OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread

[Unoriginal]

I'm not arguing that the Crayons of Time are supposed to be an 1:1 reddition of what happened, especially when it's clear in-universe that the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard was at best incomplete, but they're still supposed to inform us of who the people involved were and the rough draft of how things went.

Also notable that the story of the events Shojo tells could only have come from Soon. So Soon was at least ready to admit he and two of his teammates were about to come to blows before Serini spoke up.

Personally I believe that Soon and Dorukan would have beaten each other up, but weren't the kind who'd actually kill someone in that situation, while Girard would have murdered Soon given half a chance.

It is interesting to think what would have happened if it *had* come to blows.

[Heroic Lich]

Uh, if the three got into a fight before Serini or Lirian had put a stop to it.
Girard wins initiative and tries to mess with Soon.
Soon's a paladin so makes his save because Paladin.
Soon smites Girard, but Girard isn't evil so he doesn't do bonus damage but Soon still does quite a bit.
Dorukun stands there surprised. Ok that's not fair. Dorukan would probably summon something to start to fight Soon.
Girard buffs himself for the fight while Soon is busy with the summoned creature.
I don't see this going well for Soon until he dies.
Depending on who kills Soon, either Dorukan attacks Girard or Girard just makes Dorukan feel worse about killing Soon. Either way, Girard has enough options to deal with Dorukan, especially if Dorukun spent too many of his spells on taking down Soon.

[Tzardok]

Why would Soon smite Girard? He's been adventuring with that guy for some time, he should know that he isn't evil.

[Provengreil]

I'm not arguing that the Crayons of Time are supposed to be an 1:1 reddition of what happened, especially when it's clear in-universe that the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard was at best incomplete, but they're still supposed to inform us of who the people involved were and the rough draft of how things went.

Just wanted to second this since GITP has no upvote/smart function. As much as we, and I included, debate the breakup of the Scribbler, it's abundantly clear that we do not have all the information needed to get a hard answer on the matter.

[KorvinStarmast]

I hear page 34 section V.1.d.iii of the Player's Handbook even has rules for how it's to be done.

All the more reason for my decision to take my 3.5 books and turn them in for beer money at Half Priced books ...

Which I actually did. But not for that reason.

[Unoriginal]

I mean... Soon was absolutely correct on Dorukan. Out of all the gate guardians, Dorukan was by and far the worst. Even Lirian had a better plan than him. Maybe it was because Serini kept stealing his good monsters but honestly even in his fight he was pretty lackluster. Dorukan's wards didn't really mean anything in the end because he seemed more obsessed with the novelty rather than using them correctly. I mean for crying out loud he protected the gate with the single most exploitable loophole imaginable, the built in a self-destruct button with no protections. Dorukan was a powerful wizard and a valuable scribbler but if I was Soon I certainly would never have given him free rein over more gates than necessary.

That an absolutely unfair and unsubstanciated statement.

Dorukan's wards managed to force Xykon and Redcloak to make a dead stop in their plans for literal months, even after he was killed.

Which is what allowed the Order of the Stick to show up and force Team Evil to change their plans entirely

And Soon himself recognized that destroying a Gate rather than have it fall into the wrong hands was a valid way to protect the world (with the caveat that there was no reason to do it if the threat to the Gate was taken care off by other means), so I don't know why the self-destruct is used as an argument against Dorukan here.

As for Dorukan's fight being lackluster, the Wizard did a blunder by going in without taking the time to prepare, due to Xykon managing to enrage him enough, but even with that disadvantage he still put on an hell of a fight, far better than Lirian's and lightyears ahead of Serini's (if you can call "getting ambushed when you're an Epic Rogue, defeated instantly and left for dead" to be a fight), and Xykon had to work hard to win. Martyr-Ghost!Soon did better sure, but because a) Paladins are sort of supposed to be good at fighting evil undead b) his Ghost-Paladin backups being there specifically to assist him c) Xykon being taken off-guard by the turn of events and wasting his turns using inefficient spells for most of the fight.

Personally I think Soon meant that relying exclusively on magical wards was the problem, not using wards. Or maybe he decided to change his mind, clearly Dorukan did since he also beefed up his defenses with monsters, betraying is "ONLY epic wards" statement.

Except there is no indicator Dorukan advocated for ONLY magic wards. The fact he built a dungeon that wasn't relying solely on them and helped build a second is an indicator of the contrary, in fact, not an indicator of "Dorukan betrayed his statement".

EDIT:
I reread SoD and Dorukan isn't as bad as I paint him out to be. He was pretty dumb but not full on incompetent

He was neither dumb nor incompetent (partially or otherwise).

EDIT:

It's fair to say he messed up a fairly solid defense by letting Xykon goad him into an impulsive attack, but even Ghost-Soon fell for that at one point in the fight for the Sapphire, which allowed Redcloak to Turn nearly all of Soon's ghostly reinforcement without any opposition while Soon whaled on Xykon. Despite the Paladin stating the instant before that they should ignore the Lich for now and destroy the Cleric first. It's only when Xykon reminded Soon of the phylactery issue that Soon re-focused on Redcloak.

[Peelee]

Just wanted to second this since GITP has no upvote/smart function.

Excuse me, I'm very much a smart function.

[arimareiji]

Excuse me, I'm very much a smart function.

Wait, I thought you were a smart functionary (of the forums)?

[hroþila]

I don't think Dorukan was dumb or that he was enraged and thus blundered into attacking (he seemed relatively calm and collected to me, despite his anger). He simply took a calculated risk and lost, but the idea that it might be his only chance to save Lirian had merit

[danielxcutter]

I mean let’s be real, most people still kinda understand why Dorukan lost his chill.

[Peelee]

Wait, I thought you were a smart functionary (of the forums)?

Potato tomato.

[arimareiji]

Potato tomato.

Thankfully no wizards have gotten drunk enough to try that yet... https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0322.html

[Unoriginal]

I don't think Dorukan was dumb or that he was enraged and thus blundered into attacking (he seemed relatively calm and collected to me, despite his anger). He simply took a calculated risk and lost, but the idea that it might be his only chance to save Lirian had merit

Well by Epic Wizard standards, going in a fight you're not prepared for against a powerful opponent who did prepare for that is a tactical blunder.

It is true that "I only got this one chance" was not a baseless assumption at all.

I mean let’s be real, most people still kinda understand why Dorukan lost his chill.

Absolutely.

In any case I think it's telling that even with Dorukan having no prep time, the fight was still fairly even.

Dorukan was competent, and all we see or hear about him show he spent his whole life protecting the world to the best of his capacities.

Thankfully no wizards have gotten drunk enough to try that yet...

I think that's how we got fries with ketchup.

[Kish]

Getting into the bad vodka, indeed.

[Precure]

There is some serious problems regarding Soon's gate:

1. Aristocracy aren't aware of the gate, which led them to follow policies that might harm its security.

2. It's close to the ruler, making it a possible unintended target of any attack on the ruler himself.

3. Ghost Martyrs are kept as a secret even from the guardians of the gates, paladins, themselves, cause them to try/do destroy the gate prematurely.

Is it just me, or does anyone else kinda feel sorry for Calder? I mean, I'm not rooting for him, but I'm not rooting against him, either...

He's ironically the little guy here, a David to NEOOTS.

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, in hindsight I don't think the nobles would have been able to help against Xykon anyways.

[Precure]

I assume they would be more willing to stop Xykon if they knew that the world they live is at stake.

[Unoriginal]

3. Ghost Martyrs are kept as a secret even from the guardians of the gates, paladins, themselves, cause them to try/do destroy the gate prematurely.

The Paladins did know about the Ghost-Martyr measures. Hinjo mentions that they know "where they should make their stand" and O-Chul directly calls it a sacrifice.

To be fair, in hindsight I don't think the nobles would have been able to help against Xykon anyways.

Against Xykon himself, probably not, but they took valuable troops with them, removed their boats from the equation when they could have taken more people (and likely supplies) with them, and actively hindered the defense by sending assassins against the person in charge. Hinjo even mentions it was possible the nobles had decently-leveled wizards with them when they left.

Even just the have-PC-class-levels individuals we know Kubota had at his disposal (Therkla, Qarr and the two ninja who attacked Hinjo) would have made a difference if put against the hobgoblin army.

[KorvinStarmast]

He simply took a calculated risk and lost, but the idea that it might be his only chance to save Lirian had merit

it requires no overthinking to arrive at this position, which has merit.

[Precure]

The Paladins did know about the Ghost-Martyr measures. Hinjo mentions that they know "where they should make their stand" and O-Chul directly calls it a sacrifice.

Hinjo, as part of royal family, probably know it, but O-Chul and other paladins did not. That's why they're going to destroy the gate if not for Xykon's intervention.

[Unoriginal]

Hinjo, as part of royal family, probably know it, but O-Chul and other paladins did not. That's why they're going to destroy the gate if not for Xykon's intervention.

After re-reading, you're correct and I was wrong. My apologies.

[gbaji]

Dorukan was competent, and all we see or hear about him show he spent his whole life protecting the world to the best of his capacities.

I don't know about "whole life". Don't get me wrong, he and Lirian (and the rest of the Scribblers) get a lot of credit for finding and sealing the rifts, but every indication is that once he built his gate and put his sigil (and self destruct) on it, he basically just kind left it in the basement and ignored it for the next 50 years or so. The rest of the dungeon seemed to be more about various other magical experiments and whatever else it is that high level wizards do with their time.

As much as he's arguably the most jerkish of the entire bunch, only Girard seemed to have committed his entire life (and created and committed generations of his descendents) solely to the defense of his gate. Serini probably comes in second in that the whole of Monster Hollow serves no purpose other than defense of the gate (but she loses points for basically leaving it alone for long periods of time to go off and do other things). Soon's gate defenses were serving double duty as a throne room. It's unclear how much of the defenses around Lirian's gate were dedicated to the gate and how much was the standard "I'm a druid, so me and my followers defend the forest, and there just happens to also be a gate in there".

But yeah. Dorukan? I suspect he hadn't given his gate or its defenses a single thought in decades by the time Xykon came along, much less spent any time or effort on them. Doesn't mean that they were weak as a result, but just that the idea that he dedicated his whole life to defending it (and by extension the world) is a bit of an exaggeration.

[woweedd]

The way I see it, Soon was probably kinda a jerk to his party, but, like, in the same way that Roy was a major jerk to his party back in the early days. The difference is that, after that...Incident in the bandit forest, Roy grew, changed, became someone worthy of his party's loyalty. I don't think Soon was a bad person, but I suspect he didn't consider the Scribblers friends, just means to get his vengeance. Once his quest was done, he didn't want to spend more time with them. That's kinda the running theme with the Scribblers: They were far more competent INDIVUALLY then the Order ever have been, but they never really grew past the initial dysfunction. They worked together out of self-preservation. Once the Quest was over and they no longer needed to work together, the group self-destructed in dramatic fashion. Especially after Kraggor's death caused their existing tensions to boil over. I don't think Soon was a jerk, his interactions with Miko paint him as an honest-but-not-unkind man, but he valued his goals above his teammates, and I don't doubt that played a major role in almost none of them wanting to see each other ever again. As I said, Roy is an instructive contrast: While the Order of the Stick have their issues, Roy has always, at least since the forest thing, tried his best to mitigate internal tension where he could. It feels like Soon's stiff stoicism just wasn't as well suited to dealing with resentments. I'm guessing, but, basically, good person, compassionate, really hard to work with, would be my guess as to Soon's vibe. A Good guy, but not a nice guy.

[arimareiji]

I think that's how we got fries with ketchup.

Thank you for putting a much better spin on it, I was imagining something with the textures of a tomato but the taste and color of a potato. (^_^)b

I assume they would be more willing to stop Xykon if they knew that the world they live is at stake.

You have much more faith in humanity than I do. (^_^)º

(Let alone the nobility of Azure City, if Hinjo's descriptions are within a mile of reality.)

[Kish]

You have much more faith in humanity than I do. (^_^)º

(Let alone the nobility of Azure City, if Hinjo's descriptions are within a mile of reality.)

Quite.

(I am blinking at the idea that Kubota would consider "the world will die" worse than "you'll die, but the world will go on without you." Between me and Precure, one of us has apparently read Kubota quite wrong.)

[Doug Lampert]

Quite.

(I am blinking at the idea that Kubota would consider "the world will die" worse than "you'll die, but the world will go on without you." Between me and Precure, one of us has apparently read Kubota quite wrong.)

But Kubota was appearently the worst of a bad lot. It's quite possible, that had they known that the world was at stake, some or all of the other nobles would have pulled together.

OTOH Telling Kubota and anyone else like him a decade or two ago that there are a bunch of gates, and if you control one of them you may be able to blackmail the gods and the entire population of the world, and that one is built into the throne of the city; that just MIGHT be more of a hinderance to defending the gates than losing the other nobles' forces right before the goblins attack.

So all in all, I must say that not telling them seems like the right call to me.

[brian 333]

OTOH Telling Kubota and anyone else like him a decade or two ago that there are a bunch of gates, and if you control one of them you may be able to blackmail the gods and the entire population of the world, and that one is built into the throne of the city; that just MIGHT be more of a hinderance to defending the gates than losing the other nobles' forces right before the goblins attack.

That's just it: you cannot blackmail all the gods. Even being close to gaining control of where the rift opens is enough to have the gods voting to destroy the world. The gods can unmake the world faster than the gate ritual can be performed. TDO would know this if he had maintained contact with the other gods.

All of the deities have a vested interest in not allowing anyone to manipulate the rifts. Because of their rules they mostly choose to not interfere other than through their clergy. So, trying to use the rift is little more than a complicated way to commit suicide, and that is all it ever was.

Kubota might think he can use the bluff of controlling the gate, but he was not suicidal.

[danielxcutter]

But Kubota was appearently the worst of a bad lot. It's quite possible, that had they known that the world was at stake, some or all of the other nobles would have pulled together.

OTOH Telling Kubota and anyone else like him a decade or two ago that there are a bunch of gates, and if you control one of them you may be able to blackmail the gods and the entire population of the world, and that one is built into the throne of the city; that just MIGHT be more of a hinderance to defending the gates than losing the other nobles' forces right before the goblins attack.

So all in all, I must say that not telling them seems like the right call to me.

I believe the Giant has stated that Kubota was the only one trying to overthrow Hinjo after the retreat and the rest knew it really wasn't the time to do that. And that the whole thing with Shojo and Miko had happened any time else they would have grumbled a bit as Hinjo shut down all their scheming but would have fallen into line sooner or later.

Heck, the guy literally tried to make deals with the Lower Planes and they said no because they didn't think it was worth it. If that's not an indicator of his overinflated ambitions I don't know what is.

[Vikenlugaid]

Do you believe Soon lied to her then? If so, what specifically about?


IIRC the author's view of the matter, at least for this story, is that people can only fundamentally change while they're alive. It's why Xykon isn't getting a character arc while every other major character has. Dead Soon now is who Live Soon was.

I am not saying he changed when he died, bit when he aged, we know Soon had a long life.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, look at how Serini was back then, and then look at her now. People changing after several decades is a thing.