed? And when he didn't act like a Jedi they should have just said "that's ok, he's special"? How exactly was that supposed to work?

I think it's seen as a negative because of how woefully inadequate the response turns out to be. Mace Windu brings ~210 Jedi to Geonosis, which is ~2% of the Order as a whole (some of them are Padawans, so it's not exactly 200/1000). The CIS brings, at an absolute maximum, 10,000 battledroids to the arena (probably substantially less), which is a whole lot less than 2% of CIS forces, truthfully it's not even 0.002%. Battle breaks out and the droids brutally slaughter the Jedi - the shot of the strike team surrounded before the clones appear contains exactly 14 people, and three of them are Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme, strongly suggesting that Mace lost >200 of the ~215 Jedi he brought, well over 90% casualties.

We have a situation in which the Jedi diagnose the threat correctly, they react with all available force, and yet their response is utterly pathetic in its ability to handle the threat. The First Battle of Geonosis in AotC makes the Jedi Order look worthless. And if you scale up it gets worse. 10,000 droids are nothing, even on the scale of a single planet (that's a smaller force than the active military of Denmark). If 2% of the Jedi Order can't deal with that kind of threat, how can they possibly defend the Republic? Any attempt to evaluate the incident just makes the Order look almost ludicrously weak.

Right. But I was responding to a post questioning why they brought so many Jedi there in the first place. I guess I'm just trying to figure out where the middle ground lies between "they had no reason to think there was a threat that needed more than one or two Jedi" and "they should have known that bringing 200 Jedi would not be enough" (where did that number come from anyway? I just recently re-watched it, and it doesn't look like more than maybe 30-40 Jedi are there in the crowd, and they get whittled down to just less than 15 by the time the clone army arrives).

Anyway, the exact numbers aren't relevant. The point is that they knew there was a huge threat, they brought all of the Jedi they could, and it wasn't enough. Which kinda leads us right into why the Jedi might accept the Clone Army as necessary. The only remaining question is "why did the Jedi choose to take active roles in leading and fighting with this army"? And yeah, that question certianly has a lot of variation and opinion that can be explored.

[Mechalich]

But at its root, does it matter? Sidious makes both sides dance. If the Jedi take the Clones, win or lose against the CIS, they lose in the long run. If they don't take the clones, short of ordering them destroyed, Sidious has the Clone army if he needs it later. This is a Ferengi rules kind of deal...either option is good for Sidious' business. Particularly in a melodrama.

They can lose less badly. If the Jedi refuse leadership of the Clone Army, it still fights - it's far too large to conceal once brought off Kamino and the Senate (including many of Palpatine's own allies who are very much for arming the Republic) will see that it gets used. Sure, Palpatine will win the war without the Jedi, it'll be significantly messier because certain CIS superweapons will succeed but he'll still win, and in the aftermath he'll be in a position to declare himself Chancellor-for-Life, but the Jedi can go to ground and survive, building a resistance from a much earlier date. It's absolutely true that by the time the Clone Wars starts (and even by the beginning of TPM) the Jedi Order has only bad choices. Unfortunately, the PT (and to a degree TCW and other EU material) has them consistently make the worst one.

The [insert most capable and scary and dangerous letter-acronym real agencies here] look ludicrously weak as a military force too. Because neither the Jedi Order nor [those letters] are a military force. Hence the need for Clones, and Sidious' first fork!

The Jedi on their own are not an army. They're diplomats, commanders and elite fighters that are best deployed embedded within a conventional army. In the past, they probably would have had Yoda mobilize levies from nearby republic planets (This happens in Clone Wars in the Water Wars arc when they need to call on the Gungans to reinforce a key front because they just don't have enough clone divisions outfitted for underwater combat) instead of running down to the shop to pick up the anonymously gifted slave army, but they were probably always going to bring an army in.

Mace goes to Geonosis unsupported. They weren't always going to bring an army, Yoda had no way of knowing that the clones were even ready to be deployed. Mace Windu thought that ~215 Jedi would be enough. it is implied in various EU materials that the Jedi expected the CIS to surrender (Bultar Swan literally says this). The Jedi relied all too heavily on their pride, on the idea of their invincibility, even though it had been punctured some time previously. Even at Geonosis, Mace sneers at Dooku's statement that things are absolutely hopeless, and then the next few minutes prove that Dooku was right and Mace was wrong. It's fine to say that the Jedi aren't an army, but they often act like they are and in the pre-Russan period they were. It's just that they completely underestimate the capabilities of 'modern' forces arranged against them.

We can certainly quibble over exactly how and for what reasons the Jedi look bad at First Geonosis, but it's a bad look regardless.

This is true, although I would note that Clone Wars implies that a lot of younger Jedi are turning out like Anakin because of the stresses the war is putting on the order and their ability to actually train their students.

Anakin is a massive outlier. Most of the younger Jedi thrown into the fires of the Clone Wars end up dead. The Jedi Order takes huge casualties throughout the course of the war, quite possibly to the point that their numbers circa RotS are no more than half what they started with or worse, and those casualties fall disproportionately upon Padawans and Young Knights forced into combat. Even among those Jedi Knights who accumulate heroic victories during the conflict, such as Aayla Secura, have combat records that are maybe 1/10th of what Anakin's ludicrously overstuffed biography contains.

[ecarden]

They can lose less badly. If the Jedi refuse leadership of the Clone Army, it still fights - it's far too large to conceal once brought off Kamino and the Senate (including many of Palpatine's own allies who are very much for arming the Republic) will see that it gets used. Sure, Palpatine will win the war without the Jedi, it'll be significantly messier because certain CIS superweapons will succeed but he'll still win, and in the aftermath he'll be in a position to declare himself Chancellor-for-Life, but the Jedi can go to ground and survive, building a resistance from a much earlier date. It's absolutely true that by the time the Clone Wars starts (and even by the beginning of TPM) the Jedi Order has only bad choices. Unfortunately, the PT (and to a degree TCW and other EU material) has them consistently make the worst one.

Eh, I guess I'd ask what the Jedi are actually doing then, while the war is going on and the CIS is merrily running around conquering planets, committing genocide and enslaving entire populations?

Because just staying out of it, while Dooku, 'ex'-Jedi leads the CIS, seems likely to end with the Jedi so thoroughly discredited as an organization that they're hunted through the streets by angry mobs without Palpatine having to do anything.

[Infernally Clay]

I guess my issue here is the presumed counter: That the Jedi should have.... what? Taken Anakin in, taught him to use his force powers, but not taught him any of the discipline or "rules" that the Order followed? And when he didn't act like a Jedi they should have just said "that's ok, he's special"? How exactly was that supposed to work?

They didn’t integrate him, that’s the problem. Making Anakin a padawan out the gate was a huge mistake because it meant he didn’t spend years in a classroom with other students like himself, as a youngling should, which would have made him feel like he belonged somewhere. Anakin never felt like he belonged in the Jedi Order because the Jedi Order intentionally excluded him. There’s even a comic book where other padawans gang up and try to bully Anakin because they feel like he got special treatment. Obviously it doesn’t end well for them because Anakin is vastly more powerful than them even when they’re twice his age, but it emphasises that the Jedi Order did not treat Anakin like any other Jedi. They kinda didn’t want anything to do with him and he knew it. Imagine being raised as a slave, then being sent to train as a Jedi by an Order that doesn’t want you around.

Look at Ahsoka, for example. She’s only actually about five years younger than Anakin and she actually joined the Jedi Order around the same time as him (she was 3 years old, he was 8). She didn’t become a padawan until she was 14 and that was considered a young age to become a padawan given that a lot of younglings were being fast tracked to padawan status because of the war. So even though Anakin and Ahsoka joined the Order around the same time, Ahsoka spent the next eleven years building that sense of community and belonging whereas Anakin spent almost no time at all with other Jedi besides Obi-Wan because they were always being sent on missions.

[Mechalich]

Eh, I guess I'd ask what the Jedi are actually doing then, while the war is going on and the CIS is merrily running around conquering planets, committing genocide and enslaving entire populations?

Because just staying out of it, while Dooku, 'ex'-Jedi leads the CIS, seems likely to end with the Jedi so thoroughly discredited as an organization that they're hunted through the streets by angry mobs without Palpatine having to do anything.

They should have divided their efforts, which, based on what we know, would actually have been more effective.

The Jedi are, with few exceptions, not especially talented at command (yes, Anakin and Obi-Wan are rather substantial exceptions, so it goes). The record, such as it stands, is that clones allowed to command themselves or under the command of non-clone officers were not significantly less effective than when under Jedi command. Nor do the Clones really need Jedi commanders in anything beyond a symbolic role. Yoda 'leads' the attack on Geonosis without any other Jedi to help, and the huge clone force handles things just fine. By contrast the Jedi vastly enhance special forces operations, since the Force allows for various options in a small-group tactical environment that simply cannot be duplicated otherwise.

The Jedi should have divided their efforts into at least four different major groups. First, they should have dictated a small number of talented and high-ranking Jedi with known leadership skills to form a high command, maybe ~100 Masters. The members of the High Council commanding armies makes some sense, as they are the only Jedi with a strategic perspective.

Second, they should have dedicated a much larger group to conduct special forces operations alongside various Republic units such as the ARC Troopers and Clone Commandos. This might well include as much as half the Order's combat strength and probably would have done more good and ended the war faster than putting the Jedi in command accomplished.

Third, they should have developed an independent special forces structure taking advantage of various assets and capabilities scattered throughout the galaxy that the clones - who ultimately have only one base template - cannot provide. There are plenty of viable excuses for this, such as environmental and cultural needs (we even sort of see this from time to time, like when they go ask the Gungans to help out on Mon Calamari). That would be the other half of Jedi combat strength, tied to a homegrown military apparatus whose loyalty they could insure properly and that would spread gratitude more widely instead of the situation where at the end of the Clone Wars the clones love the Jedi, but only the clones.

Fourth, they should have made efforts to disperse and secure noncombatants in multiple locations. A significant portion of the Jedi Order survives Order 66 by mere hours because they are killed during Operation Knightfall when Anakin leads the 501st to attack the Jedi Temple. The Jedi knew there was Sith infiltration at high levels of the Republic but made no move to secure redoubts anywhere else in the galaxy, leaving their younglings, various non-combatant personnel, and critical artifacts all on Coruscant where they were impossible to protect.

In this scenario, Order 66 is still possible, but the impacts are limited. Even the Jedi working with commando forces would be much more likely to escape, since a group of 4-8 elites lacks the ability to pin down and corner a Jedi easily if they evade the initial attack. It's one thing to shove an arm into the trap as bait, but the Jedi Order inserted their head.

[Errorname]

Anakin is a massive outlier. Most of the younger Jedi thrown into the fires of the Clone Wars end up dead.

Anakin is a massive outlier in terms of skill and raw power, in terms of temperament I don't know. Clone Wars doesn't spend much time on how the younger generation of Padawans are turning out but what little time they do spend on it is not encouraging.

[Infernally Clay]

Anakin is a massive outlier in terms of skill and raw power, in terms of temperament I don't know. Clone Wars doesn't spend much time on how the younger generation of Padawans are turning out but what little time they do spend on it is not encouraging.

Case in point, Barriss Offee. Starts the war as an idealist, almost dies half a dozen times and ends up blowing up the Jedi Temple in protest of the seemingly widely-held belief that the Jedi have lost their way and have fallen so very far from the light they once held dear.

It actually sounds a lot like Ahsoka lucked out. Anakin didn't train her to win battles, he trained her to survive them, and he never gave up on her. Like that one time she and Barriss got trapped underground on Geonosis and Luminara, Barriss' master, didn't try to rescue them because she believed they would survive if the Force willed it and Anakin was just like "screw that!".

If it hadn't been for Anakin, if Ahsoka had been Plo Koon's padawan for example, I don't think she would have survived the war. Not just because no other Jedi would ever go as far as Anakin did to prove Ahsoka's innocence regarding the Jedi Temple bombing, but the general mentality of the Jedi as a whole. For all their insistence that Jedi should not build attachments to others, it was Anakin's attachments that allowed him to save as many as he did during the Clone Wars (including the nine times he saved Obi-Wan) and it was his attachments that redeemed him in the end when he chose his love of Luke over his fear of Palpatine.

[Errorname]

Case in point, Barriss Offee. Starts the war as an idealist, almost dies half a dozen times and ends up blowing up the Jedi Temple in protest of the seemingly widely-held belief that the Jedi have lost their way and have fallen so very far from the light they once held dear.

I'm also thinking about Nahdar Vebb. I remember interviews where Filoni talked about how he was meant to show a shift in the mindset of younger Jedi who are coming up in this environment of war. Vebb doesn't have anywhere near Anakin's power so he ultimately just gets himself killed, but I do think it's a sign. The show doesn't spend much time on Ahsoka's peers, Vebb and Barriss are the only ones we get and I do think it's notable that they're both portrayed as utterly failing to live by the Jedi's ideals.

[Infernally Clay]

I'm also thinking about Nahdar Vebb. I remember interviews where Filoni talked about how he was meant to show a shift in the mindset of younger Jedi who are coming up in this environment of war. Vebb doesn't have anywhere near Anakin's power so he ultimately just gets himself killed, but I do think it's a sign. The show doesn't spend much time on Ahsoka's peers, Vebb and Barriss are the only ones we get and I do think it's notable that they're both portrayed as utterly failing to live by the Jedi's ideals.

There is also Kanan Jarrus and Cal Kestis. Both were deeply traumatised by the war and it affected them severely even as adults. It makes sense too. The Jedi are emotionally detached by design and they see little wrong with sending children into warzones or giving them command over hundreds of clone troopers.

These children were no longer being trained to be Jedi, they were being trained to be disposable military leaders. Disposable may sound harsh but, again, when Barriss was missing Luminara just assumed she was dead and made no attempt to rescue her and she's apparently noted for her "great patience, bravery, compassion, and discipline". If Anakin hadn't been there Luminara would've gone to the Council, told them Barriss died and she would've been given a new padawan to replace her.

This is actually something I think (?) Ahsoka touched on? I seem to recall that Anakin didn't feel as though he finished Ahsoka's training because, to get her through the war, he taught her to either fight or die and he was never able to teach her to live.

[LibraryOgre]

This is actually something I think (?) Ahsoka touched on? I seem to recall that Anakin didn't feel as though he finished Ahsoka's training because, to get her through the war, he taught her to either fight or die and he was never able to teach her to live.

You know the Jedi Council ****ed up when the best at raising children among them became Darth Vader. I mean, yeah, his name is "Lord Daddy", but, seriously, y'all got out-parented by the Sith.

[Peelee]

You know the Jedi Council ****ed up when the best at raising children among them became Darth Vader. I mean, yeah, his name is "Lord Daddy", but, seriously, y'all got out-parented by the Sith.

Don't know how you qualify "best" here, but i wouldn't call Ahsoka the best outcome.