How to make an metamagic focused epic caster interesting?

[Timestealer]

I am planning to make a epic character of ECL 50 for fun and a possible game. Epic spellcasting has been banned so i was wondering is there an combination of classes for me to make a wizard that is more interesting than simply wiz 5/incantatrix X/something else 5? Int boosting templates or weird races are also suggestible thank you. Optimising is ok but infinite loops are not

Ps, i know the common consensus is that epic is broken but put that aside for now

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I like dipping into lots of psionic manifesting classes (with the Magic mantle to enforce more-than-transparency), taking Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) to give all of my class dips ML = HD and remove AoOs and PR checks, and then take the psithief variant of spellthief and the Master Spellthief feat (altered to match the psithief variant to work on psionic manifesting) to add all of my MLs together.

If you somehow manage to dip into 50 different manifesting classes, each one with ML 50, you have a ML of 2,500 at level 50 without any extra boosts. Just adding an orange ioun stone would boost your ML in each of your classes by +50.

Also, multiclassing is the only way to give your pp pool a significant boost in epic, so you'd add all those pools (including pp based on their respective ability scores) into it, as well.

Normally, level 1 in a bunch of classes would only give you the ability to manifest 1st level powers from all of them, but luckily, ardent (which you want for the Magic mantle anyway, if not also for the other ACFs, like Dominant Ideal) bases max powers known and manifest-able on manifester level. So pay an erudite for manifestings of psychic chirurgery to give you all of their powers known (and spells known, if they're a CStP erudite), and you can manifest all of them as an ardent.

Dipping into numerous classes would also give you plenty of access to ACFs, as well.

As far as meta- feats go, metapsionic feats have no limit to how many times you can stack them (unlike metamagic) aside from only being usable 1/psionic focus spent and the ML cap for pp spent. Luckily, the Dominant Ideal ardent ACF negates expending foci that for a number of powers known, so just find powers you want to stack Linked Power, Empower, Enlarge, or Widen as many times as you want, grab Metapower if needed, and go to town, stacking as many of those feats as possible.

[Jay R]

There are some basic rules for casters:

Don't take a race with a positive level adjustment -- certainly not one as high as +4.
Don't use any theurge build.
If you must have a theurge build, only use one that always advances your primary caster's spellcasting level.

All of these are based on the fact that if you don't have as high a spellcasting level as possible, you have fewer spells, and don't have the highest spells you can have.

But that is only true through level 20. Levels after that don't give you more spells per level, or higher levels.

And suddenly, the pixie Ultimate Magus becomes viable.

Yes, you lose a few spellcaster levels, but your CL is higher than it would have been. And the metamagic advantages are incredible.

A pixie has +6 INT and +6 CHA, and those do give you more spells per level, at 6 or 7 levels.

We extended the Ultimate Magus class according to the rules in the Epic Level Handbook.

I started one at the equivalent of 26th level(325,000 XPs). Buying off the Level Allowance costs 72,000 XPs total, and is complete at level 21. From then on, you're 72,000 XPs behind.

So he could have been a straight Wizard 26 with CL 26.

But instead, he could be a Sorcerer 1/ Wizard 5/ Incantator 4 / Ultimate Magus 13 -- with Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer)
So he could cast as a Wizard 20 with CL 25, and as a Sorcerer 13 with CL 23.

He had +6 INT and +6 CHA, but he also could use a sixth level slot in each class to cast chasing perfection as a Persistent Spell for an additional +4 to INT and CHA. So that gives him at least one additional spell at each level for each class.

[I had a couple more shenanigans, so this isn't exactly what I did, but it's one way to make it work.]

This is a wizard with benefits -- most particularly, the ability to use the sorcerer slots to pay for metamagic.

---

Depending on how your DM feels about experience point penalties for multi-classing, you might be able to go Beguiler / Wizard instead of Sorcerer /Wizard, so both classes use INT. My DM enforces the penalty, so I used Sorcerer, which is the pixie's favored class.

[Crake]

The first thing you want to consider is having sufficient bab. Bab doesnt increase after level 20, so getting at least 16 bab is important to consider. My recommendation thusly would be to take 20 levels of fighter initially, as you can use all those bonus feats as fuel for the dark chaos feat shuffle later.

Human for another bonus feat is nice, but if its allowed, elves get a bunch of bonus proficiency feats that can be shuffled as well.

Now for your last 30 levels, you can get double 9s sorc and wiz casting with sorc 5/wiz5/ultimate magus 10/epic ultimate magus 8, using the extrapolation rules for epic prestige classes

That gets you exactly 20 spellcasting levels in both sorc AND wiz, which lets you max out your spell slots, AND it also gives you the great ability to use spell slots from one class to apply metamagic feats to the other class, on spells up to 9th level. At this point, youd want to now DCFS to swap out all your feats into metamagic feats, including automatic still/silent/quicken x3, and ignore material components, and then all the metamagic feats you could ever want.

If you were human, at this point you could also round out the build with 2 levels of chameleon for the floating bonus feat, to let you add a new spell to your spellbook every day, bonus points if you can get eidetic spellcaster from dragon magazine for an eidetic spellbook. Even more bonus points if you can get versatile spellcaster to allow you to spend 2 sorc spell slots to cast a wizard spell of one level higher, as technically, its a spell you know. Debatable, but doable in high op settings.

Thats all a pretty basic starting point though. You probably dont need that many bonus feats, so maybe dont need that many levels of fighter. Consider subbing out some levels for other martial classes, perhaps some levels in warblade for a maneuver recovery method, and spend some of your DCFS feats at level 50 in getting level 9 maneuvers, since youll be at least initiator level 25

[Timestealer]

How does the psionic caster have a ML of 2500? Can you tell me the class features and spells that let that happen?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How does the psionic caster have a ML of 2500? Can you tell me the class features and spells that let that happen?

I...did? If you can somehow dip 50 manifesting classes and take a level in psithief, take the Magic mantle to ensure psionic/magic transparency, and also the feats (psionic) Master Spellthief and Supernatural Transformation (Psionics), you boost all of your MLs to equal your HD (using Supernatural Transformation) and then add them all together [using Master (Psi)thief]. Normally this would only allow you to manifest 1st level powers, but ardent manifesting is based on their ML rather than their class level.

The trick is getting 50 different manifesting classes. Though the trick also works if you only take 6 or 7, just at a lower number. Any boosts to ML beyond that are likewise multiplied, like the aforementioned orange ioun stone.

Alternatively, I guess you could go illithid savant and start eating manifesters (or their ice assassins or clones, at least) for their manifesting. You could probably reach a rather high number with that.

[Timestealer]

Oh i just looked up what supernatural transformation does thanks

[Crake]

Oh i just looked up what supernatural transformation does thanks

Its worth noting that most people dont agree with max about how supernatural transformation works with psionics.

Most people agree that it would work on ONE of your psionic powers, but not your whole psionics ability set, and it would also remove your manifester level from that ability and replace it with a CASTER level, specifically for that ability, and that ability alone.

Additionally magic mantle, while ensuring psionic/magic transparency, DOESNT make psionics equal ARCANE caster classes, which master spelltheif exclusively interacts with, ergo, it wouldnt work for psionics either way

ALSO additionally, master spellthief says that your arcane spellcaster levels stack, not that the caster levels of said classes stack. If you have a bunch of caster level boosters, they would not be multiplied by the number of arcane spellcaster classes you have, because those caster level boosts dont boost your class level, and its the class levels that stack.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Its worth noting that most people dont agree with max about how supernatural transformation works with psionics.

Hey, people are free to be wrong all they want.

Most people agree that it would work on ONE of your psionic powers, but not your whole psionics ability set, and it would also remove your manifester level from that ability and replace it with a CASTER level, specifically for that ability, and that ability alone.

Except psionic manifesting is one psi-like ability, by definition. Psionic manifesting is listed as a single ability everywhere it's printed in a stat block. The exact quote is, "The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability"

Note the "a," meaning it's a singular psi-like ability.

Additionally magic mantle, while ensuring psionic/magic transparency, DOESNT make psionics equal ARCANE caster classes, which master spelltheif exclusively interacts with, ergo, it wouldnt work for psionics either way

It doesn't ensure psi/magic transparency. It makes them identical, which is definitely not transparency, since even transparency doesn't go that far. And I did say the psithief, not spellthief, which is an alternate version of spellthief listed in the spellthief entry that affects psionics rather than arcane spellcasting. And if psithief is allowed, I find that Master Psithief (alternate Master Spellthief) usually is, as well.

[Crake]

Except psionic manifesting is one psi-like ability, by definition. Psionic manifesting is listed as a single ability everywhere it's printed in a stat block. The exact quote is, "The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability"

Spell-like abilities are also listed as one ability in the stat block, with each individual spell like listed in the ability’s description. Bad take.

It doesn't ensure psi/magic transparency. It makes them identical, which is definitely not transparency, since even transparency doesn't go that far. And I did say the psithief, not spellthief, which is an alternate version of spellthief listed in the spellthief entry that affects psionics rather than arcane spellcasting. And if psithief is allowed, I find that Master Psithief (alternate Master Spellthief) usually is, as well.

It literally does ensure psi/magic transparency. It literally says “Most campaigns already treat them in this manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where they are considered different systems.”

And even if youre using psithief, it again doesnt change the fact that it stacks class levels not caster(manifester) levels.

[pabelfly]

I'd start by looking at the Raising Caster Level thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...g-Caster-Level. There's a list of spells in there that have uncapped damage and uncapped effects. Since you can have a caster level of around 50 solely through class levels, there are some powerful spells in there that might not normally merit consideration. Work out if there are some spells in there you'd like to build around. It would make this thread a lot easier.

Also, spells that are an hour/level now last for two days, and 10 min/level spells now last over eight hours. If you want to do a Persist build, you'd only persist min/level spells.

Second, I would consider getting some X stat to Y on whatever build you come up with. Even if you pick a stat-neutral race like Human, you could easily end up with 40-50 in your main stat, or a +15 to +20 modifier, even without touching epic items. That would be really useful on any stat - Saves, Initiative, AC, whatever you can manage. Even your secondary stats could easily end at 30, or a +10 modifier.

Getting 20 BAB, or close to it, deserves highlighting, although it was mentioned before. Regardless if you want to hit opponents with a weapon or touch attack spells, that BAB will be really useful, if you can manage it.

Last, as mentioned before, consider using some races and templates, even if you can't buy them off. Some races have extremely powerful abilities that would be worth giving up a few class levels if you can get your main build sorted, and the optimization adage of not losing caster levels doesn't really apply to you.

[ciopo]

if you pick ultimate magus, I suggest going divine bard 1 / wizard X / sublime chord 1 / ultimate magus Y, because the way sublime chord manipulates caster levels double dips when combo'ed with ultimate magus. (it's importnat that your only arcane classes are wizard and sublime chord and no others, because of how ultimate magus works)

the biggest impediment to entry on a wizard base for sublime chord are the skill requirements, if you want to do it in a timely faciton (i.e. ,pulling a bard 1 / wizard 9 / sublime chord 1 / ultimate magus 9 build at 20th level is quite hard to pull the requirements off)

[Crake]

if you pick ultimate magus, I suggest going divine bard 1 / wizard X / sublime chord 1 / ultimate magus Y, because the way sublime chord manipulates caster levels double dips when combo'ed with ultimate magus. (it's importnat that your only arcane classes are wizard and sublime chord and no others, because of how ultimate magus works)

the biggest impediment to entry on a wizard base for sublime chord are the skill requirements, if you want to do it in a timely faciton (i.e. ,pulling a bard 1 / wizard 9 / sublime chord 1 / ultimate magus 9 build at 20th level is quite hard to pull the requirements off)

Considering they have 50 levels to play around with, i dont imagine they need to worry about squeezing it into 20 levels

[Timestealer]

if you pick ultimate magus, I suggest going divine bard 1 / wizard X / sublime chord 1 / ultimate magus Y, because the way sublime chord manipulates caster levels double dips when combo'ed with ultimate magus. (it's importnat that your only arcane classes are wizard and sublime chord and no others, because of how ultimate magus works)

the biggest impediment to entry on a wizard base for sublime chord are the skill requirements, if you want to do it in a timely faciton (i.e. ,pulling a bard 1 / wizard 9 / sublime chord 1 / ultimate magus 9 build at 20th level is quite hard to pull the requirements off)

I don't need it in within 20 lvls so how should i distribute this across the 50 lvls?

[Timestealer]

The first thing you want to consider is having sufficient bab. Bab doesnt increase after level 20, so getting at least 16 bab is important to consider. My recommendation thusly would be to take 20 levels of fighter initially, as you can use all those bonus feats as fuel for the dark chaos feat shuffle later.

So start out as a martial class for 20 lvls and then go into spellcasting? that is rather interesting and useful if i can just swap out all the bonus feats using DCS. Is there a specific distribution of martial lvls that would be useful? how many feats should i spend on trying to acquire lvl 9 maneuvers?

[Crake]

So start out as a martial class for 20 lvls and then go into spellcasting? that is rather interesting and useful if i can just swap out all the bonus feats using DCS. Is there a specific distribution of martial lvls that would be useful? how many feats should i spend on trying to acquire lvl 9 maneuvers?

It really just depends on your final feat requirements and other such factors. If you can go elf and dcfs the proficiency feats, that gives you quite a bit of wiggle room in terms of feat swapping, and 50 levels does give you 17 baseline feats to play around with, so thats 21 right off the bat, fighter would give you another 11 to spend, but you need to ask yourself if you really need that many? Theres 12 feats for automatic still/silent/quicken, then another 2 for eschew and ignore material components, that leaves you with 7 more feats for general metamagic purposes if you dont get any levels of fighter. There are also other means of getting feats as well, like location feats.

Ultimately, i would determine how many feats you want, then work backward from there to determine how many fighter levels you want, vs other martial levels. Warblade for example offers uncanny dodge at level 2, while paladin can give you immunity to fear and cha to saves by level 3.

[schreier]

One option is to go wizard 5 /warlock 5 /Eldritch theurge 10/ rainbow servant 10 / Eldritch master 9 / loremaster 1 /
In the last 10 levels available just make sure you get up to 20+as a warlock
That could give you warlock epic feats and spellcasting as a wizard with access to cleric, druid, and wu-jen spells
Can take faerie mysteries initiate with level 1 lore master to add int to hp

Take wizard acf eidetic spellcaster to avoid losing spellbooks and spontaneous divination, then take the feats spell mastery and uncanny forethought to get lots of spontaneous casting options