How much would cost to pay a team to capture a red dragon wyrmling?

[Unoriginal]

edit: also wait, the sample frost giant blackguard given has too low a wisdom score to cast his 3rd- and 4th-level spells? WotC, why?

Most of the writers who worked on 3.X books never got the hang on how to make a decent 3.X character, honestly.

Not to mention how they never really got what made a 3.X character powerful, either.

[Bohandas]

edit: also wait, the sample frost giant blackguard given has too low a wisdom score to cast his 3rd- and 4th-level spells? WotC, why?

Not only that but he also doesn't have any metamagic feats which would at least allow him to at least get a greater effect when casting low level spells in high level slots

[Samael Morgenst]

You know that they get class levels too, right?

This is their organization, according to Monster Manual 1:

Solitary, gang (2–5), band (6–9 plus 35% Solitary or with tribe
noncombatants plus 1 adept or cleric of
1st or 2nd level), hunting/raiding party (6–9
plus 35% noncombatants plus 1 adept or
sorcerer of 3rd–5th level plus 2–4 winter wolves
and 2–3 ogres), or tribe (21–30 plus 1 adept,
cleric, or sorcerer of 6th or 7th level plus
12–30 winter wolves, 12–22 ogres,
and 1–2 young white dragons)

---

For the most, they're just beefy brutes.In a whole tribe there are just one or two - mabye! - able to deal with something as simple as an Invisibility spell.

About the forgotten realm novel:

1. the young white undead was sent back to spread horror, no effort was made to hide the enterprise
2. I don't think that Forgotten Realms dragons are exactly standard d&d 3.5 dragons.

[Inevitability]

Not only that but he also doesn't have any metamagic feats which would at least allow him to at least get a greater effect when casting low level spells in high level slots

He doesn't even have lower-level spells in his higher-level slots, is the thing. It's as if the top half of the casting progression was just cut away.

[hamishspence]

About the forgotten realm novel:

1. the young white undead was sent back to spread horror, no effort was made to hide the enterprise
2. I don't think that Forgotten Realms dragons are exactly standard d&d 3.5 dragons.

The point is that it's possible to outrage even white dragons, the dimmest and among the least sociable, with a "crime against dragonkind" enough for them to act as a group.

The Orbs of Dragonkind are another example of the sort of thing that will anger multiple dragons at a time:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItem...bsofDragonkind

The bearer of one of these Orbs earns the enmity forever of all dragonkind for profiting by the enslavement of one of their kin, even if she later loses the item.

[Crake]

The point is that it's possible to outrage even white dragons, the dimmest

Worth noting that "dimmest" is also relative. An adult dragon has the same average intelligence as a human, and even literal newborn, fresh-out-the-egg hatchlings are about as intelligent as a slightly dummber than normal orc.

The main part is the "least sociable" part, which is hampers their ability to work together, not their intelligence.

[AMFV]

This is their organization, according to Monster Manual 1:

Solitary, gang (2–5), band (6–9 plus 35% Solitary or with tribe
noncombatants plus 1 adept or cleric of
1st or 2nd level), hunting/raiding party (6–9
plus 35% noncombatants plus 1 adept or
sorcerer of 3rd–5th level plus 2–4 winter wolves
and 2–3 ogres), or tribe (21–30 plus 1 adept,
cleric, or sorcerer of 6th or 7th level plus
12–30 winter wolves, 12–22 ogres,
and 1–2 young white dragons)

---

For the most, they're just beefy brutes.In a whole tribe there are just one or two - mabye! - able to deal with something as simple as an Invisibility spell.

About the forgotten realm novel:

1. the young white undead was sent back to spread horror, no effort was made to hide the enterprise
2. I don't think that Forgotten Realms dragons are exactly standard d&d 3.5 dragons.

Organizations from MM are not at all reliable. And shouldn't be taken as anything beyond like super rough recommendations.

[Crake]

For the most, they're just beefy brutes.In a whole tribe there are just one or two - mabye! - able to deal with something as simple as an Invisibility spell.

You know a lot of spells have pretty mundane solutions. For example, did you know a sack of flour can be used to reduce invisibility to just 20% concealment? You know what can function very much the same as a sack of flour? A giant handful of snow. Guess what is super abundant in frost giant environments?

Also, snow tends to leave super deep footprints that make it incredibly obvious where you are while invisible.

[AMFV]

You know a lot of spells have pretty mundane solutions. For example, did you know a sack of flour can be used to reduce invisibility to just 20% concealment? You know what can function very much the same as a sack of flour? A giant handful of snow. Guess what is super abundant in frost giant environments?

Also, snow tends to leave super deep footprints that make it incredibly obvious where you are while invisible.

Pit Traps can also work a trick if you have some way to block teleports at the bottom. Creatures with Scent. Frost Giants that take Martial Strike and Martial Stance to nab Scent.

[Samael Morgenst]

Adult Frost Giants are not "mooks".

According to Savage Species they are equal to level 18 characters. It tooks them a tremendous amount of experience and effort to gain even a single character level.

They're largest settlement numbers up to 30 adults, not 20000 and more like human settlements. Frost Giants with class levels are exceedingly rare, bordering on epic.

[AMFV]

Adult Frost Giants are not "mooks".

According to Savage Species they are equal to level 18 characters. It tooks them a tremendous amount of experience and effort to gain even a single character level.

They're largest settlement numbers up to 30 adults, not 20000 and more like human settlements. Frost Giants with class levels are exceedingly rare, bordering on epic.

Adult Frost Giants are indeed Mooks. They start with their RHD, that's how RHD works. According to the rules they don't advance by RHD at all. Also it's not clear at all if NPCs advance by leveling up in general.

Edit: Also you commenting that they are really scary and big doesn't actually help your original point which is "Frost Giants get away with Dragonnapping without consequence" which is actually not backed in the rules. That kind of works against you.

Are you the DM in this scenario?

[rel]

A quest giver offers 1k to 2k GP per PC.

And the PC's can likely make a little more looting the dragons hoard, and get a higher payout by accepting payment in something less liquid than diamond dust and platinum coins.

The idea was to bred and butcher dragons rather than tame them.

If the PC party shows a consistent habit of balking at morally dubious quests, but your NPC judges them to be mercenary enough to accept the quest anyway if the pay is good then the quest giver *might* offer 1.5X to 2X the normal rate.

NPC's with high bluff are likely to try and spin a sympathetic story if the PC's seem moralistic and lacking in sense motive (e.g. The dragon needs to answer for some crime, bring them in as a prisoner; the dragon keeps burning down villages, we're going to relocate it to somewhere with less people; the dragon has vital information and needs to be questioned; etc)

NPC's with high diplomacy are likely to try and frame their actions in a sympathetic light (the dragons will live better lives in my care than they ever would in the wild; dragons are compelled to do evil, keeping them imprisoned where they can do no harm makes the world a better place; dragons aren't really people, they're savage beasts, it's no worse than the quest you took to exterminate the orc horde last month; etc)

Retribution against the PC's is unlikely. Everyone knows they only did the quest for coin and know or care little about the particulars.
Also making an example of a band of nameless murder hobos, (assuming you can even find them) isn't going to make it less likely that other adventuring parties accept such quests in the future, and might be bad for the health of whoever you sent after them; They aren't dubbed murder hobos for nothing.

If anything, people taking exception to the quest givers' dragon breeding operation are likely to try and hire the PC's to shut it down. After all, the PC's are demonstrably competent and have experience with the quest giver specifically.

[Unoriginal]

Adult Frost Giants are not "mooks".

According to Savage Species they are equal to level 18 characters. It tooks them a tremendous amount of experience and effort to gain even a single character level.

They're largest settlement numbers up to 30 adults, not 20000 and more like human settlements. Frost Giants with class levels are exceedingly rare, bordering on epic.

You're the one arguing that they're easily defeated by a lvl 7 character.

You can't argue that they're weak and that they're strong at the same time.

[Samael Morgenst]

They're neither weak nor strong. They're overspecialized.
Exceptional tanks and melee fighter, for the most unable to detect and counter stealthy spellcasters.

You're the one arguing that they're easily defeated by a lvl 7 character.

More "easily tricked / duped / eluded / wailaid by a level 7 spellcaster".
They can pulp Fighters and Barbarians quite easily.

[Unoriginal]

Although I do have to point out "mook" isn't by itself a measure of power.

If a criminal organization in a superhero RPG has an army of faceless, disposable minions, they're the mooks. No matter if they're actually equivalent to a low-tier superhero in an individual fistfight or if they'd get defeated by a civilian with a baseball bat.

For the Frost Giants, even the grunt is a force to be reckoned with. Which is also why the dragons didn't kill them all.

[AMFV]

They're neither weak nor strong. They're overspecialized.
Exceptional tanks and melee fighter, for the most unable to detect and counter stealthy spellcasters.



More "easily tricked / duped / eluded / wailaid by a level 7 spellcaster".
They can pulp Fighters and Barbarians quite easily.

An ubercharger at that level is doing more than enough damage to 1 ROUND that sucker, bud.

Edit: Are you seriously comparing even partially optimized PC builds to anything as written in the monster manual. EVERYTHING is incredibly weak by that standard.

[Samael Morgenst]

Well, obviously I'm not taking into account Pun-pun builds.

[AMFV]

Well, obviously I'm not taking into account Pun-pun builds.

We're talking mid range optimization. No real cheese. Doing 150+ damage at level 7 is pretty trivial for a charge build character. Like we're not into TO stuff like d2 Crusaders or whatever.

[Beni-Kujaku]

They're neither weak nor strong. They're overspecialized.
Exceptional tanks and melee fighter, for the most unable to detect and counter stealthy spellcasters.

More "easily tricked / duped / eluded / wailaid by a level 7 spellcaster".
They can pulp Fighters and Barbarians quite easily.

Then what is your initial point? The point that was made a few dozen posts ago was "In lore, White dragons do not recklessly attack frost giants because that would be extremely dangerous and the white dragons would suffer heavy losses, which they wouldn't if they instead attacked a bunch of wyrmling-kidnapping mortals, so there is a good chance they would try attacking if there was word of said mortals kidnapping said wyrmlings."
You replied with, in essence "Frost giants aren't that scary, a PC caster with 4th level spells should be able to slaughter them, even though they could body much more powerful martials". Are we okay until now?
Even if we assume that's true (still a stretch, would you say that a party of 10 level 9 martial characters would be completely helpless should a single level 7 caster come along?), have you read a white dragon's statblock lately? Because "caster with 4th level spells" does not apply to them until they are Ancient. So for the vast majority of white dragons, yes, frost giants are scary. And for that same majority humans are much less scary (if only because the frost breath would affect them). So white dragons are much more likely, for the same offense, to attack a group of humans than they are to attack a group of frost giants.

[Crake]

We're talking mid range optimization. No real cheese. Doing 150+ damage at level 7 is pretty trivial for a charge build character. Like we're not into TO stuff like d2 Crusaders or whatever.

Leap attack, shock trooper and a +1 valorous greatsword with 20 strength is still only averaging 96 damage on a charge, and considering it has +15 to hit while charging vs a frost giant's 21 unbuffed AC, and not taking into account the fact that the snowy ground you'd expect in a frost giant's environment that would pretty much make charging not even viable means that this is largely not true.

Also, remember, any "mid range optimization" available to you is equally available to the giants. It's super easy to replace literally 1 or 2 feats in the frost giant's kit and make them equally as lethal.

They're neither weak nor strong. They're overspecialized.
Exceptional tanks and melee fighter, for the most unable to detect and counter stealthy spellcasters.



More "easily tricked / duped / eluded / wailaid by a level 7 spellcaster".
They can pulp Fighters and Barbarians quite easily.

Already given a tonne of mundane solutions to beat a "stealthy spellcaster".

[Samael Morgenst]

Then what is your initial point?

My initial point is that capturing white dragon youngling and breeding them to obtain weapon/armor / elixir materials, if done with discrection, is not something likely to elicit catastrophic retribution.

Already given a tonne of mundane solutions to beat a "stealthy spellcaster".

As a DM I would not even take them into consideration, but it's a matter of opinions.

Also, remember, any "mid range optimization" available to you is equally available to the giants. It's super easy to replace literally 1 or 2 feats in the frost giant's kit and make them equally as lethal.

I don't delve into homebrew content, usually.

[AMFV]

Leap attack, shock trooper and a +1 valorous greatsword with 20 strength is still only averaging 96 damage on a charge, and considering it has +15 to hit while charging vs a frost giant's 21 unbuffed AC, and not taking into account the fact that the snowy ground you'd expect in a frost giant's environment that would pretty much make charging not even viable means that this is largely not true.

Also, remember, any "mid range optimization" available to you is equally available to the giants. It's super easy to replace literally 1 or 2 feats in the frost giant's kit and make them equally as lethal.

20 Strength is really low for an optimized level 7 Ubercharger. Like crazy low. That's 16 before they rage. (And they have Rage since they have pounce). Like even if you're not assuming that they can afford a strength boosting item (which they can) that's bonkers low.

Yes, but you could also optimize the Giants in ways that would be a problem for the level 7 spellcaster trying to sneak past them. I agree that the giant mooks aren't particularly optimized. That's true of any monster in the monster manual. I'm confused why you're attacking me (and doing so incorrectly with a 16 Strength Ubercharger) when we're literally arguing the same point. That Frost Giant low level mooks are pretty scary, and that optimized characters can probably deal with appropriately CR'ed monsters.

Also you have leap attack. You're jumping anyways.

Already given a tonne of mundane solutions to beat a "stealthy spellcaster".

Yep. There are plenty of options.

My initial point is that capturing white dragon youngling and breeding them to obtain weapon/armor / elixir materials, if done with discrection, is not something likely to elicit catastrophic retribution.

Discretion is expensive. How are you advertising this? What discrete sources are you using to advertise this thing? Without attracting attention. How much are you paying your fixers? How much are you paying your adventurers to be discrete?

I don't delve into homebrew content, usually.

That's not "homebrew" it's literally described in the rules. Like in the MM you can read all the rules on how you can swap monster feats. None of that is "homebrew"

[Crake]

I don't delve into homebrew content, usually.

Customizing monsters and NPCs isn't homebrew. Homebrew is making NEW content (classes, races, mosnters, items), not rearranging existing content.

As a side note, refusing to homebrew is, imo, a super terrible decision. Homebrewing content is a great way to surprise your players and keep content feeling novel and exciting, rather than the same expected cookie cutter content over and over.

20 Strength is really low for an optimized level 7 Ubercharger. Like crazy low. That's 16 before they rage. (And they have Rage since they have pounce). Like even if you're not assuming that they can afford a strength boosting item (which they can) that's bonkers low.

That was before rage, because when you're only able to rage 1-2 times per day, you're not gonna be raging literally every combat.

Even then, raging only adds +2 to hit and +3 damage.

Also you have leap attack. You're jumping anyways.

Right, but you need to a running start to your charge unless you can make the full distance with the x2 dc penalty for lacking one, and if the terrain there is difficult, you can't even start your charge.

[AMFV]

Customizing monsters and NPCs isn't homebrew. Homebrew is making NEW content (classes, races, mosnters, items), not rearranging existing content.

As a side note, refusing to homebrew is, imo, a super terrible decision. Homebrewing content is a great way to surprise your players and keep content feeling novel and exciting, rather than the same expected cookie cutter content over and over.

Hear! Hear!

If as a DM you give every single monster Martial Study and one unique ability, you'll have made the game way better and that's just scratching the surface. I do find that letting the Ubercharger do their one trick is usually okay though. Cause they have like one trick, let them do their trick. Not like build everything around them, but if they get to obliterate an enemy every combat it goes well, and that doesn't usually require any extra set up.

That was before rage, because when you're only able to rage 1-2 times per day, you're not gonna be raging literally every combat.

Even then, raging only adds +2 to hit and +3 damage.

But starting at more than 20 Strength is pretty good. You should still have more than 20 Strength, especially if we're counting items.

Right, but you need to a running start to your charge unless you can make the full distance with the x2 dc penalty for lacking one, and if the terrain there is difficult, you can't even start your charge.

Just be a Goliath. It's a great choice for an Ubercharger in a mountainous campaign. Actually probably it is the premier choice for that campaign.

Edit 2: I do agree that there are environments where an Ubercharger isn't going to obliterate that in one round. But the idea that martials are just gonna get curbstomped there is probably not accurate assuming a reasonable level of optimization.

[Samael Morgenst]

As a side note, refusing to homebrew is, imo, a super terrible decision. Homebrewing content is a great way to surprise your players and keep content feeling novel and exciting, rather than the same expected cookie cutter content over and over.

Opening to homebrew is like opening a Gate to the Far Realm and plunging in head on, just to end up falling forever, screaming silently amidst a noneuclidean sea of madness.

[Crake]

But starting at more than 20 Strength is pretty good. You should still have more than 20 Strength, especially if we're counting items.

I mean, I was imagining 17-18 starting strength, a +2 item, and your level 4 stat boost in strength, so 17+1+2 = 20.

That's 4k for the stat boost item, 8k for the weapon, out of 19k wbl at level 7, you can't really afford to bump strength up by more there via items, and you can't upgrade your weapon above +1 valorous with that money either. Sure, you can probably boost it above 20 with racial bonuses, but if we're looking at phb races for example, the only option there is half-orc, which might not be what you want from a character building perspective.

Just be a Goliath. It's a great choice for an Ubercharger in a mountainous campaign. Actually probably it is the premier choice for that campaign.

Sure, if this campaign is entirely about going to the mountains, and dealing with frost giants. But it might not be, this might just be one adventure in a greater storyline, so we can't really look at specifically tailoring characters to these encounters.

I do find that letting the Ubercharger do their one trick is usually okay though. Cause they have like one trick, let them do their trick. Not like build everything around them, but if they get to obliterate an enemy every combat it goes well, and that doesn't usually require any extra set up.

I'm not saying that you should actively try and block a character from doing their thing, what I am saying though, is that things like uberchargers work great in a vacuum, but there are plenty of circumstances where they would just be naturally blocked from doing their thing, and the naturally occuring, very abundant difficult terrain in a frost giant's standard environment is one of them.

It's equally the same issue for a stealthy spellcaster. Invisibility is great on hard terrain, but in deep, crunchy snow, those footsteps and footprints will give you away instantly.

Basically, what im getting at is: it's all good in theory, but even the best laid plans don't survive contact with the enemy.

I can almost guarnatee that, were a level 7 caster to go up against a frost giant in their natural environment solo, more often than not, they would lose. Sure they'd probably come out on top once in a while, just due to the nature of save or lose spells and rng, but it would not be a betting man's game.

Opening to homebrew is like opening a Gate to the Far Realm and plunging in head on, just to end up falling forever, screaming silently amidst a noneuclidean sea of madness.

I'm not saying you open up your players to using OTHER people's homebrew, I'm saying you open up YOURSELF to using YOUR OWN homebrew. And also working with your players to build YOUR homebrew for THEM.

[AMFV]

I mean, I was imagining 17-18 starting strength, a +2 item, and your level 4 stat boost in strength, so 17+1+2 = 20.

That's 4k for the stat boost item, 8k for the weapon, out of 19k wbl at level 7, you can't really afford to bump strength up by more there via items, and you can't upgrade your weapon above +1 valorous with that money either. Sure, you can probably boost it above 20 with racial bonuses, but if we're looking at phb races for example, the only option there is half-orc, which might not be what you want from a character building perspective.

You don't want to make your Ubercharger human. You want them to be like an Orc or a Goliath... or if we're talking bonkers BS stuff an Incarnate Construct Maug who bought off his LA at level 3.

Goliath with Mountain Rage gets the damage boost from size (not that much but it's something). +6 Strength while raging. +4 Strength without. So we're looking at 30 Strength while raging with a +2 Item. That's a pretty big damage jump right there, and a big accuracy jump. Your Incarnate Construct Maug has 28 Strength at level 1. 32 while raging (34 once they get the item), the RHD are a little sad, I think they're worth that +10 Strength, Large size and what-not. And all this is before you get your Wizard friend to buff you some.

Edit: You have to remember one of the big advantages of Charging as a combat style it is that it is relatively feat light, so you can focus on something that's got better stats.

Sure, if this campaign is entirely about going to the mountains, and dealing with frost giants. But it might not be, this might just be one adventure in a greater storyline, so we can't really look at specifically tailoring characters to these encounters.

True, but we also can't assume that they're actively built not to work in a given scenario either.

I'm not saying that you should actively try and block a character from doing their thing, what I am saying though, is that things like uberchargers work great in a vacuum, but there are plenty of circumstances where they would just be naturally blocked from doing their thing, and the naturally occuring, very abundant difficult terrain in a frost giant's standard environment is one of them.

I mean the giants aren't going to be in deep snow all the time, they're going to also be encountered in forts and dungeons and what-not.

It's equally the same issue for a stealthy spellcaster. Invisibility is great on hard terrain, but in deep, crunchy snow, those footsteps and footprints will give you away instantly.

Basically, what im getting at is: it's all good in theory, but even the best laid plans don't survive contact with the enemy.

I can almost guarnatee that, were a level 7 caster to go up against a frost giant in their natural environment solo, more often than not, they would lose. Sure they'd probably come out on top once in a while, just due to the nature of save or lose spells and rng, but it would not be a betting man's game.

Yep! And the Ubercharger is only going to delete one if he can get off a charge and not die to the AoO and then the Giant doesn't have friends....

Edit:

Opening to homebrew is like opening a Gate to the Far Realm and plunging in head on, just to end up falling forever, screaming silently amidst a noneuclidean sea of madness.

You realize that there's a middle ground between "I allow every single kind of homebrew ever" and "I allow this one thing"

[Crake]

You don't want to make your Ubercharger human. You want them to be like an Orc or a Goliath... or if we're talking bonkers BS stuff an Incarnate Construct Maug who bought off his LA at level 3.

Goliath with Mountain Rage gets the damage boost from size (not that much but it's something). +6 Strength while raging. +4 Strength without. So we're looking at 30 Strength while raging with a +2 Item. That's a pretty big damage jump right there, and a big accuracy jump. Your Incarnate Construct Maug has 28 Strength at level 1. 32 while raging (34 once they get the item), the RHD are a little sad, I think they're worth that +10 Strength, Large size and what-not. And all this is before you get your Wizard friend to buff you some.

I dunno, to me this is leaving the realm of mid-level optimization. To me, mid-level optimization means building the mechanics around the fluff. If your build is dictaing requirements in terms of pretty fundamental character traits like race and class, you've left the realm of mid-level optimization.

A mid level ubercharger is one that isn't dictated by race or class, just a couple of feat choices, and that can slot into most any character.

[AMFV]

I dunno, to me this is leaving the realm of mid-level optimization. To me, mid-level optimization means building the mechanics around the fluff. If your build is dictaing requirements in terms of pretty fundamental character traits like race and class, you've left the realm of mid-level optimization.

A mid level ubercharger is one that isn't dictated by race or class, just a couple of feat choices, and that can slot into most any character.

That's fair. I would say that "Pick a race with a strength bonus" isn't high optimization. "Pick a large race" isn't high optimization. I don't know that any Ubercharger fits into a high optimization environment. Even like your ridiculous Incarnate Construct Maug is probably not quite into high optimization. But yeah, I would disagree on that. I wouldn't consider "feats slotted" to be mid optimization. That's low optimization or alternate role optimization. Like I might do that one a character who isn't going to charge regularly.

Edit: Like Picking intuitively obvious stuff is not high optimization. "I want to hit things hard so I pick a big strong race" is intuitive optimization, which is what defines mid-level optimization. Whereas like Incarnate Construct Maug is not that, that would be higher optimization because it requires making several non-intuitive choices. And that gets you something with a markedly better result

[Crake]

That's fair. I would say that "Pick a race with a strength bonus" isn't high optimization. "Pick a large race" isn't high optimization. I don't know that any Ubercharger fits into a high optimization environment. Even like your ridiculous Incarnate Construct Maug is probably not quite into high optimization. But yeah, I would disagree on that. I wouldn't consider "feats slotted" to be mid optimization. That's low optimization or alternate role optimization. Like I might do that one a character who isn't going to charge regularly.

Edit: Like Picking intuitively obvious stuff is not high optimization. "I want to hit things hard so I pick a big strong race" is intuitive optimization, which is what defines mid-level optimization. Whereas like Incarnate Construct Maug is not that, that would be higher optimization because it requires making several non-intuitive choices. And that gets you something with a markedly better result

Its not about any one decision, its the moment you decide to start pigeon holing your character into specific choices for mechanical benefits that it leaves mid op.

I guess the other question to ask is: does making a human fighter ubercharger make them low op? Because I would argue that making an ubercharger at all pushes you to mid op minimum, thus, making an OPTIMAL ubercharger must result in high op.

Remember, just because something is high op, doesnt mean it has to be tier 1 power. A tier 5 character can still be high op