Concentration for Martials

[diplomancer]

This thought just occurred to me talking to Segev in the Hex thread: since all builds are encouraged to use their "Concentration slot" on something, this is an unused design space for martials. What do you guys think? Would it be a good idea to give Martials class features that use the Concentration slot (maybe at the subclass level, so those subclasses that get spells don't get sad)? And what good features could there be that would fit the martial fantasy, the themes of each class, but could also be considered something that would require "concentrating"?

[Psyren]

The main suggestion I've seen is that they can trade in their concentration for a bonus attunement slot. Whether this attunement can be lost by breaking your concentration would be up to the DM, but for ease of play I would recommend not.

[Darth Credence]

If I were to have concentration effects for martials, I would probably go with them concentrating to get some bonuses in combat from how they are fighting. I have given this absolutely 0 thought before now, but what if martials could use concentration to switch up their fighting style? Base fighting style is free because that's what they do normally, but if they focus on their style they can switch that to something else that may be useful in the situation?

Or perhaps concentrating on defense or offense specifically - when concentrating, you could either take a +2AC/-5 to hit or the reverse (numbers pulled from the nether), representing that you are focusing your efforts on one or the other.

Maybe an archer could concentrate on a target, and as long as they focus on that target they get advantage on attacks. Maybe you have to make a hit first to focus so it matters when concentration is broken.

I could see a monk concentrating into a state that lets them dodge pretty much everything. Concentrate and give up attacking and you get a +10 to AC or something.

Or a different path - maybe you can concentrate on detecting hidden enemies, keeping all of your senses tuned to doing so, and you prevent anyone from hiding from you, or maybe just get a +5 to perception (including passive).

Or concentrating on specific saves - if you are concentrating on dodging, you get a bonus to Dex saves, or if you are concentrating mental focus you get a bonus on Wis saves. This may help with the other thread about how higher-level martials fail saves like that all the time.

I'm going to stop there, because I like that last one quite a bit, and need to mull it over more. Probably going to go to homebrew and workshop it.

[stoutstien]

The fact the concentration is looked at like a slot to be filled means it probably not something you want to build off of the begin with.

[JLandan]

Whatever is used for the "concentration slot", remember, Barbarians can't do it while Raging, Druids can't start doing it while in Wildshape, no gish can do it while holding a smite spell, and rangers can't do it while using Favored Foe.

My opinion is that if this feature is open to any class, it must be open to use for casters while not otherwise concentrating. If it is only open to martial classes, how does it work with multiclass into casters?

Some things to consider.

[Kane0]

The main suggestion I've seen is that they can trade in their concentration for a bonus attunement slot. Whether this attunement can be lost by breaking your concentration would be up to the DM, but for ease of play I would recommend not.

Works for me

[KorvinStarmast]

The main suggestion I've seen is that they can trade in their concentration for a bonus attunement slot. Whether this attunement can be lost by breaking your concentration would be up to the DM, but for ease of play I would recommend not.

While I think that the general idea of concentration for pure martials is a poor one, I like your idea on this.

[Psyren]

Whatever is used for the "concentration slot", remember, Barbarians can't do it while Raging, Druids can't start doing it while in Wildshape, no gish can do it while holding a smite spell, and rangers can't do it while using Favored Foe.

My opinion is that if this feature is open to any class, it must be open to use for casters while not otherwise concentrating. If it is only open to martial classes, how does it work with multiclass into casters?

Some things to consider.

Indeed, if the "4th slot" conflicts with normal concentration, then it becomes more of a tradeoff for gishes and casters than it is for pure martials. (I think some folks would consider that a feature rather than a bug.)

The fact the concentration is looked at like a slot to be filled means it probably not something you want to build off of the begin with.

I think it's only natural to think that way honestly. For many, it's fun to feel like they've maximized every "slot" on their characters - a productive use for every action/BA/reaction, every attunement slot filled, concentrating on something etc.

For example, on archery builds I'm constantly trying to figure out good uses for my reaction since I'm probably not going to be using OA or Ready very often.

[stoutstien]

Indeed, if the "4th slot" conflicts with normal concentration, then it becomes more of a tradeoff for gishes and casters than it is for pure martials. (I think some folks would consider that a feature rather than a bug.)



I think it's only natural to think that way honestly. For many, it's fun to feel like they've maximized every "slot" on their characters - a productive use for every action/BA/reaction, every attunement slot filled, concentrating on something etc.

For example, on archery builds I'm constantly trying to figure out good uses for my reaction since I'm probably not going to be using OA or Ready very often.

Eh. The idea that building PCs is more impactful to the outcome than playing them already bothers me, so treating the action economy like a bingo card rubs me wrong.

Not like they can actually get opportunity cost right so the PC building mini game is not even all that interesting to begin with. Funny enough to was better with it was just the PHB with no optional rules.

[Skrum]

Whatever is used for the "concentration slot", remember, Barbarians can't do it while Raging, Druids can't start doing it while in Wildshape, no gish can do it while holding a smite spell, and rangers can't do it while using Favored Foe.

My opinion is that if this feature is open to any class, it must be open to use for casters while not otherwise concentrating. If it is only open to martial classes, how does it work with multiclass into casters?

Some things to consider.

The entire point of this thread is that casters get this whole resource, concentration, that fighters, barbs, monks, and rogues don't get the benefit of using. You responding to spitballed suggestions with "well it's only fair if casters also get this!!!" is entirely missing the point - they already get to do this! They have spells with insane ongoing effects such that the wizard or cleric or whoever dropping concentration might literally swing the battle against the players. Why would they even *want* more ways to use concentration.

[GeneralVryth]

It's hilarious concentration is being thought of a resource, when its whole reason for being is to limit the number of ongoing effects spell casters can have active.

That said I do like the idea of trading the ability to concentrate for another attunement slot. Martials should have more of those, so it plays nicely in to it. I would phrase it as part of attuning that 4th item any character forfeits their ability to concentrate on a spell until they break attunements to the point they are back down to 3 (or whatever other limit they have). So if you are using your concentration for attunement it's not even an option to cast a concentration spell (and forfeiting the attunement in the process).

[Dr.Samurai]

A mechanic like this could be used to elevate martials into less mundane territories as well. You can call it Focus or something along those lines if you want to differentiate it.

I like the idea of stepping into forms or stances so long as you have Focus or Concentration, and while within those Stances/Forms you can do certain things.

[Psyren]

It's hilarious concentration is being thought of a resource, when its whole reason for being is to limit the number of ongoing effects spell casters can have active.

I mean, a game element can be both a resource and a constraint. See also spell slots, or attunement slots for that matter.

Eh. The idea that building PCs is more impactful to the outcome than playing them already bothers me, so treating the action economy like a bingo card rubs me wrong.

These two (building PCs and playing PCs) are not at odds with one another though, they both matter. Presenting them in such an either/or fashion is like... a weird version of Stormwind.

Not like they can actually get opportunity cost right so the PC building mini game is not even all that interesting to begin with. Funny enough to was better with it was just the PHB with no optional rules.

Not one but two personal opinions presented as objective fact. Interesting.

A mechanic like this could be used to elevate martials into less mundane territories as well. You can call it Focus or something along those lines if you want to differentiate it.

I like the idea of stepping into forms or stances so long as you have Focus or Concentration, and while within those Stances/Forms you can do certain things.

I'd be fine with martial concentration-duration buffs. If someone ever gets around to a 5e version of ToB I could see Stances using it.

The one concern I would have is that concentration is also meant as a way to discourage casters from being hit; and sure, no PC really wants to be hit, but martials (especially "tanks") do have a slightly different incentive structure in that regard.

[GeneralVryth]

I mean, a game element can be both a resource and a constraint. See also spell slots, or attunement slots for that matter.

Of course, at its root optimization is about getting the highest value of something (in this case a nebulous power), with a given set of constraints. It's still funny (in a disheartening kind of way). Optimization can be taken too far, and creating mechanics catering to extreme optimization is dangerous territory for a TTRPG.

I can completely imagine martial applications for concentration, and plenty of them make sense in character as well. So on that level it doesn't bother me. But the motivation of just trying to maximize a mechanical constraint is off putting.

[Dr.Samurai]

Of course, at its root optimization is about getting the highest value of something (in this case a nebulous power), with a given set of constraints. It's still funny (in a disheartening kind of way). Optimization can be taken too far, and creating mechanics catering to extreme optimization is dangerous territory for a TTRPG.

I can completely imagine martial applications for concentration, and plenty of them make sense in character as well. So on that level it doesn't bother me. But the motivation of just trying to maximize a mechanical constraint is off putting.

I get this. And it sort of jives with Psyren's point that martials with a concentration check are going to be making Con saves practically every round, and likely multiple saves each round, and losing whatever benefit they have pretty quickly.

Sort of demonstrates how the mechanic was built for something else and wouldn't slot easily into "resource" territory.

[Luccan]

If you give them a ring of spell storing and a party member (or NPC) willing to charge it, they can use some Concentration spells

[stoutstien]

I mean, a game element can be both a resource and a constraint. See also spell slots, or attunement slots for that matter.



These two (building PCs and playing PCs) are not at odds with one another though, they both matter. Presenting them in such an either/or fashion is like... a weird version of Stormwind.



Not one but two personal opinions presented as objective fact. Interesting.



I'd be fine with martial concentration-duration buffs. If someone ever gets around to a 5e version of ToB I could see Stances using it.

The one concern I would have is that concentration is also meant as a way to discourage casters from being hit; and sure, no PC really wants to be hit, but martials (especially "tanks") do have a slightly different incentive structure in that regard.

Unfortunately as a broad stroke casters are better taking, and more importantly avoiding, hits already so concentration is mostly a contingency. Too bad you can also bulletproof really that cheaply as well.

The whole paradigm of the guy in front taking the hits for the guy in back breaks down when the guy in back is perfectly okay with taking the hits.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sort of demonstrates how the mechanic was built for something else and wouldn't slot easily into "resource" territory.

They have already done something like "stances" for the Rune Knight in Tasha's. The "get large" ability lasts a minute, no concentration. the "resistant to BPS from Hill Giant rune (level 7) lasts for a minute. No concentration.

[Dr.Samurai]

They have already done something like "stances" for the Rune Knight in Tasha's. The "get large" ability lasts a minute, no concentration. the "resistant to BPS from Hill Giant rune (level 7) lasts for a minute. No concentration.

*grumbles about how they handed over the barbarian rage (advantage on Strength checks/saves, resistance to damage, bonus damage on hit) to the fighter*

[Saelethil]

I would consider Rage to be a powerful ability that “uses” the concentration slot. It wouldn’t be a bad idea for there to be more martial options that require “concentration” which can’t be broken by taking damage. More powerful ones would have limited uses but I could imagine a lot that could have unlimited uses since they could only have one active at any given time.

[Melil12]

“Stances” that require concentration … I have to re read barbarian

[stoutstien]

I would consider Rage to be a powerful ability that “uses” the concentration slot. It wouldn’t be a bad idea for there to be more martial options that require “concentration” which can’t be broken by taking damage. More powerful ones would have limited uses but I could imagine a lot that could have unlimited uses since they could only have one active at any given time.

Rage doesn't use concentration as much as just being incompatible with spell casting as a whole. The issue is the cost of that is grossly over budget.

If someone cannot use spells then they shouldn't also be stuck dealing mediocre damage and hoping they don't get ignored or just CCed out of the equation. Even the resistance portion is pretty meh once you start shopping around for different options. Is pretty amazing early on but falls off rapidly just when you'd assume it would actually be the most impactful.

[Skrum]

If someone cannot use spells then they shouldn't also be stuck dealing mediocre damage and hoping they don't get ignored or just CCed out of the equation. Even the resistance portion is pretty meh once you start shopping around for different options. Is pretty amazing early on but falls off rapidly just when you'd assume it would actually be the most impactful.

My current character is a tiefling barb with infernal constitution and a ring of necrotic resist. He's got resist to poison, cold, fire, and necrotic at all times. It's a huge a factor in his durability; resist to b, p, and s is good, but elemental damage becomes way too common outside of t1 for basic rage to be barb's only method of defense.

*grumbles about how they handed over the barbarian rage (advantage on Strength checks/saves, resistance to damage, bonus damage on hit) to the fighter*

Fundamental problem of martials, in a nutshell. They're only allowed to do a handful of things, so they necessarily step on each other's toes while simultaneously being constricted on growth.

Honestly, fighter, monk, and barb probably shouldn't be different classes. Barb and monk are representations of two common warrior tropes...fighter is "everything that isn't barb or monk." It's pretty silly.

[Rerem115]

Some of LaserLlama's work touches on this. They've done some class overhauls, and a lot of their martial options basically get a variant of Battlemaster maneuvers as the unifying martial mechanic, with different classes getting different maneuvers. Some of the options for Fighters essentially replicate spells that recharge on a short rest—such as spending a die to non-magically gain the benefits of Haste—and may require concentration.

Other 'maneuvers' don't, but they generally don't have as much impact, since they're not concerned with the risk/reward aspect of managing concentration

[Pex]

It looks good on paper, but I think it will fail in practice because generally part of the martial's job is to get hit and get hit a lot. He will fail the concentration check. Not necessarily the first or second time he's hit, but with many monsters having two attacks at minimum concentration will be broken by round 2, 3 if lucky.

If you still like the idea of this virtual resource slot, call it something else that uses a different mechanic. Call it "stance". This allows raging barbarians to have it. You can't stance and concentrate at the same time, and you get a stance check when you are frightened, grappled, restrained, tripped, shoved, or otherwise forced to move against your will. Being paralyzed or incapacitated breaks a stance. You can enter a stance as a bonus action in combat and out of combat just go into it.

What benefit you get from a stance and if you can have choices of stances to be in (only one stance at a time) is left to the reader.

[Saelethil]

Rage doesn't use concentration as much as just being incompatible with spell casting as a whole. The issue is the cost of that is grossly over budget.

I mean, sure. It isn’t actually using concentration but they are activating an ongoing effect that removes their ability to concentrate which is what I imagine other martial “concentration” features would do unless we want to just give them actual spells (which I’m against for the most part). Sure it removes the ability to cast spells while it’s active, which might be too restrictive, but Martials should be using weapons instead of spells most of the time anyway.

If someone cannot use spells then they shouldn't also be stuck dealing mediocre damage and hoping they don't get ignored or just CCed out of the equation. Even the resistance portion is pretty meh once you start shopping around for different options. Is pretty amazing early on but falls off rapidly just when you'd assume it would actually be the most impactful.

I’ve only briefly played a barbarian above level 7 so I can’t speak to their play-feel but I’m all for buffing barbarians both in and out of rage.

[Psyren]

Unfortunately as a broad stroke casters are better taking, and more importantly avoiding, hits already so concentration is mostly a contingency. Too bad you can also bulletproof really that cheaply as well.

The whole paradigm of the guy in front taking the hits for the guy in back breaks down when the guy in back is perfectly okay with taking the hits.

1) I'd argue that the defenses of the "guy in the back" being consistently higher than those of the "guy in the front" is more of a high-op table thing. It's not unheard of by any means, but definitely less common for most of the playerbase than you imply.

2) If caster defenses were so high and therefore concentration were as trivial to protect as you suggest, I don't think we'd see as many caster builds bending over backwards to grab Resilient Con or War Caster or starting with a level in Fighter/Artificer/Sorcerer as we do. In actual play at most tables, concentration breaks all the time, and would do so even more readily if they were on the front line, didn't build to protect their concentration as much as possible, or both.

Fundamental problem of martials, in a nutshell. They're only allowed to do a handful of things, so they necessarily step on each other's toes while simultaneously being constricted on growth.

Honestly, fighter, monk, and barb probably shouldn't be different classes. Barb and monk are representations of two common warrior tropes...fighter is "everything that isn't barb or monk." It's pretty silly.

This isn't just a martial thing though, any class/subclass system will end up with overlap given enough time. Nature Clerics step on Druids' toes, Clockwork Sorcerer steps on Abjurer Wizard's toes, Divine Soul steps on Cleric's toes and so on. "This Fighter subclass gets a rage-like feature" isn't actually a problem, it's an intended benefit of the system.

And regarding the refrain of "Barbarians should be a subset of Fighter" and all the rest - while I agree they could do that, I continue to be glad they didn't.

[Theodoxus]

I'm with Pex - call it something else, but don't let them stack. Martials might have Stance, or Focus - and it should state "While in a Stance..." or "While Focusing..." "you can't Concentrate on a Spell. Likewise, when Concentrating on a Spell, you can't benefit from an ability that requires being in [Focus] or [a Stance]."

This would allow something like Stances (especially if they're tiered) to be picked up via a feat, but not allow casters to get both benefits simultaneously (something a non-magical martial wouldn't have access to). Then, like Magic Initiate, if a caster wants a basic Stance, they can grab the feat, just like an otherwise non-magical martial can take MI for a bit of expanded abilities. And higher level Stances are out of reach of 'mere' casters; allowing for stronger options at higher levels.

[Dr.Samurai]

*looks at the 5E landscape*

Yeah, I think we can introduce a sub-system that says "If you can cast spells from a class feature or feat, you cannot make use of this feature."

Shouldn't break anything, except maybe caster entitlement .

[Kane0]

*looks at the 5E landscape*

Yeah, I think we can introduce a sub-system that says "If you can cast spells from a class feature or feat, you cannot make use of this feature."

Shouldn't break anything, except maybe caster entitlement .

Erm, what about races that get like, a cantrip?