OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

Dragons do require something like 1d4+1 rounds between breath weapon uses, so it might not be ready yet, even if he can still use it with a dinosaur butt blocking his mouth and a dislocated jaw.

[Kardwill]

Well, much like Calder never fired off his breath weapon while being strangled by his throat in an allosaurus's jaws, it looks like Blooodfeast's rump materialized *down Calder's throat* which also might prevent it from firing (also, hence the choking sound Calder makes).

I am a total rules ignoramus in D&D, but I doubt 3.5E D&D speaks to this one way or the other, unless maybe bird-brained Elan points this out in a callback to all the Dungeon Crawling Fools "silly nonsensical rules" jokes, and suddenly Calder can breathe fire again. But those seem less appropriate near the climax.

If we want to go "by the rules", then Calder has to "reload" his firepreath for a few rounds (1 firebreath every 3 rounds in D&D3, IIRC).

But "somebody just polymorphed a giant dino inside your mouth" is squarely in the domain of "DM rulings and rule-of-cool", not hard written rules, anyway ^^

[The MunchKING]

Well, much like Calder never fired off his breath weapon while being strangled by his throat in an allosaurus's jaws, it looks like Blooodfeast's rump materialized *down Calder's throat* which also might prevent it from firing (also, hence the choking sound Calder makes).

Well he's got to wait 1d4 rounds to fire again anyway, by which time Bloodfeast will presumably climb out of Caldur's mouth and start attacking again.

[DavidSh]

... and a dislocated jaw.

Although reptiles have more complicated jaw and skull articulations than mammals do, with variations between crocodiles, lizards, snakes, and tuataras. Who knows how dragons are arranged?

[Tzardok]

Although reptiles have more complicated jaw and skull articulations than mammals do, with variations between crocodiles, lizards, snakes, and tuataras. Who knows how dragons are arranged?

The Draconomicon does.

[Dellmarcus]

HOLY {scrubbed}!!! That's awesome! I know that we're nearing the end, so super cool stuff is to be expected, but that's SOOOO cool! I was worried about Belkar's buddy, but that's a *perfect* way to deal with a dragon! I love it! :)

[subtledoctor]

It's Belvaar. Don't ask me how I know that.

So you’re saying Belkar comes first? Yeah, that makes sense.

[danielxcutter]

Although reptiles have more complicated jaw and skull articulations than mammals do, with variations between crocodiles, lizards, snakes, and tuataras. Who knows how dragons are arranged?

Probably in a way that doesn't prevent severe injuries from a lizard turning into a dinosaur mid-chew.

[bunsen_h]

My friend, as someone who's favorite class is sorcerer, let me assure you: if you only have one slot, you figure out how to make it fit any situation.

Bugsby's Versatile Hammer?

[Frogwarrior]

calling it now: bloodfeast will turn out to be MitD's parent (some deity did it with an allosaurus)

also calling it: belkar's experience with transformed bloodfeast will give him enough experience with reptilian reproductive anatomy to remember and deduce V's gender

his untimely death will happen right before he blurts it out, mid-sentence

[arimareiji]

Bugsby's Versatile Hammer?

It's a shame this spell wasn't invented before Nale bit it.

Edit: Although maybe it's in the spell description? It casts an illusion over the target making it look like him.

[skim172]

Dispel Magic and its Greater version have two cast modes: single-target and area of effect.

For the single-target option, we have this problem, as per the Magic Overview section of the PHB:



And as for the AoE option, we have this one:



TL;DR: Once swallowed, it is no longer a valid target for dispelling (unless you cut an opening into the digestive tract).

Rats.

Okay, let's try another tack. Time-delayed activation. Is there a Polymorph spell that isn't permanent? Something that can be dialed in for a day or longer? Then we just need to make sure the roast chicken-dinosaur is consumed and that the target isn't on a diet.

Alternatively - how does "line of sight" feel about magical vision? If I scry on the individual chunks of meat swirling around in my hated enemy's GI tract - does that count?

C'mon guys. If we perfect the gastrosaurian bomb, we can sell this invention to the Stickverse CIA for millions.

[Ruck]

also calling it: belkar's experience with transformed bloodfeast will give him enough experience with reptilian reproductive anatomy to remember and deduce V's gender

his untimely death will happen right before he blurts it out, mid-sentence

I'll bet against that.

[brian 333]

Rats.

Okay, let's try another tack. Time-delayed activation. Is there a Polymorph spell that isn't permanent? Something that can be dialed in for a day or longer? Then we just need to make sure the roast chicken-dinosaur is consumed and that the target isn't on a diet.

Alternatively - how does "line of sight" feel about magical vision? If I scry on the individual chunks of meat swirling around in my hated enemy's GI tract - does that count?

C'mon guys. If we perfect the gastrosaurian bomb, we can sell this invention to the Stickverse CIA for millions.

Darth V did it the only right way. Magical vision would not help because seeing or not seeing the target is not the issue. Being able to trace an uninterrupted line of effect between the source and the target, with a minimum 1 square foot opening is required. Even a sheet of glass blocks rays, emanations, and lines of effect for spellcasting.

[skim172]

also calling it: belkar's experience with transformed bloodfeast will give him enough experience with reptilian reproductive anatomy to remember and deduce V's gender

his untimely death will happen right before he blurts it out, mid-sentence

I dunno about that - that'd be akin to an alien observing a woodchuck's hindquarters and thus becoming an expert in human sexual organs.

Just cuz they're all reptiles doesn't mean their genitalia all the same, man. You need to get past your reductionist mammalocentric biases.

[Ruck]

I dunno about that - that'd be akin to an alien observing a woodchuck's hindquarters and thus becoming an expert in human sexual organs.

Just cuz they're all reptiles doesn't mean their genitalia all the same, man. You need to get past your reductionist mammalocentric biases.

I also think the comic has long moved past the point where Rich would use V's gender as a source of cheap jokes.

[Shadowknight12]

Rats.

Okay, let's try another tack. Time-delayed activation. Is there a Polymorph spell that isn't permanent? Something that can be dialed in for a day or longer? Then we just need to make sure the roast chicken-dinosaur is consumed and that the target isn't on a diet.

C'mon guys. If we perfect the gastrosaurian bomb, we can sell this invention to the Stickverse CIA for millions.

The main issue is that you would need something that is likely to be swallowed whole. Objects in D&D can be destroyed (and therefore no longer be valid targets), and it would be highly difficult to argue that the process of trituration and digestion do not destroy the food that is ingested.

Assuming you trick someone into swallowing something whole (such as a pill or a seed) you would need to make it immune to acid, because as per the spell Polymorph Any Object (which is what you'd be using here):

Damage taken by the new form can result in the injury or death of the polymorphed creature. In general, damage occurs when the new form is changed through physical force.

But even if you do that, the rules don't really say anywhere what happens if a timed polymorph spell ends and you're inside a place that cannot hold you. If we go by similar Transmutation spells such as Enlarge Person, you have to make a Strength check to break through your constraints or you simply stop growing.

However, assuming it does work the way you want it to work, you will be pleased to know that a very similar event occurs in the Pathfinder game "Kingmaker".

Spoiler

Show

Monsters burst out of your citizens, killing the victim and rampaging the area (though in the game's case the process is slightly different: instead of a monster being polymorphed into a seed, the seed contains a portal that opens inside the victim and through which the monster emerges from another plane).

Alternatively - how does "line of sight" feel about magical vision? If I scry on the individual chunks of meat swirling around in my hated enemy's GI tract - does that count?

Unfortunately the rules very specifically call it a Line of Effect and not a line of sight precisely because magical divination renders vision into an area trivial. Solid objects (such as glass) block Line of Effect regardless of whether you can see through them or not (though a hole at least 1 square foot big allows you to cast through a solid barrier).

[gbaji]

The fact that team evil reaches the gate is not just good storytelling it's practically mandatory at this point.

The story isn't likely to be close to the end. Many plot threads are still left and heck we're only about 110 strips into this book when the last one was almost 250.

So the odds of just having 100+ more strips of the party just walking in this dungeon is 0.

Agree with these. But none are particularly relevant to whether or not TE will find some faster route to the gate room (which is what we're actually talking about).

There are also many outside characters that need to make a return in one way or another and they can't just show up at this dungeon.

Sure. As someone mentioned above, there are other characters to be resolved, but those will almost certianly be deneoument (ie: after the resolution of whatever happens here in the Final Dungeon). The only characters other than TE and the Order who arguably will need to be involved in the fight in the Final Dungeon is the IFCC, and they have means to do that (they're archfieds and have epic level magic available, plus some unknown artifact, and literally have a "man on the inside" in the form of V).

So Roy's plan of just making it to the gate and set up camp there isn't going to happen either.

Why not? None of the remaining storytelling requirements involving the final gate preclude the Order arriving first, then TE arriving, and then a fight breaking out. That's not to say that we could not have some other more roundabout process occur, but Occam's razor says that this is by far the most likely way for things to happen.

The dungeon crawling part of this story will end and very shortly - shortly in terms of page numbers. Not real life of course.

Sure. But wrapping up this fight, then having another strip or three of the Order continuing on to the gateroom doesn't take up too much strip space. Then fast fowarding a couple days, having TE find the portal, then spend a few strips on them dealing with the traps also doesn't take up much strip space.

And this gets us, fairily directly, into "final battle between TE and the Order", and also allows for "TE is weakened by the traps, which makes this more of an even fight".

You answered your own question. If a fight goes off now the likelihood is that team evil wins and that's obviously not how the story goes. So the good guys are going to make a run for it and avoid a direct confrontation to the death. Just like the dwarves did earlier this morning.

If the fight goes off "now", meaning the way you are proposing: (ie: Calder runs and somehow breaks an entrance into the Final Dungeon, allowing TE to get dfirectly inside and bypass the traps, and attack the Order while the Order is weakened from their fight with Calder and TE is still at mostly full strength), then yeah, that happens, and it's a problem.

We solve that problem by *not* having your proposal happen in the first place. If Calder does *not* create some kind of short cut for TE, then TE must fight their way through the traps, and this gives the Order time to fully recover (a full rest or two, with plenty of time for rezes if needed), and TE to arrive somewhat weakened. It's just strange to me that you propose something that creates the very problem you then argue has to be resolved by somehow preventing the Order from getting to the gateroom in the first place (when they are already close, and TE is arguably 2-3 days away).

All we have to do it not mess up the status quo and the story works just fine. I fully expect there will be more to it than just that, but I do think the general order of "Order arrives at the gate and sets up defenses" followed by "TE arrives a couple days later" will happen.

Based on what Redcloak said earlier, he expects them to get to the gate by the end of the week but have the Snarl by the end of the year. That means that team evil will have to sit on the gate for some time and that is even assuming there isn't something else that stops them. For example, maybe some of the walls will collapse on the gate and they'll have to dig it out and they can't do it magically for some reason?

And this gets us to the final confrontation between TE and the Order faster how? You seem to want to reject the whole "TE must travel through the dungeon" bit because it would take up too many strips to show, but now want to inject this strange extra sequence where TE gets the upper hand, the Order flees somewhere (spending more strips), then TE has to deal with some other problem berfore starting their ritual (which consumes more strips), and then the Order comes back and attacks later?

How is that at all better? That takes up more strips/time, and serves no purpose, since at the end, we're still right where we'd have been if we'd simply not done any of that in the first place.

The point is that any good story will put the bad guys with the advantage to make it that much more dramatic when the good guys defeat them. So team evil need to be the ones with the upper hand so they will have the advantage of guarding the flag for a while.

The bad guys do have an advantage. They have an epic level lich, and a near epic level cleric, as well as a super powerful MitD, plus Oona, plus Greyview. In a straight up fight, TE would likeliy wipe the floor with the Order. This is the whole reason why Serini tried to stop the Order. She assumes they can't beat Xykon alone, let alone Xykon plus friends. TE already has an advantage. What will give the good guys a chance is the very things you seem to want to elminate (I'll note you didn't actually explain how the Order is supposed to actually win against TE, if TE starts out in the gate room, with time to set up defenses, and at full strength).

It will be a "good story", because the Order will use planning and positioning (and the traps in the dungeon) to give them the advantage they need to defeat TE, but then things will swing differently when the real antagnoists show up and upset the apple cart (the IFCC). IMO, TE will be defeated, but largely because Xykon needs to be for Roy to fulfill the bloodoath (and Xykon is just plain evil), and Redcloak needs to be used for the 4th quiddity. But they will not be the final opponent that needs to be defeated. IMO, the IFCC, and whatever they have planned willl become the real threat that will have to be dealt with.

That is the time where all the other plots come into place.

Right. But the only "other plots" that are out there and which involve the gate(s) is the IFCC. So... Giving TE the advantage and then adding the IFCC into the mix seems like a hard sequence to deal with (not a lot of "back and forth there", and a lot mroe of "we lose, then we lose some more"). As I said above, it works far better if the Order has the advantage, seems to be winning against TE, and *then* the IFCC shows up.

I mean heck, forget about all the other plots - what about the actual main plot? We know the story has to end with Redcloak joining the good guys in sealing the gates. How would that work if this dungeon crawling isn't stopped?
Good guys make it to the gate, make camp, Xykon shows up 2 days later attacks them and Redcloak just decides to change his mind mid-fight? Will they defeat team evil and then hold Redcloak as prisoner until he cooperates?

The whole "Recloak and Xykon are both planning to betray eachother" side plot has been foreshadowed since the fall of Azure City. So yeah. I fully expect that will be the exact sequence of events (or close enough). At some point in the battle, something will be revealed with shows that Redcloaks plan does not include Xykon, Xykon will try to kill Redcloak (using the MitD perhaps), Redcloak will turn on Xykon (almost certainly involving his fake phylactery). Hillarity will ensue. Xykon will be killed, Redcloak will realize that "the plan" isn't going to work, and consider working with the Order as Durkon proposed, and then <IFCC shows up>.

Exact order of this sequence may vary, but some variation of that will likely happen.

The point is that whatever happens, it will happen in the Final Dungeon, and at the Final Gate. Well, the Order is in the Final Dungeon and heading towards the Final Gate. TE is heading towards the Final Dungeon, so they can get to the Final Gate. I'm not sure how blowing holes in the dungeon changes this, or ssomehow makes this work better, or whatever. The sequence as it's going right now pretty much sets up exactly the circumstances the story needs to get to a resolution. Sure. We could speculate additional twists and turns, but I'm not seeing the value at this point in having too many extra steps between now and "both teams are in the gateroom fighting each other".

Not going to happen. They have to put a pause on the whole thing and other events will happen to get Redcloak to start thinking on things.

Other than taking more time, what "other events" do you think would happen to make this more likely? To me, all of the elements needed for Xykon and Redcloak to turn on each other are already present and in play. Injecting some additional gyrations on the way to the final battle at the final gate isn't going to buy the story anything in that regard.

I'll even repeat my earlier prediction on exactly what that is

Spoiler: prediction

Show

Hel has to go all or nothing at this point as she has nothing to lose. She will send a vampire to the north pole that will join team evil in an attempt to get them to rush to execute their plans - which based on what Loki said would mean the gods still have a chance in 10 minutes to destroy the world thus sealing her win.

Said vampire will get team evil to argue and Xykon's preference to undead and likely finding out that Redcloak lied to him about the ritual will cause them to split up and Redcloak leaves team evil to realize that Xykon getting the gate by himself will be the death of all goblins and would finally realize he is better off compromising for the safety of his people.

I'm not sure how adding yet another completely new element into the story at this late stage is needed, let alone "better". Hel's part in this story is done.

Okay, let's try another tack. Time-delayed activation. Is there a Polymorph spell that isn't permanent? Something that can be dialed in for a day or longer? Then we just need to make sure the roast chicken-dinosaur is consumed and that the target isn't on a diet.

Yes. It's called "polymorph" the standard spell lasts one minute per level. May not be long enough to cook up a meal, but certainly enough time by default for large creature, polymorphed into something small, to be eaten (certainly by some monster that may be ok with eating things alive and/or raw).

How the result is ruled by the GM is... well... up to the GM. I would probably rule that parts of a body, when removed from the whole, lose any special magical associations (like returning when polymorph ends maybe?). The spell acts on a whole creature, so presumably would only restore the whole (or the major remaining/living part) of the creature to normal when the spell ends. So if the entire creature is killed, chewed up, and swallowed? Nothing left of the polymorphed form to return to the original.

Honestly? There are a host of really strange and absurdly powerful (and silly) things you can do with inventive use of the various shape changing and transmuting spells in the game. It's more or less a rabbit hole of unlimited depth if you really want to go there.

[drazen]

IMO, TE will be defeated, but largely because Xykon needs to be for Roy to fulfill the bloodoath (and Xykon is just plain evil), and Redcloak needs to be used for the 4th quiddity. But they will not be the final opponent that needs to be defeated. IMO, the IFCC, and whatever they have planned willl become the real threat that will have to be dealt with.

One of the other things I have maintained -- even since long before Serini asking Roy if he'd help Xykon if it's "the best deal for the most people" -- is that the ultimate "defeat" of Xykon will not be simply destroying him and his phylactery in a final climactic battle and sending his soul to the Lower Planes in the traditional sense. No, Hel is wasting away in this world due to lack of souls, and why would Xykon want to be a mere mortal ruler of the world when he could be ascended to literal (in his mind, all-powerful) godhood and replace the God(dess) of Death and Disease?

It has the perfect double dramatic ending for TWO characters: Eugene ultimately can't get into the Afterlife because there has been no horrible vengeance upon Xykon, nor has he been defeated or destroyed. However, Xykon will find it to be a monkey's paw ending: sure, he ascended into insane godly power -- but the rules of the gods will limit him in a way that he absolutely hates , but won't actually be able to do anything about while outnumbered.

As a bonus, Eugene and Roy will never agree about the superiority of magic, because Roy didn't really "kill" Xykon, and he was using a magic sword the whole time anyway.

I'll even make up a new ridiculous, silly prediction right now: when the Vector Legion is defeated off-panel, Shoulder Pad Guy shacks up with Jiminy and starts working at the polearm shop. He even helps him get some real polearms.

[konradknox]

So, if V could have undone the polymorph at any time, why wait until now?

Just to troll him! He coulda done it all this time! :D Brilliant.
Didn't want Belkar to have an upper hand in the order hierarchy.

[arimareiji]

I dunno about that - that'd be akin to an alien observing a woodchuck's hindquarters and thus becoming an expert in human sexual organs.

Just cuz they're all reptiles doesn't mean their genitalia all the same, man. You need to get past your reductionist mammalocentric biases.

Thank you for the involuntary bark of laughter. XD

[OvisCaedo]

Calder was brought down to the ground, and is getting back up, but doesn't really look like he's taken flight again... but Roy seems to still be throwing his sword instead of full attacking in melee. Except Roy WAS melee attacking last comic, so maybe Calder HAS actually gone back into the air already and it's just hard to tell.

I was mostly thinking about this because, as much as class tiers got clowned on in 3.5, a high level two-handed fightervever *actually* being allowed to full attack in melee has pretty high damage output, if built competently (even just vanilla competently, not cheesy or obscure feats). He should be able to really put the hurt on Calder if he can just go to town for a round or two.

[danielxcutter]

It probably helps that Roy's almost certainly focused his build around the Weapon Focus feat tree. Each swing probably does almost 30 damage without Power Attack.

[Oleander]

If a fight goes off now the likelihood is that team evil wins and that's obviously not how the story goes.

While I agree the story isn't likely to be a TPK, I don't think it's obvious that TE can't win. Given the presence of the Law Bot, the most likely outcome of a direct encounter now is that OOTS is force trapped, not killed.

We're still have a number of back-and-forths in store, I think.

[Jay R]

It has the perfect double dramatic ending for TWO characters: Eugene ultimately can't get into the Afterlife because there has been no horrible vengeance upon Xykon, nor has he been defeated or destroyed. However, Xykon will find it to be a monkey's paw ending: sure, he ascended into insane godly power -- but the rules of the gods will limit him in a way that he absolutely hates , but won't actually be able to do anything about while outnumbered.

And in lieu of paradise, Roy just gets a picture of the exact look on Eugene's face when he finds out he still doesn't get in.

Maybe a 50-foot marble statue...

[bunsen_h]

But even if you do that, the rules don't really say anywhere what happens if a timed polymorph spell ends and you're inside a place that cannot hold you. If we go by similar Transmutation spells such as Enlarge Person, you have to make a Strength check to break through your constraints or you simply stop growing.

There are similar complications with the Shrink Item spell. The description doesn't specify what happens if the item is contained when the spell wears off.

While I agree the story isn't likely to be a TPK, I don't think it's obvious that TE can't win. Given the presence of the Law Bot, the most likely outcome of a direct encounter now is that OOTS is force trapped, not killed.

The Quinton's contractual obligation is "restraining all hostile creatures we encounter", apart from potential complications involving whether this final area is "behind the doors in this canyon". Do the Order count as "creatures"? I'm fairly sure that TE can't win except in some limited sense. I don't think that Xykon will survive, unless perhaps he's left trapped and frustrated forever in some truly inescapable container. I think that Redcloak will achieve considerable improvement in the status of goblinoids, though not by any route remotely similar to The Plan.

[Oleander]

Do the Order count as "creatures"?

We are all in the Monster Manual somewhere, are we not?

I'm fairly sure that TE can't win except in some limited sense.

I just meant in the scope of a single encounter, not the end-game.

[Jay R]

Do the Order count as "creatures"?

From the 3.5e Players Handbook, Glossary, page 306:

Creature: a living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms "creature" and "character" are sometimes used interchangeably.

[Provengreil]

Well, much like Calder never fired off his breath weapon while being strangled by his throat in an allosaurus's jaws, it looks like Blooodfeast's rump materialized *down Calder's throat* which also might prevent it from firing (also, hence the choking sound Calder makes).

I am a total rules ignoramus in D&D, but I doubt 3.5E D&D speaks to this one way or the other, unless maybe bird-brained Elan points this out in a callback to all the Dungeon Crawling Fools "silly nonsensical rules" jokes, and suddenly Calder can breathe fire again. But those seem less appropriate near the climax.

Currently the only thing stopping him is time, he just used a breath again. Be a couple rounds before it's ready again.

By then, Bloodfeast won't still be in Calder's mouth. The breath might well be blocked for some other reason by then, but it won't be because of a mouth full of dinosaur rump.

...You ever type/say a sentence and just admire it's rarity for a moment?

Calder was brought down to the ground, and is getting back up, but doesn't really look like he's taken flight again... but Roy seems to still be throwing his sword instead of full attacking in melee. Except Roy WAS melee attacking last comic, so maybe Calder HAS actually gone back into the air already and it's just hard to tell.

I was mostly thinking about this because, as much as class tiers got clowned on in 3.5, a high level two-handed fightervever *actually* being allowed to full attack in melee has pretty high damage output, if built competently (even just vanilla competently, not cheesy or obscure feats). He should be able to really put the hurt on Calder if he can just go to town for a round or two.

The comic blends some of the straight crunch from the game with the messier realities of a situation. Roy still throwing his sword is possibly the result of being unable to realistically approach in this round after retreating a bit from the flame breath, as it appears like Calder is actively trying to take back off.

[danielxcutter]

Also, using ranged attacks means not being in full attack range of a dragon. True dragons are blenders.