Core Rulebook + Council of Thieves extras

[Arkhios]

A while ago, I made a thread about a character build/idea I've been pondering for a Core Rulebook (w/ Kingmaker extras) only for Kingmaker AP. I forgot there was another AP before that: Council of Thieves, that we'll run through first, so let's forget the Kingmaker for now.

SO...
I've had a character idea for Council of Thieves as well, and it involves my former Pathfinder Society character (I've even got character art already). The former character was an Angelkin Aasimar with Scion of Humanity, but I can't use those this time. Instead, I've been thinking I'd make an Infernal Bastard Tiefling. I've even decided on their name already: Nox Atani (if you spell it out, you might notice something that rhymes with tieflings or Asmodeus and devils in general )

Thematically speaking, Vigilante would be the most perfect class, but since I'm not able to use it, I'll try to fulfill the character concept by using other classes. The general idea is that the character will use a Two-bladed sword (hence the art), and is likely at least partly a fighter (as the Original version was, with the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype) or some other martial character. The easiest way to make the weapon choice worthwhile would be a fighter. But since the character leans on being stealthy as well as deadly in combat, they'd probably have at least some levels in Rogue, and/or Ranger (Favored Terrain obviously Urban, if more than 2 levels) for skills and other useful abilities. One thing that I would like to include is a few levels of Shadowdancer for flavor reasons.

Since Council of Thieves lasts only up to 13th level, the exact level spread is still a work in progress, and I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

Initial Idea is as follows:
Fighter 5 or more: Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, Double Slice, Weapon Specialization, Dodge; Armor Training 1 (speed penalty negated for medium armors), Weapon Training 1 (swords)
Rogue 4 or more: 1st Rogue Talent (Combat Trick: Combat Reflexes or Mobility), Combat Reflexes or Mobility, 2nd Rogue Talent (??)); Sneak Attack +2d6; Note: I think that we may be able to use Unchained version.
Shadowdancer 4 or less: Hide in plain sight, Shadow Jump

[Kurald Galain]

If you can use Unchained Rogue, definitely go with that, and grab three levels as quickly as possible so you can have dex to damage.

Shadowdancer is not very good, in particular because it requires two crappy feats as prerequisites (and Combat Reflexes is much better with a reach weapon). I'd suggest taking more rogue levels, because sneak attack + TWF is a good combo. Also, trading fighter levels for more sneak attack is a good idea.

Even aside from those prereqs, I suggest changing your feats around, although being Core-only limits your options. For example, drop Weapon Focus, Double Slive, and Weapon Spec in favor of Fiendish Heritage, ITWF, Lunge, Step Up, or maybe Nimble Moves or Blind-Fight.

I'm a fan of the Slow Reactions rogue talent. Also, if you can swing enough rogue levels, Dispelling Attack is very good with ITWF.

HTH!

[Arkhios]

If you can use Unchained Rogue, definitely go with that, and grab three levels as quickly as possible so you can have dex to damage.

Shadowdancer is not very good, in particular because it requires two crappy feats as prerequisites (and Combat Reflexes is much better with a reach weapon). I'd suggest taking more rogue levels, because sneak attack + TWF is a good combo. Also, trading fighter levels for more sneak attack is a good idea.

Even aside from those prereqs, I suggest changing your feats around, although being Core-only limits your options. For example, drop Weapon Focus, Double Slive, and Weapon Spec in favor of Fiendish Heritage, ITWF, Lunge, Step Up, or maybe Nimble Moves or Blind-Fight.

I'm a fan of the Slow Reactions rogue talent. Also, if you can swing enough rogue levels, Dispelling Attack is very good with ITWF.

HTH!

I guess it's something of an OCD for me that whenever I build or play a (3.P) fighter I'll always try to get weapon focus/specialization feats, but I suppose I could convince myself to drop them in favor of the better feats. Double Slice I find impossible to drop, however, since I just hate it when I need to keep track of different damage bonuses with TWF (doubly so because I love playing TWF characters).

I feel that the default tiefling is already good enough for the concept, so Fiendish Heritage I find unnecessary. ITWF I'll take as soon as I'm able, of course. Maybe even GTWF, if I'll get high enough BAB.

In regards to Shadowdancer, IIRC, the Council of Thieves is set in a city that is somewhat plagued by creatures from the Plane of Shadows, and Shadowdancer would seem fitting, even if only thematically. Of course, default tielfing has reduced Charisma, and Charisma is the spellcasting score for Shadowdancer whenever relevant, so that is certainly a drawback.
...actually, now that I thought of that, the default tiefling also fits perfectly for the Shadow scheme (but, admittedly, for Shadowdancer, no so much)

Also for Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training, it doesn't apply to Two-Bladed Sword (if I've read it right), so Finesse Training isn't something I'd hold my breath for.

[Maat Mons]

Traditionally, Two-Weapon Fighting is a high Dexterity fighting style. You’d normally want to pair it with Weapon Finesse and one of the abilities that adds Dex to damage. However, a two-bladed sword can’t normally be used with Weapon Finesse, and most of the means of adding Dex to damage only work with weapons compatible with Weapon Finesse. I’m not sure there’s any way to make a two-bladed sword mesh with a high Dexterity fighting style.

Ranger seems to have been meant as a way to make low Dexterity Two-Weapon Fighters, but I don’t see that as actually being a good idea. The biggest issue is that Ranger mostly doesn’t get the sort of damage bonuses needed to make Two-Weapon Fighting worthwhile. I guess you could argue that Favored enemy would make it worthwhile, but Favored Enemy is generally way too situational. A smaller issue with using Ranger to make a low Dexterity Two-Weapon Fighters is that Ranger forces you into light armor, which would normally argue for high Dexterity anyway.

[Arkhios]

Traditionally, Two-Weapon Fighting is a high Dexterity fighting style. You’d normally want to pair it with Weapon Finesse and one of the abilities that adds Dex to damage. However, a two-bladed sword can’t normally be used with Weapon Finesse, and most of the means of adding Dex to damage only work with weapons compatible with Weapon Finesse. I’m not sure there’s any way to make a two-bladed sword mesh with a high Dexterity fighting style.

Ranger seems to have been meant as a way to make low Dexterity Two-Weapon Fighters, but I don’t see that as actually being a good idea. The biggest issue is that Ranger mostly doesn’t get the sort of damage bonuses needed to make Two-Weapon Fighting worthwhile. I guess you could argue that Favored enemy would make it worthwhile, but Favored Enemy is generally way too situational. A smaller issue with using Ranger to make a low Dexterity Two-Weapon Fighters is that Ranger forces you into light armor, which would normally argue for high Dexterity anyway.

Technically, I could see going Ranger 3/Fighter 5/Rogue 5. In Pathfinder 1e, the Ranger Combat Style was improved from D&D3.5 so that it's not restricted to using Light, but Medium armor (and shields), and taking at least 3 levels in fighter would offset the speed penalty from using medium armor (funnily enough, fighter gives proficiency to heavy armor; although mithral is still a thing in pathfinder 1e, to benefit from the armor type change, one needs to be proficient with the heavier type). At Fighter 5, I'd get Weapon Training to be that much better with the chosen weapon. As a Ranger 3 I would get 1st favored terrain and since it's an urban campaign, it could be useful to have.

As a bonus, I'd get BAB to +11, and could take GTWF as my final general feat.

Now that I think of it, Ranger 3/Fighter 5/Rogue 5 (or Ranger 3/Fighter 3/Rogue 7, if deemeed that GTWF is not absolutely necessary) could be the way to go.

Just, in what order, now that is the question

[Kurald Galain]

Instead of taking a whole extra level to mitigate a speed penalty, how about simply buying a Wand of Longstrider?

[Arkhios]

Instead of taking a whole extra level to mitigate a speed penalty, how about simply buying a Wand of Longstrider?

I dunno. I could, I suppose. But then again, I could do both, and move 40 ft. instead!

Armor Training does more than that, though. It both reduces Armor Check Penalty by the listed amount as well as increases the armor Maximum Dexterity bonus by same amount. Even though I'd need to invest in both Str and Dex to keep things ideal, I know for a fact that it's relatively easy to just get enhancement bonus item for either score.

However, we'll roll for stats, and if it turns out that it's not possible to ideally split even between str and dex, I have another option for character build (Infernal Bastard Cleric of Asmodeus, Fire and Trickery domains, Channel Negative Energy (sorry team, no healing from me, other than dedicated spells), possibly a 1-level-dip in fighter for armor and weapon proficiencies, and maybe exotic proficiency to Bastard Sword for its humour value).

[Maat Mons]

As a bonus, I'd get BAB to +11, and could take GTWF as my final general feat.

If you’re going to take Greater Two-Weapon Fighting with a general feat slot, you’re going to need Dex 19, which is what I would have liked to avoid by involving Ranger in the first place. If you’re using Unchained Rogue, Pathfinder Unchained, the same book Unchained Rogue appears in, has Terrain Mastery, a Rogue talent that gives you a favored terrain of your choice. Mechanically speaking, Unchained Rogue is best served by a pair of short swords. I know you like the visual of a two-bladed sword, but is there any chance your DM would let you have something that is visually a two-bladed sword, but mechanically functions as a pair of short swords?

[Arkhios]

If you’re going to take Greater Two-Weapon Fighting with a general feat slot, you’re going to need Dex 19, which is what I would have liked to avoid by involving Ranger in the first place. If you’re using Unchained Rogue, Pathfinder Unchained, the same book Unchained Rogue appears in, has Terrain Mastery, a Rogue talent that gives you a favored terrain of your choice. Mechanically speaking, Unchained Rogue is best served by a pair of short swords. I know you like the visual of a two-bladed sword, but is there any chance your DM would let you have something that is visually a two-bladed sword, but mechanically functions as a pair of short swords?

Oh, right you are. Forgot that Dex 19 prerequisite. Silly me.

If (and that's a big if) we are allowed to use Ultimate Equipment, then I could probably use two Gladiuses (slashing in general is considered better damage type than piercing), and just ask if I could fluff them being sheathed in a tube that makes it look like it's a two-bladed sword, but that's really unlikely on both accounts.

Edit: Crazy idea:

Exotic Proficiency: Spiked Chain
Unlike Amiri who wields a large bastard sword two-handedly, I could use a small spiked chain in one hand
or two ... I KNOW, I KNOW! It's a -2 penalty to attack roll from a wrong size, and a small spiked chain is one-handed weapon, so twf penalty would be -4 instead of the preferred -2, so, in total it would be a whopping -6/-6 before bonuses. But Spiked Chain is a finesse weapon, so Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training would apply, and I'd could copy Kratos, the God of War.

But, as I said, I know it's crazy ...and dumb... idea. If only I could play the Two-Weapon Warrior. That way I could at least mitigate some of the extra penalties from twf.