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2024-04-11, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
Miron completely failed to cast any level 9 spells on screen, nor are any clearly implied to have been cast off-screen. His caster level is probably 15 or 16.
Class and level geekery found no evidence for higher level. In fact, no member of the Vector legion is confirmed to be higher than level 16.
Malack is confirmed to have been a level 12 cleric. If he's an NPC, then note that a lizardfolk cleric 12 vampire is only CR 14 (2 racial HD gives CR 1; first 2 levels of cleric are disassociated, and give elite abilities and cleric 2 for only +1 CR to CR 2; next 10 levels of cleric are associated and raise the CR to 12; vampire brings it up to 14).
So, the one case where we know the level, it gives the Vector Legion CR 14. I'm not seeing epic foes here, and foes use CR not ECL.
If Miron has level 9 spells, I'd expect to have seen them. Level 9s are a really big deal.
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2024-04-11, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
Dispel Magic and its Greater version have two cast modes: single-target and area of effect.
For the single-target option, we have this problem, as per the Magic Overview section of the PHB:
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target.
A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. [...]
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).
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2024-04-11, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
Line of effect. Caldur's scales, muscles, organs, and possibly bones would get in the way of the shot.
Actually now that I've said that, don't most Polymorph effects say they end when the creature dies?? Caldur could have been about to do that to himself."Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2024-04-11, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
I'd like to think that the last thing that went through Calder's head, other than the allosaur, was to wonder how Serini's pals ever managed to get the best of him.
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2024-04-11, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-04-11, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-04-11, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
It is protected against scrying, but not divinations. Serini was specifically careful about the possibility of divination magic revealing ways to enter the final dungeon. Why would someone as paranoid as Serini create a dungeon that could be defeated with a 4th level spell and a pickaxe? Redcloak could've simply casted divination, gotten something along the lines of
Find yourself on the ground floor
Look for door number four
Keep your hand on right-side wall
Till you reach a small landfall
Strike the wall with all your might
There you'll find your delight
and entered the final dungeon without wasting any time. I'm pretty sure the gate is reasonably isolated from the surface. And for all we know, it might be miles away from the actual monster hollow. Sure, team Evil might still bypass all the traps somehow, but I doubt it would be through Calder busting through the walls. Also I kinda doubt that all the buildup about how deadly and merciless this dungeon level is will be spent on "look at how much defenses we'd lost because of Calder"
I mean, if his jaw is really dislocated, he probably can't cast spells with verbal components, can't use his bite attack and possibly even his fire breath attacks will get wonky. Sure, he still has a ton of hp and his claw/tail/wing attacks, but those aren't nearly as deadly. (And he obviously took damage here — a stab from Belkar and two arrows from Haley.)
Maybe when Calder first surrendered they swore an oath they wouldn't harm him, and she's for some reason beholden to that? I mean, it's unlikely Soon would cast Mark of Justice on her, but her lack of participation is glaring.
I mean, the Quinton estimated the time needed to search through the whole monster hollow to be around 2 days, so unless team Evil really drops on them through a hole, they still have time to fully recuperate spells and hp. And as far as narrative surprises go — there's still MitD.
Polar ray is strong, but there's ways to buff hp. Bear's endurance is like +30 hp for them now. There's also temporary hp. As for the breath, I don't believe Calder is a Great Wyrm, and they had resist fire on, that prevents 30 damage. If they've made their save, the damage would be very low.
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2024-04-11, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
I want to say two things:
One, there should be a spell that explicitly (and only) makes anything in one's mouth turn into a dinosaur.
Two, I bet the dragon's jaw is dino-sore!
That is all.
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2024-04-11, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-04-11, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
"Thursdays. I could never get the hang of Thursdays."-Arthur Dent, The Hitchhiker's Guide
"I had a normal day once. It was a Thursday." -Will Bailey, The West Wing
Roy will be Xykon's Final Boss
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2024-04-11, 07:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
I kind of feel like this should have broken Calder's jaw, but I would understand if this aspect of realism isn't followed (even though I honestly would like it to be). Though I suppose that it is also possible that my understanding of the physics involved is incorrect in this instance.
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2024-04-11, 08:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
Or, unlike Laurin he does not break out the big guns early, and he had something in reserve when the Contingency triggered. (but I think you are right, in terms of Class and Level Geekery as a context).
If Miron has level 9 spells, I'd expect to have seen them. Level 9s are a really big deal.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2024-04-11 at 08:25 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2024-04-11, 08:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
Hate me if you want. But that's your issue to fix, not mine.
Primal ego vos, estis ex nihilo.
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2024-04-11, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-04-11, 08:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2024-04-11, 10:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
That has to hurt, although obviously Calder is not down or dead yet. I have to wonder how much more damage he can soak up, but I guess I end up wondering that about basically any boss.
Count me as not thinking this is going to do anything to wreck the dungeon's structure, because given the damage that existed in the room before this fight began, if Calder could have broken out by now, he would have. Or maybe it'll create some little minute crack that someone could use to ghostform or teleport through or something.
It worries me what is about or in Serini's staff that the narrative required it to be left behind downstairs when Serini took off after Sunny in a panic. There's no way that won't be important later.
Vaarsuvius looks nearly down as befits a squishy wizard without room to get to a safe distance and cast from there, but they've probably been downing potions offscreen in the brief spans between dragon attacks and presumably have other helpful/protective buffs applied.
I'm not sure what if anything specified that Miron is a sorcerer rather than a wizard. Narratively, actually, I'd be more inclined to believe he's a wizard, for team variety in the Vector Legion, since Laurin is a psion, which is very sorcerer-esque in nature. (Otherwise they have Tarquin as a fighter, Jacinda as presumably a rogue, and one other guy we basically know nothing about, except he's very likely not a cleric, since that was Malack's job.)Last edited by TheNecrocomicon; 2024-04-11 at 10:16 PM.
I prepared Explosive Runes before writing this signature.
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2024-04-11, 10:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2024-04-11, 10:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
This dragon learned from the other dragon story arc.
Unfortunately for him....
...so did V.
Imma Muthafuggen T-Rex encore?Thank you, Devil's Advocate for sending me this link so I can finally erase my old signature!
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2024-04-11, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
"Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2024-04-11, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
Polymorph (the 4th level spell) has a duration at least?
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2024-04-12, 01:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
There are spells that can shrink a creature. If nobody from the Order can cast it (pretty sure it's not on the Cleric list at all and I don't necessarily see V having a reason to pick it up in the past), Serini's bound to have a wand or scroll for it lying around somewhere.
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2024-04-12, 02:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
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2024-04-12, 02:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
I would have guessed that the potion healed part of the damage, but V still has every scratch mark (to his clothes AND to his face) we saw in previous strips, with all-new burn marks from the firebreath.
Dunno. It can be explained several ways (magical protection, good CON score, temp HP, buff spell...). The important thing is that V still has some HP left, although probably not a lot : V looks really roughed up in that last strip.
Even without the line-of-sight stuff, V's not the kind of elf that would purposedly let someone get killed just because it's the most efficient way to deal with an enemy. Or, more accurately, they're not that elf anymore. Old V saw NPCs as ressources, inconveniences and worthless distractions, but current V has grown past that point.
I think that dispel wasn't aimed at hurting Calder, but at rescuing a party member from certain death, even if said party member is "only" Belkar's pet. That fits with V's character growth, especially with he way they now see blackwing as a full partner rather than as a convenient class feature.Last edited by Kardwill; 2024-04-12 at 03:00 AM.
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2024-04-12, 03:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
The fact that team evil reaches the gate is not just good storytelling it's practically mandatory at this point.
The story isn't likely to be close to the end. Many plot threads are still left and heck we're only about 110 strips into this book when the last one was almost 250.
So the odds of just having 100+ more strips of the party just walking in this dungeon is 0.
There are also many outside characters that need to make a return in one way or another and they can't just show up at this dungeon.
So Roy's plan of just making it to the gate and set up camp there isn't going to happen either.
The dungeon crawling part of this story will end and very shortly - shortly in terms of page numbers. Not real life of course.
You answered your own question. If a fight goes off now the likelihood is that team evil wins and that's obviously not how the story goes. So the good guys are going to make a run for it and avoid a direct confrontation to the death. Just like the dwarves did earlier this morning.
Based on what Redcloak said earlier, he expects them to get to the gate by the end of the week but have the Snarl by the end of the year. That means that team evil will have to sit on the gate for some time and that is even assuming there isn't something else that stops them. For example, maybe some of the walls will collapse on the gate and they'll have to dig it out and they can't do it magically for some reason?
Just tossing ideas.
The point is that any good story will put the bad guys with the advantage to make it that much more dramatic when the good guys defeat them. So team evil need to be the ones with the upper hand so they will have the advantage of guarding the flag for a while.
That is the time where all the other plots come into place.
I mean heck, forget about all the other plots - what about the actual main plot? We know the story has to end with Redcloak joining the good guys in sealing the gates. How would that work if this dungeon crawling isn't stopped?
Good guys make it to the gate, make camp, Xykon shows up 2 days later attacks them and Redcloak just decides to change his mind mid-fight? Will they defeat team evil and then hold Redcloak as prisoner until he cooperates?
Not going to happen. They have to put a pause on the whole thing and other events will happen to get Redcloak to start thinking on things.
I'll even repeat my earlier prediction on exactly what that is
Spoiler: prediction
Hel has to go all or nothing at this point as she has nothing to lose. She will send a vampire to the north pole that will join team evil in an attempt to get them to rush to execute their plans - which based on what Loki said would mean the gods still have a chance in 10 minutes to destroy the world thus sealing her win.
Said vampire will get team evil to argue and Xykon's preference to undead and likely finding out that Redcloak lied to him about the ritual will cause them to split up and Redcloak leaves team evil to realize that Xykon getting the gate by himself will be the death of all goblins and would finally realize he is better off compromising for the safety of his people.
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2024-04-12, 04:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
We don't know that. It's the proposed optimal plan, but we know it's incomplete (Thor doesn't know about the planet), and it has a fair chance of being more complicated (since plans never go as expected, especially when the audience already knows the plan ^^). My bet is that the "final fight" will just be the setup for the actual finale about (or even "on") the riftworld.
Last edited by Kardwill; 2024-04-12 at 04:18 AM.
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2024-04-12, 04:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
Vaarsuvius doesn't know any spell or other method to seal the rifts.
If they did the Order could just have gone to where the Dungeon of Dorukan and Lirian's Gate used to stand and closed the rifts there, which would have greatly diminished the danger the world is in.
Honestly, given who Redcloak is and has repeatedly demonstrated to be, I'd say Xykon joining the good guys in sealing the Gates would be more likely to happen.
Not that I think either would happen, just that Xykon would be more willing to do it because he knows he earns nothing if the world is destroyed. Meanwhile Redcloak has directly stated that even if the world destruction isn't an empty threat, he would let the world be destroyed rather than not winning (by his own, wounded-ego-motivated definition of winning). And that he'd justify it to himself with "if it happens, next world's goblins will have a better deal".Last edited by Unoriginal; 2024-04-12 at 05:01 AM.
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2024-04-12, 04:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
How many characters are you thinking of? I think for a large majority of the characters who aren't present at the Gate now, their story is essentially over. Hinjo is the one notable exception, and I don't see why he couldn't show up at the dungeon. (EDIT: The IFCC, and Sabine, are still relevant, but the IFCC doesn't have to directly show up to make an impact, and Sabine herself certainly could.) For the rest, there's cutaways, or the denouement, depending on how important they are or why they need to show up.
The ritual itself takes several weeks to complete. I don't think Team Evil is going to get to the gate before the good guys do. So I think any scenario where something happens to stop them during the ritual necessarily would involve the Order's defeat, which isn't going to happen.
Also, I think your prediction contradicts this statement:
SpoilerWith so many existent plot threads to be resolved and characters still relevant to the story-- let alone however many you think need to make a return appearance-- I don't really think we're going to see a new faction appear out of virtually nowhere.
Obviously, Hel isn't literally "out of nowhere," but a new vampire character would be. And I think Hel's role in the story was to be a main antagonist of the last book, and that has been fulfilled. Whatever needs to be resolved with her-- like, say, how she'll survive if this world is saved-- doesn't require her to be an active factor in the main plot.
SpoilerI also don't really follow how your proposed scenario would happen based on what we know. I don't think a Xykon and Redcloak split would be in any way peaceful enough that Redcloak could just walk away and reconsider. Also, Xykon doesn't have a way to control or manipulate the Gate without Redcloak.
I also think that it's much less satisfying for "random third-party character shows up and that ends up changing Redcloak's mind" rather than the Order changing Redcloak's mind. But that's my opinion, whereas the previous paragraph seems pretty well informed by the facts of the story.Last edited by Ruck; 2024-04-12 at 05:06 AM.
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2024-04-12, 05:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
First of all, just nitpicking/clarifying; the Giant said this last bit is going to be a single book "even if it looks like a telephone book" so page number isn't going to help a lot. Not that it really affects this specifically either way, I just wanted to say that.
Also, the primary dangling plot hook besides Team Evil are the IFCC and really, I don't doubt they'd be able to force their way somehow. Archfiends are right below actual deities and they've been preparing an artifact.
You answered your own question. If a fight goes off now the likelihood isCool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2024-04-12, 05:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
We very much do not know that. We know that all the characters think this is the only way to win, but I find it very easy to imagine that whatever revelations about the Snarl that come will open another path to victory after Thor's plan conclusively fails. I can think of a lot of stories, especially RPGs, with this exact setup where the climax comes about after the heroes fail to stop the apocalyptic threat from being unleashed, and while I don't think this has to end like that it still easily could.
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2024-04-12, 06:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread
Well, much like Calder never fired off his breath weapon while being strangled by his throat in an allosaurus's jaws, it looks like Blooodfeast's rump materialized *down Calder's throat* which also might prevent it from firing (also, hence the choking sound Calder makes).
I am a total rules ignoramus in D&D, but I doubt 3.5E D&D speaks to this one way or the other, unless maybe bird-brained Elan points this out in a callback to all the Dungeon Crawling Fools "silly nonsensical rules" jokes, and suddenly Calder can breathe fire again. But those seem less appropriate near the climax.Last edited by drazen; 2024-04-12 at 07:07 AM. Reason: Tail wasn't in Calder's throat after all. Although I still think it should have been! :P
SpoilerI Am A: Chaotic Neutral Human Sorcerer (5th Level)
Ability Scores:
Strength - 11
Dexterity - 16
Constitution - 11
Intelligence - 15
Wisdom - 12
Charisma - 11