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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2024

    Post [D&D 3.5 Planescape] Optimizing a zenythri monk-like swordsage

    Hi guys, nice to meet y'all!

    So, I've always liked the concept of the monk class, but unfortunately in 3.5 it sucks a lil'. Thus, for my Planescape campaign, I decided to create a swordsage character. My only problem is that the DM does not allow class variants, so I had to take 2 levels in monk and then start with swordsage.

    I wanna start by saying that the campaign is pretty difficult: foes are tough in combat, and the other players are all optimizing lovely bastards that know every single rule (which makes me the noob in the party ). Jokes aside, their characters are really insane, I just wish to keep up a lil'

    I'm at a point where I don't know how to proceed to optimize my build, so I'm asking for your help.
    My character is a zenythri (archetype: draconic creature) monk (first 2 levels) and swordsage 3 (the next 3) with the following stats:
    STR 18, DEX 21, CON 13, INT 12, WIS 14, CHA 10.
    I've taken the following feats: Dodge, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse,
    Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus) on Setting Sun weapons, Adaptive Style.

    The maneuvers I possess are: Mighty Throw, Counter Charge, Shadow Blade Technique, Cloak of Deception, Charging Minotaur, Mountain Hammer, Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike.

    Stances: Child of Shadows and Hunter's Sense.

    Cool thing about my campaign is that we get a new feat every odd-numbered level (so 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 and so on...). That's basically the only homerule we got, and aside that, our DM is pretty RAW on everything.
    I can only take 4 classes (one of which is gotta be a prestige class. Since my character is a monk/swordsage, there's room for 1 base class and 1 prestige class more, or 2 prestige classes).

    Every setting campaign handbook is not allowed (like Forgotten Realms handbook or Dragonlance handbook, for example) plus every psionic related thing and the following prestige classes:
    - Dweomerkeeper (Complete Divine WE)
    - Effigy Master (Complete Arcane)
    - Dungeon Lord (Dungeonscape)
    - Shadow Sentinel (Races of Destiny)
    - Fiendbinder (Tome of Magic)
    - War Hulk (Miniatures Handbook)

    So, my question is: any idea, suggestion or tip on how should I proceed from here? I was thinking of continuing with swordsage for a few levels (I'm not sure how many yet), then possibly taking bloodclaw master (the array of feats related to TWF, combined with Raging Mongoose and Time Stands Still would allow me, at higher levels, to make a lot of hits in a full attack turn) and finally, once I've met the right requirements, master of nine.
    However, other players have warned me about bloodclaw master and how this pc is possibly a scam (lol!), noting that the swordsage's BAB itself is pretty low for a melee. They said, and I quote: "Making 20 attacks is pointless if they all miss!". They kinda have a point lol
    So, how can I proceed from here? Should I try to optimize my damage output as much as possible? Should I try to make a lot of attacks and crit fishing? Should I try master of nine ad get all the maneuvers? Should I try all of these things?

    Thanks in advance!

    p.s.: I wish to keep my "monk flavor" and stay unarmed, if that's possible.
    Last edited by Rumble; 2024-03-20 at 02:23 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2012

    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Planescape] Optimizing a zenythri monk-like swordsage

    Since you're doing Monk 2 anyway, look into Invisible Fist alternate class feature. Trade Evasion (which you'll eventually get from Swordsage anyway, if you want it) for an immediate action invisibility you can spam every 3 rounds for defense. Combined w/ Cloak of Deception maneuver, you can spend more than half of combat invisible if you want.
    Could also look at the variant monk styles to get Improved Trip early (Passive Way) if you want to use Setting Sun throw maneuvers, or other options.

    If you want a prestige class, don't look at Bloodclaw Master. It's short and bad. Shadow Sun Ninja is basically intended to be a Monk/Swordsage prestige class and is...kinda decent. It's best if you can be undead (Necropolitan is the easiest way) or have an undead or tomb-tainted ally or cohort (tomb-tainted soul requires being non-good and Shadow Sun Ninja requires good, so you can't take it, yourself). That's b/c its best ability is right at level 1: a yin-yang positive/negative touch attack that alternates between the two. The former heals living / hurts undead, the latter does the reverse. So if someone in the party is undead (or treated as such for negative energy), it's infinite healing. The damage/heal amount is unarmed damage dice + Wis bonus, so cranking up your unarmed base damage (Improved Natural Attack, Superior Unarmed Strike, and... if possible.... a Greater Mighty Wallop spell from an allied wizard or sorcerer) brings great results.

    If Shadow Sun Ninja doesn't interest you, you're better off just staying Swordsage or building for Master of Nine, but you'd want to enter that later and ideally add some Warblade and/or Crusader first to access the best maneuvers in the game (White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge) and some of the strongest disciplines in general (White Raven, Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart) that swordsage doesn't have access to.

    The best prestige classes in Tome of Battle are the two gish ones that obviously you can't do (Jade Pheonix Mage and Ruby Knight Vindicator), Master of Nine (but only 5 levels and PAINFUL entry requirements), and Eternal Blade (which is Elf-only, medium BAB unfriendly, and high level entry). Shadow Sun Ninja is mediocre but has some niche uses. The rest are downright terrible, IMO.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2024

    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Planescape] Optimizing a zenythri monk-like swordsage

    Uhm, okay, that's interesting... I guess I gotta check some Iron Chef optimization thread on the Shadow Sun Ninja, then.
    Thanks a lot!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2012

    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Planescape] Optimizing a zenythri monk-like swordsage

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumble View Post
    Uhm, okay, that's interesting... I guess I gotta check some Iron Chef optimization thread on the Shadow Sun Ninja, then.
    Thanks a lot!
    Things to note about SSN:
    - Its prerequisites actually fold completely into Master of Nine's, so a build w/ both is quite feasible, or at least as feasible as master of nine in general.
    - If you actually do multiclass 3 or (with master of nine) 4 medium BAB classes, your BAB is going to be utter garbage for a long time, like wizard-bad or worse. If you stick to single attack strikes, it's probably ok, but give up any delusions of TWF or full attack builds.
    - It not only limits you to only two disciplines, it's also a much slower maneuver/stance progression than Swordsage AND you don't get to up-trade for higher level maneuvers at even levels like you can w/ Swordsage 4, 6, 8, etc... (same applies to all base classes vs. prestige classes, but swordsage --> SSN is one of the more massive shifts in what you get).

    So that's why I say it's mediocre... unless you really love the class features, advancing Swordsage is better b/c you'll get more high level maneuvers and more variety in what you can pick. Even if you do go into SSN, you might want to choose when you take levels in it and learn new maneuvers/stance so they happen at levels you'd have chosen a Setting Sun or Shadow Hand option anyway (based on what your initiator level would be). Usually w/ a prestige class, the mindset is once you enter it, you just keep progressing it until you finish or go into another prestige class. With SSN, definitely don't feel like you shouldn't go back to Swordsage or put a lot of levels into it. Just get what you want when you need it and get out.

    Person_Man had some neat tricks to do w/ SSN, but they generally require multiclassing w/ stuff you don't have or high level SSN abilities, and I'm not really sold on if it's worth the effort for how niche the tricks are.

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