OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread

[Provengreil]

1- To say nice words to a diying person is not being specially good, it is just not being an really bad person. I can't think of anyone non-evil character of this comic who wouldn't have done the same.

Do you believe Soon lied to her then? If so, what specifically about?

2- We know how dead Soon was, but maybe he wasn't like that in the past. Maybe he went better as he aged, maybe he felt guilty?

IIRC the author's view of the matter, at least for this story, is that people can only fundamentally change while they're alive. It's why Xykon isn't getting a character arc while every other major character has. Dead Soon now is who Live Soon was.

[danielxcutter]

I think Vik means he changed after the Scribblers broke up but before he croaked.

[brian 333]

In Serini's description he was being a jerk for refusing to see her. After he vowed he'd never see her. He didn't seem too happy about it, but he kept his word, which is exactly what Girard, in his Programmed Illusion, bet Soon would not do.

When you really look at things, even though we do not have Soon's version of the story, it appears that Serini and Girard were the real jerks, and while Soon may have been less than perfect, he was a much better person than either Girard or Serini.

[arimareiji]

In Serini's description he was being a jerk for refusing to see her. After he vowed he'd never see her. He didn't seem too happy about it, but he kept his word, which is exactly what Girard, in his Programmed Illusion, bet Soon would not do.

When you really look at things, even though we do not have Soon's version of the story, it appears that Serini and Girard were the real jerks, and while Soon may have been less than perfect, he was a much better person than either Girard or Serini.

It wouldn't be the first time the Giant has played with the Unreliable Narrator trope. Even if an impeccably-good-hearted person wholeheartedly believes something, that doesn't necessarily mean it's true from an objective standpoint. And if not even paladins* can be trusted to be impeccably good-hearted (with Miko and bonus-content examples that are almost reductio ad absurdum), then I don't think anyone can.

* - Absolutely, there are examples of really-good-hearted and perhaps even impeccably-so paladins. But not all of them, despite the class being designed as the exemplars thereof.

[gbaji]

In Serini's description he was being a jerk for refusing to see her. After he vowed he'd never see her. He didn't seem too happy about it, but he kept his word, which is exactly what Girard, in his Programmed Illusion, bet Soon would not do.

When you really look at things, even though we do not have Soon's version of the story, it appears that Serini and Girard were the real jerks, and while Soon may have been less than perfect, he was a much better person than either Girard or Serini.

Yeah. The entire claim for Soon being such a horrible person is that he's lawful. But as far as I can tell, not actually "lawful stupid", just normal "I'm not going to make a promise and then break it" lawful. We literally have Serini admitting that she forced her entire party to promise not to interact with each other and their gates (and to be fair, maybe had a good reason for that), but then later just expected that everyone would break that promise. And, interestingly enough, every single one of them did just that... except Soon.

So yeah, in the absence of additional information, I'm going to go with the two people we've seen bagging on him not being terribly reliable sources for Soon's actual behavior. In both cases, they seem to be projecting their own methodology (lie to and use others for your own purposes) onto Soon, and just were never once able to grasp the concept that he wasn't actually lying with anything he said or did.

[KorvinStarmast]

When you really look at things, even though we do not have Soon's version of the story, it appears that Serini and Girard were the real jerks, and while Soon may have been less than perfect, he was a much better person than either Girard or Serini.

Yes. Girard being the alpha jerk, and Serini being the little doggie jerk following along...since she had a crush on him.

So yeah, in the absence of additional information, I'm going to go with the two people we've seen bagging on him not being terribly reliable sources for Soon's actual behavior. In both cases, they seem to be projecting their own methodology (lie to and use others for your own purposes) onto Soon, and just were never once able to grasp the concept that he wasn't actually lying with anything he said or did.

As good a take as any I've seen to date.

[dctrue815]

Is it just me, or does anyone else kinda feel sorry for Calder? I mean, I'm not rooting for him, but I'm not rooting against him, either...

[brian 333]

Is it just me, or does anyone else kinda feel sorry for Calder? I mean, I'm not rooting for him, but I'm not rooting against him, either...

Not even a little bit. It's like watching the school bully get a beatdown. I'm hoping he gets a swirly before this is done. Calder may be worthy of sympathy in the abstract, but has shown no effort to earn it.

[Kish]

He's an archetypal cult leader who called Sunny a tool as soon as he met him, so no. If he was likely to be stuck back in stasis then I might have a different answer, but he's only marginally less aggressively unsympathetic than Xykon; his death here will be regretted by no one except himself.

[KorvinStarmast]

Is it just me, or does anyone else kinda feel sorry for Calder? I mean, I'm not rooting for him, but I'm not rooting against him, either...

Hmm, let's see: it is a story built on a dungeon and dragons chassis. The dragon is evil, and as a bonus, had been mind controlling people into joining its cult.
No, nobody is going to miss Calder when he goes anymore than someone will miss an arsonist when they get caught and are sent to prison.

Let me offer you a parallel, since Calder is, so far, well written.
Another well written bad guy was Tarquin. Just because he's well written as a bad guy doesn't make it a sad moment when he gets his comeuppance.
Likewise with Calder.

[arimareiji]

Is it just me, or does anyone else kinda feel sorry for Calder? I mean, I'm not rooting for him, but I'm not rooting against him, either...

I do pity him, but I don't think that's what you mean. (Please correct me if I'm wrong?)

I wish he hadn't suffered needlessly. But he's a free-willed creature whose actions and mentality are the reason why he's out of last chances. They brought him to a place where his death makes the world a safer place for everyone else. His suffering may or may not have been cruel, but that doesn't give him a free pass to keep living if what he chooses to do with that life is harm/kill countless others.

[No good @ names]

Yeah. The entire claim for Soon being such a horrible person is that he's lawful. But as far as I can tell, not actually "lawful stupid", just normal "I'm not going to make a promise and then break it" lawful. We literally have Serini admitting that she forced her entire party to promise not to interact with each other and their gates (and to be fair, maybe had a good reason for that), but then later just expected that everyone would break that promise. And, interestingly enough, every single one of them did just that... except Soon.

So yeah, in the absence of additional information, I'm going to go with the two people we've seen bagging on him not being terribly reliable sources for Soon's actual behavior. In both cases, they seem to be projecting their own methodology (lie to and use others for your own purposes) onto Soon, and just were never once able to grasp the concept that he wasn't actually lying with anything he said or did.

Serini didn’t force anyone to vow to go their own ways. She suggested it. They decided voluntarily to do to it avoid all their work being undone by personality conflicts.

The fact that the others were friendly after being split from Soon, suggests he was A common denominator (not THE common denominator) in the personality conflicts.


Sorry, I think Soon is just as guilty as Girard.

[Provengreil]

Serini didn’t force anyone to vow to go their own ways. She suggested it. They decided voluntarily to do to it avoid all their work being undone by personality conflicts.

The fact that the others were friendly after being split from Soon, suggests he was A common denominator (not THE common denominator) in the personality conflicts.


Sorry, I think Soon is just as guilty as Girard.

I have to disagree. Soon was only the common denominator in that he held the honor that Serini and Dorukan ignored and Girard openly mocked at all turns. Girard even assumed that Soon would rationalize breaking his vow in about 2 months! They never understood Soon and there's no real evidence they even tried to. What kept the party together was Kraagor: while he was a barbarian and therefore incapable of being a lawful alignment, I suspect he's the one that actually got it*, and probably played party peacemaker while not swinging an axe.

As for being friendly with each other after the fact, well, Dorukan and Lirian were an item but the rest didn't exactly keep in touch. They helped put together Serini's dungeon, but she openly told us that she had to trick them into doing so and was stealing monsters from Dorukan. The comic even openly told us she was being an unreliable narrator on that very page. What we hear about the Scribblers working together from Serini is being coated in a layer of self deception.


*while this goes pretty far from anything actually established, Barbarians are usually fluffed as coming from tribal backgrounds. They may have chaos to them but loyalty tends to be a big theme in such backgrounds, so he'd have seen that in Soon.

[Kish]

Serini didn’t force anyone to vow to go their own ways. She suggested it. They decided voluntarily to do to it avoid all their work being undone by personality conflicts.

The fact that the others were friendly after being split from Soon, suggests he was A common denominator (not THE common denominator) in the personality conflicts.


Sorry, I think Soon is just as guilty as Girard.

Serini didn't describe them as being friendly. She described them as being easily manipulated, specifically by being eager to believe that the poor little halfling can't figure out how to defend her Gate herself.

I'm taking everything she says that's in any way subjective with quite a bit of salt (particularly in the area of "she's cynically eager to attribute bad motivations to absolutely everyone"), but I'm certainly not going to go with "when she indicates something negative about Soon it's objective fact, when she indicates something negative about the others it's untrue."

[danielxcutter]

I do pity him, but I don't think that's what you mean. (Please correct me if I'm wrong?)

I wish he hadn't suffered needlessly. But he's a free-willed creature whose actions and mentality are the reason why he's out of last chances. They brought him to a place where his death makes the world a safer place for everyone else. His suffering may or may not have been cruel, but that doesn't give him a free pass to keep living if what he chooses to do with that life is harm/kill countless others.

And also the actual reason for that suffering was essentially pointless. Oh, the XP here is going to help the party fight the IFCC and Team Evil later on, and I imagine there’ll be other narrative reasons for this fight as well. But the stasis trap was supposed to make him fight an intruder, not imprison him motionless and aware for decades, and here the Order of the Stick is in the process of putting him down instead.

I don’t really want him to live. But I do want his death to be quick and painless as possible. There’s no real need for him to suffer more.

Serini didn't describe them as being friendly. She described them as being easily manipulated, specifically by being eager to believe that the poor little halfling can't figure out how to defend her Gate herself.

I'm taking everything she says that's in any way subjective with quite a bit of salt (particularly in the area of "she's cynically eager to attribute bad motivations to absolutely everyone"), but I'm certainly not going to go with "when she indicates something negative about Soon it's objective fact, when she indicates something negative about the others it's untrue."

I think that bit was more than a little self-loathing projection, and I think she’s still biased. I’m not going to pretend that Soon probably wasn’t a very flawed person as well, but I highly doubt he was the only problem. Or even the majority.

[Unoriginal]

On the "was Soon a jerk?" debate, I have to point out that in the Crayons of Time, it is *Soon* who opens the hostilities with Dorukan, in a manner that can only be described as unfair and gratuitous.

According to Shojo, Dorukan and Lirian just spent years and their entire fortunes researching how to build the Gates and then getting them built. After that comes the time to decide how to defend said Gates with the rest of the group, and the Wizard, perhaps obviously but quite sensibly, says that they should use the mightiest magical wards possible to protect them.

Then Soon tells him that as a whole magic is manure because it's not 100% flawless, and that Dorukan can't be trusted as a guardian because he'll get distracted by a different project and focus on that.

Dorukan, who just spent years building very magic Gates on top of Rifts sealed by magic, after spending years adventuring and fighting to secure those Rifts.

Soon went for the throat for no discernible reason, especially since Dorukan spending the next half a century defending his Gate to the best of his abilities doesn't paint him as the unreliable sort.

My guess is that Soon was projecting the anger he had against his wife, who was a Wizard and who was soul-annihilated after getting intrigued by one of the Rifts. With Crayon!Soon even gently telling her she should leave research to her lab as his last words to her. And since feeling angry at his dead wife wasn't something he could process, he lashed out against someone who represented and was advocating for Wizardry.

And it's only after being accused of being an unreliable imcompetent whose lifework is worthless that Dorukan retaliates with accusing Soon of seeing his teammates as expendable so long as he got to avenge his wife in the process.

Also worth noting that the story proves Soon an hypocrite on that topic, as while Soon's Gate was protected by the unbreakable honor of Paladins, it was also protected by magical wards such as the anti-scrying measures in the throne room.

[Provengreil]

On the "was Soon a jerk?" debate, I have to point out that in the Crayons of Time, it is *Soon* who opens the hostilities with Dorukan, in a manner that can only be described as unfair and gratuitous.

According to Shojo, Dorukan and Lirian just spent years and their entire fortunes researching how to build the Gates and then getting them built. After that comes the time to decide how to defend said Gates with the rest of the group, and the Wizard, perhaps obviously but quite sensibly, says that they should use the mightiest magical wards possible to protect them.

Then Soon tells him that as a whole magic is manure because it's not 100% flawless, and that Dorukan can't be trusted as a guardian because he'll get distracted by a different project and focus on that.

Dorukan, who just spent years building very magic Gates on top of Rifts sealed by magic, after spending years adventuring and fighting to secure those Rifts.

Soon went for the throat for no discernible reason, especially since Dorukan spending the next half a century defending his Gate to the best of his abilities doesn't paint him as the unreliable sort.

My guess is that Soon was projecting the anger he had against his wife, who was a Wizard and who was soul-annihilated after getting intrigued by one of the Rifts. With Crayon!Soon even gently telling her she should leave research to her lab as his last words to her. And since feeling angry at his dead wife wasn't something he could process, he lashed out against someone who represented and was advocating for Wizardry.

And it's only after being accused of being an unreliable imcompetent whose lifework is worthless that Dorukan retaliates with accusing Soon of seeing his teammates as expendable so long as he got to avenge his wife in the process.

Also worth noting that the story proves Soon an hypocrite on that topic, as while Soon's Gate was protected by the unbreakable honor of Paladins, it was also protected by magical wards such as the anti-scrying measures in the throne room.

You're leaving out that Girard was right there on that panel, throwing more caustic words out. While it's not entirely rational for Soon to redirect the simmering anger towards Dorukan instead, a lot highly emotional situations just....aren't rational. Soon got triggered and Dorukan was who he happened to be speaking to at the moment, though directing his attacks towards magic rather than a person definitely included both of them.

I blame Girard far more than anyone else for the breakup of the scribble and their inability to work afterwards. In fact, now that I think on it, I'm pretty every single time we've seen him speak he went right for Soon's honor, class choice, and leadership qualities. No matter how stoic Soon was, that kind of crap will get through eventually.

[Kish]

1) I think it's a mistake to treat the crayon words from Shojo as a word-by-word rendition of what was actually said. "Hold on, Dorukan, I'm going to insult you just as soon as I painstakingly write down what I'm going to say..."
2) There is no indication that the inability to scry Soon's Gate--the identical inability to use magical detection methods on all five Gates--is because of magical wards. Especially but not limited to in light of what Redcloak said about the Dark One's inability to give him information about Kraagor's Gate, I'm inclined to read it as a block from the creator gods working in concert.

[hroþila]

I don't think we're supposed to take those two panels as a remotely full record of what was said, or that we're in a position to tell who was right or who was to blame for what

edit: ninja'd

[danielxcutter]

I mean, only one Scribbler left fake coordinates and an explosive trap specifically to bait and kill someone and it sure wasn't Soon.

Honestly if it wasn't for V accidentally killing the Draketooth clan with Familicide, they probably would have scry-and-die'd the Order and the comic probably would have ended a couple strips after that. Look at the list of illusions they were casting; Screen and Shifting Paths are both 8th-level spells, so that means they had at least three sorcerers of 16th level or higher. The others listed are rather lower (mostly 2nd, a couple mid-level ones) but some of them may have been martial classes or multiclass builds. And if even all of them were single-classed sorcerers, the Order still would have been outgunned and outnumbered by a wide margin - and that's in a fair fight, which they almost certainly wouldn't have done.

And if they were indoctrinated by Girard to the point where they refused to be rezzed from a LG cleric who's god wasn't even in the same pantheon Soon worshiped then I'd bet a dozen quatloos that they absolutely would have sent a kill team after the Order.

[Tzardok]

Canonically, the alignment of the caster is pretty much the only thing souls learn when somebody tries to resurect them, so they couldn't know which god the cleric worked for. Though OOTS may have changed that with its "anteroom of the afterlife" and outsider attendants and stuff. Ignore that.

Though, if Girard taught his fantasy atheism/misotheism to his family, I can imagine them hating deities of other pantheons just as much as "the petting zoo".

[Kish]

Canonically, the alignment of the caster is pretty much the only thing souls learn when somebody tries to resurect them, so they couldn't know which god the cleric worked for.

Factually the opposite of true. Scroll down to Bringing Back The Dead.

[brian 333]

What we are told: Soon wouldn't play ball.

What we see: Soon scowling as his subordinates block Serini from getting to him.

He is not happy, gloating, or sticking out his tongue and saying "Told you so!" In fact, he looks angry.

I do not know, but in that one panel I see Soon feeling insulted, (perhaps remembering countless other casual insults?)

A potential interpretation of that panel is backed up by Serini's jabs about taking a level in Paladin. Consider Soon's thoughts in that moment:

"You insult, accuse, and belittle me after agreeing to work with me, then when the party falls to bickering you 'solve' the problem you created by demanding that we separate. I accepted your terms. Now after betting that I would break my word you show up on my doorstep begging me to do so? Why? So you can win your bet?"

I'm not certain that is exactly what he was thinking, but there are a hundred variations on that theme. But the person who mocked his alignment and class choice showing up to ask him to break a vow she demanded he take was definitely the wrong messenger, and an unreliable narrator at the same time.

[danielxcutter]

Also even if that wasn't how it works by default, we did see Durkon being told by a deva that a cleric of Loki was rezzing him. It's not entirely out of question for the Draketooth to have gotten that when Durkon tries to rez him.

Huh. Now that I check that strip, that one has armor. So sorcerers and martials, or at least a sorcerer-based gish. Yeah, they probably would have killed the Order. Been able to, I mean, though I've seen nothing to convince me that they wouldn't.

[Tzardok]

Factually the opposite of true. Scroll down to Bringing Back The Dead.

Oops. Must 've missremembered. Thanks for the correction.

[justhalf]

It’s tied with the epic unveiling of Xykon in the Battle of Azure City.

I may have forgotten this one. Which one are you referring to?

[danielxcutter]

Serini talks much fonder of Dorukan and Lirian than Soon or even Girard, and Girard was friendly enough with her for him to set up the trap to alert her if it was tripped. I definitely wouldn't be surprised if Soon being angry there was more than just her immediately breaking the oath that she herself suggested.

And... well, even before that, we had a panel showing that Dorukan left a hole in Cloister specifically to see Lirian, so the past criticisms that it effectively just served to snub Soon isn't entirely inaccurate.

Spoiler: SoD spoilers

Show

Incidentally, there's a letter from Dorukan to Lirian saying he regrets swearing that oath since they can't be together more in Start of Darkness I hear. Maybe he matured enough to at least pay lip service to it rather than actively flaunt it in his youth. And I suppose half a century could have been long enough for the vitriol to have subsided somewhat.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm taking everything she says that's in any way subjective with quite a bit of salt (particularly in the area of "she's cynically eager to attribute bad motivations to absolutely everyone"), but I'm certainly not going to go with "when she indicates something negative about Soon it's objective fact, when she indicates something negative about the others it's untrue."

Yes, Serini being self serving has been a consistent on-screen pattern of behavior.

I mean, only one Scribbler left fake coordinates and an explosive trap specifically to bait and kill someone and it sure wasn't Soon.

But since dumping on Paladins is so fashionable...

[arimareiji]

But since dumping on Paladins is so fashionable...

I hear page 34 section V.1.d.iii of the Player's Handbook even has rules for how it's to be done.

[Heroic Lich]

Then Soon tells him that as a whole magic is manure because it's not 100% flawless, and that Dorukan can't be trusted as a guardian because he'll get distracted by a different project and focus on that.

Dorukan, who just spent years building very magic Gates on top of Rifts sealed by magic, after spending years adventuring and fighting to secure those Rifts.

Soon went for the throat for no discernible reason, especially since Dorukan spending the next half a century defending his Gate to the best of his abilities doesn't paint him as the unreliable sort.

I mean... Soon was absolutely correct on Dorukan. Out of all the gate guardians, Dorukan was by and far the worst. Even Lirian had a better plan than him. Maybe it was because Serini kept stealing his good monsters but honestly even in his fight he was pretty lackluster. Dorukan's wards didn't really mean anything in the end because he seemed more obsessed with the novelty rather than using them correctly. I mean for crying out loud he protected the gate with the single most exploitable loophole imaginable, the built in a self-destruct button with no protections. Dorukan was a powerful wizard and a valuable scribbler but if I was Soon I certainly would never have given him free rein over more gates than necessary.

Also worth noting that the story proves Soon an hypocrite on that topic, as while Soon's Gate was protected by the unbreakable honor of Paladins, it was also protected by magical wards such as the anti-scrying measures in the throne room.

Personally I think Soon meant that relying exclusively on magical wards was the problem, not using wards. Or maybe he decided to change his mind, clearly Dorukan did since he also beefed up his defenses with monsters, betraying is "ONLY epic wards" statement. Most likely there were deepseated emotions about how that last fight went and everyone flared up.

I mean Girard IMMEDIATELY started telling Soon that he didn't care about Kraagor's death, and the text says that Kraagor's death pushed them over the edge.

The theme of the Scribblers and the Order is that the Scribbler's had all the power but all of their egos got in the way. Serini's ego, Soon's ego and especially Girard's ego. The order is succeeding where they failed because they are willing to set aside their pride and work together, bringing out the best in each other and learning to build past their own mistakes. I mean... both groups lost a dwarf and only the Order kept functioning.

EDIT:
I reread SoD and Dorukan isn't as bad as I paint him out to be. He was pretty dumb but not full on incompetent