Using a red dragon as working ox

[AMFV]

The good aligned deities that signed the Pact Primeval with Asmodeus thought differently, or so it appears.

Actually their motivation wasn't to punish the evil creatures but to encourage the good creatures to be good. Also the Pact Primeval was basically a swindle.

It would be very bad, but less bad than what those monsters did to each and every of their victims.

Not really actually. And in this case we're talking about a creature that was captured before it ever fully matured.

Actually, the overwhelming majority of ancient cultures enthusiastically endorsed the public torture of enemies of the states and miscreants, from scaphism in ancient Persia to death by thousand cuts in imperial China, to crucifixion in Rome.

D&D isn't based on those cultures. Because their sensibilities would be a lot of an issue.

Okay, let's leave out the incongruous statements on inborn morality and focus purely on this as a question of mechanical possibility. The pattern there has been pretty consistent: someone lists a possible way for the dragon to affect the world and you say 'well what if we add more or better restraints'. So let's carry that one to its natural conclusion real quick:.

There's actually an even easier way for our Red Dragon to deal with this. We've allowed him to move so he can initiate martial maneuvers. Martial Study has plenty of options for this. All the Dragon needs is the ability to learn 2nd Level Maneuvers. Take Martial Study (Stone Dragon) Twice pick up any one maneuver and then take Mountain Hammer, then if you are able to move at all you can break any shackles. You can do this as a Wyrmling. The other option is to take Shadow Jaunt (which has no actual requirements) so you can snag that easily enough and teleport away! So you can escape as a Wyrmling Red Dragon

[Unoriginal]

Actually their motivation wasn't to punish the evil creatures but to encourage the good creatures to be good. Also the Pact Primeval was basically a swindle.

Also the Pact Primeval is an insulting addition to the lore that got largely ignored in editions that aren't 4e (which was the edition where Asmodeus was put on a weird "he's the strongest and smartest" pedestal for some reason).

I'm eternally glad it was retconned in 5e lore as early as the PHB (which made clear good deities didn't use anything at all to force people into being "good").

[Bohandas]

D&D isn't based on those cultures. Because their sensibilities would be a lot of an issue.

As far as I can tell D&D is based on Medieval Times Dinner & Tournament

[AMFV]

Also the Pact Primeval is an insulting addition to the lore that got largely ignored in editions that aren't 4e (which was the edition where Asmodeus was put on a weird "he's the strongest and smartest" pedestal for some reason).

I'm eternally glad it was retconned in 5e lore as early as the PHB (which made clear good deities didn't use anything at all to force people into being "good").

I like the idea of it as kind of a stopgap against Chaos. When I used that in lore I just generally say that the details of it aren't known to people. So some religious organizations might say that it was to "scare people into being good" Clerics of St. Cuthbert I'm looking at you. But nobody really knows the specifics except that it was intended to stop the spread of the abyss.

As far as I can tell D&D is based on Medieval Times Dinner & Tournament

That sounds about right!



Edit: I'm pretty sure I've ran games for this guy more than a few times.

[Buufreak]

Edit: I'm pretty sure I've ran games for this guy more than a few times.

SNL guy, or OP?

[AMFV]

SNL guy, or OP?

The SNL Guy

"My son murdered"

"Buuut he wasn't.."

[Crake]

I think we need a bit more clarity on what you mean by "mundane means". Because a level 20 fighter with no magic items is technically "mundane means".

You are, for example, completely ignoring the part of how you're gonna go about mutilating this red dragon without being eviscerated. Red dragons care for their eggs. Maybe not the wyrmlings that hatch from said eggs, but the eggs themselves are protected, as per the draconomicon:

"After mating, the younger dragon is usually left to guard the eggs. Most red wyrmlings are left to fend for themselves. Occasionally, two parents of about equal age mate and tend their young together."

So, you're very unlikely to get a red dragon egg via mundane means and live to talk about it, meaning you cant hatch the egg early and catch the wyrmling while it's vulnerable, hatching it before it's ready, in order to mutilate it before it is able to defend itself (and even if you could manage such a thing, you'd 9/10 induce system shock from the early hatching and mutilation and it would die before maturing)

On the other hand, if you're trying to capture a live wyrmling via mundane means, you're almost certainly doomed to failure. 40ft movement and 150ft fly speed means it's easily able to escape if it sees a fight going against it's favour, 17 strength, 1d8 bite, and 1d6 claws means this is like a rabid black bear on steroids, that is just as smart as you, and probably as tough as ten of your best men, while simultaneously being probably just as armored as you are purely naturally (AC16 = scale male + heavy shield).

And that's not even including the fact that a) it's probably hanging out in environments that you can't survive in, and b) it can probably mow down your whole team with one breath weapon (average 11 damage on it's 2d10 breath weapon, even on a save, 5 damage will kill the average level 1 warrior, expert, aristocrat, or level 2 commoner).

But a lot of this is solved by just being significantly higher level than the dragon in question, so again, it comes back around to: what do you mean by "mundane means".

[awa]

On the other hand, if you're trying to capture a live wyrmling via .

this feels related to his other thread how much does it cost to have a red dragon wyrmling kidnapped

[Crake]

this feels related to his other thread how much does it cost to have a red dragon wyrmling kidnapped

Probably, realistically they should be merged threads.

[Samael Morgenst]

To be honest, no, the intent was different.

The dragonegg was for a third party content that I found about alchemically prepared dragonegg eggnog granting permanent sorcerous powers.

[Remuko]

Probably, realistically they should be merged threads.

it feels like half the front page are all posts from this guy tbh

[Vaern]

A red dragon is more likely to respond well to positive reinforcement. If you detooth it, declaw it, and clip its wings, it's eventually going to turn on your and kill you. If you instead offer it a steady diet of insubordinate slaves, criminals, and prisoners of war in exchange for manual labor that's honestly probably trivial work for it anyway, it'll probably do whatever you ask and, more importantly, not try to murder you at the first opportunity it gets. That's how you get yourself a Themberchaud.

[Pugwampy]

I suggest get to lvl 20 first before you try to force a dragon to do your menial tasks

[Maat Mons]

I feel like a 20th level character has better ways of getting farmwork done. Servant Horde gives 2d6+15 Unseen Servants for 20 hours per casting, using a 3rd level slot. Regal Procession gives 20 Mounts for 40 hors per casting, also using a 3rd level slot.

[pabelfly]

I feel like a 20th level character has better ways of getting farmwork done. Servant Horde gives 2d6+15 Unseen Servants for 20 hours per casting, using a 3rd level slot. Regal Procession gives 20 Mounts for 40 hors per casting, also using a 3rd level slot.

I mean, if we're talking solely about getting labour done, you could just pay sme peasants to do the work. One silver piece per day gets you an untrained hireling working for you, and 8GP gets you a mule or donkey if you need something to pull a plow. Even at level 2 that's a trivial portion of your wealth. Having a red dragon to do this instead is to make a statement, but I'm really not sure OP is sending the statement he wants to be sending by doing this.

[Remuko]

That's how you get yourself a Themberchaud.

I loved him in the D&D movie! Chonky Dragon!

[Pugwampy]

I mean, if we're talking solely about getting labour done, you could just pay sme peasants to do the work. One silver piece per day gets you an untrained hireling working for you, and 8GP gets you a mule or donkey if you need something to pull a plow. Even at level 2 that's a trivial portion of your wealth. Having a red dragon to do this instead is to make a statement, but I'm really not sure OP is sending the statement he wants to be sending by doing this.

Or perhaps buy an ox ?

[AvatarVecna]

I feel like a 20th level character has better ways of getting farmwork done. Servant Horde gives 2d6+15 Unseen Servants for 20 hours per casting, using a 3rd level slot. Regal Procession gives 20 Mounts for 40 hors per casting, also using a 3rd level slot.

You're forgetting that the manual labor is secondary. The primary point is being cruel to an Evil creature. It's about demeaning a thinking feeling creature you don't like to being little more than a beast of burden, crippling it specifically to make it's life worse, as punishment for being such a bad person itself.