Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

[dancrilis]

They just handed her over to be executed for a crime

They handed her over to stand trial in front of a court they thought was fair - presumedly the same court system all other republic military members would get.

You never hear about former or retired Jedi that went on to do other things.

Count Dooku left the order without issue.

You assert that Anakin is just "meant to have a handle on it"

He was - he wasn't a padawan any longer but a jedi knight his training was complete and unfortunately for him and the jedi he often kept secrets hidden from them while revealing them to Palpatine (secrets which might have prevented him from becoming a jedi knight).

[Infernally Clay]

They handed her over to stand trial in front of a court they thought was fair - presumedly the same court system all other republic military members would get.

They did not believe the trial would be fair. They knew it wouldn't be. Mace Windu even argued that they had to banish Ahsoka from the Order so she could stand trial as a civilian otherwise it would be seen as an act of opposition to the Senate. They were sending Ahsoka to die so that the Republic wouldn't lose faith in them, just like they didn't tell anyone that the clones were bankrolled by Count Dooku because the Republic would lose faith in the Jedi and the war itself.

It's pretty clear where the Jedi Order's allegiance lied in the final years of the Republic.

Count Dooku left the order without issue.

Looking into it further there have been twenty Jedi since the inception of the Order that left and they are collectively known, rather aptly, as the Lost Twenty. It kinda proves my point that only twenty Jedi ever left the Order in, what, five thousand years?

He was - he wasn't a padawan any longer but a jedi knight his training was complete and unfortunately for him and the jedi he often kept secrets hidden from them while revealing them to Palpatine (secrets which might have prevented him from becoming a jedi knight).

So they just washed their hands of him and his emotional needs the moment he passed the trials? Even though Anakin didn't earn the rank of Jedi Knight the way a Jedi traditionally did? Clearly the Jedi Order is pretty lax when it comes to what qualifies a Jedi to become a Knight given they promoted Obi-Wan to Jedi Knight for killing Darth Maul and Windu even tried to twist the whole "we're sorry for kicking you out of the Order and giving you up to the Republic for execution" thing into "if you come back we'll make you a Jedi Knight" with Ahsoka.

This argument does not withstand scrutiny. The Jedi Council did not want Anakin to become a Jedi and they treated him quite coldly as a result. They couldn't exactly stop Anakin from becoming a Jedi after all, because Obi-Wan was going to train him regardless, so they put the kid on a leash instead. The distance they kept Anakin at allowed Palpatine to get his claws into him, turning who would have been the Jedi Order's greatest defense against the Sith into their greatest weakness.

[Errorname]

They handed her over to stand trial in front of a court they thought was fair - presumedly the same court system all other republic military members would get.

So I'd agree that in theory this is the good and proper state of affairs, criminal Jedi prosecuted by the civilian government rather than being handled internally behind closed doors by their peers and colleagues who may be inclined to shield them from consequences. But in the context of this specific trial the Jedi are not doing the moral thing here. It is made clear that under a less authoritarian and more reasonable government, the Jedi would not hand their own over, they would handle the matter internally. Handing Ahsoka over is a sign of weakness, an indication of how much power Palpatine has over them now.

That entire arc is really just hammering in that the Empire is already here and Palpatine has basically already won.

[Peelee]

It was never a matter of whether or not it could be proven, considering how easily it was proven - Barris Offee literally kept the incriminating evidence in her room, remember - but that they didn't have Ahsoka's back.

A.) "it is possible for it to be proven" and "Kenobi perosnally is able to prove it" are two very different statements. You're the one who brought Kenobi into this. If Kenobi can't prove it, then what he "knows" is worth jack.
2.) Again, are you claiming "this person was imperfect so the entire organization was never functional"? Because you said the entire organization was never functional, and you seem to only be able to point to some people screwing up some of the time.

[Mechalich]

That entire arc is really just hammering in that the Empire is already here and Palpatine has basically already won.

He's almost won at that point, though it's an extension of the wins he's been accruing since before TPM. However, the way the Force influences conflicts in Star Wars makes things tricky. In Star Wars, no lead is ever safe. You can be up 50 with 30 seconds left and still somehow lose. Worse, when it comes to light/dark conflicts, this is almost inherent to the game: the dark side always takes the early lead, but as the situation grows more and more desperate the light rallies and pulls a massive win seemingly from nowhere on the final play.

Palpatine, of course, knows this. It's the fundamental insight of the entire Banite Sith scheme. He knows he absolutely must maintain cover until the very end, because he only gets one strike in the open before the scales fall from the eyes of the Jedi Order and he's stuck fighting an intergalactic war with whatever remains and all their allies that, no matter how many advantages it seems like he has, he will lose. Doubtless he has foreseen such outcomes as well, countless times, always taking the necessary steps to avoid them.

Anakin is the fulcrum upon which this lever of the Force bends. His choice, at the pivotal moment, decides whether or not the Jedi survive to fight on - remember, even if Mace kills Palpatine, a huge chunk of the galaxy still turns against the Jedi for launching a coup against their beloved leader - or whether they are exterminated. And Anakin makes that choice knowing full well what the costs will be - he bets the freedom of the whole galaxy and the lives of basically everyone he knows against the life of his wife and unborn children (of course he loses them both anyway, but that's the nature of the dark side).

Insofar as the Jedi Order of the PT is flawed it is that they both produced an individual capable of making that choice and that they placed him in a position where he was able to make it at all. Some of that is highly individualized to Anakin's specific personality and doesn't generalize to the rest of the Order at all. Some of it is structural factors that does. The 'no attachments' rule is part of this. Not that it would have changed Anakin's choices: even if he'd been allowed to have his relationship with Padme publicly known without objection, he still would have sacrificed the galaxy for her and his kids, but it would have allowed the Jedi Order to manage his deployments better and avoid conflicts of interest if the relationship had not been clandestine.

[Errorname]

Palpatine, of course, knows this. It's the fundamental insight of the entire Banite Sith scheme. He knows he absolutely must maintain cover until the very end, because he only gets one strike in the open before the scales fall from the eyes of the Jedi Order and he's stuck fighting an intergalactic war with whatever remains and all their allies that, no matter how many advantages it seems like he has, he will lose. Doubtless he has foreseen such outcomes as well, countless times, always taking the necessary steps to avoid them.

Palpatine has, at this point, almost complete control over the republic and embedded the Jedi within a massive army that he can turn against them with a single phrase. He has positioned it so that when the Jedi do act against him, he can counterattack with the full force of the new Empire. Even if Anakin sides with Mace, the Jedi will still be outlaws, Order 66 will still be put into place, there will still be an Empire. The win-state for the Jedi Order at this point is not "save the republic", it is "stay alive"

Insofar as the Jedi Order of the PT is flawed it is that they both produced an individual capable of making that choice and that they placed him in a position where he was able to make it at all.

I think the Jedi being presented with an army of slave soldiers and reacting with "okay, cool, I'm a general now" without even looking the gift horse in the mouth is also pretty damning from both a moral and a pragmatic perspective, although I guess it makes sense that an order entirely composed of people taken from their families as young children and trained to be warriors might have a skewed perspective about that sort of thing.

[Mechalich]

Palpatine has, at this point, almost complete control over the republic and embedded the Jedi within a massive army that he can turn against them with a single phrase. He has positioned it so that when the Jedi do act against him, he can counterattack with the full force of the new Empire. Even if Anakin sides with Mace, the Jedi will still be outlaws, Order 66 will still be put into place, there will still be an Empire. The win-state for the Jedi Order at this point is not "save the republic", it is "stay alive"

If the Jedi stay alive, they will save the Republic, period. You are absolutely correct that, from a logical, balance-of-power perspective that doesn't make sense, but the Force don't give a **** about any of that, and the Force ultimately gets to decide. Also, if the Jedi stay alive, they almost certainly assassinate Palpatine successfully (if Obi-Wan had gone with Yoda to face him, they might well have). Yes, there would still be a massive war, since there is a huge faction within the Republic that supports Palpatine, but there's also a large opposition faction that doesn't and is simply intimidated into silence and if the Jedi survive that intimidation fails and they join with the Jedi to fight. And the Jedi would ultimately win.

I think the Jedi being presented with an army of slave soldiers and reacting with "okay, cool, I'm a general now" without even looking the gift horse in the mouth is also pretty damning from both a moral and a pragmatic perspective, although I guess it makes sense that an order entirely composed of people taken from their families as young children and trained to be warriors might have a skewed perspective about that sort of thing.

The Jedi did look the gift horse in the mouth, they just didn't look close enough and didn't use the right tools. Notably, they relied heavily on their ability to sense things through the Force. That included evaluating the clones and discovering that they were heroic, valiant, and possessed of deep camaraderie. Everything the Jedi knew to trust told them 'the clones are cool, no worries' (TCW basically comes out and says this straight up in a council meeting at one point). That was a mistake, and a big one to be sure, decisive even, but it's not like the Jedi didn't investigate at all.

Part of the thing here is that because the Jedi had been essentially unchanging with regard to everything for 800 years - because of Master Yoda - Palpatine could study them and predict exactly how they would react to everything. And, because the Jedi had basically convinced themselves the Sith didn't exist anymore, they were almost completely blind to how vulnerable they were to this kind of predictive counter-planning.

[InvisibleBison]

Even if Anakin sides with Mace, the Jedi will still be outlaws, Order 66 will still be put into place, there will still be an Empire. The win-state for the Jedi Order at this point is not "save the republic", it is "stay alive"

I'm not sure about that. Anakin chose to side with Palpatine as Mace was delivering a death blow to Palpatine. If Anakin had sided with Mace instead, it seems pretty likely that Palpatine would have just died then and there, and his schemes would have collapsed.

[Infernally Clay]

I'm not sure about that. Anakin chose to side with Palpatine as Mace was delivering a death blow to Palpatine. If Anakin had sided with Mace instead, it seems pretty likely that Palpatine would have just died then and there, and his schemes would have collapsed.

Yeah, Windu wasn't letting Palpatine out of that room alive. With Palpatine dead there would be no Order 66, because as far as we're aware only Palpatine or Dooku knew about it and could initiate it.

To think that all Windu needed to do was bring Anakin along and the Jedi Order may not have been wiped out and the Republic may not have fallen for a little while yet. Not only was Anakin far stronger than any of the other Jedi that Windu took with him, but Anakin would have seen the powerful and malevolent force that Palpatine truly was rather than the weak and dying old man that needed to be protected from the Jedi.

But that was the point, I s'pose. Palpatine knew the Council wouldn't trust Anakin enough to keep him in the loop even if he pointed them right to their sworn enemy. He knew they'd send their best and leave Anakin, their real best, at the Jedi Temple.

[ecarden]

Palpatine has, at this point, almost complete control over the republic and embedded the Jedi within a massive army that he can turn against them with a single phrase. He has positioned it so that when the Jedi do act against him, he can counterattack with the full force of the new Empire. Even if Anakin sides with Mace, the Jedi will still be outlaws, Order 66 will still be put into place, there will still be an Empire. The win-state for the Jedi Order at this point is not "save the republic", it is "stay alive".

Order 66 has not been given yet. If Anakin sides with Mace, Palpatine is dead. Dooku is dead. Grievous is dead. Now, there's a lot of political problems, depending on what the Jedi can prove about their motivations and actions, but I don't think there's any chance of the Jedi being genocided or outlawed. Worst case is Windu and Anakin get tossed to the wolves for political reasons.

[Keltest]

Order 66 has not been given yet. If Anakin sides with Mace, Palpatine is dead. Dooku is dead. Grievous is dead. Now, there's a lot of political problems, depending on what the Jedi can prove about their motivations and actions, but I don't think there's any chance of the Jedi being genocided or outlawed. Worst case is Windu and Anakin get tossed to the wolves for political reasons.

Probably not even that, given that the allegedly old and relatively feeble chancellor whipped out a lightsaber and killed several Jedi resisting arrest. Even toadies like Tarkin would be hard pressed to say that they should have made a stronger effort to capture him alive.

[ecarden]

Probably not even that, given that the allegedly old and relatively feeble chancellor whipped out a lightsaber and killed several Jedi resisting arrest. Even toadies like Tarkin would be hard pressed to say that they should have made a stronger effort to capture him alive.

Eh...so this goes back to the 'what evidence is available' and the weirdness of Star Wars security/tech. Like, if you've got a security camera that captures all this and can't easily be faked, yeah, I think you're probably okay. There's questions about the Jedi Council's authority to make an arrest, but Palpatine 100% initiates combat and bounces around like a deranged laughing murder machine. Anyone who sees that isn't going to be on his side.

But, if it's treated like Space Fantasy, and the only evidence is testimony from the two people who killed him...I mean, I can see Tarkin et. al. saying 'bull****, you murdered him and your companions who tried to stop you!'

[Infernally Clay]

But, if it's treated like Space Fantasy, and the only evidence is testimony from the two people who killed him...I mean, I can see Tarkin et. al. saying 'bull****, you murdered him and your companions who tried to stop you!'

If you can’t trust the Jedi Council to properly identify Sith, who can you trust? I s’pose an autopsy would show Palpatine had an enormous m-count too, far too high for someone to hide unless they were extremely skilled and therefore up to something. Then I guess you also have the Separatist leaders, the ones Palpatine sent Anakin to silence. Even if they didn’t know Palpatine was Sidious there’s way too much evidence of Dooku working with someone very powerful within the Senate and those guys would have all the receipts, for their own safety. It probably wouldn’t be that difficult to prove the connection between Palpatine and Sidious.

[ecarden]

If you can’t trust the Jedi Council to properly identify Sith, who can you trust? I s’pose an autopsy would show Palpatine had an enormous m-count too, far too high for someone to hide unless they were extremely skilled and therefore up to something. Then I guess you also have the Separatist leaders, the ones Palpatine sent Anakin to silence. Even if they didn’t know Palpatine was Sidious there’s way too much evidence of Dooku working with someone very powerful within the Senate and those guys would have all the receipts, for their own safety. It probably wouldn’t be that difficult to prove the connection between Palpatine and Sidious.

I mean...maybe? But with Dooku and Grievous dead, I don't know that there's any actual evidence connecting Palpatine and Sidious. I can certainly see Tarkin arguing the reverse, even assuming the surrendering Separatist leaders decide to try to out someone they can't identify, but were actively terrified of (so much so that one of them famously didn't give up his existence despite being arrested and on trial).

Because after all, do they know that they have someone high up in the Senate or someone high up in the Republic? Like, say, a Jedi Master and general? After all, who better to have been Dooku's secret ally then, say, an old companion and ally like Mace Windu?

Now, the midichlorian count is an interesting point. First, I'm not actually sure you can test a dead person for them? I don't know how they work, but, given the nature of the Force, it seems entirely possible to me that they die with their 'host'. Assuming they don't, there's two major questions:

1) Does anyone who's not a Jedi know about them? They don't seem to be widely known or tested for. If not, then the obvious answer to 'look at his midichlorian count, he had to be a Force Sensitive' is...'well, isn't that very convenient that you have this unknown test to identify such people that only came up after you assassinated the Chancellor?'

2) Does a high midichlorian count mean you're impossible to hide without skilled action, or does it just mean that if you get appropriate training, you can be a more powerful Jedi/Sith? It's not like everyone instantly knew Anakin was super-powerful, though Qui-Gon figures it out. Again, I see a very likely response of 'I'm sure he had the potential to be a great Jedi and may even have instinctively used the Force somewhat, I bet if you test the Senate, you'll find a lot of elevated counts! They're the most successful politicians on their planet/sector! Being convincing, understanding the motives/intentions/plans and attempting to predict outcomes are all things that they try to do and being Force Sensitive helps with all of them!'

[Errorname]

Yeah, Windu wasn't letting Palpatine out of that room alive. With Palpatine dead there would be no Order 66, because as far as we're aware only Palpatine or Dooku knew about it and could initiate it.

Order 66 is one of a group of contingency orders, it's hidden within official protocols, and with Palpatine's death there's a few candidates for who would have the power to implement it, all of whom are in the tank for Palpatine and the Empire. Like if the Jedi kill Palpatine, the key difference is that Tarkin or Mas Amedda gives the Order instead, and while maybe Mace and Anakin can save some of the Jedi in the temple all of the Jedi out in the galaxy who died in Order 66 are still dying.

[ecarden]

Order 66 is one of a group of contingency orders, it's hidden within official protocols, and with Palpatine's death there's a few candidates for who would have the power to implement it, all of whom are in the tank for Palpatine and the Empire. Like if the Jedi kill Palpatine, the key difference is that Tarkin or Mas Amedda gives the Order instead, and while maybe Mace and Anakin can save some of the Jedi in the temple all of the Jedi out in the galaxy who died in Order 66 are still dying.

I really don't think so. For one thing, they don't know about the mind control, so from their perspective, the odds of that being obeyed are really, really low.

For another, at least Wookieepedia claims that the general orders could be activated by the chancellor, or the republic security council, with no mention of anyone else. Which makes sense, Palpatine hardly wants anyone else to be able to activate any of the other orders just by saying so (I mean, at least in Legends, one of those orders is 'kill the Chancellor, he's a traitor.' Again, this is from Legends, but there Order 66 expressly is stated as:

"In the event of Jedi officers acting against the interests of the Republic, and after receiving specific orders verified as coming directly from the Supreme Commander (Chancellor), GAR commanders will remove those officers by lethal force, and command of the GAR will revert to the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) until a new command structure is established."

Which makes a lot of sense. Palpatine's not real big on either information, or power sharing.

To the extent they even know they exist, they presumably lack the authority to trigger the mind control part of the plan, which is sort of critical to it actually working.

[Errorname]

I really don't think so. For one thing, they don't know about the mind control, so from their perspective, the odds of that being obeyed are really, really low.

I do not know that they don't. How much any given conspirator knows is frustratingly vague, but we're talking about his closest collaborators who were retained into the Imperial era. I don't know if Tarkin at this point knows Sheev is a sith, but Amedda does.

More to the point, I can't imagine Sheev not having a contingency for trying to take the Jedi down with him if they actually managed to kill him, and he already has a "kill all the jedi" protocol in place.

For another, at least Wookieepedia claims that the general orders could be activated by the chancellor, or the republic security council, with no mention of anyone else.

In the event of Palpatine's death, his Vice Chancellor Mas Amedda becomes acting chancellor.

[Mechalich]

Mas Amedda probably could in the event of Palpatine's death, execute Order 66. The likelihood that he would do so, however, is very low. Amedda is a toadying lickspittle no one likes with no personal power base, who is kept around by Palpatine due to his mastery of procedure and bureaucracy. This is, after all, the same man who surrenders the Empire post-Jakku. If Palpatine has an 'in case of my death' contingency, it's far more likely he trusts it to Sly Moore instead.

Order 66 (and the other contingency orders, which yes, were ported back into Disney canon) presumably unfolds through some really complex communications protocols. Palaptine probably has to sit at his desk and input about ten different passwords and authentications to make sure it goes out properly. The actual vocal command, which can be easily faked by basically any protocol droid, is the least important part. This might make it very difficult to issue the order, assuming the Jedi take control of the Chancellor's Office and shut down his comms.

If Order 66 is not issued, everything depends on what the Clones choose. In the wake of Palpatine's death, Mas Amedda will call a special session of the Senate and a new Chancellor will be chosen. Palpatine's faction will still have the votes, so the new Chancellor will be someone they would support, which is most likely to be Tarkin. If Tarkin becomes Chancellor and the clones remain loyal to the government, they the Jedi are getting booted off Coruscant and sent into exile, and Tarkin rules as Chancellor for Life as a one-party-state style autocrat. On the other hand, if the clones pick the Jedi, then the Jedi coup succeeds, the Senate is purged, and Bail Organa becomes Chancellor a year later. Yoda and the Jedi Council believe the clones will pick them. That strikes me as a very high-risk bet, but they are guided by the Force, so maybe it isn't.

I have to say, I find the concept of Tarkin's Republic a very intriguing AU scenario.

[Keltest]

Im not sure how Tarkin would become Chancellor given that he isnt a senator, but rather a member of the military.

[Errorname]

Mas Amedda probably could in the event of Palpatine's death, execute Order 66. The likelihood that he would do so, however, is very low. Amedda is a toadying lickspittle no one likes with no personal power base, who is kept around by Palpatine due to his mastery of procedure and bureaucracy. This is, after all, the same man who surrenders the Empire post-Jakku. If Palpatine has an 'in case of my death' contingency, it's far more likely he trusts it to Sly Moore instead.

Fair. Another possibility is that he'd just have some sort of Dead Man's Switch, but I can't see him not having some contingency to set off Order 66 after his death. Palpatine is not the kind of man who accepts defeat with grace.

If Order 66 is not issued, everything depends on what the Clones choose. In the wake of Palpatine's death, Mas Amedda will call a special session of the Senate and a new Chancellor will be chosen. Palpatine's faction will still have the votes, so the new Chancellor will be someone they would support, which is most likely to be Tarkin. If Tarkin becomes Chancellor and the clones remain loyal to the government, they the Jedi are getting booted off Coruscant and sent into exile, and Tarkin rules as Chancellor for Life as a one-party-state style autocrat. On the other hand, if the clones pick the Jedi, then the Jedi coup succeeds, the Senate is purged, and Bail Organa becomes Chancellor a year later. Yoda and the Jedi Council believe the clones will pick them. That strikes me as a very high-risk bet, but they are guided by the Force, so maybe it isn't.

I suspect without the chips the Clones end up with divided loyalties. Some battalions stay loyal to their immediate Jedi commanders, some side with the republic. The Wolfpack probably end up siding with Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi probably still gets iced by Bacara, that sort of thing.

In this scenario the most important divisions are the ones on Coruscant who can be mobilized for or against the coup, the 501st and the Coruscant Guard. The 501st are primarily loyal to Anakin, given the choice they'll follow him wherever he leads. The Coruscant Guard, however, are directly commanded by Palpatine and the Senate, and would absolutely side with his faction. I don't know how that shakes out, the Coruscant Guard seem to be a much bigger division than the 501st but the 501st are the best of the best and the Coruscant Guard very much are not. Could go either way.

I'm not sure how Tarkin would become Chancellor given that he isn't a senator, but rather a member of the military.

Tarkin being appointed to de facto head of state is something I could see, and of Sheev's inner circle I think he's the most likely to end up calling the shots in the event of a power vacuum, but he probably wouldn't take the title Chancellor.

[Keltest]

Tarkin being appointed to de facto head of state is something I could see, and of Sheev's inner circle I think he's the most likely to end up calling the shots in the event of a power vacuum, but he probably wouldn't take the title Chancellor.

But why though? Everything we've seen shows that he's actually pretty terrible at politics. He's responsible for a lot of the biggest rebel propaganda moments, like Alderaan, for example, and generally alienates everyone he works with. People don't like him or his ideas.

[Errorname]

But why though? Everything we've seen shows that he's actually pretty terrible at politics. He's responsible for a lot of the biggest rebel propaganda moments, like Alderaan, for example, and generally alienates everyone he works with. People don't like him or his ideas.

Tarkin is bad at counter-insurgency and prioritizes appearing strong over actually being strong, but those are strategic failures more than political ones. People who are bad at politicking don't rapidly rise through the ranks until they're running the entire military, and Tarkin's strong influence in the Empire in canon is what makes me think he's the most likely to take charge if Palpatine and Vader are out of the picture.

[Mechalich]

But why though? Everything we've seen shows that he's actually pretty terrible at politics. He's responsible for a lot of the biggest rebel propaganda moments, like Alderaan, for example, and generally alienates everyone he works with. People don't like him or his ideas.

Tarkin was, arguably, highest ranked official with any degree of operational independence in the Empire - various imperial advisors like Sate Prestage and Ars Dangor technically outranked him, but their power was entirely through their direct connection to Palpatine. He had sufficient authority to give Darth Vader orders in ANH and was granted massive authority to make huge decisions regarding Imperial policy, such as ending the Clone program and replacing them with Stormtroopers. His military doctrine, fatally flawed though it was, also achieved dominance in the Imperial military. Note that his primary competitor in this was Thrawn, and Tarkin beat him in the political arena, soundly. From the perspective of the kind of people who consider the Empire a horrifying monstrosity, yes, Tarkin is terrible, but from the perspective of the people ideologically inclined to support such a regime, he's very close to the ideal. The military brass and the regional governors would support him.

Tarkin being appointed to de facto head of state is something I could see, and of Sheev's inner circle I think he's the most likely to end up calling the shots in the event of a power vacuum, but he probably wouldn't take the title Chancellor.

Chancellor is the obvious move. Tarkin can get himself appointed to the Senate easily: his family controls the Senate seat represented by the Seswenna Sector which is controlled by his homeworld of Eriadu, which his family de facto rules. Using the existing title to maintain continuity of government and convince the politically disengaged that this isn't a big deal is logical. Now, I suspect that Tarkin would, if he claimed power for any significant length of time, grant himself some sort of grandiose military title like 'Galactic Admiral' or something and preferentially go by that in public, but he'd still maintain the Chancellor title.

After all, Tarkin's not a Sith Lord, and even if he was able to arrange for Order 66 to go off or to purge the Jedi through some other means, he'd be very vulnerable to Jedi assassination. In order to maintain power, he'd have to make sure that the Jedi consider assassination worse than the alternatives. This reality applies to anyone who isn't a Force user controlling the galaxy unless they have some other kind of failsafe.

[gbaji]

First off. A number of posters have commented on Kenobi's presentation of the Jedi order as this perfect thing, when his own history should have shown him otherwise. I don't know if that was so much about him personally viewing the Order though rose tinted glasses (or even retcon stuff), but the fact that he's trying to teach Luke to be a Jedi (or at least to embrace the Jedi teachings).

If you were trying to teach someone to embrace the ideals of some philsophy, would you focus on the failures of a previous organization in their application of said philosohy? Or would you focus on the actual ideals and hope that if those ideals were to be accepted, embraced, and then taught, that whatever new organization grows out of that, would be "better than" the one that failed? Put another way, if Kenobi taught Luke that "The Jedi were this failed order that got everything wrong about the force and how to use it, and then ultimately failed and allowed the Empire to rise", would Luke have ever spent the time and effort and gone on to proudlly proclaim "I'm a Jedi. Like my father", and actually thought that meant something significant/important?

No. Sometimes you have to focus on the positives if you want a positive result.

I'm sorry but that's a terrible argument. Why wouldn't you factor in how your decisions will make someone feel?
Or are you arguing the Jedi Council was right to not tell Anakin "hey it's okay Obi-Wan isn't actually dead he's just going undercover for us so we had to fake his death"?

Because the council expected Anakin to act like a Jedi Knight, and to set aside his personal feelings, and all of that other stuff that they thought they'd taught him, and he had learned and embraced, and should be embodying in his day to day actions and decisions.

I think folks are missing that the point of the Clone Wars is to show us the process by which the Republic and Jedi failed, one small step at a time. This is one of those steps. Is it a bit heavy handed? Sure. But they have to establish how Anakin comes to become Darth Vader. To do that they must show that he doesn't ever actually fully embrace (much less master) the Jedi teachings. Had he done so, he would have behaved as the Council expected, and accepted what they told them. He might even have meditated on it, and felt that there was something more to this, that he wasn't being told, but also accepted that. He might even have acted on that, but not gone in like full on bull in china shop, without ever even considering that the whole thing might have been a set up.

He *should* have sensed the truth of things. He *should* have felt that his master was still alive. And he *should* have therefore intuited what was going on, even without being told. That he failed to do those things, isn't a reflection of the council not realizing how he felt about things, but of his own inability to master the more subtle aspects of the force (ie: "be one with the force. follow where it leads. don't force it to your will, but let it guide your actions"). The council made the mistake of assuming that Anakin had learned these lessons. That he didn't shows us one of the reasons why he falls and becomes Vader later on.

They did not believe the trial would be fair. They knew it wouldn't be. Mace Windu even argued that they had to banish Ahsoka from the Order so she could stand trial as a civilian otherwise it would be seen as an act of opposition to the Senate. They were sending Ahsoka to die so that the Republic wouldn't lose faith in them, just like they didn't tell anyone that the clones were bankrolled by Count Dooku because the Republic would lose faith in the Jedi and the war itself.

It's pretty clear where the Jedi Order's allegiance lied in the final years of the Republic.

Right. And this was another one of those (again somewhat hamfisted) arcs in Clone Wars that is showing us how/why the Republic and Jedi fell. At this point in time, the Jedi themselves are so intertwined with the war going on, and the political factors going on, that they are basically trapped by it.

Siddious has been slowly corrupting the Jedi Order though the entire process of the Clone Wars. The moment they take the clone army and use it to fight against the Separatists at Genosia, the Jedi are set on a path that traps them. They have to conceal things that become increasingly problematic. The origin of the clones themselves, being one. And yeah, as they personally become more involved in the day to day operations of the war, the more they become tied to the processes and politics of it. Which is not something the Order is actually very good at.

One small step at a time, they've been manipulated into a position where it is actually quite easy for Palpatine to make his "Jedi have betayed us!" claim, and actually have a boatload of evidence to support the claim.

Which, again, was the point of this arc. Well, that and to remove Ahsoka from Anakin, so as to align things up with the final bits that are detailed in RotS.

This argument does not withstand scrutiny. The Jedi Council did not want Anakin to become a Jedi and they treated him quite coldly as a result. They couldn't exactly stop Anakin from becoming a Jedi after all, because Obi-Wan was going to train him regardless, so they put the kid on a leash instead. The distance they kept Anakin at allowed Palpatine to get his claws into him, turning who would have been the Jedi Order's greatest defense against the Sith into their greatest weakness.

Eh. We could also argue that they were actually correct, and that Anakin was too old to begin training, and they should have refused it. They didn't put Anakin on any tighter leash than they put all of the other Jedi Kights on. He just couldn't handle it, having lived too many of his formative years not in a Jedi temple being trained in the mindset needed to actually be a Jedi.

If anything, their mistake was in giving Anakin that much training and power and trust in the first place. But... again... small steps taken over time, each one seeming minor, add up to a major effect over time. That's kinda the whole theme/point of the PT (and CW). There is no one single conflict or decision that leads them to disaster here. There's no one point where you can say "if they'd just done this one thing differently, everything would have been fine".

Even the training of Anakin, while significant based on what did happen, was not a single definiing thing. Palpatine's plan did not require Anakin to work. He could have continued to use Doku, or found another apprentice who was properly placed and/or groomed for the role. Anakin just happened to be the exact right set of things he was looking for. I suppose we could argue that the biggest faiilng of the Jedi is that they could not see the same patterns that Palpatine could, and thus failed to react to them (which was like totally foreshadowed multiple times by Windu and Yoda talking about how their sight was being blocked/shrouded/whatever). I suppose we could also say that the Jedi knew that they were flying blind into danger, but continued anyway, because that was all they knew how to do. One of the problems with a group trained to "trust in the force", and allow themselves to be guided by it, is that if someone can manipulate what you can see (and what you can't), they can manipulate you very very easily.

It's one of the reasons I actually like the PT a lot. Yes, it has flaws. But the overall story is quite good. And I particularly like the theme of "you can't stop being who you are", which is prevalent through the whole thing. It's also a wonderful set up to the events in the OT, and makes Luke's actions and decisions all the more meaningful and powerful (which was kind of the whole point). It's an excellent setup and bookend for the OT, so it absolutely succeeds at what it was intended to do.

The ST, on the other hand...

[Errorname]

First off. A number of posters have commented on Kenobi's presentation of the Jedi order as this perfect thing, when his own history should have shown him otherwise. I don't know if that was so much about him personally viewing the Order though rose tinted glasses (or even retcon stuff), but the fact that he's trying to teach Luke to be a Jedi (or at least to embrace the Jedi teachings).

It makes perfect sense for Obi-Wan to speak fondly of the Jedi, both from a personal (he probably does have fond memories of days gone by) and pragmatic (he needs to convince Luke to become a Jedi) perspective. I wasn't nitpicking the Original trilogy here, I brought it up as an example of how narrative-wise a story can get away with presenting an institution as an uncomplicated good (which New Hope at least very much does) when that institution's role in the narrative is as a lost glory day that our hero is aspiring to.

The narrative role of an institution that is no longer an active force within the story is different than the role of one that is still alive and powerful.

Because the council expected Anakin to act like a Jedi Knight, and to set aside his personal feelings, and all of that other stuff that they thought they'd taught him, and he had learned and embraced, and should be embodying in his day to day actions and decisions.

I do think their treatment of Anakin shows a flaw, which is that the order when handling a member with pretty normal discipline problems (missing home, secret affair) is utterly incapable of doing anything productive. Anakin is not unwilling to seek their counsel, but Yoda and Mace are utterly unable to give any good advice beyond "simply do not"

Right. And this was another one of those (again somewhat hamfisted) arcs in Clone Wars that is showing us how/why the Republic and Jedi fell. At this point in time, the Jedi themselves are so intertwined with the war going on, and the political factors going on, that they are basically trapped by it.

I will say that the implied prior status quo of "The Jedi handle investigating crimes committed by Jedi internally" is also not good.

[Mechalich]

I do think their treatment of Anakin shows a flaw, which is that the order when handling a member with pretty normal discipline problems (missing home, secret affair) is utterly incapable of doing anything productive. Anakin is not unwilling to seek their counsel, but Yoda and Mace are utterly unable to give any good advice beyond "simply do not"

Organizations that have rules enforcing celibacy/chastity often have really huge problems addressing them because it's hard to handle something that is being widely violated and that the institution officially pretends never happens, especially as the people who rise to the top of the institution may be unusual types who simply don't struggle with this specific issue. In Legends, for example, the whole post-Ruusan 'no attachments' rule was primarily imposed by Master of the Order Fae Coven, who was a Jenet. Jenets have nothing like human romantic pair bonds and care for their precocious children collectively. The system the Jedi Order used was almost perfectly suited to Jenets and it is likely that Master Coven had no idea how much trouble this would create for Humans down the line.

I believe that the Jedi, like most institutions with similar rules, almost certainly had an informal or quasi-formal system in place to address breaches of the 'no attachments' rule along the lines of a secret affair. However, because Anakin was not raised within the Order, he doesn't know what they are and doesn't understand how that while sleeping with Padme is very much not okay (and it's a major breach of professional discipline above and beyond any specific celibacy rules), there are ways things could be swept under the rug. Of course, he makes it way, way worse by marrying her, which might have forced the Order's hand should the truth come out.

All this means that while Anakin does seek out counsel, he's always holding back when he does, and people like Yoda - who fundamentally don't understand what he's struggling with because they simply don't experience such struggle - are unable to discern what's wrong. In RotS, Yoda recognizes that Anakin's worried about someone 'close to you,' but he almost certainly thinks its some comrade of Anakin's, not a secret lover (with the benefit of TCW as context, it likely that Yoda thinks it's Ahsoka, who Anakin sent into extreme danger on Mandalore). Yoda's response, if directed regarding a comrade engaged in the battles of the Clone Wars, is much more sensible.

One thing the KOTOR/SWTOR versions of the Order do show is an Order with a looser understanding of the 'no attachments' rule. One in which Jedi can make mistakes but still be forgiven and move on. After all, Satele Shan went so far as to have and raise a son yet still became the Order's Grandmaster.

I will say that the implied prior status quo of "The Jedi handle investigating crimes committed by Jedi internally" is also not good.

Agreed. The relationship between the Jedi Order and the government has always been ill-defined and problematic. The Order is a religious institution but performs high-level paramilitary duties for a distinctly secular government. Such a relationship is inherently fraught. While it's not unreasonable for the Jedi Order to take the lead in investigating its own members - most government institutions and law enforcement organizations all do this, and there are solid security reasons why this is so (ie. Jedi get up to all kinds of stuff that involves high level clearance, so someone with similar clearance needs to conduct the investigation to avoid compromising security), the Jedi Order apparently lacks a proper internal affairs department - though the Temple Guard could and should fill this role - and probably lacks an outside authority with the ultimate oversight responsibility, though maybe the Senate has that authority and could utilize the Senate Guard as fallback investigators/prosecutors, but by the time of TCW, those institutions are basically defunct.

This is another example of how using the PT Era as a model is troubling, because everything is broken.

[Infernally Clay]

He *should* have sensed the truth of things. He *should* have felt that his master was still alive. And he *should* have therefore intuited what was going on, even without being told. That he failed to do those things, isn't a reflection of the council not realizing how he felt about things, but of his own inability to master the more subtle aspects of the force (ie: "be one with the force. follow where it leads. don't force it to your will, but let it guide your actions"). The council made the mistake of assuming that Anakin had learned these lessons. That he didn't shows us one of the reasons why he falls and becomes Vader later on.

If Anakin was already meant to know I don't believe the Council would have deliberated on whether or not they should let him know. I don't think this particular arc was meant to say "these are the ways in which Anakin failed as a Jedi", but "these are the ways the Jedi failed Anakin".

To be honest that's a major recurring theme of The Clone Wars. Anakin was a troubled and conflicted young man (he's only 22 in Revenge of the Sith, remember), sure, but he was also a hero. It's practically impossible to accurately count how many lives he saved in three short years, yet the Jedi Council never really treated him as one of their own or gave him so much as a pat on the back. They made it so easy for Palpatine to scoop in there and give Anakin that recognition and encouragement, that validation he needed and wanted.

You can say a Jedi isn't meant to want these things, but then that goes back to The Phantom Menace and Qui-Gon's paternal role in Anakin's life. He knew what Anakin needed, the guidance he'd need. Anakin needed a father figure and his two choices were Qui-Gon or Palpatine and we all know which one he ended up with.

[Keltest]

If Anakin was already meant to know I don't believe the Council would have deliberated on whether or not they should let him know. I don't think this particular arc was meant to say "these are the ways in which Anakin failed as a Jedi", but "these are the ways the Jedi failed Anakin".

To be honest that's a major recurring theme of The Clone Wars. Anakin was a troubled and conflicted young man (he's only 22 in Revenge of the Sith, remember), sure, but he was also a hero. It's practically impossible to accurately count how many lives he saved in three short years, yet the Jedi Council never really treated him as one of their own or gave him so much as a pat on the back. They made it so easy for Palpatine to scoop in there and give Anakin that recognition and encouragement, that validation he needed and wanted.

You can say a Jedi isn't meant to want these things, but then that goes back to The Phantom Menace and Qui-Gon's paternal role in Anakin's life. He knew what Anakin needed, the guidance he'd need. Anakin needed a father figure and his two choices were Qui-Gon or Palpatine and we all know which one he ended up with.

Anakin knew Qui-gon for like a week, and frankly theres not a lot of indication that Qui-gon could have handled Anakin any better than Obi-wan did. Remember that Qui-gon was even more an advocate of the living force than most Jedi, a firebrand who did what he felt was necessary regardless of what the other Jedi said or thought, and that it was actively holding him back in the Order. Anakin almost certainly would not have gotten what he was looking for from Qui-gon's tutelage.

[Peelee]

the Jedi Council never really treated him as one of their own or gave him so much as a pat on the back.

"We will bend the rules so you can join us, immediately pair you with a Jedi knight, and give you missions just like any other Jedi".

How, exactly, do they "not treat Anakin as one of their own"?

[Aeson]

Anakin knew Qui-gon for like a week, and frankly theres not a lot of indication that Qui-gon could have handled Anakin any better than Obi-wan did. Remember that Qui-gon was even more an advocate of the living force than most Jedi, a firebrand who did what he felt was necessary regardless of what the other Jedi said or thought, and that it was actively holding him back in the Order. Anakin almost certainly would not have gotten what he was looking for from Qui-gon's tutelage.

While that may be true, I would point out that Qui-Gon is a (much) older, more experienced master than Obi-Wan. He might not be the "best" candidate to train Anakin, rein in the worst of his excesses, and raise him up as a dogmatic Jedi, but conventional wisdom says that problem students are better handled by experienced an experienced teacher than dumped on one fresh out of college.

Additionally, I'm unconvinced that Qui-Gon being the kind of Jedi who does what he feels is necessary regardless of what the others say or think is a particularly strong argument for him being less able to give Anakin what Anakin was looking for from Jedi training than Obi-Wan. This might have made Qui-Gon less suited to giving Anakin what Anakin needed from Jedi training, but I don't think it's particularly contrary to what Anakin wanted from it, unless maybe we're talking about Anakin, the old man weighed down by regrets who we glimpse in Return of the Jedi, rather than Anakin, the headstrong and impulsive young man we see in Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith.