OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread

[elecampane]

<...>
The comic blends some of the straight crunch from the game with the messier realities of a situation. Roy still throwing his sword is possibly the result of being unable to realistically approach in this round after retreating a bit from the flame breath, as it appears like Calder is actively trying to take back off.

Roy could also be attempting a disarm attack — trying to knock Bloodfeast out of Calder's mouth, either out of strategic, or out of emotional reasons. Strong hit to the head could've made the dragon drop what he's holding in his jaws, as a DM I would've allowed the attempt.

[Story]

That is how a Nat 20 on the Dispel check would look.

IIRC, nat 1/20s only auto succeed/fail on attack rolls and skill checks. And nat 20s only have a special effect on attack rolls (where they may cause a crit, assuming you don't have increased crit range, in which case it happens on other rolls too).

Also, I doubt V would have even attempted the dispelling if they only had a 5% chance of success.

[jokem]

I think Calder has had it. Proof once again you can never have enough hit points...

[danielxcutter]

IIRC, nat 1/20s only auto succeed/fail on attack rolls and skill checks. And nat 20s only have a special effect on attack rolls (where they may cause a crit, assuming you don't have increased crit range, in which case it happens on other rolls too).

Also, I doubt V would have even attempted the dispelling if they only had a 5% chance of success.

I thought it was attack rolls and saving throws.

[zql]

And that, kids, it's why you have to always chew with your mouth closed.

[danielxcutter]

And that, kids, it's why you have to always chew with your mouth closed.

I don't know how most kids grew up but if everyone else had their food turn into dinosaurs I must have been cheated out of something.

[Peelee]

I don't know how most kids grew up but if everyone else had their food turn into dinosaurs I must have been cheated out of something.

Nonono, we didn't because we chewed with out mouths closed. You were cheated out of that in the same way you were cheated out of having a Disintegration ray aimed at you.

[Provengreil]

Also, using ranged attacks means not being in full attack range of a dragon. True dragons are blenders.

That's a thought, but I don't think that's his reasoning here. The only times Calder hasn't gone straight for the threat that would be quickest to eliminate was when he was wrestling Bloodfeast off of his throat. At that moment, that target would have been Belkar.

Even then, both Roy and Calder can clearly do action economics mid combat, and while a true dragon is a blender he's still not the entire OOTS. He was moving to get off the ground again.

All that said, I think that sword throw was mostly artistic, just to keep the comic frame where Rich needed it while still communicating the ongoing battle.

[Kardwill]

All that said, I think that sword throw was mostly artistic, just to keep the comic frame where Rich needed it while still communicating the ongoing battle.

Yes, it's a way to show the dragon is still under heavy attack without needing to put Roy in the frame.

[brian 333]

4 attacks/round + 5' step

Attack 1: melee @ +16 BAB
Attack 2: melee @ +11 BAB
Attack 3: melee @ +6 BAB
Attack 4: ranged attack @ +1 BAB
Reposition in anticipation of next round and "PWOK!"

Not sure how Roy gives up anything since the damage is the same for all four attacks. Certainly his Str Bonus is much higher than his Dex Bonus to hit, but we see Belkar hitting with his off-hand, so Calder's AC can't be ridiculously high.

[danielxcutter]

Roy can’t use Power Attack with ranged attacks, and Calder has a long enough reach for a five-foot step to be approximately worth jack squat in terms of getting away from his full attack.

[jokem]

4 attacks/round + 5' step

Attack 1: melee @ +16 BAB
Attack 2: melee @ +11 BAB
Attack 3: melee @ +6 BAB
Attack 4: ranged attack @ +1 BAB
Reposition in anticipation of next round and "PWOK!"

Not sure how Roy gives up anything since the damage is the same for all four attacks. Certainly his Str Bonus is much higher than his Dex Bonus to hit, but we see Belkar hitting with his off-hand, so Calder's AC can't be ridiculously high.

Calder is pretty big, so his AC suffers due to that.

[danielxcutter]

Dragons have hilarious natural armor bonuses though. This does have the side effect of making them incredibly weak to touch attacks, though there’s a spell that just flat out turns it to a deflection bonus instead.

[Deathhappens]

You mean to tell me V could've done this at any time and Belkar hadn't threatened him with evisceration into doing it ages ago?

[Doug Lampert]

IIRC, nat 1/20s only auto succeed/fail on attack rolls and skill checks. And nat 20s only have a special effect on attack rolls (where they may cause a crit, assuming you don't have increased crit range, in which case it happens on other rolls too).

Also, I doubt V would have even attempted the dispelling if they only had a 5% chance of success.

I thought it was attack rolls and saving throws.

It is indeed only attacks and saves, checks (including skill checks, ability checks, and caster level checks) do not care at all about natural 1 or 20 beyond the numeric result.

[danielxcutter]

*air guitar riff*

[diplomancer]

What I like the best about the art in all this fight is how happy Bloodfeast looks throughout.

[arimareiji]

What I like the best about the art in all this fight is how happy Bloodfeast looks throughout.

If you knew you're a dinosaur, but everyone around you sees you as a lizard and treats you as a lizard... wouldn't you be thrilled for even a moment of being able to show everyone: "See? I ~am~ a dinosaur, godsdammit!"

[Emperor Time]

If you knew you're a dinosaur, but everyone around you sees you as a lizard and treats you as a lizard... wouldn't you be thrilled for even a moment of being able to show everyone: "See? I ~am~ a dinosaur, godsdammit!"

I have to agree with you there. Bloodfeast probably wanted to contribute more to the battle but knew it couldn't do much while in lizard form.

[Kardwill]

You mean to tell me V could've done this at any time and Belkar hadn't threatened him with evisceration into doing it ages ago?

Where would he have done that, though? On an Airship? In an underground dwarven city? In Gnometown? Or when they were trying to sneak around under Xykon's absence of nose?
An allosaurus is not very handy in most adventuring environments. If V transformed the dino earlier, then they would have been forced to either transform it back, or to leave him behind in the middle of the montains.

[KishouTheBadger]

Love Bloodfest carrying the win here. Belkar might get a lot of EXP for this.

Also waiting for O-Chul and Lien to come in last moment, barely getting context of the evil dragon, but both killing it anyway that just stuns the lovable crazy troll hobbit that's been on their case since kidnapping them. The only paladin she's ever known has been a morally dumb guy, but these two are more compromising on what should live or die. Lien's response being a callback to what she said (several times) to Therkla: "Good is not always Dumb."

[Kardwill]

Love Bloodfest carrying the win here.

The little lizard/dino has been a valuable party member for some time. He's the one who carried the win during the Serini fight, when he brought Minrah (and, by extension, Belkar, Elan and V) back into the game.

Just like Mr Scruffy saved the day during the final battle against not-Durkon.

The Belkar Adorable Pets Team has been quite busy being low-key awesome

[Provengreil]

Love Bloodfest carrying the win here. Belkar might get a lot of EXP for this.

Also waiting for O-Chul and Lien to come in last moment, barely getting context of the evil dragon, but both killing it anyway that just stuns the lovable crazy troll hobbit that's been on their case since kidnapping them. The only paladin she's ever known has been a morally dumb guy, but these two are more compromising on what should live or die. Lien's response being a callback to what she said (several times) to Therkla: "Good is not always Dumb."

I disagree with that characterization. Soon had an exceptionally strong moral founding: We can see that in his speech to Miko as she died, and in his resolution to any oath he takes. The fact that this shook out to the detriment of a character we currently support back when she tried to undermine that founding is not a strike against him.

[danielxcutter]

It’s worth remembering that while Soon likely had serious flaws the rest of the Scribblers were not exactly great either. Honestly I suspect Girard was at least as if not a worse problem than Soon.

[bunsen_h]

If you knew you're a dinosaur, but everyone around you sees you as a lizard and treats you as a lizard... wouldn't you be thrilled for even a moment of being able to show everyone: "See? I ~am~ a dinosaur, godsdammit!"

A dinosaur trained for fighting, who cannot pursue that "career". A giant carnivore, reduced to eating bugs and little critters (albeit they don't look so tiny when Bloodfeast is in lizard form). To the extent that he retains awareness of his past, his lizard form would have been very frustrating.

[gbaji]

Yes, it's a way to show the dragon is still under heavy attack without needing to put Roy in the frame.

Probably this.

Also, it looks like Calder has flipped upside up again, so presumably is flying again. I can't think of any reason for him not to just kinda automatically hover like 20' or so up in the air in this combat. I suspect the sudden arrival of a fully sized Bloodfeast in his mouth has brought him back down to the ground though.

Calder is pretty big, so his AC suffers due to that.

Yeah. Given the high AC of the dragon (minimum 32 or higher depending on actual age category) Roy doing a full attack is still a "probably one, maybe two" hits per round situation. Dropping that AC down a couple points to get a better shot at one hit per round might be worth it. Hard to say. My 3.5 mechanics rules are a bit rusty though. Is there a damage difference when using his weapon thrown versus melee? That might also be a factor here.

My gut tells me that he should have greater damage over time by being in melee range and using full attacks, but that may not necessarily be the case (plus, there may be some beneift to him using just a single standard action instead of a full round, if the difference in damage output is minor anyway). Dunno.

Also waiting for O-Chul and Lien to come in last moment, barely getting context of the evil dragon, but both killing it anyway that just stuns the lovable crazy troll hobbit that's been on their case since kidnapping them. The only paladin she's ever known has been a morally dumb guy, but these two are more compromising on what should live or die. Lien's response being a callback to what she said (several times) to Therkla: "Good is not always Dumb."

I'm not sure if Calder will try to surrender this time around, so that point may very well be moot. Also, I'm not sure how absolute the whole "must allow foes to surrender" bit is for a paladin. Think there was a conversation about this a few weeks ago, and the general consensus seemed like "it depends".

I also tend to think that Soon got a generally bad rap. From all actual observations of his behavior, he seems to have been a relatively level headed and sane paladin. While that still meant he was a paladin, and that may certainly have ruffled some feathers with the more chaotic members of his party (Serini and Girard), I suspect their interpretation and assumptions about him (and paladins in general) are quite a bit exaggerated. Girard assumed that Soon would break his oath, for example (and blamed Soon for Kraagor's death). Serini has made a series of assumptive statements about the paladins, only maybe half of which were actually correct.

If Calder does play the whole "I surrender; for real this time!" with them, I would not be surprised if the paladins, upon being informed of the events of the last time, and Calder's actions upon being released, would just be like "Yup. Had a chance for redemption, failed. Death penalty seems appropriate now", and move on.


Oh. As to Bloodfeast. If he survives this fight, I'm not sure what they'll do in the short term (could technically use polymorph on him, if there's only a shortish distance to go through small tunnels left to get to the gate). But, given Belkar's relatively short time left on this world, the good news is that we have another halfling right here, who has some experience working with and befriending monsters of all kinds. I could totally see Serini taking Bloodfeast if/when that happens.

[Shining Wrath]

As Belkar's animal companion, would Bloodfeast get a boost to intelligence?

This is not a RAW question, because Belkar is not a normal ranger. He dumped Wisdom ...

This goes to whether or not LizardFeast remembers that he is really Bloodfeast the Extreminator cruelly trapped in a tiny body, or does he just think of himself as a lizard and then it's WHOA HOW DID I GET HUGE?

[Doug Lampert]

As Belkar's animal companion, would Bloodfeast get a boost to intelligence?

This is not a RAW question, because Belkar is not a normal ranger. He dumped Wisdom ...

This goes to whether or not LizardFeast remembers that he is really Bloodfeast the Extreminator cruelly trapped in a tiny body, or does he just think of himself as a lizard and then it's WHOA HOW DID I GET HUGE?

Mr. Scruffy is almost certainly the animal companion. 3.0, you could have multiples and the limit was based on HD, but they had to be animals and 3.0 dinos weren't animals (they were beasts, a different category). 3.5 you only get one unless you take the wild cohort feat, and the first dinos show up at ranger level 14 and aren't that powerful. I think it's just a normal (advanced) allosaurus which Belkar used Animal Empanthy to befriend.

[brian 333]

It’s worth remembering that while Soon likely had serious flaws the rest of the Scribblers were not exactly great either. Honestly I suspect Girard was at least as if not a worse problem than Soon.

It has long been my opinion that Soon wasn't as bad as Serini remembers. The only time we actually saw him we saw a competent (to the point of scary) foe of Evil and a stern but compassionate father figure. Altogether, he seemed like a decent guy. Unraveling whose fault was whose 80 years ago is a task best left to the Deva on duty at the gates.

[Shining Wrath]

It has long been my opinion that Soon wasn't as bad as Serini remembers. The only time we actually saw him we saw a competent (to the point of scary) foe of Evil and a stern but compassionate father figure. Altogether, he seemed like a decent guy. Unraveling whose fault was whose 80 years ago is a task best left to the Deva on duty at the gates.

Let us remember that Serini was not unbiased - she was in love with Girard, due to that roguish (pun very much intended) sorcerer's charisma. The guy who was insulting her boyfriend was not going to get a fair treatment.

Soon's goodbye to Miko is one of the "Damn it's dusty in here, I'm not crying, you're crying" moments.