Build Help - Ruby Knight Vindicator

[Kyle_Lokharte]

Hi friends!

I'm trying to narrow down how to build a Ruby Knight Vindicator for an upcoming Kingmaker campaign being run exclusively in 3.5 (no Pathfinder) and I'm hoping I can get some help in figuring things out.

What I have concretely so far:

• Ability Scores (Unassigned): 7, 8, 13, 14, 15, 16
• Multiclass: Cloistered Ceric X / Crusader X / RKV X
• Race: Human or Lesser Aasimar
• Deity: Wee Jas (Required)
• Flaws: Murky-Eyed and Shaky
• Domains: Knowledge, Law, Planning
• Bonus Feats: Knowledge Devotion, Law Devotion, Extend Spell, +2 Unassigned
• Banned: Book of Exalted Deeds and Vile Darkness

I've crunched numbers and read guides, and am considering the following multiclass builds:

• Cloistered Cleric 4 / Crusader 1 / RKV 10
• Cloistered Cleric 2 / Crusader 3 / RKV 10
• Cloistered Cleric 1 / Crusader 4 / RKV 10

My specific questions are as follows:

1. Which build and ability score distribution would be best suited to a 1-10 environment for a RKV focusing on self-buffing and melee combat? For 11-20?
2. Would spells or maneuvers (or a balance) be more effective in a 1-10 environment?
3. How effectively could I incorporate Divine Metamagic into my build given my ability scores? Would Persist or Quicken be better overall?
4. Are there any alternative class options or feat choices I should consider for enhancing my character's effectiveness in combat?

I'd appreciate any help, insight, or suggestions anyone can offer.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I haven't gotten to play one, but I've thought about a build a fair bit. I think Cloistered Cleric 4 / Crusader 1 is the best entry option (obviously... CL is supreme, but also because Crusader 2 gives almost nothing and your IL advances at 1/2 rate anyway so CC 3 / Crusader 2 is the same IL anyway).
One thing I noticed was the IL you enter with is not...ideal... for when you acquire maneuvers and stances. Pushing it back by taking 2 levels in Divine Oracle (or just taking Cloistered Cleric to 6, if you're averse to too much dipping) so you enter RKV 1st level as IL 5 and can immediately take Thicket of Blades stance works better, I think. And then again after the first five levels of RKV, spacing out another 2 levels of cleric casting progression (Divine Oracle, Contemplative, or just the base class) before continuing is also good. Then your RKV 6 stance is IL 11 (RKV 6 + Crusader 1 + half of "other stuff" 8), and you can take one of the excellent 6th level Devoted Spirit stances.
I mean, if optimizing your maneuver/stance acquisition is important to you. If you just want the Divine Impetus ASAP, then ignore everything I said.

For stats... Wis > Str = Con > Dex = Int > Cha (unless you're relying on Cha for turn undead uses b/c the DM limited other options, then it's up there w/ Str/Con). You can make up for bad Dex w/ heavy armor, but even in full plate, you can get mithral and benefit from up to a +3 Dex w/ items.... Int I just never want negative, skill points are nice (and if you're rocking Knowledge Devotion, it's even more important...possibly more than Str). That's my preferences. That 7 is gonna hurt bad no matter where it goes. Melee-focused Cleric is MAD, you kinda want everything decent.

Stances/maneuvers: I'd favor these...
Maneuvers (initial 5 at Crusader 1): Battle Leader's Charge, Shield Block, Mountain Hammer, Foehammer, Tactical Strike
From RKV: Choose among WR Tactics, Shadow Garrotte, Divine Surge, Crushing Vise, Clarion Call, Ancient Mountain Hammer, Shadow Blink, Shield Counter, WR Hammer
Stances: Leading the Charge (qualify for 2nd level WR maneuvers and WR Tactics w/o taking the awful 1st level WR maneuvers), Thicket of Blades, Aura of Perfect Order

Spells: Lore of the Gods for a +5 or +10 bonus to knowledge checks for 10 min/CL is amazing. Knight's Move is a swift action teleport into flanking position (and oddly transmutation, not conjuration, so it may work in places that most teleports don't), could be good in a wand (chambered in your weapon), though the shadow hand teleports can obsolete it later on if you choose them.

Feats: Unless you're putting a good stat in Cha or the DM is crazy and lets you stack nightsticks like it's a log cabin, I wouldn't bother w/ DMM. Use your turn undeads for divine impetus and before that, Travel Devotion or Law Devotion. Obviously Practiced Spellcaster. Combat Reflexes if you have a decent Dex (another reason to not dump it) to use w/ Thicket of Blades. Extend Spell is a generally solid low-cost metamagic for buff spells. I forget what Wee Jas gets for domains, but if your deity has War Domain, Holy Warrior is an amazing reserve feat for higher level melee clerics, up to +9 damage on all attacks (bonus damage equal to highest level War domain spell you have prepared).

[Kyle_Lokharte]

Thank you, this is exactly the info I needed!

Regarding Build Route
I'm also leaning toward the Cloistered Cleric 4 / Crusader 1 entry. I did some number crunching, and I might have made a mistake, but it seems that the benefit for the other two build options are that they can take Thicket of Blades immediately upon RKV entry. Some notes below:

CLR = Cleric
CRU = Crusader
RKV = Ruby Knight Vindicator
LVL = Level

At 5th Character Level

1. CLR 4 / CRU 1 = 2nd LVL Maneuvers (as 3rd LVL Initiator) and 2nd LVL Spells (as 4th LVL Caster)
2. CLR 2 / CRU 3 = 2nd LVL Maneuvers (as 4th LVL Initiator) and 1st LVL Spells (as 2nd LVL Caster)
3. CLR 1 / CRU 4 = 2nd LVL Maneuvers (as 4th LVL Initiator) and 1st LVL Spells (as 1st LVL Caster)

It seems build 2 and 3 can select Thicket of Blades at 6th LVL, given RKV 1 will bump them to 5th LVL Initiator and enable 3rd LVL Maneuvers.

At 10th Character Level

1. CLR 4 / CRU 1 / RKV 5 = 4th LVL Maneuvers (as 8th LVL Initiator) and 4th LVL Spells (as 8th LVL Caster)
2. CLR 2 / CRU 3 / RKV 5 = 5th LVL Maneuvers (as 9th LVL Initiator) and 4th LVL Spells (as 6th LVL Caster)
3. CLR 1 / CRU 4 / RKV 5 = 5th LVL Maneuvers (as 9th LVL Initiator) and 3rd LVL Spells (as 5th LVL Caster)

By this point, it seems that build 1 becomes, arguably, clearly superior given the better Caster Level at barely any cost in Initiator Level compared to builds 2 and 3.

Given that info, I think you're totally right, that build 1 or a modified version thereof is the way to go. Your suggestion to push build 1's first RKV level back 2 levels to hit Initiator Level 5 upon entry makes total sense.

Regarding Stats
Thank you, that offers a lot of clarity for my situation. Given the MAD nature of the melee cleric and my stat rolls + assignment needs, do you think I'd be better off focusing on a primary casting role instead? It's something I've considered, but a large part of me simply wants to do the melee build.

Regarding Maneuvers, Spells, Feats, Domains
This is great, thank you! All that info helps me out a ton. I'll forgo the Divine Metamagic in favor of the Devotions and other uses, it seems the wiser choice, as you suggest.

For domains, DM is enforcing deity limits on prestige class selections, and Wee Jas is the only entry for RKV as a result. This leaves me the following domain options:

• Death, Domination, Inquisition, Law, Magic, Mind, Patience, Planning, Portal, Portal (alt), Repose, Pride, Tyranny

With Cloistered Cleric, I can snag Knowledge and trade it for Knowledge Devotion. I figure Planning is good for the Extend Spell, and Law for the Law Devotion. I do wish I could snag Travel somehow though.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It seems build 2 and 3 can select Thicket of Blades at 6th LVL, given RKV 1 will bump them to 5th LVL Initiator and enable 3rd LVL Maneuvers.

Well yes, but at that point you're losing 3 or 4 caster levels even before the two you'll lose from RKV. If you want to be more of a melee person that just has some backup casting I guess it's workable, but even w/ Practiced Spellcaster you won't be able to do much.
Made more sense to me to just delay RKV stuff a bit and not lose more CL.

Given that info, I think you're totally right, that build 1 or a modified version thereof is the way to go. Your suggestion to push build 1's first RKV level back 2 levels to hit Initiator Level 5 upon entry makes total sense.

I suppose one thing to note is that a Crusader 1 / RKV 10 will only hit IL 15 for an 8th level stance at level 19, one level too late to pick up w/ your last pre-epic feat. If you care about getting one. To me, that's so far off and I almost never play high levels anyway, it doesn't matter. But if it does to you, you end up having to make a hard choice of getting another Crusader level in there (and thus losing 4 CL and not getting 9th level spells like Miracle...bad trade, IMO) or giving up on an 8th level stance. Personally I like Aura of Perfect Order better than the 8th level stance choices anyway.

Regarding Stats
Thank you, that offers a lot of clarity for my situation. Given the MAD nature of the melee cleric and my stat rolls + assignment needs, do you think I'd be better off focusing on a primary casting role instead? It's something I've considered, but a large part of me simply wants to do the melee build.

You can make it work. It's just about "sacrificing" things. Like giving up on DMM shenanigans by taking the Charisma hit. You can still get a +6 Cha item and maybe some items for turn uses (DM might allow one nightstick, for example) to have enough turn uses for some Divine Impetus and/or travel/law devotion. But no way are you going to have half a dozen or so per use of DMM Persist.
Likewise... you don't need Thicket of Blades and being an AoO build, could pick a different stance and can use heavy armor to shore up your AC. It's certainly not ideal, but it's an option. And again... Dex +6 item eventually can help. You just want to get to like Dex 14-16 in the end, that should be enough to get max AC and enough AoOs per round for most combats.
Stats is basically a wealth question. How easy or difficult you expect the DM to make it for you to find/buy magic items and maintain wealth. Taking Craft Wondrous Item feat might be quite useful for you, even more so than it is in general.
Str, Con, and (if using Knowledge Devotion) Int are all stats you want, but they don't need to be high.... A small bonus is sufficient.

So like... you could do Str 15, Dex 8, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 7 (or swap Str and Con)
As long as you can buy/find/craft stat boosting items, you can eventually have Dex 14 and Cha 13. Never need to touch Int, though eventually a +2 for +1 on knowledges might be worth it. Str and Con you'd want to eventually have at least +4. Wis obviously +6 and raise it every 4th level (or even out your odd scores...).
Biggest problem is not qualifying for Combat Reflexes for a long time. You could do Str 8, Dex 13 to solve that and just not actually be good at melee until you get Str boosters, but I think that'd be a far more miserable low level experience. Even w/o Combat Reflexes, Thicket of Blades will give you one AoO per round at least.

For domains, DM is enforcing deity limits on prestige class selections, and Wee Jas is the only entry for RKV as a result. This leaves me the following domain options:

• Death, Domination, Inquisition, Law, Magic, Mind, Patience, Planning, Portal, Portal (alt), Repose, Pride, Tyranny

With Cloistered Cleric, I can snag Knowledge and trade it for Knowledge Devotion. I figure Planning is good for the Extend Spell, and Law for the Law Devotion. I do wish I could snag Travel somehow though.

Can't you just buy Travel Devotion as a feat normally? You just don't get to trade a domain to get it free. That domain list isn't terrible. I think you made the right choices, and some of the others might be decent later on from Contemplative. I think Divine Oracle just gives you its domain regardless of the deity's portfolio, and I suggested it b/c it's super easy and low level to enter as a filler. But cloistered cleric itself is a pretty nice chassis, it's not so bad to just advance it more.