OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread

[Doug Lampert]

No, it would be 27 if Miron were as low level as Vaarsuvius. Miron is more likely higher level, likely low epic, so the dispel check only had like one in three chance to succeed.

Miron completely failed to cast any level 9 spells on screen, nor are any clearly implied to have been cast off-screen. His caster level is probably 15 or 16.

Class and level geekery found no evidence for higher level. In fact, no member of the Vector legion is confirmed to be higher than level 16.

"Vampires have LA +8 therefore the Vector Legion would have been low-epic" is... rather unconvincing if you ask me. I think it's more likely that they're each around CR 16~17ish, accounting for having player character-equivalent WBL in items.

Malack is confirmed to have been a level 12 cleric. If he's an NPC, then note that a lizardfolk cleric 12 vampire is only CR 14 (2 racial HD gives CR 1; first 2 levels of cleric are disassociated, and give elite abilities and cleric 2 for only +1 CR to CR 2; next 10 levels of cleric are associated and raise the CR to 12; vampire brings it up to 14).

So, the one case where we know the level, it gives the Vector Legion CR 14. I'm not seeing epic foes here, and foes use CR not ECL.

If Miron has level 9 spells, I'd expect to have seen them. Level 9s are a really big deal.

[Shadowknight12]

Hmmm....

Does Dispel work on dead creatures? Cuz if yes ... I think V jumped the gun here.

I mean, I love Bloodfeast the Exterminator and would weep hot tears if he died ... but if they had allowed Calder to chew up Bloodfeast the salamander, swallow him, end up in Calder's GI tract ... and then V cast Dispel ... what are the D&D rules for damage inflicted by a giant dinosaur materializing inside your stomach? Is that survivable?

Dispel Magic and its Greater version have two cast modes: single-target and area of effect.

For the single-target option, we have this problem, as per the Magic Overview section of the PHB:

Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target.

And as for the AoE option, we have this one:

A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. [...]

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).

TL;DR: Once swallowed, it is no longer a valid target for dispelling (unless you cut an opening into the digestive tract).

[The MunchKING]

I mean, I love Bloodfeast the Exterminator and would weep hot tears if he died ... but if they had allowed Calder to chew up Bloodfeast the salamander, swallow him, end up in Calder's GI tract ... and then V cast Dispel ...

Line of effect. Caldur's scales, muscles, organs, and possibly bones would get in the way of the shot.

Hmmm....

Does Dispel work on dead creatures? Cuz if yes ... I think V jumped the gun here.

Actually now that I've said that, don't most Polymorph effects say they end when the creature dies?? Caldur could have been about to do that to himself.

[LookieLouE1707]

I'd like to think that the last thing that went through Calder's head, other than the allosaur, was to wonder how Serini's pals ever managed to get the best of him.

[Shadowknight12]

Actually now that I've said that, don't most Polymorph effects say they end when the creature dies?? Caldur could have been about to do that to himself.

Baleful Polymorph (the specific spell used on Bloodfeast) does not have such clause, and the Duration of "Permanent" does not specify that either.

[Precure]

Still, nothing stops Calder from bbqing Bloodfeast and having a feast on bloody dinosaur shish kebabs.

True, but I was thinking the same thing about V. Not looking too good there.

To be fair, she's probably drunk

[elecampane]

Exactly. That's why it seems so obvious that something will let them jump right in.

<...>

In other words they are just below monster hollow but there isn't any door to walk in unless a couple of behemoths (and possibly a beholder with a disintegration beam) opens one up.

I doubt it's thin, but the point stands. It is a trick we've seen her use before and it really doesn't cause any story problems here.

The dungeon is likely still located somewhere nearby and is just surrounded by walls that travel\divination\whatever as Team Evil noted before.
<>

It is protected against scrying, but not divinations. Serini was specifically careful about the possibility of divination magic revealing ways to enter the final dungeon. Why would someone as paranoid as Serini create a dungeon that could be defeated with a 4th level spell and a pickaxe? Redcloak could've simply casted divination, gotten something along the lines of

Find yourself on the ground floor
Look for door number four
Keep your hand on right-side wall
Till you reach a small landfall
Strike the wall with all your might
There you'll find your delight

and entered the final dungeon without wasting any time. I'm pretty sure the gate is reasonably isolated from the surface. And for all we know, it might be miles away from the actual monster hollow. Sure, team Evil might still bypass all the traps somehow, but I doubt it would be through Calder busting through the walls. Also I kinda doubt that all the buildup about how deadly and merciless this dungeon level is will be spent on "look at how much defenses we'd lost because of Calder"

A couple of people have commented that Calder is finished, but I think he's improved his position in the last round. Sure, he failed to dispose of Bloodfeast, but he has got rid of the Beholder (for the moment at least), and got another dragon breath off on the party without taking any damage himself. He's had three breaths on them now, so some must be close to death by now (the fact that none have died is pretty good evidence that Calder isn't as powerful of a dragon as people thought IMO).

I mean, if his jaw is really dislocated, he probably can't cast spells with verbal components, can't use his bite attack and possibly even his fire breath attacks will get wonky. Sure, he still has a ton of hp and his claw/tail/wing attacks, but those aren't nearly as deadly. (And he obviously took damage here — a stab from Belkar and two arrows from Haley.)

Also, this fight has gone some time now, and Serini hasn;t participated at all. I wonder if none of her attacks can hurt Calder, or if there is some other reason why she's not doing anything.

Maybe when Calder first surrendered they swore an oath they wouldn't harm him, and she's for some reason beholden to that? I mean, it's unlikely Soon would cast Mark of Justice on her, but her lack of participation is glaring.

This encounter is looking good now, the problem is how unexpectedly it has costed the Order a lot of resources. Both mechanical (high level spell slots) and narrative (Bloodfeast). Any potential advantage over Team Evil is lost now.

I mean, the Quinton estimated the time needed to search through the whole monster hollow to be around 2 days, so unless team Evil really drops on them through a hole, they still have time to fully recuperate spells and hp. And as far as narrative surprises go — there's still MitD.

How the hell is V still alive? Took a Polar Ray and then a greatwyrm's breath weapon ... damage exceeds HP by double.

Polar ray is strong, but there's ways to buff hp. Bear's endurance is like +30 hp for them now. There's also temporary hp. As for the breath, I don't believe Calder is a Great Wyrm, and they had resist fire on, that prevents 30 damage. If they've made their save, the damage would be very low.

[fourcolor]

I want to say two things:

One, there should be a spell that explicitly (and only) makes anything in one's mouth turn into a dinosaur.

Two, I bet the dragon's jaw is dino-sore!

That is all.

[dmc91356]

I'd like to think that the last thing that went through Calder's head, other than the allosaur, was to wonder how Serini's pals ever managed to get the best of him.

This is awesome. You should add "Red" somewhere in your forum name.

[Provengreil]

I'd like to think that the last thing that went through Calder's head, other than the allosaur, was to wonder how Serini's pals ever managed to get the best of him.

This forum has no upvotes so allow me to say LOL!

This encounter is looking good now, the problem is how unexpectedly it has costed the Order a lot of resources. Both mechanical (high level spell slots) and narrative (Bloodfeast). Any potential advantage over Team Evil is lost now.

On the other hand, and I believe Elan would agree, I can't see two consecutive epic battles happening, pacing should go down for at least 20 strips before major action comes. But this comic has always been unpredictable, so who knows.

I expect we'll cut back to Team Evil, it's been a while since we saw them.

[Devlerbat]

I kind of feel like this should have broken Calder's jaw, but I would understand if this aspect of realism isn't followed (even though I honestly would like it to be). Though I suppose that it is also possible that my understanding of the physics involved is incorrect in this instance.

[KorvinStarmast]

Miron completely failed to cast any level 9 spells on screen, nor are any clearly implied to have been cast off-screen. His caster level is probably 15 or 16.

Or, unlike Laurin he does not break out the big guns early, and he had something in reserve when the Contingency triggered. (but I think you are right, in terms of Class and Level Geekery as a context).

If Miron has level 9 spells, I'd expect to have seen them. Level 9s are a really big deal.

They are, but, they are also rare (in terms of slots per day and "what did I prepare today" so it may be that his 9th level didn't fit that situation.

[HalfTangible]

: YOU COULD HAVE DONE THAT THIS WHOLE TIME?!?

yep i can totally see next comic starting with belkar uttering something similar to that LOL

: Of course not.
: Just any time I felt like it.

[Peelee]

OThey are, but, they are also rare (in terms of slots per day and "what did I prepare today"

Sorcerer. He doesn't need to prepare.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sorcerer. He doesn't need to prepare.

If he has one slot, then his choices are limited.
Again, the spell he had may not have fit the situation.

[TheNecrocomicon]

That has to hurt, although obviously Calder is not down or dead yet. I have to wonder how much more damage he can soak up, but I guess I end up wondering that about basically any boss.

Count me as not thinking this is going to do anything to wreck the dungeon's structure, because given the damage that existed in the room before this fight began, if Calder could have broken out by now, he would have. Or maybe it'll create some little minute crack that someone could use to ghostform or teleport through or something.

It worries me what is about or in Serini's staff that the narrative required it to be left behind downstairs when Serini took off after Sunny in a panic. There's no way that won't be important later.

Vaarsuvius looks nearly down as befits a squishy wizard without room to get to a safe distance and cast from there, but they've probably been downing potions offscreen in the brief spans between dragon attacks and presumably have other helpful/protective buffs applied.

Sorcerer. He doesn't need to prepare.

I'm not sure what if anything specified that Miron is a sorcerer rather than a wizard. Narratively, actually, I'd be more inclined to believe he's a wizard, for team variety in the Vector Legion, since Laurin is a psion, which is very sorcerer-esque in nature. (Otherwise they have Tarquin as a fighter, Jacinda as presumably a rogue, and one other guy we basically know nothing about, except he's very likely not a cleric, since that was Malack's job.)

[Peelee]

If he has one slot, then his choices are limited.
Again, the spell he had may not have fit the situation.

My friend, as someone who's favorite class is sorcerer, let me assure you: if you only have one slot, you figure out how to make it fit any situation.

[Thoughtbot360]

This dragon learned from the other dragon story arc.

Unfortunately for him....

...so did V.


Imma Muthafuggen T-Rex encore?

[The MunchKING]

Baleful Polymorph (the specific spell used on Bloodfeast) does not have such clause, and the Duration of "Permanent" does not specify that either.

The general description of Polymorph effects doesn't say anything about that either in the SRD. So, either it's a book thing that didn't get put in the SRD, or I'm thinking of a different game. Either way it wasn't happening in comic. *Shrug*

[danielxcutter]

Polymorph (the 4th level spell) has a duration at least?

[Diachronos]

well now we have the problem of how the order will bring bloodfeast with them when they finish this fight and leave this place. But I guess, now that the Bloodfeast gun has been fired, they don't necessarily need him, so he might be Bloodfeast the deadinator by the end of this fight.

Still, awesome fight! I didn't know how much I needed a dinosaur vs dragon fight in my life until now.

There are spells that can shrink a creature. If nobody from the Order can cast it (pretty sure it's not on the Cleric list at all and I don't necessarily see V having a reason to pick it up in the past), Serini's bound to have a wand or scroll for it lying around somewhere.

[Tzardok]

The general description of Polymorph effects doesn't say anything about that either in the SRD. So, either it's a book thing that didn't get put in the SRD, or I'm thinking of a different game. Either way it wasn't happening in comic. *Shrug*

It's in the description of the spell Polymorph itself. Also in Alter Self, and by extension all spells with a rider "this spell works like Polymorph, except" like Shapechange. It's specifically Baleful Polymorph that lacks this trait, both directly and indirectly.

[Kardwill]

Also a good catch. We know that sometimes healing potions heal clothing as well, so does that mean V hasn't healed the damage from the polar ray yet? Or has, and Rich is leaving the holes in V's clothes? Or maybe V has just partially healed the damage?

I would have guessed that the potion healed part of the damage, but V still has every scratch mark (to his clothes AND to his face) we saw in previous strips, with all-new burn marks from the firebreath.

Dunno. It can be explained several ways (magical protection, good CON score, temp HP, buff spell...). The important thing is that V still has some HP left, although probably not a lot : V looks really roughed up in that last strip.

Hmmm....

Does Dispel work on dead creatures? Cuz if yes ... I think V jumped the gun here.

Even without the line-of-sight stuff, V's not the kind of elf that would purposedly let someone get killed just because it's the most efficient way to deal with an enemy. Or, more accurately, they're not that elf anymore. Old V saw NPCs as ressources, inconveniences and worthless distractions, but current V has grown past that point.

I think that dispel wasn't aimed at hurting Calder, but at rescuing a party member from certain death, even if said party member is "only" Belkar's pet. That fits with V's character growth, especially with he way they now see blackwing as a full partner rather than as a convenient class feature.

[SlashDash]

Why would Calder blasting a hole in the mountain that Team Evil can then walk through easily be a good story in the first place?

The fact that team evil reaches the gate is not just good storytelling it's practically mandatory at this point.

The story isn't likely to be close to the end. Many plot threads are still left and heck we're only about 110 strips into this book when the last one was almost 250.

So the odds of just having 100+ more strips of the party just walking in this dungeon is 0.
There are also many outside characters that need to make a return in one way or another and they can't just show up at this dungeon.
So Roy's plan of just making it to the gate and set up camp there isn't going to happen either.

The dungeon crawling part of this story will end and very shortly - shortly in terms of page numbers. Not real life of course.

That would be an instant death sentence to everyone in the world, literally; when the Order doesn't have a great chance of beating Xykon on his own even in ideal situations, how would making Team Evil with a nearly full tank of spells and the OotS at their weakest end well?

You answered your own question. If a fight goes off now the likelihood is that team evil wins and that's obviously not how the story goes. So the good guys are going to make a run for it and avoid a direct confrontation to the death. Just like the dwarves did earlier this morning.

Based on what Redcloak said earlier, he expects them to get to the gate by the end of the week but have the Snarl by the end of the year. That means that team evil will have to sit on the gate for some time and that is even assuming there isn't something else that stops them. For example, maybe some of the walls will collapse on the gate and they'll have to dig it out and they can't do it magically for some reason?
Just tossing ideas.

The point is that any good story will put the bad guys with the advantage to make it that much more dramatic when the good guys defeat them. So team evil need to be the ones with the upper hand so they will have the advantage of guarding the flag for a while.

That is the time where all the other plots come into place.

I mean heck, forget about all the other plots - what about the actual main plot? We know the story has to end with Redcloak joining the good guys in sealing the gates. How would that work if this dungeon crawling isn't stopped?
Good guys make it to the gate, make camp, Xykon shows up 2 days later attacks them and Redcloak just decides to change his mind mid-fight? Will they defeat team evil and then hold Redcloak as prisoner until he cooperates?

Not going to happen. They have to put a pause on the whole thing and other events will happen to get Redcloak to start thinking on things.

I'll even repeat my earlier prediction on exactly what that is

Spoiler: prediction

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Hel has to go all or nothing at this point as she has nothing to lose. She will send a vampire to the north pole that will join team evil in an attempt to get them to rush to execute their plans - which based on what Loki said would mean the gods still have a chance in 10 minutes to destroy the world thus sealing her win.

Said vampire will get team evil to argue and Xykon's preference to undead and likely finding out that Redcloak lied to him about the ritual will cause them to split up and Redcloak leaves team evil to realize that Xykon getting the gate by himself will be the death of all goblins and would finally realize he is better off compromising for the safety of his people.

[Kardwill]

I mean heck, forget about all the other plots - what about the actual main plot? We know the story has to end with Redcloak joining the good guys in sealing the gates.

We don't know that. It's the proposed optimal plan, but we know it's incomplete (Thor doesn't know about the planet), and it has a fair chance of being more complicated (since plans never go as expected, especially when the audience already knows the plan ^^). My bet is that the "final fight" will just be the setup for the actual finale about (or even "on") the riftworld.

[Unoriginal]

Not to open up this can of worms again, but V has already killed many, many non-evil characters (the Draketooths) with Familicide.

I also meant it would be like Kraagor -- Belkar would be jumping into.the fray headfirst, as usual, and V casts a rift sealing spell that kills Belkar. I didn't think V was just going to blast him to bits. Although I suppose an errant Prismatic Spray could make Belkar into cool statue - maybe that seals the rift so he cannot be de-stoned without destroying the world.

But hey, I am no author of a fun webcomic, so who knows? Besides Rich.

Vaarsuvius doesn't know any spell or other method to seal the rifts.

If they did the Order could just have gone to where the Dungeon of Dorukan and Lirian's Gate used to stand and closed the rifts there, which would have greatly diminished the danger the world is in.

I mean heck, forget about all the other plots - what about the actual main plot? We know the story has to end with Redcloak joining the good guys in sealing the gates.

Honestly, given who Redcloak is and has repeatedly demonstrated to be, I'd say Xykon joining the good guys in sealing the Gates would be more likely to happen.

Not that I think either would happen, just that Xykon would be more willing to do it because he knows he earns nothing if the world is destroyed. Meanwhile Redcloak has directly stated that even if the world destruction isn't an empty threat, he would let the world be destroyed rather than not winning (by his own, wounded-ego-motivated definition of winning). And that he'd justify it to himself with "if it happens, next world's goblins will have a better deal".

[Ruck]

There are also many outside characters that need to make a return in one way or another and they can't just show up at this dungeon.

How many characters are you thinking of? I think for a large majority of the characters who aren't present at the Gate now, their story is essentially over. Hinjo is the one notable exception, and I don't see why he couldn't show up at the dungeon. (EDIT: The IFCC, and Sabine, are still relevant, but the IFCC doesn't have to directly show up to make an impact, and Sabine herself certainly could.) For the rest, there's cutaways, or the denouement, depending on how important they are or why they need to show up.

Based on what Redcloak said earlier, he expects them to get to the gate by the end of the week but have the Snarl by the end of the year. That means that team evil will have to sit on the gate for some time and that is even assuming there isn't something else that stops them. For example, maybe some of the walls will collapse on the gate and they'll have to dig it out and they can't do it magically for some reason?
Just tossing ideas.

The ritual itself takes several weeks to complete. I don't think Team Evil is going to get to the gate before the good guys do. So I think any scenario where something happens to stop them during the ritual necessarily would involve the Order's defeat, which isn't going to happen.

Also, I think your prediction contradicts this statement:

The story isn't likely to be close to the end. Many plot threads are still left and heck we're only about 110 strips into this book when the last one was almost 250.

Spoiler

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With so many existent plot threads to be resolved and characters still relevant to the story-- let alone however many you think need to make a return appearance-- I don't really think we're going to see a new faction appear out of virtually nowhere.

Obviously, Hel isn't literally "out of nowhere," but a new vampire character would be. And I think Hel's role in the story was to be a main antagonist of the last book, and that has been fulfilled. Whatever needs to be resolved with her-- like, say, how she'll survive if this world is saved-- doesn't require her to be an active factor in the main plot.

Spoiler

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I also don't really follow how your proposed scenario would happen based on what we know. I don't think a Xykon and Redcloak split would be in any way peaceful enough that Redcloak could just walk away and reconsider. Also, Xykon doesn't have a way to control or manipulate the Gate without Redcloak.

I also think that it's much less satisfying for "random third-party character shows up and that ends up changing Redcloak's mind" rather than the Order changing Redcloak's mind. But that's my opinion, whereas the previous paragraph seems pretty well informed by the facts of the story.

[danielxcutter]

The fact that team evil reaches the gate is not just good storytelling it's practically mandatory at this point.

The story isn't likely to be close to the end. Many plot threads are still left and heck we're only about 110 strips into this book when the last one was almost 250.

So the odds of just having 100+ more strips of the party just walking in this dungeon is 0.
There are also many outside characters that need to make a return in one way or another and they can't just show up at this dungeon.
So Roy's plan of just making it to the gate and set up camp there isn't going to happen either.

The dungeon crawling part of this story will end and very shortly - shortly in terms of page numbers. Not real life of course.

First of all, just nitpicking/clarifying; the Giant said this last bit is going to be a single book "even if it looks like a telephone book" so page number isn't going to help a lot. Not that it really affects this specifically either way, I just wanted to say that.

Also, the primary dangling plot hook besides Team Evil are the IFCC and really, I don't doubt they'd be able to force their way somehow. Archfiends are right below actual deities and they've been preparing an artifact.

You answered your own question. If a fight goes off now the likelihood is

-that either the gods blow up the world or TE gets the Gate. The entire point of this storyline is that this is the last Gate so it has to end here.

[Errorname]

I mean heck, forget about all the other plots - what about the actual main plot? We know the story has to end with Redcloak joining the good guys in sealing the gates.

We very much do not know that. We know that all the characters think this is the only way to win, but I find it very easy to imagine that whatever revelations about the Snarl that come will open another path to victory after Thor's plan conclusively fails. I can think of a lot of stories, especially RPGs, with this exact setup where the climax comes about after the heroes fail to stop the apocalyptic threat from being unleashed, and while I don't think this has to end like that it still easily could.

[drazen]

Still, nothing stops Calder from bbqing Bloodfeast and having a feast on bloody dinosaur shish kebabs.

Well, much like Calder never fired off his breath weapon while being strangled by his throat in an allosaurus's jaws, it looks like Blooodfeast's rump materialized *down Calder's throat* which also might prevent it from firing (also, hence the choking sound Calder makes).

I am a total rules ignoramus in D&D, but I doubt 3.5E D&D speaks to this one way or the other, unless maybe bird-brained Elan points this out in a callback to all the Dungeon Crawling Fools "silly nonsensical rules" jokes, and suddenly Calder can breathe fire again. But those seem less appropriate near the climax.