Strongest possible pure monk

[notthegiant]

Monks are considered the weakest class in the game by most of the community, with their tiny ki pool and inability to do cool stuff without spending their ki. But how strong could you make a pure monk, assuming your DM is fine with ridiculous optimization? Anything in an official published book is fair game except multiclassing. Any level is fine as long as it's strong for the tier.

[Kane0]

Way of mercy, dedicated weapon, the gunner feat and a dragonhide belt can do wonders.

[Psyren]

Kensei archer is a pretty good monk too, especially if +X weapons are hard to come by in your campaign(s). Deft Strike and Focused Aim both give you reliable means of activating your bonus action arrow shot via Ki-Fueled Attack; at low levels when you're more ki-starved you can also make do with the far weaker but free Kensei's Shot instead.

If what you want is a strong melee monk, your best bet is to wait for the massively buffed version coming out later this year, but you can build something serviceable with Mercy.

[Unoriginal]

Monks are considered the weakest class in the game by most of the community, with their tiny ki pool and inability to do cool stuff without spending their ki. But how strong could you make a pure monk, assuming your DM is fine with ridiculous optimization? Anything in an official published book is fair game except multiclassing. Any level is fine as long as it's strong for the tier.

A Variant Human Open Hand Monk with Fighting Initiate for the Unarmed Fighting Style, with as high a DEX as possible, will reliably tear through tier 1.

[notthegiant]

Way of mercy, dedicated weapon, the gunner feat and a dragonhide belt can do wonders.

Kensei archer is a pretty good monk too, especially if +X weapons are hard to come by in your campaign(s). Deft Strike and Focused Aim both give you reliable means of activating your bonus action arrow shot via Ki-Fueled Attack; at low levels when you're more ki-starved you can also make do with the far weaker but free Kensei's Shot instead.

If what you want is a strong melee monk, your best bet is to wait for the massively buffed version coming out later this year, but you can build something serviceable with Mercy.

What's so good about Mercy? I've heard a lot of people say it's really strong and I don't see how it's much stronger than any other subclass.

[Witty Username]

Belt of storm giant strength gets you strength 29, I think that is the highest possible in the system for monks...

Gunner/crossbow expert + Sharpshooter is probably the strongest martial build available and doesn't really change much with monks.

Gunner works better than crossbow expert for monks because the bonus action attack doesn't give them very much.

For melee builds,
GWM is on the table but that requires an Armor build that am not personally sold on.
Other builds don't really have much in the way of moving parts. PAM doesn't give much, Dual wielder never gives much and is redundant.
So stick+hand is what we got, longsword if you can get it for a slightly better stick.
Mercy is probably the best to go with for melee, hands of harm is a pretty effective damage+debuff perk.

So Mercy,
Hand of healing is a small but pretty effective support ability
Hands of harm is a two fold ability, first it is flurry of blows damage in a more reliable way and is a garunteed poisoning (disadvantage on all attacks and checks is pretty good, and without a save is pretty nuts)
And at 11th they both free stack with flurry (healing becomes a time free add to the attack line, and harm becomes a straight buff to flurry's damage)

What this amounts to is Mercy is the best melee damage dealer as far as monks go, ranged less so but it still has utility offers that can be worth it.

If what you want is a strong melee monk, your best bet is to wait for the massively buffed version coming out later this year, but you can build something serviceable with Mercy.

Did the playtest verson change significantly? The last discussion I remember on the subject was LudicSavant's concerns and how the nerfs to the class felt.

[Kane0]

What's so good about Mercy? I've heard a lot of people say it's really strong and I don't see how it's much stronger than any other subclass.

When you flurry you can trade one punch for a spot-heal. So given the average monk's speed to maneuver and deliver (especially if playing with a ranged weapon) its a lot like a healing word except it can't be counterspelled and you still get to punch if needed. Plus it's more efficient than Quickened Healing.
You also get mini-smites for when you aren't burning Ki on stun attempts or focused aim (or before level 5). It also upgrades to a no-save poisoned condition which is great when you come up against something that you can use it on (but don't want to got for a stun instead).

Ascendant Dragon monk is pretty fun too, its subclass benefits get a few free uses before eating up your Ki which feels great during play. The breath weapon replaces one attack rather than a whole action or bonus action too, so that's great.

And Kensei with a ranged weapon is more or less the meta. It makes good use of weird mechanical interactions for your action economy and makes good use of all the monk goodies useful for being away from melee like your bonus speed, deflect missiles and evasion.

[Psyren]

What's so good about Mercy? I've heard a lot of people say it's really strong and I don't see how it's much stronger than any other subclass.

The big benefit to Mercy is that it gives extra damage as well as a powerful debuff with no save, all for doing the thing you'd likely be doing anyway (spamming FoB) and at no extra cost. Its healing abilities are just icing on the cake.

Did the playtest verson change significantly? The last discussion I remember on the subject was LudicSavant's concerns and how the nerfs to the class felt.

I have no idea which LudicSavant post you're referring to, but the latest playtest monk got the highest survey rating out of any playtest class they've released so far (over 90%) as well as rave reviews from a number of prominent optimizers.

[Witty Username]

I have no idea which LudicSavant post you're referring to, but the latest playtest monk got the highest survey rating out of any playtest class they've released so far (over 90%) as well as rave reviews from a number of prominent optimizers.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...its-Subclasses

Phone isn't cooperating, but here is the thread I was thinking of.

I wouldn't be surprised if stuff changed, I only half pay attention to the playtest material.

[gooch]

If your DM is really, reeeeally permissive, use the open hand Monk from BG3. Enjoy melting the entire battlefield!

[Psyren]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...its-Subclasses

Phone isn't cooperating, but here is the thread I was thinking of.

I wouldn't be surprised if stuff changed, I only half pay attention to the playtest material.

The answer to your earlier question is yes, the playtest material changed significantly since that thread was posted. That thread was about the UA6 monk, which was 3 (well, 2.5) UAs ago.

[Unoriginal]

Seriously, though, the Monk is not a weak class. Four Element Monk is arguable the weakest subclass in the game, sure, due how ki-hungry it is relatively to the effects it does, but that doesn't drag down the whole class.

The thing is that Monk is not a straightforward class. They're disruptors, they shine at ruining an enemy's battle plan by being just weird enough to impose the party's rhythm on the flow of the fight.

[follacchioso]

I'm playing a kensei monk, with sharpshooter and crusher, and the two-birds sling.
He also has three levels as ranger, to get Horde Breaker from Hunter - this makes it more fun when enemies are close to each other, but pure monk also works.
If there is time to prepare before the combat, he drinks a potion of growth, to add 1d4 to all weapon attacks.
Assuming the enemies are clustered together, he can make up to 8 attacks in one turn, at lv11. A pure monk without horde breaker could only make 6, but would have a better damage dice and more ki. On average, this is at least 70-80 damage every turn, more if you use sharpshooter.

[stoutstien]

Mercy, kensei, and shadow are probably the best three without getting into weird corner case stuff. Ki efficiency goes a long way.

Special mention for long death if fear immunity doesn't crop up in a campaign.

[LudicSavant]

What's so good about Mercy? I've heard a lot of people say it's really strong and I don't see how it's much stronger than any other subclass.

Two main things, really:

The Poison
- Ability to consistently inflict the Poisoned condition with no save, off of the same ki point and action they use to flurry. This is a Good Thing. Sure, there are a lot of poison-immune monsters, but there are considerably more monsters that aren't, and it's a very good condition to inflict, especially since it'll ignore legendary resistance, magic resistance, etc.

The fact that this feature also adds more damage than a Battle Master maneuver means that their damage output is more than most Monk subclasses, as well (though Kensei and Shadow are still more offensively-focused overall). Works on OAs, too -- a stunning, poisoning OA with a mini-smite is mean enough to actually discourage people from moving when you don't want them to (such as if they're in a hazard, or if another ally is low, or the like).

The Status Heal
- It has a surprisingly potent healing feature. A level 11+ Mercy Monk's heal is equivalent to a Celestial Warlock's Healing Light on full blast, plus a quickened, twinned Lesser Restoration, plus the rare ability to remove the Stunned condition (you know what spell heals stunned? It's not Lesser Restoration, or Greater Restoration. It's Power Word: Heal).

If you measure optimization not by "overkilling something you would have beaten anyways" but instead by "minimizing your team's ability to be in losing situations," it's actually kind of a big deal that you can actually reverse something like a mind flayer's stun or a paralyzing breath on multiple party members for less action economy than the monster used to even take the action in the first place. This is such a big tempo swing that it can turn a situation that would create a death / TPK spiral into a one-sided stomp for team PCs.

Also, one should not underestimate how much HP ~20 hp per ki adds up to. Even if you're only spending a fraction of your ki on it in level 11+, you're still potentially looking at several hundred extra hit points over the course of a 2-short-rest day.

This resource pool, combined with their option to inflict Poisoned or Stunned, Evasion, poison immunity, ability to very efficiently remove most status effects, deflect arrows, and mobility, leads to a character who (if played correctly) can shrug off an awful lot of things directed at themselves or their party.

[stoutstien]

Two main things, really:

The Poison
- Ability to consistently inflict the Poisoned condition with no save, off of the same ki point and action they use to flurry. This is a Good Thing. Sure, there are a lot of poison-immune monsters, but there are considerably more monsters that aren't, and it's a very good condition to inflict, especially since it'll ignore legendary resistance, magic resistance, etc.

The fact that this feature also adds more damage than a Battle Master maneuver means that their damage output is more than most Monk subclasses, as well (though Kensei and Shadow are still more offensively-focused overall). Works on OAs, too -- a stunning, poisoning OA with a mini-smite is mean enough to actually discourage people from moving when you don't want them to (such as if they're in a hazard, or if another ally is low, or the like).

The Status Heal
- It has a surprisingly potent healing feature. A level 11+ Mercy Monk's heal is equivalent to a Celestial Warlock's Healing Light on full blast, plus a twinned Lesser Restoration, plus the rare ability to remove the Stunned condition (you know what spell heals stunned? Power Word: Heal. Yeah).

If you measure optimization not by "overkilling something you would have beaten anyways" but instead by "minimizing your team's ability to be in losing situations," it's actually a big deal that you can actually reverse something like a mind flayer's stun or a paralyzing breath on multiple party members for less action economy than the monster used to even take the action in the first place. This is such a big tempo swing that it can turn a situation that would create a death / TPK spiral into a one-sided stomp for team PCs.

Also, one should not underestimate how much HP ~20 hp per ki adds up to. Even if you're only spending a fraction of your ki on it in level 11+, you're still potentially looking at several hundred extra hit points over the course of a 2-short-rest day.

This resource pool, combined with their option to inflict Poisoned or Stunned, Evasion, poison immunity, ability to very efficiently remove most status effects, deflect arrows, and mobility, leads to a character who (if played correctly) can shrug off an awful lot of things directed at themselves or their party.

Aye. Mercy is in the running for best designed player option IMO. It promotes counter play in the area where it matters most and doesn't do so with a pile of trump cards. You don't play to the plan but rather plan to play.

*I think RK edges it out but not by much*

[KorvinStarmast]

Monks are considered the weakest class in the game by most of the community,

"The community" doesn't know how to play a monk. As to some interesting features: at level 9 the monk can run across walls and liquids. They can fall and take little to no damage. they can deflect missile attacks. Loads of neat features. In tier 3 and 4 you get "can talk to anyone" , saving throw proficiencies, and astral travel. Current monk is immune to poison at level 10. (UA/D&Done messed this up, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr)

A Variant Human Open Hand Monk with Fighting Initiate for the Unarmed Fighting Style, with as high a DEX as possible, will reliably tear through tier 1.

Doesn't stink in later tiers either.

Seriously, though, the Monk is not a weak class. {snip 4lem}
The thing is that Monk is not a straightforward class. They're disruptors, they shine at ruining an enemy's battle plan by being just weird enough to impose the party's rhythm on the flow of the fight.

This. Our current drunken master monk is great as a disruptor.

[TheHalfAasimar]

Monks are considered the weakest class in the game by most of the community, with their tiny ki pool and inability to do cool stuff without spending their ki. But how strong could you make a pure monk, assuming your DM is fine with ridiculous optimization? Anything in an official published book is fair game except multiclassing. Any level is fine as long as it's strong for the tier.

I just want to pop in and say - I'm playing a Way of the Sun Soul monk, 0 optimization (tiefling) and quite frankly, I'm having a blast! I just run around and evaporate things from 30 feet away. I don't think that's weak. Also, at a certain point, monks get the ability to run on water, up walls, upside down (if your DM is fine with you literally being Sonic the Hedgehog) and just in general run twice as fast as everything else. So yeah, monks can be pretty powerful 'run around and not get hit' sort of damage dealers. The only problem with this? I don't like being raw damage.

[Dr.Samurai]

Monks are considered the weakest class in the game by most of the community, with their tiny ki pool and inability to do cool stuff without spending their ki.

Firstly, beware the common consensus of "the community". I'd also add that the tiny ki pool IS something you have to contend with at lower levels, at least from what I've seen at my own table.

But spending ki to do cool stuff is not a detriment. Monks can do some really cool stuff.

But how strong could you make a pure monk, assuming your DM is fine with ridiculous optimization? Anything in an official published book is fair game except multiclassing. Any level is fine as long as it's strong for the tier.

Our table monk doesn't have ANY ridiculous optimization. He is a human Open Hand monk. He knocks giants prone for my fighter so I can power attack with Great Weapon Master. He stuns ropers so they let go of our party members. He pushes enemies over glacial rifts. He outruns stragglers that try to escape and call for reinforcements.

Mercy Monks can heal, impose Poisoned on enemies, deal better damage in Tier 3, and are one of the few ways to cure something like Stunned (and as a bonus action). They can cure Paralysis in combat as well, without taking an action or a spell slot, and that ki replenishes on a Short Rest.

Four Elements Monks can Hold Person with their Ki, which replenishes on a Short Rest.

If you're looking for big damage numbers though, you may be disappointed. But with some weapon proficiencies, you can deal decent damage (1d10+mods x2 + Martial Arts/Flurry).

[Psyren]

Two main things, really:

The Poison

The Status Heal

Aye. Mercy is in the running for best designed player option IMO. It promotes counter play in the area where it matters most and doesn't do so with a pile of trump cards. You don't play to the plan but rather plan to play.

*I think RK edges it out but not by much*

Agreed, and I think it's important to add that they lifted the Mercy monk wholesale to include in 2024 Core, so that shows they don't think these benefits are overpowered (or overcomplicated for new tables/campaigns) either.

I just want to pop in and say - I'm playing a Way of the Sun Soul monk, 0 optimization (tiefling) and quite frankly, I'm having a blast! I just run around and evaporate things from 30 feet away. I don't think that's weak. Also, at a certain point, monks get the ability to run on water, up walls, upside down (if your DM is fine with you literally being Sonic the Hedgehog) and just in general run twice as fast as everything else. So yeah, monks can be pretty powerful 'run around and not get hit' sort of damage dealers. The only problem with this? I don't like being raw damage.

If you feel like you're kicking ass without needing to optimize, that's great! Nobody is here to harsh your vibe or tell you that you're not having fun. Personally, I think Sun Soul has considerable room to be improved still. I think there could be an interesting niche for the "glass cannon blaster monk" as opposed to the Mercy-style "control/tank/support" monk, if the former just got a bit (well, a lot) more "cannon."

[TheHalfAasimar]

If you feel like you're kicking ass without needing to optimize, that's great! Nobody is here to harsh your vibe or tell you that you're not having fun. Personally, I think Sun Soul has considerable room to be improved still. I think there could be an interesting niche for the "glass cannon blaster monk" as opposed to the Mercy-style "control/tank/support" monk, if the former just got a bit (well, a lot) more "cannon."

I think the biggest drawback for 'glass cannon' is that unarmed strikes just don't do enough damage, as well as the Sun Shield also doesn't quite do enough damage, maybe 5+WIS+DEX, or Prof+WIS+DEX or Monk level of damage (like level 18 monk does 18 dmg). The Searing Sunburst also could be a little more powerful, I think 6d6 radiant damage. It's not going to be unbalanced at level 11, after all Wizards, Sorcerers, Light Clerics, and Fiendlocks can do 8d6 6 levels earlier (via fireball, which is already an unbalanced spell), so yeah, a little damage boost wouldn't hurt it.

[diplomancer]

Anedoctal, but relevant:

Most players I know think the Monk is too weak. Most DMs I know think the Monk is too strong.

Draw the conclusions you like about it ;)

[Dr.Samurai]

To add to what Diplomancer said; our current monk felt underpowered in our campaign, even though he single-handedly determined the outcome in some encounters. The DM, on the other hand, was frustrated by his Open Hand techniques, his mobility, and his Stunning.

DM allowed him to switch over to 1D&D monk. Now the monk player feels incredible. Another player has complained numerous times he is overpowered, and the DM feels it has become a struggle to challenge us.

Anecdotal, but there it is.

[Witty Username]

"The community" doesn't know how to play a monk.

As part of the constribution to that, I do think part of it is conversion context rather than a true coment of weakness.

Monk comes up in alot as a point of comparison from what I can tell,
Things like rangers suck, but X puts the them ahead of monk, monk sucks that doesn't prove anything kinda discorse.

Where by my reckoning its usually Monk, Ranger, Rogue and Barbarian that are the ones that get talked about like this alot.

Also, people tend to not chat about qualities of the class like fun or playstyle. I have seen alot of people call monk weak, I have seen maybe 1 or 2 people total that said monk wasn't fun.

[Amechra]

I think the reason why they were asking about the Way of Mercy is that Kane0's post was pairing it with Gunner, which implies that you aren't going to be Flurrying (AKA you don't actually get to use any of the stuff that makes Mercy good). There's a reason why the build is called the "Kensei Archer" and not the "Mercy Archer".

...

Funnily enough, I'd argue that one of the biggest advantages that the Kensei Archer has over other Monks isn't even damage related — it's that you don't get distracted by Stunning Strike, so you end up using your ki pool more responsibly. I have a suspicion that part of the reason why the Monk feels like it has a "tiny ki pool" is that you give people Stunning Strike and they suddenly want to use it on every single successful attack. :p

[stoutstien]

I think the reason why they were asking about the Way of Mercy is that Kane0's post was pairing it with Gunner, which implies that you aren't going to be Flurrying (AKA you don't actually get to use any of the stuff that makes Mercy good). There's a reason why the build is called the "Kensei Archer" and not the "Mercy Archer".

The kensei is a stronger dedicated run and gun archer but the Mercy version takes a do-it-all approach. You still have focused aim to trigger the ba attack often enough to make of worth it. You're trading some damage for healing/recovery and debuffing when poison immunity is not a factor.

Not as common but its solid.

[Witty Username]

Most players I know think the Monk is too weak. Most DMs I know think the Monk is too strong.

I feel like alot of classes fall into this space a bit

I can only speak for myself but I tend to remember stomps well when I DM.

But when I am a player, it tends to be the reverse, that one time I failed for stun attempts in a row feels like it happened yesterday, even if it was only the once.

Players remember the fight as rogue where they had trouble hiding, DM remembers that time they had to write out a reoccurring villan because of a sneak attack crit.

[Hael]

DM allowed him to switch over to 1D&D monk. Now the monk player feels incredible. Another player has complained numerous times he is overpowered, and the DM feels it has become a struggle to challenge us.
.

The 1DnD monk (from the latest UA) *is* overpowered, and I don’t really think its much of a question.

The 5e version otoh (After Tashas) is generally considered slightly better than the rogue and barbarian, but no more, and really requires incredibly narrow build options and scenarios in which to shine (theres basically only three builds that can work at highop, and they have almost no wiggle room).

But the monk is one of those classes where they are in a superposition of being good and being terrible, and slight imbalances could tip it one way or the other. So of course a sequence of major buffs by the dev team was going to kick the status of the class into orbit.

[Dr.Samurai]

The 1DnD monk (from the latest UA) *is* overpowered, and I don’t really think its much of a question.

I agree that it is way overtuned. But I'm not sure everyone thinks its overpowered. Afterall, it scored incredibly well on the playtest survey so. Imagine that...

The 5e version otoh (After Tashas) is generally considered slightly better than the rogue and barbarian, but no more, and really requires incredibly narrow build options and scenarios in which to shine (theres basically only three builds that can work at highop, and they have almost no wiggle room).

How well something performs in "highop" is hardly a useful metric though.

[Witty Username]

The 1DnD monk (from the latest UA) *is* overpowered, and I don’t really think its much of a question.

I agree that it is way overtuned. But I'm not sure everyone thinks its overpowered. Afterall, it scored incredibly well on the playtest survey so. Imagine that...

I haven't played with it but overpowered is a tall order.

Is this overpowered, like say, reasonable choice with ups and downs in comparison to paladin? What is the range we are talking here?